Hi,

Shortly I want to upgrade my gas central heating from "vented" to "sealed"
(primary reason to eliminate the loft tank to make way for a future loft
conversion.....secondary benefit is that I'll be able to put a rad up
there.)

On investigating the "tide marks" in my header tank I calculate system
expansion to be about 3 litres in normal use. This is consistent with a
system volume of about 100 litres...which seems plausible to me (4 bed
house).

Good old bes.ltd.uk sell expansion vessels in 8, 12, 18, 24 litre (and
larger) sizes.

Is there a rule of thumb for specifying the correct expansion vessel? At
first glance an 8 litre one would seem adequate...but the price difference
is so minimal I'm inclined towards an 18 litre one (there's plenty of
space). Is there any penalty in using a vessel that's too large?

While I'm at it I want to put in "bleed valve" on a spur off the main boiler
flow (actually this is where the fill and vent pipes will be removed) for
easy introduction of Fernox. Is this normal practice? Seems to make a lot
of sense to me.

David

On Sun, 9 May 2004 20:45:09 +0100, "Vortex"
wrote:

Hi,

Shortly I want to upgrade my gas central heating from "vented" to "sealed"
(primary reason to eliminate the loft tank to make way for a future loft
conversion.....secondary benefit is that I'll be able to put a rad up
there.)

Both good reasons, and there are several more if you look in Ed
Sirett's FAQ on it.



On investigating the "tide marks" in my header tank I calculate system
expansion to be about 3 litres in normal use. This is consistent with a
system volume of about 100 litres...which seems plausible to me (4 bed
house).

Good old bes.ltd.uk sell expansion vessels in 8, 12, 18, 24 litre (and
larger) sizes.

Is there a rule of thumb for specifying the correct expansion vessel? At
first glance an 8 litre one would seem adequate...but the price difference
is so minimal I'm inclined towards an 18 litre one (there's plenty of
space). Is there any penalty in using a vessel that's too large?

You can certainly go larger, and there is no reason not to do so. I
have a boiler with a 10 litre vessel built in, but on calculating the
size, it might have been marginal, so I added another one also of 10
litres.



While I'm at it I want to put in "bleed valve" on a spur off the main boiler
flow (actually this is where the fill and vent pipes will be removed) for
easy introduction of Fernox. Is this normal practice? Seems to make a lot
of sense to me.

Yes you can do that, although you may prefer to put it at a higher
point. If you are adding a normal system dose of MB-1 it's 4 litres
and depending on layout and drain arrangements, you might not have
enough capacity below this point.

You will also need vents at high points anyway to let air out. These
can be manual or automatic.




David



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 May 2004 20:45:09 +0100, "Vortex"
wrote:

Hi,

Shortly I want to upgrade my gas central heating from "vented" to
"sealed"
(primary reason to eliminate the loft tank to make way for a future loft
conversion.....secondary benefit is that I'll be able to put a rad up
there.)

Both good reasons, and there are several more if you look in Ed
Sirett's FAQ on it.

Yup I've read it. Very useful


You can certainly go larger, and there is no reason not to do so. I
have a boiler with a 10 litre vessel built in, but on calculating the
size, it might have been marginal, so I added another one also of 10
litres.

18 litres it is then. £2.85 more than an 8 litre vessel!!


While I'm at it I want to put in "bleed valve" on a spur off the main
boiler
flow (actually this is where the fill and vent pipes will be removed) for
easy introduction of Fernox. Is this normal practice? Seems to make a
lot
of sense to me.

Yes you can do that, although you may prefer to put it at a higher
point. If you are adding a normal system dose of MB-1 it's 4 litres
and depending on layout and drain arrangements, you might not have
enough capacity below this point.

You will also need vents at high points anyway to let air out. These
can be manual or automatic.

Actually I was thinking of the Fernox Gel so the capacity is a non issue
really.

Now I have a new query. I've just been reading the boiler manual (Potterton
Prima F, 10 years old), and for a sealed system the diagram says the Safety
Valve, pressure gauge and axpansion vessel should be connected on the flow
side of the boiler but before the pump (makes sense). It shows the filling
point as being on the "return" side of the boiler. Why? I can see no good
reason.

David

On Sun, 09 May 2004 20:45:09 +0100, Vortex wrote:

Hi,

Shortly I want to upgrade my gas central heating from "vented" to "sealed"
(primary reason to eliminate the loft tank to make way for a future loft
conversion.....secondary benefit is that I'll be able to put a rad up
there.)

On investigating the "tide marks" in my header tank I calculate system
expansion to be about 3 litres in normal use. This is consistent with a
system volume of about 100 litres...which seems plausible to me (4 bed
house).

Good old bes.ltd.uk sell expansion vessels in 8, 12, 18, 24 litre (and
larger) sizes.

Is there a rule of thumb for specifying the correct expansion vessel? At
first glance an 8 litre one would seem adequate...but the price difference
is so minimal I'm inclined towards an 18 litre one (there's plenty of
space). Is there any penalty in using a vessel that's too large?

While I'm at it I want to put in "bleed valve" on a spur off the main boiler
flow (actually this is where the fill and vent pipes will be removed) for
easy introduction of Fernox. Is this normal practice? Seems to make a lot
of sense to me.


Sizing the vessel is one of the subjects I did not include in the FAQ
below. Some boiler manufactuers suggest about 10% of total system volume.
Set the initial dry side pressure to 1 bar. A 12 litre vessel wil then go
to 1.5 bar with and expansion of 3 litres. That's about right.

3 litres is about the expansion you would get on a 'typical' house with
around 100 litres total circuit contents.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Sun, 9 May 2004 21:37:45 +0100, "Vortex"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 9 May 2004 20:45:09 +0100, "Vortex"
wrote:

Hi,

Shortly I want to upgrade my gas central heating from "vented" to
"sealed"
(primary reason to eliminate the loft tank to make way for a future loft
conversion.....secondary benefit is that I'll be able to put a rad up
there.)

Both good reasons, and there are several more if you look in Ed
Sirett's FAQ on it.

Yup I've read it. Very useful


You can certainly go larger, and there is no reason not to do so. I
have a boiler with a 10 litre vessel built in, but on calculating the
size, it might have been marginal, so I added another one also of 10
litres.

18 litres it is then. £2.85 more than an 8 litre vessel!!

Exactly, and not really worth doing the sums.



While I'm at it I want to put in "bleed valve" on a spur off the main
boiler
flow (actually this is where the fill and vent pipes will be removed) for
easy introduction of Fernox. Is this normal practice? Seems to make a
lot
of sense to me.

Yes you can do that, although you may prefer to put it at a higher
point. If you are adding a normal system dose of MB-1 it's 4 litres
and depending on layout and drain arrangements, you might not have
enough capacity below this point.

You will also need vents at high points anyway to let air out. These
can be manual or automatic.

Actually I was thinking of the Fernox Gel so the capacity is a non issue
really.

OK. I've tended to use both the inhibitor and the system cleaner in
this range. If you are going to use the gels (and they are a bit
more expensive at around £30 rather than £20) then you don't need a
filling point specifically for the purpose.

Fernox recommends injecting them into a radiator through the vent even
under pressure. That can be messy. What I do is to turn off both
valves on a radiator and drain some water off - I have lockshield
valves with a drain cock on the radiator side on the tail. Then I
inject in the gel - they give you a little tube to do it.

Alternatively, if you are just filling, then inject before adding
water. It is best to fill and check for leaks for a week first
though.

You may find that when you first pressurise that you get some seeping
around spindles of radiator valves. Often, but not always, this can
be corrected by tightening the gland nut. Otherwise, be prepared to
replace.

When I did my system, I decided to replace all the radiator valves
pre-emptively enyway because one or two had shown signs of seeping
with teh open vented system. I used Pegler Terrier valves with
drains as mentioned and Invensys TRV4s for TRVs.




Now I have a new query. I've just been reading the boiler manual (Potterton
Prima F, 10 years old), and for a sealed system the diagram says the Safety
Valve, pressure gauge and axpansion vessel should be connected on the flow
side of the boiler but before the pump (makes sense). It shows the filling
point as being on the "return" side of the boiler. Why? I can see no good
reason.

Generally it doesn't make much difference. I fitted mine where the
header tank used to be.

If you buy a sealed system kit, the pressure gauge, filling connection
point and relief valve all fit to the same manifold.

One important thing is to make sure that you can vent the air
properly.







David


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Vortex" wrote in message
...

Actually I was thinking of the Fernox Gel so the capacity is a non issue
really.

Cheaper to buy a cheap pump-spray (Hozelok garden sprayer type) and
bog-standard liquid Fernox and use the sprayer to squirt the liguid in
through the filling loop connection point (with suitable adaptation to
sprayer to get it to 15mm or 1/2" BSP)

On Sun, 9 May 2004 22:14:42 +0100, "John Stumbles"
wrote:

"Vortex" wrote in message
...

Actually I was thinking of the Fernox Gel so the capacity is a non issue
really.

Cheaper to buy a cheap pump-spray (Hozelok garden sprayer type) and
bog-standard liquid Fernox and use the sprayer to squirt the liguid in
through the filling loop connection point (with suitable adaptation to
sprayer to get it to 15mm or 1/2" BSP)



My patented adaptation to do that is:

- Cut aluminium tube of sprayer lance.

- This fits an 8mm compression fitting.

- Short length of 8mm copper tube for other side of fitting

- 8mm solder female x 15mm male adaptor

- 15mm compression service valve with nut and olive on one side
discarded. A male to male compression coupler would do, but I had a
discarded service valve.

- Connect filling loop braided hose to above

- Pump away. (as it were).




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

the diagram says the Safety Valve, pressure gauge and axpansion
vessel should be connected on the flow side of the boiler but
before the pump (makes sense). It shows the filling point as
being on the "return" side of the boiler. Why? I can see no good reason.

It can make it easier to flush the system. Just close off the boiler
connection at the boiler isolation valve and you'll find the water supply
and drain are on opposite sides of the radiators, allowing you to flush out
each radiator by turning on the filling loop and using judicious use of the
valves.

Christian.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 May 2004 22:14:42 +0100, "John Stumbles"
wrote:

"Vortex" wrote in message
...

Actually I was thinking of the Fernox Gel so the capacity is a non
issue
really.

Cheaper to buy a cheap pump-spray (Hozelok garden sprayer type) and
bog-standard liquid Fernox and use the sprayer to squirt the liguid in
through the filling loop connection point (with suitable adaptation to
sprayer to get it to 15mm or 1/2" BSP)



My patented adaptation to do that is:

- Cut aluminium tube of sprayer lance.

- This fits an 8mm compression fitting.

- Short length of 8mm copper tube for other side of fitting

- 8mm solder female x 15mm male adaptor

- 15mm compression service valve with nut and olive on one side
discarded. A male to male compression coupler would do, but I had a
discarded service valve.

- Connect filling loop braided hose to above

- Pump away. (as it were).




.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Fernox do a filler kit, Wolseley centre catalogue number 603120. at £44 it
could sound expensive but if you are using cleanser and inhib every 3 years
it cuts down on the hassle. It comes with 2 rad vent adaptors (useless) but
the hose adapts to a filling loop hose quite readily with a 15 mail iron and
a 10mm insert.

Fernox do a filler kit, Wolseley centre catalogue number 603120. at
£44 it could sound expensive but if you are using cleanser and inhib
every 3 years it cuts down on the hassle.

Near the top of the system, I have a vertical stub of pipe, followed by a
isolation valve and then a tupperware beaker with a tank connector on it.
You just empty the system enough, open the valve and pour in the chemicals,
not forgetting to close the valve before activating the filling loop!

I make that around 79p for the valve, 35p for the beaker, 85p for a tank
connector, £1 for a reducing T and a few offcuts of copper. That's 3 quid,
far less than you will save each time you fill by buying standard chemicals
instead of expensive "sealed system" concentrates.

Christian.

On Mon, 10 May 2004 13:16:59 +0000 (UTC), "MIKE THORNE"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 9 May 2004 22:14:42 +0100, "John Stumbles"
wrote:

"Vortex" wrote in message
...

Actually I was thinking of the Fernox Gel so the capacity is a non
issue
really.

Cheaper to buy a cheap pump-spray (Hozelok garden sprayer type) and
bog-standard liquid Fernox and use the sprayer to squirt the liguid in
through the filling loop connection point (with suitable adaptation to
sprayer to get it to 15mm or 1/2" BSP)



My patented adaptation to do that is:

- Cut aluminium tube of sprayer lance.

- This fits an 8mm compression fitting.

- Short length of 8mm copper tube for other side of fitting

- 8mm solder female x 15mm male adaptor

- 15mm compression service valve with nut and olive on one side
discarded. A male to male compression coupler would do, but I had a
discarded service valve.

- Connect filling loop braided hose to above

- Pump away. (as it were).




.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Fernox do a filler kit, Wolseley centre catalogue number 603120. at £44 it
could sound expensive but if you are using cleanser and inhib every 3 years
it cuts down on the hassle. It comes with 2 rad vent adaptors (useless) but
the hose adapts to a filling loop hose quite readily with a 15 mail iron and
a 10mm insert.



True.... but in reality, all it is is a garden type sprayer with some
bits which with the above shopping list I can make in about 5 minutes
for £15.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 May 2004 13:16:59 +0000 (UTC), "MIKE THORNE"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 9 May 2004 22:14:42 +0100, "John Stumbles"
wrote:

"Vortex" wrote in message
...

Actually I was thinking of the Fernox Gel so the capacity is a non
issue
really.

Cheaper to buy a cheap pump-spray (Hozelok garden sprayer type) and
bog-standard liquid Fernox and use the sprayer to squirt the liguid in
through the filling loop connection point (with suitable adaptation to
sprayer to get it to 15mm or 1/2" BSP)



My patented adaptation to do that is:

- Cut aluminium tube of sprayer lance.

- This fits an 8mm compression fitting.

- Short length of 8mm copper tube for other side of fitting

- 8mm solder female x 15mm male adaptor

- 15mm compression service valve with nut and olive on one side
discarded. A male to male compression coupler would do, but I had a
discarded service valve.

- Connect filling loop braided hose to above

- Pump away. (as it were).




.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Fernox do a filler kit, Wolseley centre catalogue number 603120. at £44
it
could sound expensive but if you are using cleanser and inhib every 3
years
it cuts down on the hassle. It comes with 2 rad vent adaptors (useless)
but
the hose adapts to a filling loop hose quite readily with a 15 mail iron
and
a 10mm insert.



True.... but in reality, all it is is a garden type sprayer with some
bits which with the above shopping list I can make in about 5 minutes
for £15.

Fifteen squid?! Blimey, guv - they saw you coming didn't they?!
;-)

Reckon I paid about £7 for my sprayer, add say £1 for 15mm x 8mm s/r fitting
reducer (the bulge of the s/r on the 8mm end helps hold the sprayer pipe),
another quid for an all-plastic s/f tap connector to go onto a filling loop
connection, and 1p for a cable tie to hold the pipe onto the reducer.

On Mon, 10 May 2004 22:03:34 +0100, "John Stumbles"
wrote:



Fifteen squid?! Blimey, guv - they saw you coming didn't they?!
;-)

I dunno. Maybe it was about £12 for the sprayer, but all the bits
were junkbox items so I was inclusing having to buy them


Reckon I paid about £7 for my sprayer, add say £1 for 15mm x 8mm s/r fitting
reducer (the bulge of the s/r on the 8mm end helps hold the sprayer pipe),
another quid for an all-plastic s/f tap connector to go onto a filling loop
connection, and 1p for a cable tie to hold the pipe onto the reducer.

A cable tie? (sharp intake of breath).


I must admit that when I made mine I was looking to do more than just
deliver inhibitor into an unpressurised system.

For my workshop secondary circuit, I've used Fernox's Alphi11
inhibitor and antifreeze at an approx dilution of 30%. This
stuff is about £15 a container, so it added up to £60 worth of
chemical.

If I need to drain for any reason, I don't want to have to replace
this for a while. So I can drain to a set of 25 litre containers.
I can refill most of the system using a simple pump, up to the point
that pressurisation is needed. I use the sprayer accessory to
finally pressurise the system, which it will do, to over 2 bar, if you
pump hard enough.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl