I'm moving into a new house that I think has a fully pumped central
heating system. The boiler is oil-fired. The system has minimal controls
with no room thermostats or TRVs and a very simple timeswitch for the
boiler. There is a manual ball valve to isolate the CH. (This very basic
installatioon seems to be quite standard in this part of Ireland.)

Could anyone suggest any relatively easy ways to add more control to the
system. How much benefit would adding TRV's alone be? Would adding a
motorized valve in series with the CH ball valve and connected to a
better timeswitch make sense. Should/can I go the whole way and add
Y-Plan type controls.

I should probably point out that the system is brand new and just seems
to be under-specced.

Thanks,
Jonathan

"JonathanD" wrote in message
...
I'm moving into a new house that I think has a fully pumped central
heating system. The boiler is oil-fired. The system has minimal controls
with no room thermostats or TRVs and a very simple timeswitch for the
boiler. There is a manual ball valve to isolate the CH. (This very basic
installatioon seems to be quite standard in this part of Ireland.)

Could anyone suggest any relatively easy ways to add more control to the
system. How much benefit would adding TRV's alone be? Would adding a
motorized valve in series with the CH ball valve and connected to a
better timeswitch make sense. Should/can I go the whole way and add
Y-Plan type controls.

I should probably point out that the system is brand new and just seems
to be under-specced.

That would be illegal in the UK, (I assume southern Ireland). Put in two
2-port zone valves (one CH, one DHW), cylinder stat, Honeywell CM67 (with
optimisation) programmers/stat. Have a timer for the DHW only. Put TRVs on
the rads except the one where the CM67 is. Find if the boiler requires a
pump over-run and wire to suit.




_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:

"JonathanD" wrote in
message ...
I'm moving into a new house that I think has a fully pumped central
heating system. The boiler is oil-fired. The system has minimal
controls with no room thermostats or TRVs and a very simple
timeswitch for the boiler. There is a manual ball valve to isolate
the CH. (This very basic installatioon seems to be quite standard
in this part of Ireland.)

Could anyone suggest any relatively easy ways to add more control to
the system. How much benefit would adding TRV's alone be? Would
adding a motorized valve in series with the CH ball valve and
connected to a better timeswitch make sense. Should/can I go the
whole way and add Y-Plan type controls.

I should probably point out that the system is brand new and just
seems to be under-specced.

That would be illegal in the UK, (I assume southern Ireland). Put in
two 2-port zone valves (one CH, one DHW), cylinder stat, Honeywell
CM67 (with optimisation) programmers/stat. Have a timer for the DHW
only. Put TRVs on the rads except the one where the CM67 is. Find
if the boiler requires a pump over-run and wire to suit.

Amazingly, I find myself in agreement with IMM! [I can't believe I'm writing
this! Whatever happened to the expected response of "throw it all away and
replace it with a combi"?]

I would just add one thing. If the boiler *does* need a pump over-run, the
water needs somewhere to go during the over-run phase even if both zone
valves are shut - which they likely will be. So install an automatic by-pass
valve as well - between the flow and return pipes before the zone valves.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:

"JonathanD" wrote in
message ...
I'm moving into a new house that I think has a fully pumped central
heating system. The boiler is oil-fired. The system has minimal
controls with no room thermostats or TRVs and a very simple
timeswitch for the boiler. There is a manual ball valve to isolate
the CH. (This very basic installatioon seems to be quite standard
in this part of Ireland.)

Could anyone suggest any relatively easy ways to add more control to
the system. How much benefit would adding TRV's alone be? Would
adding a motorized valve in series with the CH ball valve and
connected to a better timeswitch make sense. Should/can I go the
whole way and add Y-Plan type controls.

I should probably point out that the system is brand new and just
seems to be under-specced.

That would be illegal in the UK, (I assume southern Ireland). Put in
two 2-port zone valves (one CH, one DHW), cylinder stat, Honeywell
CM67 (with optimisation) programmers/stat. Have a timer for the DHW
only. Put TRVs on the rads except the one where the CM67 is. Find
if the boiler requires a pump over-run and wire to suit.

Amazingly, I find myself in agreement with IMM!

I am always right, so if you disagree accept you are wrong and do it my way.

Whatever happened to the expected
response of "throw it all away and
replace it with a combi"?]

Clombi's are banned in southern Ireland.

I would just add one thing. If the boiler *does* need a pump over-run, the
water needs somewhere to go during the over-run phase even if both zone
valves are shut - which they likely will be. So install an automatic
by-pass
valve as well - between the flow and return pipes before the zone valves.

You have to look at the boiler makers specs.



_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

"JonathanD" wrote in message
...
I'm moving into a new house that I think has a fully pumped central
heating system. The boiler is oil-fired. The system has minimal controls
with no room thermostats or TRVs and a very simple timeswitch for the
boiler. There is a manual ball valve to isolate the CH. (This very basic
installatioon seems to be quite standard in this part of Ireland.)

Could anyone suggest any relatively easy ways to add more control to the
system. How much benefit would adding TRV's alone be? Would adding a
motorized valve in series with the CH ball valve and connected to a better
timeswitch make sense. Should/can I go the whole way and add Y-Plan type
controls.

If you are at the stage of deciding to put in controls then don't go for a Y
plan but opt instead for an S-plan or a S+ if you can reasonably seperate
upstairs and downstairs heating. This will depend on the pipework
arrangement. Fit a "bypass" to the pipework before the motorised valves as
this will provide a route for the pump to circulate in the event of closure
of most of the TRVs, or short circuit failure of the microswitches in the
valves. I've seen a few bathroom/cloakroom rads employed as a bypass route
which gives dry towels all year.
While drained down fit Danfoss TRVs to all radiators except the one in a
"representative" position in the house, usually the hall for single heating
zone houses but sometimes another room. Just avoid rooms with other heat
sources such as kitchens and lounges with a fire. (You may find it
beneficial if you have a towel rail as well as a bathroom rad then fit the
rad with TRV and omit it from the towel rail.)


I should probably point out that the system is brand new and just seems to
be under-specced.

Presumably English building regs don't apply in your are then. dont you have
something similar or does bureacracy give up in the face of intense
blarney?g

Thanks,
Jonathan

IMM wrote:
"JonathanD" wrote in message
...

I'm moving into a new house that I think has a fully pumped central
heating system. The boiler is oil-fired. The system has minimal controls
with no room thermostats or TRVs and a very simple timeswitch for the
boiler. There is a manual ball valve to isolate the CH. (This very basic
installatioon seems to be quite standard in this part of Ireland.)

Could anyone suggest any relatively easy ways to add more control to the
system. How much benefit would adding TRV's alone be? Would adding a
motorized valve in series with the CH ball valve and connected to a
better timeswitch make sense. Should/can I go the whole way and add
Y-Plan type controls.

I should probably point out that the system is brand new and just seems
to be under-specced.


That would be illegal in the UK, (I assume southern Ireland). Put in two
2-port zone valves (one CH, one DHW), cylinder stat, Honeywell CM67 (with
optimisation) programmers/stat. Have a timer for the DHW only. Put TRVs on
the rads except the one where the CM67 is. Find if the boiler requires a
pump over-run and wire to suit.

It's not entirely in the spirit of the law here either! AFAIK, building
regilations here state that there must be a reasonable level of control
and then give guidelines in an appendix describing what "reasonable"
might be. In theory the developer should have put in controls similar to
your suggestion _and_ split the CH into two zones because the floor area
is over a certain size. But that's one for the surveyors and solicitors
to sort out

Thanks for the advice. If I can't get my way with the developer, it
looks like I'll be getting my hands dirty. At least I have the
opportunity to do the work before carpets etc. go in

Jonathan

Set Square wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
IMM wrote:


"JonathanD" wrote in
message ...

I'm moving into a new house that I think has a fully pumped central
heating system. The boiler is oil-fired. The system has minimal
controls with no room thermostats or TRVs and a very simple
timeswitch for the boiler. There is a manual ball valve to isolate
the CH. (This very basic installatioon seems to be quite standard
in this part of Ireland.)

Could anyone suggest any relatively easy ways to add more control to
the system. How much benefit would adding TRV's alone be? Would
adding a motorized valve in series with the CH ball valve and
connected to a better timeswitch make sense. Should/can I go the
whole way and add Y-Plan type controls.

I should probably point out that the system is brand new and just
seems to be under-specced.

That would be illegal in the UK, (I assume southern Ireland). Put in
two 2-port zone valves (one CH, one DHW), cylinder stat, Honeywell
CM67 (with optimisation) programmers/stat. Have a timer for the DHW
only. Put TRVs on the rads except the one where the CM67 is. Find
if the boiler requires a pump over-run and wire to suit.


Amazingly, I find myself in agreement with IMM! [I can't believe I'm writing
this! Whatever happened to the expected response of "throw it all away and
replace it with a combi"?]

I would just add one thing. If the boiler *does* need a pump over-run, the
water needs somewhere to go during the over-run phase even if both zone
valves are shut - which they likely will be. So install an automatic by-pass
valve as well - between the flow and return pipes before the zone valves.

Thanks for that -- reminded me to make sure I get all the specs from the
developer.

Jonathan

John wrote:
"JonathanD" wrote in message
...

I'm moving into a new house that I think has a fully pumped central
heating system. The boiler is oil-fired. The system has minimal controls
with no room thermostats or TRVs and a very simple timeswitch for the
boiler. There is a manual ball valve to isolate the CH. (This very basic
installatioon seems to be quite standard in this part of Ireland.)

Could anyone suggest any relatively easy ways to add more control to the
system. How much benefit would adding TRV's alone be? Would adding a
motorized valve in series with the CH ball valve and connected to a better
timeswitch make sense. Should/can I go the whole way and add Y-Plan type
controls.


If you are at the stage of deciding to put in controls then don't go for a Y
plan but opt instead for an S-plan or a S+ if you can reasonably seperate
upstairs and downstairs heating. This will depend on the pipework
arrangement. Fit a "bypass" to the pipework before the motorised valves as
this will provide a route for the pump to circulate in the event of closure
of most of the TRVs, or short circuit failure of the microswitches in the
valves. I've seen a few bathroom/cloakroom rads employed as a bypass route
which gives dry towels all year.
While drained down fit Danfoss TRVs to all radiators except the one in a
"representative" position in the house, usually the hall for single heating
zone houses but sometimes another room. Just avoid rooms with other heat
sources such as kitchens and lounges with a fire. (You may find it
beneficial if you have a towel rail as well as a bathroom rad then fit the
rad with TRV and omit it from the towel rail.)


I should probably point out that the system is brand new and just seems to
be under-specced.


Presumably English building regs don't apply in your are then. dont you have
something similar or does bureacracy give up in the face of intense
blarney?g

No, Ireland has strict building regulations - the degree to which
they're applied just seems to be inversely proportional to the distance
from Dublin

AFAIK, some of the regs covering insulation (U-valve and other things I
haven't a clue about) are even stricter than the UK regs. Having good
regs is only half the battle though ...

Jonathan

"JonathanD" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:
"JonathanD" wrote in message
...

I'm moving into a new house that I think has a fully pumped central
heating system. The boiler is oil-fired. The system has minimal controls
with no room thermostats or TRVs and a very simple timeswitch for the
boiler. There is a manual ball valve to isolate the CH. (This very basic
installatioon seems to be quite standard in this part of Ireland.)

Could anyone suggest any relatively easy ways to add more control to the
system. How much benefit would adding TRV's alone be? Would adding a
motorized valve in series with the CH ball valve and connected to a
better timeswitch make sense. Should/can I go the whole way and add
Y-Plan type controls.

I should probably point out that the system is brand new and just seems
to be under-specced.


That would be illegal in the UK, (I assume southern Ireland). Put in
two
2-port zone valves (one CH, one DHW), cylinder stat, Honeywell CM67
(with
optimisation) programmers/stat. Have a timer for the DHW only. Put TRVs
on
the rads except the one where the CM67 is. Find if the boiler requires
a
pump over-run and wire to suit.

It's not entirely in the spirit of the law here either! AFAIK, building
regilations here state that there must be a reasonable level of control
and then give guidelines in an appendix describing what "reasonable"
might be. In theory the developer should have put in controls similar to
your suggestion _and_ split the CH into two zones because the floor area
is over a certain size. But that's one for the surveyors and solicitors
to sort out

Thanks for the advice. If I can't get my way with the developer, it
looks like I'll be getting my hands dirty. At least I have the
opportunity to do the work before carpets etc. go in

Jonathan

Good idea to split into two zones, upstairs and down. Use another 2-port
valve and CM67. It may be more pipework, and a bit of pain, but the house is
empty and it is worth it.



_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "IMM" saying
something like:

Whatever happened to the expected
response of "throw it all away and
replace it with a combi"?]

Clombi's are banned in southern Ireland.

Are they ********.
--

Dave

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "IMM" saying
something like:

Whatever happened to the expected
response of "throw it all away and
replace it with a combi"?]

Clombi's are banned in southern Ireland.

Are they ********.

How do you know?



_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "IMM" saying
something like:

Clombi's are banned in southern Ireland.

Are they ********.

How do you know?

I live there/here.
--

Dave

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "IMM" saying
something like:


Whatever happened to the expected
response of "throw it all away and
replace it with a combi"?]

Clombi's are banned in southern Ireland.


Are they ********.

Grimly, don't suppose you know where I stand buying a new house with
minimal CH controls that don't seem to satisfy the building regs? Do you
know if this minimal installation is common? Is it worth arguing with
the developer, or should I just do the upgrade myself?

Cheers,
Jonathan

"JonathanD" wrote in message
...

UK regs on insulation is very high and
increasing too. On Grand Designs on
TV, they covered a converted church in
Ireland and there was hardly any
insulation in the place.

I saw that episode. There are exemptions
for "buildings of architectural
and historic interest" -- I guess the
church came under that heading.

I can't see why. They built a modern house inside the churrch. I would have
filled that place as it was open to the elements.

Under our 2002 regs, the _minimum_ level of control is (quiting from the
regs) "automatic control of space heating on basis of room temperature;
automatic control of heat input to stored hot water on basis of stored
water temperature; separate and independent automatic time control of
space heating and hot water; shut down of boiler or other heat source
when there is no demand for either space or water heating from that
source".

This sounds like what you've described, so I guess I'll be taking it up
with the solicitors!

Best of luck.


_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember JonathanD
saying something like:

Grimly, don't suppose you know where I stand buying a new house with
minimal CH controls that don't seem to satisfy the building regs? Do you
know if this minimal installation is common?

That minimal installation is in 90% of houses here. It's inefficient and
more costly to run in comparison with a properly laid-out system, as you
probably know. The vast majority of these minimal control systems have
been put in over the past 30 years, but a surprising number of new
builds are equipped with them; simply because the developers know they
can get away with it because the buyers don't know any better.

Is it worth arguing with
the developer, or should I just do the upgrade myself?

Certainly worth an argument if you quote chapter and verse of the regs.
If he won't play along with you get onto the county BCO.
--

Dave

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "IMM" saying
something like:

Clombi's are banned in southern Ireland.

Are they ********.

How do you know?

I live there/here.

It must be recent they have allowed them, or only in certain areas. The
mains system could not cope.


_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

In message , IMM
writes

I am always right, so if you disagree accept you are wrong and do it my way.

Whatever happened to the expected
response of "throw it all away and
replace it with a combi"?]

Clombi's are banned in southern Ireland.

They might be - are they some sort of leprechaun ?

However, combi boilers can't be - I've just sent about 50 boards and
fans to a company in Cork, most of which were from combis

So, I would withdraw your "I'm always right" comment above

as usual ... DIM^2 is one clue short of a clue

--
geoff

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "IMM" saying
something like:

Clombi's are banned in southern Ireland.

Are they ********.

How do you know?

I live there/here.

It must be recent they have allowed them, or only in certain areas. The
mains system could not cope.

That certainly may have been true a few years ago, but the gas pipline
network has been massively upgraded in the past decade. We'll probably
run out of gas just about the same time the UK does.
--

Dave

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "IMM" saying
something like:

Clombi's are banned in southern Ireland.

Are they ********.

How do you know?

I live there/here.

It must be recent they have allowed them, or only in certain areas. The
mains system could not cope.

That certainly may have been true a few years ago, but the gas pipline
network has been massively upgraded in the past decade. We'll probably
run out of gas just about the same time the UK does.

Water mains.


_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM
writes

I am always right, so if you disagree accept you are wrong and do it my
way.

Whatever happened to the expected
response of "throw it all away and
replace it with a combi"?]

Clombi's are banned in southern Ireland.

They might be - are they some sort of leprechaun ?

However, combi boilers can't be - I've just sent about 50 boards and
fans to a company in Cork, most of which were from combis

So, I would withdraw your "I'm always right" comment above

as usual ... DIM^2 is one clue short of a clue

Maxie, are saying Din Lin the lucsious lovely is short of a clue?


_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "IMM" saying
something like:

That certainly may have been true a few years ago, but the gas pipline
network has been massively upgraded in the past decade. We'll probably
run out of gas just about the same time the UK does.

Water mains.

No worse than the UK, in general.
--

Dave

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "IMM" saying
something like:

That certainly may have been true a few years ago, but the gas pipline
network has been massively upgraded in the past decade. We'll probably
run out of gas just about the same time the UK does.

Water mains.

No worse than the UK, in general.

How long have they allowed mains pressure water? Obviously in older parts of
cities I would assume they do not allow them. Many British cities would not
even allow a multi-point. The newer areas were more than adequate, but they
didn't want to set a precedence, so banned the lot. Many cities have uprated
the water mains since.



_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:04:23 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



That would be illegal in the UK, (I assume southern Ireland). Put in two
2-port zone valves (one CH, one DHW), cylinder stat, Honeywell CM67 (with
optimisation) programmers/stat. Have a timer for the DHW only. Put TRVs on
the rads except the one where the CM67 is. Find if the boiler requires a
pump over-run and wire to suit.


The CM67 (with optimisation) will not function coirrectly on a system
with stored DHW unless the DHW timer is set to heat the water at
different times to when the CH is likely to be running.

The CM67 is for combies.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Zip 1 wrote:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:04:23 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


The CM67 (with optimisation) will not function coirrectly on a system
with stored DHW unless the DHW timer is set to heat the water at
different times to when the CH is likely to be running.

The CM67 is for combies.

The CM67 is *not* exclusively for combies.

It is *preferable* to time HW and CH at different times. It is very easy to
do this, by having HW on Timed - using the timer in the main programmer -
and by having CH on Continuous, and actually timing it with the CM67.

If they are both on together, some of the boiler's output will be heating
the water - so the rate of heatup of the house may be slightly lower than
the CM67 assumes when determining when to start the heating. However, in my
experience, the CM67 takes a slightly pessimistic view - and starts a bit
early anyway - so this ain't going to matter too much.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Zip 1" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:04:23 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



That would be illegal in the UK, (I assume southern Ireland). Put in two
2-port zone valves (one CH, one DHW), cylinder stat, Honeywell CM67 (with
optimisation) programmers/stat. Have a timer for the DHW only. Put TRVs
on
the rads except the one where the CM67 is. Find if the boiler requires a
pump over-run and wire to suit.


The CM67 (with optimisation) will not function coirrectly on a system
with stored DHW unless the DHW timer is set to heat the water at
different times to when the CH is likely to be running.

The CM67 is for combies.

Not exclusively. The CM67 is a single zone control and is fine for any
system as long as you realise its limitations. To control hot water you need
a seperate single output time control to take care of the cylinder. Use of
more than one CM67 is OK for multi heating zone installations when you will
gain its optimised start facility.
In any case its a requirement to have seperate independant controls for time
and temperature of heating and hot water. Hence old style single time zone
programmers don't fit the bill any more although this doesn't seem to have
filtered through to the world at large.