Help! I'm in trouble - The Management's away and if I don't get the boiler
fixed by her return on Friday I shall really be in the .. er, .. you know!

Old (guessing 15 years +) Potterton Kingfisher CF60 boiler was smelling a
bit, so I thought it was due for a clean. Wasn't too worried about the
smell, 'cos it's in a little closed room with its own air vent, but I
haven't done anything to it for a couple of years, so decided to do a
"service" ...

Took the front off the combustion chamber and found a big sooty lump - sort
of cone-shaped, about 2" dia at the base x about 2 1/2" high - hanging down
(pointy bit towards the floor) from the left hand end of the heat exchanger.
I removed it and generally brushed and vacuumed everything clean, fitted a
new thermocouple and re-assembled. Unfortunately, the burner flame is very
yellow, and the fumes are worse than before.

I did kinda expect to have to replace the boiler before long, but with the
cost of Christmas and a big bill from the car menders last week and (pout,
whinge, self-pity etc.) I really can't afford to do so right now. Any
instant fix??

Hi,

The first thing you need to do is turn it off......... That means right now!
Your Potterton is putting yourself and the rest of your family in real
danger of carbon monoxide poisoning, especially as you can smell fumes. Then
get a gas engineer in to sort it

Andy


"Mike Faithfull" wrote in message
...
Help! I'm in trouble - The Management's away and if I don't get the
boiler
fixed by her return on Friday I shall really be in the .. er, .. you know!

Old (guessing 15 years +) Potterton Kingfisher CF60 boiler was smelling a
bit, so I thought it was due for a clean. Wasn't too worried about the
smell, 'cos it's in a little closed room with its own air vent, but I
haven't done anything to it for a couple of years, so decided to do a
"service" ...

Took the front off the combustion chamber and found a big sooty lump -
sort
of cone-shaped, about 2" dia at the base x about 2 1/2" high - hanging
down
(pointy bit towards the floor) from the left hand end of the heat
exchanger.
I removed it and generally brushed and vacuumed everything clean, fitted a
new thermocouple and re-assembled. Unfortunately, the burner flame is
very
yellow, and the fumes are worse than before.

I did kinda expect to have to replace the boiler before long, but with the
cost of Christmas and a big bill from the car menders last week and (pout,
whinge, self-pity etc.) I really can't afford to do so right now. Any
instant fix??

In article ,
Mike Faithfull wrote:
Took the front off the combustion chamber and found a big sooty lump -
sort of cone-shaped, about 2" dia at the base x about 2 1/2" high -
hanging down (pointy bit towards the floor) from the left hand end of
the heat exchanger. I removed it and generally brushed and vacuumed
everything clean, fitted a new thermocouple and re-assembled.
Unfortunately, the burner flame is very yellow, and the fumes are worse
than before.

You need to remove the top cover as well, and use a pukka flue brush to
clean the heat exchanger thoroughly. A heavy duty vacuum cleaner will help
to keep down the mess. ;-)

I also remove the burners and give them a good soak in hot water and
washing up liquid, and scrub clean with a nailbrush. Examine the jets with
a magnifying glass if necessary to make sure they really are clear after
this.

Make sure any gaskets are undamaged on replacement - you can buy the
generic material used for them at a PM - along with the flue brush.

These boilers go on forever. If it starts leaking, it's usually the 'O'
rings between the heat exchanger segments that have failed, and these can
be replaced.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"Mike Faithfull" writes:
Help! I'm in trouble - The Management's away and if I don't get the boiler
fixed by her return on Friday I shall really be in the .. er, .. you know!

Old (guessing 15 years +) Potterton Kingfisher CF60 boiler was smelling a
bit, so I thought it was due for a clean. Wasn't too worried about the
smell, 'cos it's in a little closed room with its own air vent, but I
haven't done anything to it for a couple of years, so decided to do a
"service" ...

Took the front off the combustion chamber and found a big sooty lump - sort
of cone-shaped, about 2" dia at the base x about 2 1/2" high - hanging down
(pointy bit towards the floor) from the left hand end of the heat exchanger.
I removed it and generally brushed and vacuumed everything clean, fitted a
new thermocouple and re-assembled. Unfortunately, the burner flame is very
yellow, and the fumes are worse than before.

I did kinda expect to have to replace the boiler before long, but with the
cost of Christmas and a big bill from the car menders last week and (pout,
whinge, self-pity etc.) I really can't afford to do so right now. Any
instant fix??

Yes, a proper service, of which you did only one bit.
I suggest you call in a CORGI to service it, as you don't
seem to meet the legal criteria to service it yourself.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Yes, a proper service, of which you did only one bit.
I suggest you call in a CORGI to service it, as you don't
seem to meet the legal criteria to service it yourself.

The first time I used a 'CORGI' for a service - got from Yellow Pages - he
condemned the boiler and left it in pieces. Said it was incorrectly
installed, burning the floor and had improper ventilation. (It's an RS)
And it would be cheaper to simply replace it.

Contacted Potterton and they said he was telling lies, basically. Not
surprising given it was installed by a very experienced fitter -
unfortunately by then retired.

Since it was in bits, I cleaned it all up carefully, and replaced all the
gaskets which he'd wrecked - and needed new screws for the front which
he'd obviously taken with him.

Still working fine about 20 years down the line - I just give it a good
clean every few years and keep an eye on the colour of the flame.

--
*I don't have a solution, but I admire your problem. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

So what stage are you at is it running OK now?

I am conscerned that you may not have cleaned all the flue ways and air intake path. Also conscerned that the inspection plates may not be sealed. What I suggest you do is, with boiler turned off, place a smoke bomb in the inlet flue duct and watch to see that there is a good flow of smoke back out of the exhaust duct. Simultaneously inspect the seals on the boiler to ensure absolutely no smoke gets out into the room.

Then, assuming you have washed the burner good to remove any lint and clear the holes of the burner including the little flame retension holes, that the flame picture is good, now you need to check the burner pressure and or gas rate it. If it is working according to the Watson House Plate, that is the burner pressure is set where they suggest and the gas rate comes out right, then you've cracked it.

All this advise is given on the basis that to carry out any of it you must be a competent person and you aren't doing this for profit.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 14:52:10 +0000, Paul Barker wrote:


So what stage are you at is it running OK now?

I am conscerned that you may not have cleaned all the flue ways and air
intake path. Also conscerned that the inspection plates may not be
sealed. What I suggest you do is, with boiler turned off, place a smoke
bomb in the inlet flue duct and watch to see that there is a good flow
of smoke back out of the exhaust duct. Simultaneously inspect the seals
on the boiler to ensure absolutely no smoke gets out into the room.


It seem quite a few posters have missed the fact that this boiler is a
Pott. Kingfisher CF 60.

The CF means Conventional Flue -i.e. air comes in to the room through a
vent and the gases leave via a vertical flue pipe.

So a competant service for this model will include spillage tess at the
draught diverter and a flue flow test. The latter might be omitted if all
was in good order but given the amount of soot everything is in the frame.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article . uk,
Ed Sirett wrote:
It seem quite a few posters have missed the fact that this boiler is a
Pott. Kingfisher CF 60.

The CF means Conventional Flue -i.e. air comes in to the room through a
vent and the gases leave via a vertical flue pipe.

I certainly did. I just saw Kingfisher. ;-(

So a competant service for this model will include spillage tess at the
draught diverter and a flue flow test. The latter might be omitted if
all was in good order but given the amount of soot everything is in the
frame.

I'm certainly rather blase about servicing on an RS type - but *not* on a
CF model. I had a dear pal damn near killed by 'pro' kitchen fitters
boxing in his CF boiler with one of their standard units - which had no
ventilation.

However, I'd still start by making sure everything was squeaky clean.

--
*Laugh alone and the world thinks you're an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
The first time I used a 'CORGI' for a service - got from Yellow Pages - he
condemned the boiler and left it in pieces. Said it was incorrectly
installed, burning the floor and had improper ventilation. (It's an RS)
And it would be cheaper to simply replace it.

Yes I know a lot of CORGI's are not trustworthy (had experience
of one who condemed my grandmother's boiler when it only needed
a new thermocouple). However, if someone asks questions who is
clearly not going to come under the compitency requirements of
the law, it's difficult to think of anything else to suggest,
although I like your idea of calling the manufacturer which I
hadn't thought of.

I didn't think it was safe to suggest the person service the
boiler themselves. At a minimum they need the boiler servicing
manual, and to understand it. Your advise went a bit further
than the original poster's efforts, but failed to mention
things like checking the flue, which could be the cause of the
problem, and life threatening. The system needs a complete
service, and not just doing one or two things until it seems
to be working again whilst some fundamental problem may remain
unnoticed.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
I didn't think it was safe to suggest the person service the
boiler themselves. At a minimum they need the boiler servicing
manual, and to understand it. Your advise went a bit further
than the original poster's efforts, but failed to mention
things like checking the flue, which could be the cause of the
problem, and life threatening. The system needs a complete
service, and not just doing one or two things until it seems
to be working again whilst some fundamental problem may remain
unnoticed.

Well, yes, but it's about as basic a boiler as it gets. Take the top off
and you can see clearly inside the terminal. I'd just sort of assumed
anyone willing to have a go would then at least have a good look at
everything.

I'd agree it would be best to use a proper fitter to do all this, but
having gone this far I'd say it worth just doing the job as thoroughly as
possible - the chances of getting anyone 'good' in within the next week or
so are remote.

So since the boiler's already in a 'dangerous' state, and the OP knows
this, a little help on at least how to cleaning it all properly won't go
amiss.

--
*Microsoft broke Volkswagen's record: They only made 21.4 million bugs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Yes, a proper service, of which you did only one bit.
I suggest you call in a CORGI to service it, as you don't
seem to meet the legal criteria to service it yourself.

The first time I used a 'CORGI' for a service - got from Yellow Pages - he
condemned the boiler and left it in pieces. Said it was incorrectly
installed, burning the floor and had improper ventilation. (It's an RS)
And it would be cheaper to simply replace it.

Contacted Potterton and they said he was telling lies, basically. Not
surprising given it was installed by a very experienced fitter -
unfortunately by then retired.

Since it was in bits, I cleaned it all up carefully, and replaced all the
gaskets which he'd wrecked - and needed new screws for the front which
he'd obviously taken with him.

Still working fine about 20 years down the line - I just give it a good
clean every few years and keep an eye on the colour of the flame.

Thanks Dave (and others) ... I have taken heed of your reply and am about to
re-assemble everything after stripping out the burners and supply pipe etc
to give them a jolly good wash in the kitchen sink. None of the holes were
blocked as far as I could see, but there was a lot of powdery residue on the
inside of the burner tubes. A friend locally suggested I should check for
an obstructed flue, but that would not account for the properties of the
problem - the combustion chamber would be much more evenly sooted up, not
just at one end. I need to take a little more care, I think, to ensure the
heat exchanger is cleaned - I didn't take enough time over it last night.

Right, that's me cuppa tea finished, back on the job ..................

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:59:42 +0000, Mike Faithfull wrote:

Help! I'm in trouble - The Management's away and if I don't get the boiler
fixed by her return on Friday I shall really be in the .. er, .. you know!

Old (guessing 15 years +) Potterton Kingfisher CF60 boiler was smelling a
bit, so I thought it was due for a clean. Wasn't too worried about the
smell, 'cos it's in a little closed room with its own air vent, but I
haven't done anything to it for a couple of years, so decided to do a
"service" ...

Took the front off the combustion chamber and found a big sooty lump - sort
of cone-shaped, about 2" dia at the base x about 2 1/2" high - hanging down
(pointy bit towards the floor) from the left hand end of the heat exchanger.
I removed it and generally brushed and vacuumed everything clean, fitted a
new thermocouple and re-assembled. Unfortunately, the burner flame is very
yellow, and the fumes are worse than before.

I did kinda expect to have to replace the boiler before long, but with the
cost of Christmas and a big bill from the car menders last week and (pout,
whinge, self-pity etc.) I really can't afford to do so right now. Any
instant fix??

A boiler like this would (if I had not got the opportunity right away to
fix it) get an ID notice (see FAQ). A proportion of registered fitters
(especially when they work for large companies) would not even consider
that it is worth repairing they would simply give you a quote for its
replacement and leave it turned off.

It needs a thorough strip down, likely the root cause of the trouble is
that the gauze inside the mixing tubes is blocked with fine crap.

With all due politeness if you need to ask about what to do with lumps of
soot in boilers then you need to get in outside help.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:59:42 +0000, Mike Faithfull wrote:


With all due politeness if you need to ask about what to do with lumps of
soot in boilers then you need to get in outside help.

Point politely made and well taken, Ed! I rather took the brake off my
typing hands before the brain was fully in gear - put it down to shock after
seeing that great lump of sooty crud hanging there! I think I have resolved
the initial problem - apart from some remaining soot in the fins of the heat
exchanger which has proved difficult to remove - and the presence of fumes
is now most likely due to leakage around a poorly sealed front plate on the
combustion chamber. As stated, replacing that seal is a job for tomorrow.
If that then fails the "nose test" it will be time to call on somebody who
has both the expertise and the necessary tools and equipment to properly
diagnose and fix the problem.

I think I have resolved
the initial problem - apart from some remaining soot in the fins of the
heat
exchanger which has proved difficult to remove - and the presence of fumes
is now most likely due to leakage around a poorly sealed front plate on
the
combustion chamber.

I had exactly the same problem with the same boiler - a Corgi guy came out
and gave it a service, but it still burnt with a very yellow flame and
smelt, so he condemned it (said I should replace it with a combi as it was
impossible to get the parts, and must be about 20 years old...)

It turned out the fins were still sooted. The Corgi had cleaned a lot with a
brush and on first inspection the heat exchanger looked clear. However, I
spent another hour cleaning it until the fins were completely clear (with a
plastic ruler - the soot was too baked on for a brush) - lots more soot came
off and then the flame was perfect again.

Clean the fins completely and you may find your problems disappear!

regards,
Andrew

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:59:42 -0000, "Mike Faithfull"
wrote:

Help! I'm in trouble - The Management's away and if I don't get the boiler
fixed by her return on Friday I shall really be in the .. er, .. you know!

Old (guessing 15 years +) Potterton Kingfisher CF60 boiler was smelling a
bit, so I thought it was due for a clean. Wasn't too worried about the
smell, 'cos it's in a little closed room with its own air vent, but I
haven't done anything to it for a couple of years, so decided to do a
"service" ...

There was a technical bulletin issued about a year or more ago
relating to Pott Kingfishers and sooting up. The urgent tech bulletin
was issued as a result of a fatality as far as i can recall. My info
on this is a bit sketchy as my memory is not so good and i cant recall
if the bulletin was issued by Potterton or British Gas. It may be that
it has sotted due to lack of or incorrect servicing or it may be that
the problem falls within the scope of the bulletin and mods are
required ??

joe

You are in SERIOUS danger of Corbon Monoxide poisoning. The sooting, fumes and flame colour are usualy caused by lack of ventillation or fluing problems. Check that your air vent is not blocked in any way ....even a heavily dusty one can prevent air from entering. If the boiler is in a cupboard thereshould be vents in the door or wall. CALL IN AN ENGINEER - Could save your life!!

In message , Andy the Gas
writes


I did kinda expect to have to replace the boiler before long, but with
the
cost of Christmas and a big bill from the car menders last week and
(pout,
whinge, self-pity etc.) I really can't afford to do so right now. Any
instant fix??


You are in SERIOUS danger of Corbon Monoxide poisoning. The sooting,
fumes and flame colour are usualy caused by lack of ventillation or
fluing problems. Check that your air vent is not blocked in any way
....even a heavily dusty one can prevent air from entering. If the
boiler is in a cupboard thereshould be vents in the door or wall. CALL
IN AN ENGINEER - Could save your life!!

No - call in a gas fitter, some of them have a clue


--
geoff

Andy the Gas wrote:

You are in SERIOUS danger of Corbon Monoxide poisoning. The sooting,

bla bla bla

You might have just saved his life except for one tiny detail....

You are replying to a thread that was started at the end of 2004 and
already had plenty of sensible answers.

Grrrr diybanter numpties!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , John
Rumm writes
Andy the Gas wrote:

You are in SERIOUS danger of Corbon Monoxide poisoning. The sooting,

bla bla bla

You might have just saved his life except for one tiny detail....

You are replying to a thread that was started at the end of 2004 and
already had plenty of sensible answers.

Grrrr diybanter numpties!

I did wonder where the original post had gone



--
geoff

raden wrote:

Grrrr diybanter numpties!

I did wonder where the original post had gone

It went thatterway-

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.d-...cfac37f12e7482



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , John
Rumm writes
raden wrote:

Grrrr diybanter numpties!

I did wonder where the original post had gone

It went thatterway-

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.d-...aab1759eefcc46
6a/fecfac37f12e7482?lnk=st&q=Help%2C+sooty+boiler&rnu m=1&hl=en#fecfac37f
12e7482

I'll get me time machine ...

--
geoff