PLease *god* (or uk-diy) help me.

I need a joiner and have tried for w e e k s to find one.. and have
failed.

What's going on??? Where are the local tradespeople or failing that,
all the predicted new ex-eastern block trades-people.. ????

I phoned 8 today;

1) from poster at work - have left messages 2wice before, again no
answer, left message.

2) recommended by friend - have left message before, again no answer,
left message.

3) recommended by (kitchen extension last year - all went great)
builder and roofer - million messages, left another.

4) from yell.com dead number, found web site with same dead number,
emailed advertised email address..

5) from yell.com - can't do anything for 3 months

6) from yell.com - died 1.5 years ago, relative/friend distressed at
call.

7) Answering machine, left message.

8) ditto

Is it me??

I've (mostly) never even got as far as explaining what I need. Are
domestic jobs just not even worth thinking about nowasdays? I need
quite a few things done despite doing lots DIY, I just don't have the
energy or expertise to do everything. I thought collecting them
together might help.

Am I the only one??

Maybe I should get a new bathroom or something just to get someone
on-site, then maybe imprison joiner in back room before agreeing fair
price for work + release.

One of the things we need fixing is our front door which may invalidate
insurance. If we're burgled in the near future, I may become first
joiner-specific serial killer.

I'm in Newcastle upon Tyne.

Free bespoke, baked-to-order, family sized (8"), pork pie made from
delicious rare breed pork from renowned Northumberlad farm butcher (New
Barns), for first joiner to help me out (i.e. do the work for going
rate).

Any tips much appreciated. Please don't use unsimpi email address, I
don't check it.

Simpi.

wrote in message
ups.com...
PLease *god* (or uk-diy) help me.
snip

Is it me??

No


I've (mostly) never even got as far as explaining what I need. Are
domestic jobs just not even worth thinking about nowasdays?

No, you are correct, they aren't. End of story, I'm afraid.

I was talking to my builder after he finished ny extension. He's a small
builder and had 10 jobs on the go and another 20 on his desk to price up. He
can't do them all - what's going to go in the bin - the big ones or the
small ones? The tradespeople that remain are usually aligned 100% with one
(or more) of these builders which gives them continual, profitable work -
they're not going to upset them by being unavailable.

The matter of whether it's a sad indictment on current manners that you
didn't get a reply is different of course and I deplore such rudeness.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Bob Mannix wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
PLease *god* (or uk-diy) help me.
snip

Is it me??

No

agreed

I've (mostly) never even got as far as explaining what I need. Are
domestic jobs just not even worth thinking about nowasdays?

No, you are correct, they aren't. End of story, I'm afraid.

I was talking to my builder after he finished ny extension. He's a
small builder and had 10 jobs on the go and another 20 on his desk to
price up. He can't do them all - what's going to go in the bin - the
big ones or the small ones?

both, ime. they take the line of least resistance: most money for least
amount of aggro, either with the job or the householders and theres
nothing a tradesman hates more than a reasonably competent DIY'er
who knows a little more than the absolute nothing their usual punters do.

they're either a/ afeared that thier shoddy work will be spotted or, worse,
the DIY'er will know more about the job and be a right p.i.t.a, especially
when a/ above comes into play.

The tradespeople that remain are usually
aligned 100% with one (or more) of these builders which gives them
continual, profitable work - they're not going to upset them by being
unavailable.

The matter of whether it's a sad indictment on current manners that
you didn't get a reply is different of course and I deplore such
rudeness.

indeed.



RT

"[news]" wrote in message
...
Bob Mannix wrote:
wrote in message

I was talking to my builder after he finished ny extension. He's a
small builder and had 10 jobs on the go and another 20 on his desk to
price up. He can't do them all - what's going to go in the bin - the
big ones or the small ones?

both, ime. they take the line of least resistance: most money for least
amount of aggro, either with the job or the householders and theres
nothing a tradesman hates more than a reasonably competent DIY'er
who knows a little more than the absolute nothing their usual punters do.

In fairness my builder was very good. I had three quotes for the same work,
£25k, £35k and £45k. My builder was:

a) the cheapest
b) the only one recommended to me

This may, of course explain why

a) he never advertises
b) he has so many jobs to price up

My point was that even conscientious, hardworking, good value builders have
almost no choice but to discard small jobs (although they may actually give
you a reply).


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Simpi wrote
| I need a joiner and have tried for w e e k s to find one.. and have
| failed. ...
| 2) recommended by friend -
| 3) recommended by (kitchen extension last year - all went great)
| builder and roofer

You're approaching this the wrong way round. You need to get yourself
recommended as a client to the elite body of men in the joinery profession.

Do you have an attractive unmarried daughter who could stand provocatively
outside the timber merchant flashing a bit of thigh at any likely-looking
transit van

| Free bespoke, baked-to-order, family sized (8"), pork pie made from
| delicious rare breed pork from renowned Northumberlad farm butcher
| (New Barns), for first joiner to help me out (i.e. do the work for going
| rate).

Well I suppose that's a start, although you probably need to throw in a
crate of Newky Brown, your daughter's hand in marriage and a spare kidney or
two to get any serious interest.

Owain

Speaking as a joiner (unavailable due to own project), when I was
available I was offered about 30 times as much work as I could possibly
handle. Basically there is a massive skill shortage which in turn means
a massive amount of neglected joinery getting more decrepit by the day.
I'd try to reply to most enquiries however.
Inspite of this I found that very often especially small jobs people
didn't want to pay the price. They think we should be cheaper than,
say, garage mechanics, but they are wrong.

cheers

Jacob

In article .com,
wrote:
They think we should be cheaper than, say, garage mechanics, but they
are wrong.

When you go to a garage, you're paying for all sorts of overheads as well
as the mechanic. Are you suggesting a jobbing joiner should get the same
hourly rate as a garage charges? If so I'd say you're profiteering.

If, however, you're comparing a joiner's rate to the actual mechanic's
rate, the equation is different, since most mechanics will be full time
employees rather than self employed.

--
*Taxation WITH representation ain't much fun, either.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
wrote:
They think we should be cheaper than, say, garage mechanics, but they
are wrong.

When you go to a garage, you're paying for all sorts of overheads as well
as the mechanic. Are you suggesting a jobbing joiner should get the same
hourly rate as a garage charges? If so I'd say you're profiteering.

This is total rubbish. A joiner has costs, like tools, w/shop/van, etc.



_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

We have exactly the same sort of overheads - premises, woodwork
machinery, tools, vehicles etc
What is the difference? Also if self employed we don't get any of the
perks, benefits and security of employment.
People seem to think that should be good natured simpletons who will do
an honest days work for a pittance and be grateful for that and as much
tea as we can drink etc etc
If trying to make a reasonable living is "profiteering" then teachers,
nurses, garage mechanics, you name it - are also "profiteering".
What sort of profiteering do you do as a matter of interest, and how
much do you get paid?


cheers
Jacob

In article .com,
wrote:
We have exactly the same sort of overheads - premises, woodwork
machinery, tools, vehicles etc

Then you're not a jobbing joiner but running a workshop.

If you're the sort who goes to people's houses to do work then I suppose
you'd be roughly similar to Home Tune - but they pay franchise fees.

What is the difference? Also if self employed we don't get any of the
perks, benefits and security of employment.

Nor do you pay anything like the same tax, or NI contributions.
Oh - I'm freelance.

People seem to think that should be good natured simpletons who will do
an honest days work for a pittance and be grateful for that and as much
tea as we can drink etc etc

Thought you said you turned down 30 times as much work as you were
offered? Then market forces apply.

If trying to make a reasonable living is "profiteering" then teachers,
nurses, garage mechanics, you name it - are also "profiteering".

Did you not read my post fully? If you're comparing your earnings to those
of a mechanic, that's one thing. But you were comparing them to those a
garage would charge. Like over 100 quid an hour in London, for example.

What sort of profiteering do you do as a matter of interest, and how
much do you get paid?

I negotiate my rate - same as you. For some things. For others, it's take
it or leave it.

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
When you go to a garage, you're paying for all sorts of overheads as
well as the mechanic. Are you suggesting a jobbing joiner should get
the same hourly rate as a garage charges? If so I'd say you're
profiteering.

This is total rubbish. A joiner has costs, like tools, w/shop/van, etc.

Again, you show your complete lack of knowledge of the trades. The sort of
joiner who does jobbing work in private houses is unlikely to have
premises, or to employ other staff such as receptionists and secretaries
etc.

--
*A fool and his money are soon partying *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What you are talking about is a handyman . If he doesn't have a
workshop etc he is going to be severly limited in what he can do. I've
been a joiner for 30 years and I know lots of other joiners and we all
without exception have workshops etc as described, and overheads.
You do occasionally find an odd-jobber who may have joinery skills, or
a joiner looking for a job - usually with a joiner who has the
necessary tackle as without it he is just a handy man.
People who accuse others of profiteering are often a bit selective -
they support free markets if it results in increases in their ISAs,
pensions etc - unearned profiteering, but are horrified if free market
forces put up workers pay particularly the low paid.
Bigger joinery firms are quite likely to employ receptionists,
secretaries etc. What is it you think is so different about joinery
businesses?

cheers

Jacob

In article .com,
wrote:
People who accuse others of profiteering are often a bit selective -
they support free markets if it results in increases in their ISAs,
pensions etc - unearned profiteering, but are horrified if free market
forces put up workers pay particularly the low paid.

I'm not.

Bigger joinery firms are quite likely to employ receptionists,
secretaries etc. What is it you think is so different about joinery
businesses?

Then they need to charge the going rate or go bust.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making. In one breath, you say there
are far more customers than tradesmen to satisfy the demand. And in the
next, you're underpaid.

Doesn't quite ring true to the laws of supply and demand.

--
*There are two kinds of pedestrians... the quick and the dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Irritating tw@, aren't you Dave?


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
wrote:
We have exactly the same sort of overheads - premises, woodwork
machinery, tools, vehicles etc

Then you're not a jobbing joiner but running a workshop.

If you're the sort who goes to people's houses to do work then I suppose
you'd be roughly similar to Home Tune - but they pay franchise fees.

What is the difference? Also if self employed we don't get any of the
perks, benefits and security of employment.

Nor do you pay anything like the same tax, or NI contributions.
Oh - I'm freelance.

People seem to think that should be good natured simpletons who will do
an honest days work for a pittance and be grateful for that and as much
tea as we can drink etc etc

Thought you said you turned down 30 times as much work as you were
offered? Then market forces apply.

If trying to make a reasonable living is "profiteering" then teachers,
nurses, garage mechanics, you name it - are also "profiteering".

Did you not read my post fully? If you're comparing your earnings to those
of a mechanic, that's one thing. But you were comparing them to those a
garage would charge. Like over 100 quid an hour in London, for example.

What sort of profiteering do you do as a matter of interest, and how
much do you get paid?

I negotiate my rate - same as you. For some things. For others, it's take
it or leave it.

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'm not quite sure what point you're making. In one breath, you say there
are far more customers than tradesmen to satisfy the demand. And in the
next, you're underpaid.


That's not how I read it. You appear to be indicating that Jacob is
whingeing. Not so IMO. AIUI, he is stating the true facts of the present
market conditions. The joiner has a personal skill set which has taken
years of practicing the trade to achieve. If you wish to purchase this
persons time to utilise these skills, then it is purely a market supply
and demand situation. If I had these high level skills, I'd be more
expensive than the average car main dealers hourly rate, because that's
what I'd be worth to the customer. The cost of capital equipment is a
red herring, over a few jobs, the equipment costs are normally
relatively low in a craft occupation and that includes main dealer car
repairs!

Regards
Capitol

In article .com,
says...
We have exactly the same sort of overheads - premises, woodwork
machinery, tools, vehicles etc
What is the difference? Also if self employed we don't get any of the
perks, benefits and security of employment.
People seem to think that should be good natured simpletons who will do
an honest days work for a pittance and be grateful for that and as much
tea as we can drink etc etc
If trying to make a reasonable living is "profiteering" then teachers,
nurses, garage mechanics, you name it - are also "profiteering".
What sort of profiteering do you do as a matter of interest, and how
much do you get paid?


cheers
Jacob


I wouldn't get upset about what certain types of people think or expect.
There will always be a customer who appreciates a good job when he gets
it and is happy to pay accordingly.

When required we use a family plumbing firm for any jobs I don't feel
like tackling or haven't the time to do. They aren't cheap. But they do
come when they say they will, they do a good professional job and they
are neat and tidy. They are very much in demand

The same goes for a local electrician.

So I say don't be afraid to charge the rate that allows you to do a
satisfactory job, and as I'm sure you will have found out, word of mouth
will produce all the work you require


--
Paul Mc Cann

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
What is the difference? Also if self employed we don't get any of the
perks, benefits and security of employment.

Nor do you pay anything like the same tax, or NI contributions.


You b****y well do now. In fact I'd say my NI contributions are higher than
when I worked for others.

In article ,
Nicholas wrote:
Irritating tw@, aren't you Dave?

Almost as bad as top posters who don't trim - and attempt to join in the
discussion.

--
*All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Mike wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
What is the difference? Also if self employed we don't get any of the
perks, benefits and security of employment.

Nor do you pay anything like the same tax, or NI contributions.


You b****y well do now. In fact I'd say my NI contributions are higher
than when I worked for others.

See an accountant. If you're near SW London I can recommend a decent one.
Seriously.

--
*The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Irritating tw@, aren't you Dave?

Almost as bad as top posters who don't trim - and attempt to join in the
^^^^^^^^^^^
discussion.

Should have read 'and don't attempt'

--
*Why is it that rain drops but snow falls?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mike wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
What is the difference? Also if self employed we don't get any of
the
perks, benefits and security of employment.

Nor do you pay anything like the same tax, or NI contributions.


You b****y well do now. In fact I'd say my NI contributions are higher
than when I worked for others.

See an accountant. If you're near SW London I can recommend a decent one.
Seriously.

Well unless he's using the soon to be closed Luxemburg loophole I can't see
how he can legally reduce the NI below the type 2 and type 4 cap if you are
earning well above the limit. Of course in the old days you paid the wife
and took the money in dividends but that's all been blown out by our
Scottish 'friend' in #11.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

That was my point. I don't think any tradesman - or really anyone - is
worth over 100 quid an hour.

Why not ? If that's the going rate for one's services and people are
willing to pay it what's the problem. After all, Kate Moss charges around
£10,000 per hour and one presumes she still gets clients at this rate.

As a joiner I do occasionally get smug clients who clearly think that
all "tradesmen" are "profiteers" and expect a bit of forelock pulling
etc and are highly suspicious of everything we do and think they know
better.
It occurred to me that their expectations are self-fulfilling in that
my reaction to a potentially difficult client is to price myself out of
the job. You could call it the "eeza**** excess charge" - usually 50%
or more.


cheers

Jacob

If you wish to purchase this
persons time to utilise these skills, then it is purely a market supply
and demand situation. If I had these high level skills, I'd be more
expensive than the average car main dealers hourly rate, because that's
what I'd be worth to the customer.

That was my point. I don't think any tradesman - or really anyone - is
worth over 100 quid an hour.

Me neither, but our "learned friends" can, and do ,get away with a
bloody sight more then that!

--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
That was my point. I don't think any tradesman - or really anyone - is
worth over 100 quid an hour.

Me neither, but our "learned friends" can, and do ,get away with a
bloody sight more then that!

That's because they have a very effective trade union and are allowed all
sorts of restrictive practices.

--
*Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
That was my point. I don't think any tradesman - or really anyone - is
worth over 100 quid an hour.

Me neither, but our "learned friends" can, and do ,get away with a
bloody sight more then that!

That's because they have a very effective trade union and are allowed all
sorts of restrictive practices.

So if the tradesman can ask for and get the same without the benefit of a
closed shop, why is there a problem. Provided he does a professional job I
say charge what you can get. That's what capitalism is all about.

Top posting to make a point is perfectly acceptable IMO. Only the usenet
pedants object!!

Capitol

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Irritating tw@, aren't you Dave?


Almost as bad as top posters who don't trim - and attempt to join in the

^^^^^^^^^^^

discussion.


Should have read 'and don't attempt'

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Oh please. The cost of equipping a main dealer's workshop and reception
etc is vast.

Get into the real world. Look at the turnover. The cost per job is
quite low. The reason that servicing costs are so high is that the
dealer can only make a profit on service, not on sales, as the sales
margins are too low relative to the over heads. Only last week, I was
discussing the problem with a dealer, who had been asked to invest £5M
in glossy premises to continue to sell a brand. he told the manufacturer
where to go, as the profit margins were so low, he'd sooner sell
secondhand cars. Glossy reception areas do not make a servicing
operation. Service and competence does. Most makes of car can be
electrically serviced with a laptop computer, a few leads and third
party software. The chipping industry is fully up to speed with the
manufacturers, probably even ahead of them, partly because they don't
bother with ISO 9000 paperwork as the product actually works. Very few
special mainstream manufacturers tools cannot be supplied by third party
suppliers at a fraction of the price. Servicing at many main dealerships
can be significantly less competent than the experienced mobile
mechanic.I've never noticed that changing the oil or adjusting the
tappets etc requires that much equipment(the mechanic frequently
supplies his own tools as he knows what's crap and what isn't)! We're
back to joiners, if a large company supplies the joiner it's at least 4X
the wage rate paid to the employee and you have no guarantee that the
product will work! The jobbing joiner is only as good as the next job he
can complete satisfactorily. If he fails, he's likely to be unemployable!

I'm worried, are you developing IMM tendencies?!!
LOL

Regards
Capitol

In article ,
Mike wrote:
That was my point. I don't think any tradesman - or really anyone -
is worth over 100 quid an hour.

Me neither, but our "learned friends" can, and do ,get away with a
bloody sight more then that!

That's because they have a very effective trade union and are allowed
all sorts of restrictive practices.

So if the tradesman can ask for and get the same without the benefit of
a closed shop, why is there a problem. Provided he does a professional
job I say charge what you can get. That's what capitalism is all about.

Well yes. But not whinge on a newsgroup about not being able to charge
what they think they're worth.

--
*If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
Oh please. The cost of equipping a main dealer's workshop and reception
etc is vast.

Get into the real world. Look at the turnover. The cost per job is
quite low. The reason that servicing costs are so high is that the
dealer can only make a profit on service, not on sales, as the sales
margins are too low relative to the over heads.

Err, have you been following the thread? It's not about the pros and cons
of garages. It's about a chippie claiming he has the same outgoings as a
main dealer, and should be able to charge the same sort of money.

--
*Change is inevitable ... except from vending machines *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mike wrote:
That was my point. I don't think any tradesman - or really anyone -
is worth over 100 quid an hour.

Me neither, but our "learned friends" can, and do ,get away with a
bloody sight more then that!

That's because they have a very effective trade union and are allowed
all sorts of restrictive practices.

So if the tradesman can ask for and get the same without the benefit of
a closed shop, why is there a problem. Provided he does a professional
job I say charge what you can get. That's what capitalism is all about.

Well yes. But not whinge on a newsgroup about not being able to charge
what they think they're worth.

I think this is fast becoming uk.whinge anyway :-)

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:37:35 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Then you're not a jobbing joiner but running a workshop.

If you're the sort who goes to people's houses to do work then I suppose
you'd be roughly similar to Home Tune - but they pay franchise fees.

Well in my book, a "joiner" is someone who works from their workshop,
and a "carpenter" is someone who goes on-site.


I'm looking for work, as I'm trying (and to be honest, failing) to get
established as a furniture maker (If I cost more than Ikea, that's
pretty much end of story for most clients). As I still have my bills
to pay, I'm perfectly happy to go and do some decent simple work for a
reasonable rate for that job. The fact that I _can_ make boulle work
doesn't mean I should get sniffy about lap jointed softwood, if that's
all that's needed.

Yet if I try and tout myself around builders, they're supremely
uninterested in employing me. The ideal candidate is 23, strong, fit
and thick. Most on-site building work is _not_ rocket science, and
they don't have any need for someone who can do something they simply
have no demand for - and why should they ?

I was offered a job recently, by a kitchen fitting company who'd gone
so far as to look at some of my own work - inch thick solid oak
cabinet tops, and a decent piece of work it was too. Then the guy
offered me £6/hour ! (Lidl offer over £7 for shelf stacking).

I don't particularly _want_ to be a jobbing on-site carpenter or light
builder. I don't have a van, I have my own money in my big workshop
tools (so I'd like to make them work for me), and the last thing I
need is to have to kit out a rolling workshop as well, so that I'm
equipped to do anything and everything from glazing to roofing to
floor sanding. I don't particularly want to be a sole trader on that
basis either - there's a lot of overhead behind that yellow pages
listing, the always-answered phone, and the good response that the OP
was finding so sadly lacking.

So in a market when the simplest on-site carpentry work is making more
profit for a builder than anything awkward, complicated, and with a
resident customer looking over your shoulder, then can we be surprised
if no-one wants to do the sort of joinery the OP is after ? The
builders have better things to do, maintenance for commercial or
"corporate" residential pays better than individuals, and anyone
trying to do it on their own finds that the money on offer is
basically insulting.

I'm also a skilled Java / J2EE developer, in a market that's pretty
moribund for 40 year olds (hence the furniture). I've probably put
more effort into learning what I know about furniture than I have
software. The rewards for one are vastly more than the other, but the
skill levels are no different.

--
Smert' spamionam

Andy

I had exactly the same problem and started off not quite knowing what
I'd be doing - I bought a box of blum hinges (only ever used 4 in the
end) and MDF etc expecting to do kitchens or whatever. Got jobs doing
all sorts of joinery work slowly but perfectly which people seemed to
find a bit eccentric. Infact someone said recently that he'd been to
someones house and he had had pointed out the curved skirting boards
with the perfect mitres and scribes which I had done years ago. Did
some crap work too - you can only learn by doing it!
But then by chance I got in to period joinery and just specialised in
that alone and didn't do anything else at all. Got loads of work and
made a bit of a living. http://www.owdman.co.uk/joinery
Also it's a rapidly growing sector with lots of demand and shortage of
skills. Leave all the crap work (and the crap clients) to the cowboys.
So specialising might be your way forward - stick to a limited
repertoire and become expert in that. I'm hoping to start anew when
I've finished current project - chapel conversion, but with furniture
instead of joinery, and have one or two particular things in mind which
I hope to specialise in

cheers

Jacob

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:37:35 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Then you're not a jobbing joiner but running a workshop.

If you're the sort who goes to people's houses to do work then I suppose
you'd be roughly similar to Home Tune - but they pay franchise fees.

Well in my book, a "joiner" is someone who works from their workshop,
and a "carpenter" is someone who goes on-site.

Odd. In my book a joiner comes to my house to do repairs whereas a
carpenter makes things for me in his workshop.

Great thing the English language :-)

Mike wrote:

Odd. In my book a joiner comes to my house to do repairs whereas a
carpenter makes things for me in his workshop.

Great thing the English language :-)

In mine the carpenter is someone who does mostly framing and carcassing
work using sawn timber whilst the joiner makes and fixes 'joinery' -
doors, windows, etc., working generally to a finer scale of precision.

Carpenters work mostly on site, except perhaps for traditional
timber-framers who have a 'fraymin place' for pre-fabricating frames for
later reassembly on site. Joiners in larger firms will tend to be bench
joiners (workshop based) or journeymen, working on site. In a smaller
set-up they'll do both shop and site work.

--
Andy

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
Mike wrote:

Odd. In my book a joiner comes to my house to do repairs whereas a
carpenter makes things for me in his workshop.

Great thing the English language :-)

In mine the carpenter is someone who does mostly framing and carcassing
work using sawn timber whilst the joiner makes and fixes 'joinery' -
doors, windows, etc., working generally to a finer scale of precision.


Jesus's dad was a carpenter and he made furniture. One would presume this
was in his own premises.

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 11:39:43 +0000, Andy Wade
wrote:

In mine the carpenter is someone who does mostly framing and carcassing
work using sawn timber whilst the joiner makes and fixes 'joinery' -
doors, windows, etc., working generally to a finer scale of precision.

The use of "joinery" (orig. "joynery") for fixed "trim" work is of a
later date, roughly when timber panelling began to be used. It was to
make a distinction between joiners and cabinetmakers, not carpenters.

(ref. Cescinsky)

Joinery was originally) a furniture making term, the making of
"joined" panels with a frame and central panel, as opposed to earlier
boarded or clamped work.

(ref, Hayward)

A joiner also uses a plane at a bench, whilst a carpenter originally
used neither (they'd use an adze instead).

(ref Goodman)


If we were to take descriptions of Jesus as a guide, then Mel Gibson's
film version (hyper-accurate Aramaic and all) portrayed him using a
type of screw-vice bench that's first known from a Nuremberg engraving
of 1505.

Andy Dingley wrote:


If we were to take descriptions of Jesus as a guide, then Mel Gibson's
film version (hyper-accurate Aramaic and all) portrayed him using a
type of screw-vice bench that's first known from a Nuremberg engraving
of 1505.

Yeah well, that's long enough ago for Hollywood.

All these Historical films - as my daughter explained recently - are set
in the same place. That place is called Yore. It's where all of that Old
Stuff happens. And it's probably why Yore-up is called Yore-up, 'cause
it's summin' to do with Yore.

Y'see?