I recently made a post on the Live/Neutral crossed wiring I found on a
kitchen socket. I am awaiting on a socket tester before I carry on to
correct the socket if need be.

Today I was looking at another socket which has it's own seperate circuit
back to the fusebox and is also located in the kitchen but on the opposite
side. The earth wire doesn't go back to the fusebox but to a copper pipe. I
followed the pipe and found another earth connector further along where the
earth wire connects to another socket. This socket belongs to a 2nd
circuit which has an earth cable going back to the fusebox.

My question is, should each circuit have an earth cable go back to the
consumer fusebox or can it be done like above?

On 8 Feb 2005 19:21:30 GMT, Pedge strung together
this:

My question is, should each circuit have an earth cable go back to the
consumer fusebox or can it be done like above?

I think it's time you call in the pro's. If you have to ask that
question you shouldn't be touching the electrics.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

In article ,
Pedge writes:
I recently made a post on the Live/Neutral crossed wiring I found on a
kitchen socket. I am awaiting on a socket tester before I carry on to
correct the socket if need be.

Today I was looking at another socket which has it's own seperate circuit
back to the fusebox and is also located in the kitchen but on the opposite
side. The earth wire doesn't go back to the fusebox but to a copper pipe. I
followed the pipe and found another earth connector further along where the
earth wire connects to another socket. This socket belongs to a 2nd
circuit which has an earth cable going back to the fusebox.

My question is, should each circuit have an earth cable go back to the
consumer fusebox

Yes.

or can it be done like above?

It's beginning to sound like you need a rewire for at least part
of your house. At least, it all needs a proper inspection.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 19:21:30 +0000, Pedge wrote:

I recently made a post on the Live/Neutral crossed wiring I found on a
kitchen socket. I am awaiting on a socket tester before I carry on to
correct the socket if need be.

Today I was looking at another socket which has it's own seperate circuit
back to the fusebox and is also located in the kitchen but on the opposite
side. The earth wire doesn't go back to the fusebox but to a copper pipe.
I followed the pipe and found another earth connector further along where
the earth wire connects to another socket. This socket belongs to a 2nd
circuit which has an earth cable going back to the fusebox.

My question is, should each circuit have an earth cable go back to the
consumer fusebox or can it be done like above?

That sounds rather odd. Yes, earths would normally be provided as
part of the cable feeding that circuit in a domestic setup.

Do you mean that the cable feeding that socket is *not* twin+earth
or do you mean it is twin+earth but for some bizarre reason the earth core
is not used?

The wire going to the pipe is probably intended to be bonding. It must
not be the primary means of earthing a socket[1]. A reason why that would
be bad:

Suppose that someone replaces a bit of pipe upstream of your earth bond
with plastic pipe. Your earth is now gone. Now your appliance plugged in
that socket develops a fault - bing, 240V on the remaining copper pipe,
sink etc.

So you're in a worse position than if you had no earth at all.

That's just one of a million reasons it's bad.

Are you sure that there isn't another earth wire in there from the cable?

I would agree with Lurch so some extent - it sounds like your house has a
few oddities which may not be very safe. I would recommend at least having
an inspection done (proper one, with earth/insulation/RCD tests). That
will also pick up some things that you can't see by eye.

Try your electricity supply company - I used Seeboard for one such test +
cert when I sold my flat. 18 months ago, about 120 quid or so.

Tim

[1] Although the Seeboard appointed inspector did note in the
exceptions box that I hadn't got full 16th edition compliance (well, I
wouldn't, flat was built to the 15th) in that one lighting pull switch,
all plastic, did not have an earth present. He suggested I bonded one to
the nearby water pipe. Needless to say I didn't bother.

Tim S wrote in
news
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 19:21:30 +0000, Pedge wrote:

I recently made a post on the Live/Neutral crossed wiring I found on
a kitchen socket. I am awaiting on a socket tester before I carry on
to correct the socket if need be.

Today I was looking at another socket which has it's own seperate
circuit back to the fusebox and is also located in the kitchen but on
the opposite side. The earth wire doesn't go back to the fusebox but
to a copper pipe. I followed the pipe and found another earth
connector further along where the earth wire connects to another
socket. This socket belongs to a 2nd circuit which has an earth cable
going back to the fusebox.

My question is, should each circuit have an earth cable go back to
the consumer fusebox or can it be done like above?

That sounds rather odd. Yes, earths would normally be provided as
part of the cable feeding that circuit in a domestic setup.

Do you mean that the cable feeding that socket is *not* twin+earth
or do you mean it is twin+earth but for some bizarre reason the earth
core is not used?

The wire going to the pipe is probably intended to be bonding. It must
not be the primary means of earthing a socket[1]. A reason why that
would be bad:

Suppose that someone replaces a bit of pipe upstream of your earth
bond with plastic pipe. Your earth is now gone. Now your appliance
plugged in that socket develops a fault - bing, 240V on the remaining
copper pipe, sink etc.

So you're in a worse position than if you had no earth at all.

That's just one of a million reasons it's bad.

Are you sure that there isn't another earth wire in there from the
cable?

I would agree with Lurch so some extent - it sounds like your house
has a few oddities which may not be very safe. I would recommend at
least having an inspection done (proper one, with earth/insulation/RCD
tests). That will also pick up some things that you can't see by eye.

Try your electricity supply company - I used Seeboard for one such
test + cert when I sold my flat. 18 months ago, about 120 quid or so.

Tim

[1] Although the Seeboard appointed inspector did note in the
exceptions box that I hadn't got full 16th edition compliance (well, I
wouldn't, flat was built to the 15th) in that one lighting pull
switch, all plastic, did not have an earth present. He suggested I
bonded one to the nearby water pipe. Needless to say I didn't bother.


Thanks for all your responses. I'm astounded to say the least. My
property is a 1930's council block with surface wiring throughout. The
wiring itself is loose - loose being strands of 2.5mm black + red +
yellow/green cables running through surface conduit. Nothing in white
sheathing.

What I have is a black and red cable running from the socket to the
fusebox and then the earth cable on its own connecting to the copper pipe
(bonding). This is a radial circuit and not ring.

I am strongly thinking of rewiring this keeping it radial and run an
earth back to the fusebox.

I own the property so getting the local authority contractors back to
rectify it would be difficult.

Others have noted the dangers with your existing wiring.
One additional point. It is safety ground - not earth ground
- that connects a wall receptacle to breaker box. A
fundamental difference between the two grounds is that safety
ground must connect back to breaker box to trip a circuit
breaker. Pipes are not considered safe enough nor are
intended to perform that function. Dumping electricity into
pipes is considered dangerous especially to a person in the
tub.

Earth ground is a connection between the central point of
that safety ground system and earth. Connecting a wall
receptacle to earth ground does not provide the necessary
human protection that safety ground must provide.

Keep doing as you are doing. Find all these anomalies so
that the electrician can resolve them the first time. Best to
find them and have them inspected by the electrician before he
gets there and as soon as possible.

Pedge wrote:
I recently made a post on the Live/Neutral crossed wiring I found on a
kitchen socket. I am awaiting on a socket tester before I carry on to
correct the socket if need be.

Today I was looking at another socket which has it's own seperate
circuit back to the fusebox and is also located in the kitchen but
on the opposite side. The earth wire doesn't go back to the fusebox
but to a copper pipe. I followed the pipe and found another earth
connector further along where the earth wire connects to another
socket. This socket belongs to a 2nd circuit which has an earth
cable going back to the fusebox.

My question is, should each circuit have an earth cable go back
to the consumer fusebox or can it be done like above?

In article ,
Pedge wrote:
Today I was looking at another socket which has it's own seperate
circuit back to the fusebox and is also located in the kitchen but on
the opposite side. The earth wire doesn't go back to the fusebox but to
a copper pipe. I followed the pipe and found another earth connector
further along where the earth wire connects to another socket. This
socket belongs to a 2nd circuit which has an earth cable going back to
the fusebox.

Sounds like you have a bodger's paradise. In this case I'd say you need to
get a pro in, and be prepared for the cost of a total re-wire.

--
*Ever stop to think and forget to start again?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:14:58 +0000, Pedge wrote:

Thanks for all your responses. I'm astounded to say the least. My property
is a 1930's council block with surface wiring throughout. The wiring
itself is loose - loose being strands of 2.5mm black + red + yellow/green
cables running through surface conduit. Nothing in white sheathing.

More of an "industrial" style of installation. Nothing wrong with that
in itself.


What I have is a black and red cable running from the socket to the
fusebox and then the earth cable on its own connecting to the copper
pipe (bonding). This is a radial circuit and not ring.

Ah. Metal conduit by any chance? It's not impossible that the earth could
have been provisioned via the conduit, in which case you *might* be OK,
*provided* the stuff is still good.

That electrical test mentioned would measure that.

These days, metal conduit is usually the heavy thick wall stuff, with
threaded screw joints to ensure solid connectivity.

The other (old) thin-wall push-fit stuff is difficult to maintain an earth
on (let alone through). I don't think trying to reuse thin wall conduit
would be permissable (never get a consistent earth on it), thick wall
might be useable but shouldn't be rusty (damage cables) and needs to able
to maintain a good earth for it's own benefit.


I am strongly thinking of rewiring this keeping it radial and run an earth
back to the fusebox.

I own the property so getting the local authority contractors back to
rectify it would be difficult.

As an unqualified DIYer myself, I would recommend a few things (mostly
being cautious):

1) Contract out what you don't feel 100% confident with - it's no great
shame.

2) With what's left, I strongly recommend these books:

http://tinyurl.com/6mgmb
IEE Wiring regs (latest, brown cover, don't be cheap and buy an out of
date one off ebay)

http://tinyurl.com/6tqd3
Electricians Guide to IEE Regs by John Whitfield

The latter is excellent - examples of typical circuits, calculations etc.
Well worth it.

If you rewire, put 200 quid or so aside up front and promise yourself that
you will have an inspection done when you finish. If you followed Part P
then you're going to be inspected anyway. Installation inspections are
quite fussy (but no more than they should be) so it's something to aspire
to, to have one's work passed without comment.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote in
news
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:14:58 +0000, Pedge wrote:

Thanks for all your responses. I'm astounded to say the least. My
property is a 1930's council block with surface wiring throughout.
The wiring itself is loose - loose being strands of 2.5mm black + red
+ yellow/green cables running through surface conduit. Nothing in
white sheathing.

More of an "industrial" style of installation. Nothing wrong with that
in itself.


What I have is a black and red cable running from the socket to the
fusebox and then the earth cable on its own connecting to the copper
pipe (bonding). This is a radial circuit and not ring.

Ah. Metal conduit by any chance? It's not impossible that the earth
could have been provisioned via the conduit, in which case you *might*
be OK, *provided* the stuff is still good.

That electrical test mentioned would measure that.

These days, metal conduit is usually the heavy thick wall stuff, with
threaded screw joints to ensure solid connectivity.

The other (old) thin-wall push-fit stuff is difficult to maintain an
earth on (let alone through). I don't think trying to reuse thin wall
conduit would be permissable (never get a consistent earth on it),
thick wall might be useable but shouldn't be rusty (damage cables) and
needs to able to maintain a good earth for it's own benefit.


I am strongly thinking of rewiring this keeping it radial and run an
earth back to the fusebox.

I own the property so getting the local authority contractors back to
rectify it would be difficult.

As an unqualified DIYer myself, I would recommend a few things (mostly
being cautious):

1) Contract out what you don't feel 100% confident with - it's no
great shame.

2) With what's left, I strongly recommend these books:

http://tinyurl.com/6mgmb
IEE Wiring regs (latest, brown cover, don't be cheap and buy an out of
date one off ebay)

http://tinyurl.com/6tqd3
Electricians Guide to IEE Regs by John Whitfield

The latter is excellent - examples of typical circuits, calculations
etc. Well worth it.

If you rewire, put 200 quid or so aside up front and promise yourself
that you will have an inspection done when you finish. If you followed
Part P then you're going to be inspected anyway. Installation
inspections are quite fussy (but no more than they should be) so it's
something to aspire to, to have one's work passed without comment.

Cheers

Tim


Tim, the conduit is plastic running horizontally & vertically along the
walls - bloody eyesore!

Will definately look into those books. Cheers again