Newbie question.

I want to make a wooden stool, quite an unsophisticated one,
with four legs square in cross section.

It will be used for usual stooly things such as standing
on to reach things that are high up, and carting to places
one wants to sit but doesn't want to cart a dining or office
chair to.

The 25mm x 25mm sticks at B&Q obviously aren't strong enough.

Could someone please help me with what sort of wood I need,
and where I might get it?

Many thanks!

Cheers,

Chris

"Chris Nellist" wrote in
message ...
Newbie question.

I want to make a wooden stool, quite an unsophisticated one,
with four legs square in cross section.

The reason that milkmaid stools were made with three legs is that three legs
will always all touch the ground, no matter how uneven, while four legs will
only all touch if the surface is perfectly flat (assuming no errors in
making the stool).

It will be used for usual stooly things such as standing
on to reach things that are high up,

A very good reason for wanting one that does not wobble, although I have a
small set of aluminium steps for such jobs, which I consider to be much
safer.

and carting to places
one wants to sit but doesn't want to cart a dining or office
chair to.

The 25mm x 25mm sticks at B&Q obviously aren't strong enough.

Could someone please help me with what sort of wood I need,
and where I might get it?

For a basic stool, joinery quality timber from a timber merchant. OTOH,
dowel would make it easier to build. You would only need to drill the right
size blind holes in the underside of the seat base and glue the dowel in
place.

Colin Bignell

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert_my_surname_here wrote in message
...


I want to make a wooden stool, quite an unsophisticated one,
with four legs square in cross section.

The reason that milkmaid stools were made with three legs is that three
legs will always all touch the ground, no matter how uneven, while four
legs will only all touch if the surface is perfectly flat (assuming no
errors in making the stool).

That's true, but even a wobbly four legged stool won't fall over as easily
as a three legged stool.

It will be used for usual stooly things such as standing
on to reach things that are high up,

A very good reason for wanting one that does not wobble, although I have a
small set of aluminium steps for such jobs, which I consider to be much
safer.

I agree. We have one upstairs and one downstairs.

Mary

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
"Chris Nellist" wrote in
message ...

I want to make a wooden stool, quite an unsophisticated one,
with four legs square in cross section.

The reason that milkmaid stools were made with three legs is that three legs
will always all touch the ground, no matter how uneven, while four legs will
only all touch if the surface is perfectly flat (assuming no errors in
making the stool).

It will be used for usual stooly things such as standing
on to reach things that are high up,


For standing on you don't want a three legged stool, very unstable.
Whereas with four legs it may wobble on an unevensurface but is less
likely to give way when trying to support two feet.



--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

Peter Ramm wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:24:24 GMT, quisquiliae
wrote:

For standing on you don't want a three legged stool, very unstable.
Whereas with four legs it may wobble on an unevensurface but is less
likely to give way when trying to support two feet.


Not sure I'd agree - please can you explain why?

Sitting on a stool the weight is centred so 3 legs will provide
stability on an uneven surface. But using a stool for standing on is
another matter. Step on the stool with just one leg and you can place
your weight in the centre, then step up with the second foot, that foot
will have to go nearer the edge, transferring any weight to that foot
will tend to either distribute the load on to one leg or on the edge of
the segment of stool that lies between two legs. Either is unstable.
For a three legged stool to be stable for _standing on_ the triangle
over the legs needs to be large enough to accomodate two feet well
within its boundary. If not either it will tilt with the weight of one
foot (if that is off centre) or do so when the weight distribution
changes to accomodate two feet.
Four legs will better accomodate the shifting load during step-on step-off.


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

"quisquiliae" wrote in message
...
Peter Ramm wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:24:24 GMT, quisquiliae
wrote:

For standing on you don't want a three legged stool, very unstable.
Whereas with four legs it may wobble on an unevensurface but is less
likely to give way when trying to support two feet.


Not sure I'd agree -

Why?

Sitting on a stool the weight is centred so 3 legs will provide stability
on an uneven surface. But using a stool for standing on is another matter.
Step on the stool with just one leg and you can place your weight in the
centre, then step up with the second foot, that foot will have to go
nearer the edge, transferring any weight to that foot will tend to either
distribute the load on to one leg or on the edge of the segment of stool
that lies between two legs. Either is unstable.
For a three legged stool to be stable for _standing on_ the triangle over
the legs needs to be large enough to accomodate two feet well within its
boundary. If not either it will tilt with the weight of one foot (if that
is off centre) or do so when the weight distribution changes to accomodate
two feet.
Four legs will better accomodate the shifting load during step-on
step-off.

I couldn't have put it better!

Mary

"Peter Ramm" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:04:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"quisquiliae" wrote in message
. uk...
Peter Ramm wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:24:24 GMT, quisquiliae
wrote:

For standing on you don't want a three legged stool, very unstable.
Whereas with four legs it may wobble on an unevensurface but is less
likely to give way when trying to support two feet.


Not sure I'd agree -

Why?

There is nothing intrinsically which makes a three legged stool more
unstable than a four legged one - it depends on the overall design of
the stool.

Both you and "quisquiliae" are assuming that there is more of an
"overhang" of the stool top with respect to a straight line joining
adjacent legs with a three legged than with a four legged - which is
not necessarily the case.

You may also be assuming that a three legged stool has a circular top
compared with a four legged stool with a square/rectangle top - in
which case I would agree about the overhang and hence stability - but
this is not always the case.

However, a four legged stool with a square top and a leg in each
corner is no more stable than a three legged stool with a triangular
top and a leg in each corner.

I rest my case ;-)

You didn't read the op properly in that case.
--
Pete Ramm
LID

Stamp out Spam - See my anti-spam pages:
http://www.spamfreezone.org

The message
from quisquiliae contains these words:

Sitting on a stool the weight is centred so 3 legs will provide
stability on an uneven surface. But using a stool for standing on is
another matter. Step on the stool with just one leg and you can place
your weight in the centre, then step up with the second foot, that foot
will have to go nearer the edge, transferring any weight to that foot
will tend to either distribute the load on to one leg or on the edge of
the segment of stool that lies between two legs. Either is unstable.

If the weight is on both feet the stool will be stable provided the
centre of gravity of the person standing on it is within (as in
vertically above) the area bounded by a line drawn round the outside
edges of the stool legs. That applies whether the stool has 3 or 4 legs.

For a three legged stool to be stable for _standing on_ the triangle
over the legs needs to be large enough to accomodate two feet well
within its boundary. If not either it will tilt with the weight of one
foot (if that is off centre) or do so when the weight distribution
changes to accomodate two feet.

Not so. You can stand on a 3 legged stool much smaller than that. It is
easy enough to shuffle around without actually lifting the feet off the
seat but for the stool not to turn over when the stander lifts one foot
the marginal condition is for the centre of the foot (ie the point
directly below the bodys centre of gravity) to be on the outer boundary
referred to above.

Four legs will better accomodate the shifting load during step-on step-off.

Only if the all four legs are firmly in touch with the ground otherwise
the undamped shake during the single leg step up could easily magnify
out of control.

--
Roger

3 legs inherently stable because any 3 points in space will lie in a
plane i.e. the ends of the legs and the contact points on the floor.
Hence 3 legs will always all 3 make contact in ordinary circumstances.
4 legs may have one leg out of the plane, or one point of contact out
of the plane and hence high probability of rocking a bit. Most
furniture is a bit bendy and so will settle if left in the same place
and eventually stop rocking.
If you want a stable stool whether 3 or 4 legs then its important to
design it so that the legs are splayed a bit to extend beyond the edge
of the seat/top in plan - then it is less likely to tip if you stand on
the edge - though it will if you rock it enough.
Any old wood will do more or less.

cheers

Jacob

"quisquiliae" wrote in message
...
nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
"Chris Nellist" wrote in
message ...

I want to make a wooden stool, quite an unsophisticated one,
with four legs square in cross section.

The reason that milkmaid stools were made with three legs is that three
legs will always all touch the ground, no matter how uneven, while four
legs will only all touch if the surface is perfectly flat (assuming no
errors in making the stool).

It will be used for usual stooly things such as standing
on to reach things that are high up,


For standing on you don't want a three legged stool, very unstable.

For standing, you want a set of steps, not a stool, of any design.

Colin Bignell

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:

For standing, you want a set of steps, not a stool, of any design.

Colin Bignell


I find a one-piece plastic four legged single step (which is effectively
a stool designed specifically for standing on) much more comfortable for
standing on than a set of steps, because the area on which my feet are
supported is larger and I can step on/off from any direction. Sets of
steps are much better at dealing with standing at variable heights.

Biggles

"Biggles" wrote in message
...
nightjar nightjar@ wrote:

For standing, you want a set of steps, not a stool, of any design.

Colin Bignell


I find a one-piece plastic four legged single step (which is effectively a
stool designed specifically for standing on) much more comfortable for
standing on than a set of steps, because the area on which my feet are
supported is larger and I can step on/off from any direction. Sets of
steps are much better at dealing with standing at variable heights.

I use platform steps, of different heights, which not only give an adequate
standing area, but also have a handrail and, sometimes, a tool tray, at
waist height.

Colin Bignell

[going OT]

wrote:
any 3 points in space will lie in a plane

Nice bit of topology that.

My favourite bit of topology is the "ham sandwich theorem",
which is an extension of the "bacon and egg theorem".

The latter states that any two closed shapes in a plane
can be cut with a single straight line in such a way that
each shape's area is divided exactly in two. The practical
application of this is that if you have a plate containing
one piece of bacon and one egg, you can always use
one straight cut to cut through both items so that two
people can have equal amounts of bacon and egg.

The ham sandwich theorem is the same, except it's three
objects in 3-d space, and there is always a single plane
which will divide each object's volume in two. This means
that any ham sandwich can be fairly divided between two
people using only one swish of the knife, even if the two
slices of bread are miles apart and the ham is in another
country!

Have a good morning everyone,
Al

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert_my_surname_here wrote in message


For standing on you don't want a three legged stool, very unstable.

For standing, you want a set of steps, not a stool, of any design.

Yes. And you never see three legged steps ... imagine what HSE would say
about that!

Of course some smarty pants will point out easels. They aren't stepped on.
Or he might point out that a ladder only has a three point loading -
ignoring that one of them, the wall, has a long/broad base.

We're not going to convince SP, Colin, by our practical experience! Not that
I want to particularly, such a stubborn attitude is heading for a
well-deserved fall ... :-)

Mary

Colin Bignell

wrote in
oups.com:

If you want a stable stool whether 3 or 4 legs then its important to
design it so that the legs are splayed a bit to extend beyond the edge
of the seat/top in plan - then it is less likely to tip if you stand on
the edge - though it will if you rock it enough.

Thanks for this. Yes, I will splay the legs a bit.
I've figured it's easier to do this if I don't do it
so that if extended they would all meet at a point.
So I'll splay two outwards in one plane and the other
two outwards in another, parallel plane. This will
make it easier to make and put in the horizontal
pieces at top and bottom. (This may sound pathetic,
but I am using rudimentary equipment).

Any old wood will do more or less.

Hmm. I don't like the look of those sticks from B&Q :-)
The wood is too soft.

Chris

"nightjar" wrote in
:

"Chris Nellist" wrote
in message ...

[SNIP]

Could someone please help me with what sort of wood I need,
and where I might get it?

For a basic stool, joinery quality timber from a timber merchant.

Hi and many thanks for this. But what do I actually ask for?
Can you give some examples of suitable stuff and what it's
called?

Cheers,

Chris

In article , "Chris
Nellist" says...
wrote in
oups.com:

If you want a stable stool whether 3 or 4 legs then its important to
design it so that the legs are splayed a bit to extend beyond the edge
of the seat/top in plan - then it is less likely to tip if you stand on
the edge - though it will if you rock it enough.

Thanks for this. Yes, I will splay the legs a bit.
I've figured it's easier to do this if I don't do it
so that if extended they would all meet at a point.
So I'll splay two outwards in one plane and the other
two outwards in another, parallel plane. This will
make it easier to make and put in the horizontal
pieces at top and bottom. (This may sound pathetic,
but I am using rudimentary equipment).

Sounds like a good solution if you remember the stool has a front and
a back when using it as a step - splay the front legs forwards and
the rear legs sideways.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert_my_surname_here wrote in message


For standing on you don't want a three legged stool, very unstable.

For standing, you want a set of steps, not a stool, of any design.

Yes. And you never see three legged steps ... imagine what HSE would say
about that!

Of course some smarty pants will point out easels. They aren't stepped on.
Or he might point out that a ladder only has a three point loading -
ignoring that one of them, the wall, has a long/broad base.

The one HSE approved for my factory has a wide base at the bottom too - a
curved bar 1.2m long that can be adjusted for any irregularity in the power
floated concrete floor.

We're not going to convince SP, Colin, by our practical experience! Not
that I want to particularly, such a stubborn attitude is heading for a
well-deserved fall ... :-)

:-)

Colin Bignell

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert_my_surname_here wrote in message
...

Like Archimedes I ponder when I wallow - although I've never raced down the
street frightening the horses.

This morning I pondered about this matter.

The three-legged stool in milking parlours is more stable than a four legged
one because it was on an uneven floor. The OP wasn't wanting to stand on a
stool in a mistle.

But the milkmaid - or man - also only *sat* on the stool, it wasn't used for
reaching high. If it had been the centre of gravity of the combined stool
and body would have been much higher, thus increasing any instability
produced by the stool leaning to one side on the uneven floor.

In my experience ladders are used in mistles to reach anything higher than
full stretch of the body.

And only someone who hadn't thought the matter through would use a three
legged stool to stand on even in a household situation with a nice flat
floor.

We don't use three legged tables and even those oddities of three legged
chairs use different angles where legs attach to the seat, to make up for
their instability. They're not very popular either ...

Mary

The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

This morning I pondered about this matter.

You should have pondered a bit more because you are wrong.

The three-legged stool in milking parlours is more stable than a four
legged
one because it was on an uneven floor. The OP wasn't wanting to stand on a
stool in a mistle.

3 legged stools are found outside of milking parlours these days, not
inside, and uneven floors occur in all sorts of places where they might
be the most convenient thing to hand to stand on.

But the milkmaid - or man - also only *sat* on the stool, it wasn't
used for
reaching high. If it had been the centre of gravity of the combined stool
and body would have been much higher, thus increasing any instability
produced by the stool leaning to one side on the uneven floor.

The combined centre of gravity (whatever you mean by that) is a red
herring. If the stool doesn't fall over on its own accord it should be
possible with care to stand on it. If the floor is so uneven (or even if
not) that the stool needs assistance stick a brick or whatever under the
lower legs, it is easy enough to get a 3 legged object approximately
upright and stable which is more than can be said for a 4 legged object.

In my experience ladders are used in mistles to reach anything higher than
full stretch of the body.

Not ever having been in a working mistle I wouldn't know but my
experience both within and outside a barn is that the nearest thing to
hand is likely to be used for added reach be it bucket, crate, upended
pallet, or whatever, even a set of steps. But a ladder? Not when
anything else will do.

And only someone who hadn't thought the matter through would use a three
legged stool to stand on even in a household situation with a nice flat
floor.

I wasn't going to respond until I read the paragraph above but the
absurdity of this statement and the implied insult decided it for me.
Depending on the design of each a 3 legged stool can be safer even on a
level surface than a 4 legged stool. A 3 legged stool of reasonable
height typically has splayed legs so that the horizontal projection of
the seat onto the floor can fall wholly within the perimeter defined by
its 3 feet. Some 4 legged stools with similar sized seats have vertical
legs and thus an unstable overhang on all 4 sides of the seat should one
be foolish enough to stand on it.

We don't use three legged tables and even those oddities of three legged
chairs use different angles where legs attach to the seat, to make up for
their instability. They're not very popular either ...

You might not use a 3 legged table but tables with a centre support do
exist and AFAIK have 3 legs.

Even 3 wheeled cars are (allegedly) stable in normal use.

--
Roger

"Chris Nellist" wrote in
message ...
"nightjar" wrote in
:

"Chris Nellist" wrote
in message ...

[SNIP]

Could someone please help me with what sort of wood I need,
and where I might get it?

For a basic stool, joinery quality timber from a timber merchant.

Hi and many thanks for this. But what do I actually ask for?

You ask for joinery quality timber. Any wooden chair should give you a guide
to suitable sizes.

Can you give some examples of suitable stuff and what it's
called?

It is called joinery quality timber.

Colin Bignell

Roger wrote:


The combined centre of gravity (whatever you mean by that) is a red
herring. If the stool doesn't fall over on its own accord it should be
possible with care to stand on it. If the floor is so uneven (or even if



The key words here are _with care_. A wobblt four legged chain on a
uneven floor advertises its instability. A three legged stool on the
same floor appears deceptively stable until you carelessly step upon it.

--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

Can you give some examples of suitable stuff and what it's
called?

It is called joinery quality timber.

Elm is traditonally used for the horizontal parts of chairs
and tables. There's a lot of it about due to the disease. It is
stable so doesn't warp or split. It also looks good. I don't think
the legs are so critical. Any good close-grained wood unless you
intend to turn them on a lathe, then I don't know.

Peter Scott