Is it OK to put a PIR detector in the corner of a room facing a window?
I know there may be a chance of false alarm, but if say Dual-tec PIR's
are used, this will surely prevent false alarms.

Reason for Window facing is, naturally as this is a possible entry
point, and it would act as a visual deterrent to the prying eye.

TIA

--
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On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 00:34:30 GMT, "Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk"
strung together this:

Is it OK to put a PIR detector in the corner of a room facing a window?
I know there may be a chance of false alarm, but if say Dual-tec PIR's
are used, this will surely prevent false alarms.

6 and two 3's on this one. Ideally, I'd say no. If there are no other
options then I've not had a major problem with false alarming from
window facing PIR's.
If I had to the DT's would be preferred.

Reason for Window facing is, naturally as this is a possible entry
point, and it would act as a visual deterrent to the prying eye.

Generally, if the PIR is set up correctly no-one will get too far
without setting it off. If security is an issue then I would face the
PIR away from the window but also fit a viper to the window frame.
I don't think that being able to see the PIR will deter anyone that
wants to get in anyway.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Lurch wrote:

Generally, if the PIR is set up correctly no-one will get too far
without setting it off. If security is an issue then I would face the
PIR away from the window but also fit a viper to the window frame.
I don't think that being able to see the PIR will deter anyone that
wants to get in anyway.

Thanks for that Lurch.
Cheers

--
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"Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk" wrote in message
k...
Is it OK to put a PIR detector in the corner of a room facing a window?
I know there may be a chance of false alarm, but if say Dual-tec PIR's
are used, this will surely prevent false alarms.

Reason for Window facing is, naturally as this is a possible entry
point, and it would act as a visual deterrent to the prying eye.

TIA


It's preferable to keep direct sunlight out of the lens of a PIR, even
Micro-Passives, as it can actually blind the detector from doing its job.
It can also create a burn spot on the detector that makes the PIR totally
blind to heated objects all the time.

The best method of keeping people away from a window is by planting jaggy
bushes, like wild roses and the kin, so that they don't have an option of
getting near unless they want sore parts on their body.

The whole point of security is to keep the people away from the perimeter of
the house in the first place. If you create shaded areas where the
neighbours can't see a door or window, or these spots aren't clearly seen
from the road. Then these are the points where a bandit will take the
opportunity of attacking because they know they are not overlooked by a
prying old biddy in the next house. So these points should be made more
secure with things that are difficult to by-pass unless drawing attention to
yourself when trying to gain access to them.

Please don't rely souly on an alarm system to deter the professional
burglar.

"Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk" wrote in message
k...
Is it OK to put a PIR detector in the corner of a room facing a window?
I know there may be a chance of false alarm, but if say Dual-tec PIR's are
used, this will surely prevent false alarms.

Reason for Window facing is, naturally as this is a possible entry point,
and it would act as a visual deterrent to the prying eye.

We have several PIR's in this house, and ditto the last house, which are in
the corner of a room facing diagonally across the room towards large
windows. Never been a problem, but none of them receives direct sunlight
(that would be bad). In fact, if the PIR's are located fairly high up then
they should never receive direct sunlight unless you are on an completely
open and unobstructed hilltop location and the PIR's face either the rising
or setting sun!

We have some external PIR's for outdoor zone lighting, and they most
certainly do false trigger if the sun comes out from behind a cloud and
shines directly on them. Not a problem, they are designed for this and have
built-in light sensors so that they don't switch the external lights on
unless it is already dark.

HTH

Rick

BigWallop wrote:

Please don't rely souly on an alarm system to deter the professional
burglar.

We have 2 dogs as well.

:¬)

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Richard Sterry wrote:

(that would be bad). In fact, if the PIR's are located fairly high up then
they should never receive direct sunlight unless you are on an completely
open and unobstructed hilltop location and the PIR's face either the rising
or setting sun!

That would rule out one corner of the lounge then!
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0001.jpg
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0002.jpg
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0007.jpg

:¬)


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Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk wrote:
Richard Sterry wrote:

(that would be bad). In fact, if the PIR's are located fairly high up
then they should never receive direct sunlight unless you are on an
completely open and unobstructed hilltop location and the PIR's face
either the rising or setting sun!


That would rule out one corner of the lounge then!
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0001.jpg
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0002.jpg
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0007.jpg

:¬)


As we are on the subject of PIR locations I have an odd problem. I have
a PIR high in the corner facing a large SSW french doors. I have been
getting bunches of false alarms very intermittently. After a couple of
years, swopping the PIR with one in another room, and changing the
connection inside the alarm box I have realised that these false alarms
only occur during the period around the Spring and Autumn equinoxes when
it is sunny. There is realy no other position I can put this alarm and
wonder if anyone has any suggestions

"Broadback" wrote in message
...
Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk wrote:
Richard Sterry wrote:

(that would be bad). In fact, if the PIR's are located fairly high up
then they should never receive direct sunlight unless you are on an
completely open and unobstructed hilltop location and the PIR's face
either the rising or setting sun!


That would rule out one corner of the lounge then!
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0001.jpg
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0002.jpg
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0007.jpg

:¬)


As we are on the subject of PIR locations I have an odd problem. I have a
PIR high in the corner facing a large SSW french doors. I have been
getting bunches of false alarms very intermittently. After a couple of
years, swopping the PIR with one in another room, and changing the
connection inside the alarm box I have realised that these false alarms
only occur during the period around the Spring and Autumn equinoxes when
it is sunny. There is realy no other position I can put this alarm and
wonder if anyone has any suggestions

You cloud try a combined detector using PIR & another movement detection
method. Alternatively try a double-knock module.

Rgds

Andy R

PeTe33 wrote
| BigWallop wrote:
| Please don't rely souly on an alarm system to deter the
| professional burglar.
| We have 2 dogs as well.
| :¬)

Dogs are anybody's friend for sausages poked through the letterbox.

On one of those "burglar tries to burgle your house" programmes, owners
thought dogs would be good deterrent/alarm. Dogs greeted burglar as best
friend, waggy waggy slaver.

If you want security you need Siamese cats or geese.

Owain

Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk wrote:

BigWallop wrote:

Please don't rely souly on an alarm system to deter the professional
burglar.
We have 2 dogs as well.

:¬)

If you only have PIRs and your dogs have the run of the house, you will find
it difficult to set your alarm as the dogs will activate the internal PIRs.
You would be better off fitting other forms of perimeter protection.

If the alarm is to protect the house while the dogs are absent you would be
prudent to follow BigWallop's advice about deterrent shrubbery etc.

Also bear in mind that your dogs might make a lot of noise, but are unlikely
to be much of a deterrent to a burglar who is also a dog owner.

--
Geoff Beale
Extract digit to email.

Geoff Beale wrote:

If you only have PIRs and your dogs have the run of the house, you will find
it difficult to set your alarm as the dogs will activate the internal PIRs.
You would be better off fitting other forms of perimeter protection.

I am going to use "pet friendly" PIR's for the dogs part, and normal
ones for the bedrooms which are on ground floor and an obvious entry point.

If the alarm is to protect the house while the dogs are absent you would be
prudent to follow BigWallop's advice about deterrent shrubbery etc.

Unfortunately this isn't practical, as the bedroom windows are over a patio.

Also bear in mind that your dogs might make a lot of noise, but are unlikely
to be much of a deterrent to a burglar who is also a dog owner.

I would suggest, a Dog owner would be very aware that a dog(s) while
cute and cuddly when with their owners can and most often are, a
completely differrent beast when in a hose by themselves.

One of ours is a G/DaneXGreyhound with a very "Big dog" attitude and
bark when he's on his own.

Fitting the alarm is more of a "in the future" thing as once my floor is
down upstaris I won't want to be running any cables, so I'm just
covering all angles.

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On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:49:41 +0000, Broadback
strung together this:

As we are on the subject of PIR locations I have an odd problem. I have
a PIR high in the corner facing a large SSW french doors. I have been
getting bunches of false alarms very intermittently. After a couple of
years, swopping the PIR with one in another room, and changing the
connection inside the alarm box I have realised that these false alarms
only occur during the period around the Spring and Autumn equinoxes when
it is sunny. There is realy no other position I can put this alarm and
wonder if anyone has any suggestions

Move the PIR to somewhere not fracing the french windows. Also add a
vibe to the doors.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 14:18:22 GMT, "Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk"
strung together this:

I am going to use "pet friendly" PIR's for the dogs part, and normal
ones for the bedrooms which are on ground floor and an obvious entry point.

Oh dear. I wouldn't use pet PIRs, either ensure the dogs are secured
in a room protected by perimeter protection, or protect the whole
house with perimeter protection if the dogs have the full run.

Fitting the alarm is more of a "in the future" thing as once my floor is
down upstaris I won't want to be running any cables, so I'm just
covering all angles.

I'd wire for PIR's not facing the window and full perimeter
protection, so you've got all angles covered.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Lurch wrote:

Also add a
vibe to the doors.

That may or may not please his wife!!
8¬P"

--
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Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk wrote:

Lurch wrote:

Also add a
vibe to the doors.


That may or may not please his wife!!
8¬P"

;-))

"Broadback" wrote in message
...
Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk wrote:
Richard Sterry wrote:

(that would be bad). In fact, if the PIR's are located fairly high up
then they should never receive direct sunlight unless you are on an
completely open and unobstructed hilltop location and the PIR's face
either the rising or setting sun!


That would rule out one corner of the lounge then!
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0001.jpg
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0002.jpg
http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/NEWpete0007.jpg

:¬)


As we are on the subject of PIR locations I have an odd problem. I have
a PIR high in the corner facing a large SSW french doors. I have been
getting bunches of false alarms very intermittently. After a couple of
years, swopping the PIR with one in another room, and changing the
connection inside the alarm box I have realised that these false alarms
only occur during the period around the Spring and Autumn equinoxes when
it is sunny. There is realy no other position I can put this alarm and
wonder if anyone has any suggestions


Change the PIR for a dual-tech Microwave Passive Infra-red detector. These
work by ignoring rate of rise heat sources unless the heat source suddenly
move. Great for a situation such as you describe above.

It might also be good to check that you have no radiators, mirrors and other
reflective surfaces, like TV screens or glass panel doors, on the opposite
wall from the detector. These can cause heat spots on walls, the floor or
even furniture and so create an air current directly in front of the
detector lens.

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 19:11:36 GMT, "BigWallop"
strung together this:

It might also be good to check that you have no radiators, mirrors and other
reflective surfaces, like TV screens or glass panel doors, on the opposite
wall from the detector. These can cause heat spots on walls, the floor or
even furniture and so create an air current directly in front of the
detector lens.

Read the post you thick ****, it's on a wall opposite french windows.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 19:11:36 GMT, "BigWallop"
strung together this:

It might also be good to check that you have no radiators, mirrors and
other
reflective surfaces, like TV screens or glass panel doors, on the
opposite
wall from the detector. These can cause heat spots on walls, the floor
or
even furniture and so create an air current directly in front of the
detector lens.

Read the post you thick ****, it's on a wall opposite french windows.


Where about in the thread does it say French Windows?

PIR Sensors should be looking at windows. period....

They should be mounted no higher than 7 feet from the floor.

They MUST NOT be mounted above radiators or high heat source.

They should be mounted so that they angle slightly down. ie. the top of the sensor should be slightly away from the wall.

Make sure the sensivitivity is adjusted correctly.

If you follow this and still get a false alarm..... buy a better quality sensor ie.: dual tec/ microwave.

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:21:51 +0000, Andy-
strung together this:

PIR Sensors should be looking at windows. period....

Well, debatable. There's two views on this but it comes down to
manufacturers specs, some say no but most say try to avooid where
possible facing the PIR at the window.

They MUST NOT be mounted above radiators or high heat source.

Couldn't agree more on that one.

They should be mounted so that they angle slightly down. ie. the top of
the sensor should be slightly away from the wall.

No, the PIR's are designed to fit flat to the wall at the height
stated in the instructions, some are adjustable internally for
different height mounting options. If it is mounted at a different
height to that which is recommended then maybe some slight angling is
required but always walk test the device before making any adjustments
as most will work fine at or around the recommended height.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

I'm wondering now if you are referring to the sort of alarm systems that you get from Wickes for 49.99 :-/ money in the bin bank

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:21:05 +0000, Andy-
strung together this:

This is not just my opinion but a requirement of NACOSS, the PIR should
be facing the highest security risk in the protected area. If the room
has windows this should be considered priority. If anyone is using a
PIR which is being activated through a closed window then the best
place for it is in the bin (it's useless) Dual tec/ microwave PIR's
will not "false alarm through glass"
-
Yes but NSI and SSAIB both say equipment should be installed as per
manufacturers specs, which often say avoid facing at windows so as I
say there's opposing views.

They are designed to fit flush indeed.... BUT 95% of walls that I fit
PIR's to slightly slant back, therefore if you fit the PIR tight to the
wall using the top and bottom screw holes you will find that the PIR is
slightly slanting back as well...

Well, that's fair enough but you didn't say that to start with. By
contrast, if the wall leans forward then the opposite is true so it's
a case of installing the equipment as per thhe environment dictates.
There isn't a blanket rule.

By just fixing with the bottom two
screw holes and slightly angling the PIR down will ensure better
sensitivity!

Depends, again environmental conditions will dictate what works best.

If you mount it too high it won't do its job properly!
I think you'll find the internal adjustment is only for distance
sectors.

Nope, height, otherwise I wouldn't have said there are adjustments for
height.

I'm wondering now if you are referring to the sort of alarm systems
that you get from Wickes for 49.99 :-/ money in the bin bank

Whatever....
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

I've probably fitted the best part of two thousand PIR's and I've never had a problem and as yet NACOSS or SSAIB have not talked about throwing me out of their club......... :-\

In article ,
Andy- writes:

I've probably fitted the best part of two thousand PIR's and I've never
had a problem and as yet NACOSS or SSAIB have not talked about throwing
me out of their club......... :-\

Your posts look interesting but they're pretty impossible to read.
Could you possibly use a more normal quoting convension? Most of
what you write appears as quoted text indistinguishable from what
you are following up.

--
Andrew Gabriel
Consultant Software Engineer

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:13:04 +0000, Andy-
strung together this:

If you can find me a (non happy shopper) PIR manafacturers instalation
sheet that says DO NOT FACE TOWARDS WINDOWS I'll eat the PIR for you
:-)-

Texecom Reflex, (not Happy Shopper, more Bewise but still....).
You can email the video of you eating one if you like, address is in
the header.

If you mount it too high it won't do its job properly!
I think you'll find the internal adjustment is only for distance
sectors.-

I know, read what I write, FIT DEVICES TO MANUFACTURERS SPECS.

OK!! So a PIR mounted 15 feet high in an industrial unit will work
fine with a little internal adjustment??? Right!!-

When did I say that?
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:44:19 +0000, Lurch
strung together this:

I think you'll find the internal adjustment is only for distance
sectors.-

and, granted some PIRs have distance settings, but some are adjustable
for height. If they weren't I wouldn't say they were.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

"Andy-" wrote in message
...

PIR Sensors should be looking at windows. period....

They should be mounted no higher than 7 feet from the floor.

They MUST NOT be mounted above radiators or high heat source.

They should be mounted so that they angle slightly down. ie. the top of
the sensor should be slightly away from the wall.

Make sure the sensivitivity is adjusted correctly.

If you follow this and still get a false alarm..... buy a better
quality sensor ie.: dual tec/ microwave.

Andy-


And you've never seen a detector with a look down lens? :-))

Andy- wrote:

I've probably fitted the best part of two thousand PIR's and I've never
had a problem and as yet NACOSS or SSAIB have not talked about throwing
me out of their club......... :-\

Well, I now have wires running to window facind and non-window facing
corners of the rooms, and it's time I decided just where to put the
PIR's but I now have a dliemma.

Assuming a dualtec wouldn't give FA's to outside IR sources, and the
IR's are safe from "sun blinding" I have been made aware that PIR's are
most effective when the IR source is crossing the detector, so, in
theory, a PIR mounted on the same wall as the window might detect
movement better than one facing(ish) the window.

Either way, both will pick up somone were they to get past the window
and into the room.

Should I just toss a coin WRT where to put them?

--
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:46:37 GMT, "Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk"
strung together this:

Should I just toss a coin WRT where to put them?

Sort of, as you've spotted it's not as clear cut as you thought!

First thing is read the instructions, some explicitely say don't face
a window and some say try and avoid it.

It also depends what detector you've got, if you've got some decent
quads then they'd be more resistant to FA's facing a window than some
cheapo B&Q ones. I'm using the Texecom Prestige Range at the mo for
domestics and they're pretty good all round.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

In article ,
"Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk" writes:
Andy- wrote:

I've probably fitted the best part of two thousand PIR's and I've never
had a problem and as yet NACOSS or SSAIB have not talked about throwing
me out of their club......... :-\

Well, I now have wires running to window facind and non-window facing
corners of the rooms, and it's time I decided just where to put the
PIR's but I now have a dliemma.

Assuming a dualtec wouldn't give FA's to outside IR sources, and the
IR's are safe from "sun blinding" I have been made aware that PIR's are
most effective when the IR source is crossing the detector, so, in
theory, a PIR mounted on the same wall as the window might detect
movement better than one facing(ish) the window.

If I'm picturing your setup correctly, neither position is
better with regards to crossing the coverage area circumferentially
rather than radially. Even for "look down" detectors, the look down
is not generally not very wide area, which is where your windows
are, so I would avoid positioning it in the corner between the
windows, and rather use the corner facing the windows. Also, some
have a coverage angle which is struggling to reach 90º, which
would leave the windows uncovered, although a thief could probably
do little without eventually entering the coverage area.

Most of my dual techs face windows, and have never false alarmed due
to something outside. I tested doing external window cleaning type
operations at install time, and my real window cleaner has never
triggered them. Make sure the dualtechs are set to alarm only on
both PIR and microwave detection though -- some are switchable to
trigger on only one or the other which isn't what you want. I can't
remember which, but one of microwave or PIR does see through glass.
None of mine can get direct sunlight on them through the window though.

This is probably slightly dated now in terms of product availablity,
but here's a review I did of three different dual tech detectors.
You might still find it useful to see how features can vary between
them even so...
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...5f61bd5da0c158
One other thing I can add subsequently is that the Focus dualtech
is also susceptable to a bare compact fluorescent tube in view
which would trip it's anti-masking/internal-fault/tamper contacts.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Have you actually bought the PIR's yet? If yes what are they?

I'd say you have two deciding factors now.....

A quality PIR can go in either corner
A cheapy maybe should go in the "hidden" corner

One other thing to keep in mind... I guess you will be putting the wires above the ceiling?? If you happen to find a mass of 240v cable above one of the corners,,, go for the other corner

Andy- wrote:
Have you actually bought the PIR's yet? If yes what are they?

Nope, not yet, hence the reason for my dilemma.

Discovered the following last night
http://www.security-installer.co.uk/archiveSearch.asp

Which gives plenty of info on types.
So, which is "best" with most current technology?

I'd say you have two deciding factors now.....

A quality PIR can go in either corner
A cheapy maybe should go in the "hidden" corner

One other thing to keep in mind... I guess you will be putting the
wires above the ceiling?? If you happen to find a mass of 240v cable
above one of the corners,,, go for the other corner

Ring main runs fairly close to the outside wall, so at worst about 6"
from PIR location (seperated by 4" rockwool and ceiling)

TIA
Pete

--
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6 inches from anything to do with the alarm is advisable,,
Have a look at this site: http://www.pyronix.co.uk/

It's hard to advise which system etc without knowing your property....

eg: house, bungalow, number of rooms eyc....
--

Andy- wrote:

It's hard to advise which system etc without knowing your property....

eg: house, bungalow, number of rooms eyc....

I'll re-post once I have doctored a few pictures of the outside and
inside plans of the house.

Basically it's a bunga-house built into/on a hill so from the front it's
a bungalow with hallway into kitchen/diner and a 6' wide square hole
into the lounge.
From the back it's a 4 bed house with all 4 bed's across the full width
of the house on the ground level. and a large balcony from patio doors
from the upstairs lounge.

All will be clear when I upload some images though.
TIA

Pete


--
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--
OK Pete,, bedrooms downstairs I guess? Count the number of rooms that are at ground level from outside,, ie: easy to gain entry by breaking a window, number of external doors, garage? attached? window in the loft? pets?

Andy...

Andy- wrote:

OK Pete,, bedrooms downstairs I guess? Count the number of rooms that
are at ground level from outside,, ie: easy to gain entry by breaking a
window, number of external doors, garage? attached? window in the loft?
pets?

2 dogs will have run of house (initially) except for all bedrooms and
rooms downstairs which will be kept closed.

The rest is (should ) be very self explanatory from the following pictures.

http://gymratz.co.uk/pete/newhouse/house.html

Note - Also want to incorporate smoke/heat sensor/alarm on ground floor,
living area & Loft as PC's and stuff to be housed in loft.
Alarm box to be fitted in loft with remote keypad either in entrance
porch or cloakroom, possibly one in boiler room for downstairs access.

Obviously all views on equipment/sensors etc appreciated.
(Noted our local Denmans sell all the texcom bits if they are a good bet.

Cheers
Pete
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2 dogs will have run of house (initially) except for all bedrooms and
rooms downstairs which will be kept closed.



2 dogs :-/ !! How big are the dogs???

How many rooms in total excluding bathroom/ shower room?

How many external doors?

I'm trying to work out how many zones you will need to use!

Andy- wrote:

2 dogs :-/ !! How big are the dogs???

One no bigger than a fat cat, the other about the size of a large
greyhound probabally weighing in at about 60lb max.

How many rooms in total excluding bathroom/ shower room?

Downstairs = 5 & 2x External doors

Upstairs = 3 + Garage + Entrance Porch

How many external doors?

2 Downstairs 2 upstairs (Including front garage and outer porch door)

I'm trying to work out how many zones you will need to use!

I was thinking of ....

1 for Downstairs (Bedrooms)
1 for Boiler room Entrance ?
1 for Upstairs
1 Garage
1 Porch

?

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