From jeff Howell in the telegraph

snip

"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not. The strategy is spelled out in a consultation document published
by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and, if adopted, it will
mean that anyone undertaking home improvement work exceeding £8,000
(excluding VAT) will be obliged to spend an additional 10 per cent of
the total project value to improve the insulation value of the
existing building

snip

"The only good news is that the energy-efficiency improvements would
be required to have a payback period of seven years or less, which
should rule out measures such as replacement double glazing and solar
heating, both of which take decades to pay for themselves. Don't rule
out the ODPM tweaking the proposals to get around this caveat, however

snip

"One extraordinary thing about these proposed changes is that very few
people in the building industry seem to be aware of them. The
proposals were apparently circulated to more than 250 organisations,
but the paragraph in question was buried on page 103 of a 332-page
document (whose consultation period ended, by the way, three weeks
ago)."

snip

Discuss

MBQ

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...

From jeff Howell in the telegraph

Woe! The Torygraph that organ of truth and impartiality.

snip

"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not.

Sounds good.

The strategy is spelled out in a consultation document published
by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and, if adopted, it will
mean that anyone undertaking home improvement work
exceeding £8,000 (excluding VAT) will be obliged
to spend an additional 10 per cent of
the total project value to improve the
insulation value of the existing building

Great idea. I am glad to see this.

snip

"The only good news is that the
energy-efficiency improvements would
be required to have a payback period
of seven years or less, which
should rule out measures such as
replacement double glazing and solar
heating, both of which take decades
to pay for themselves. Don't rule
out the ODPM tweaking the proposals
to get around this caveat, however

Discuss

Great idea. Most welcome.

MBQ wrote:
From jeff Howell in the telegraph

"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not.

I am totally against Goverment interference on principle, but in this
case why wouldn't people want to add insulation?

It seems nonsensical to pay good money for improvement work and not add
insulation to improve comfort and reduce bills.

Lee
--
Email address is valid, but is unlikely to be read.

I am totally against Goverment interference on principle, but in this
case why wouldn't people want to add insulation?

I might well want to. What I object to is being told that I must.

Bert
http://www.bertcoules.co.uk

In article , Mbq
wrote:
"One extraordinary thing about these proposed changes is that very
few people in the building industry seem to be aware of them. The
proposals were apparently circulated to more than 250 organisations,
but the paragraph in question was buried on page 103 of a 332-page
document (whose consultation period ended, by the way, three weeks
ago)."

snip

Discuss

Jeff Howell is against double glazing, loft insulation, condensing
boilers, energy saving lightbulbs and the rest as regular readers of
the Sunday Telegraph will know.

I was at a Part L conference a month ago with 200+ people present and
particular attention was drawn to this proposal. The underlying
principle is sound: with less than 1% of the housing stock being
replaced each year, and U-value requirements almost as low as they can
sensibly go, we are not going to significantly cut building energy use
by trying to apply ever higher standards to existing buildings. And
when it comes to existing buildings the sensible time to think about
this is when other building work is being done. Whether it's
enforceable in practice is another matter.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
From jeff Howell in the telegraph

snip

"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not.
snip


Discuss


Care to cite the original OotDP document, I trust you have read it ?...

It seems nonsensical to pay good money for improvement work and not add
insulation to improve comfort and reduce bills.

Because it might mean destroying priceless plaster mouldings, cornices,
wooden soffits etc. in period properties? Not everyone has a modern semi
with cavities itching to be filled, you know!

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
It seems nonsensical to pay good money for improvement work and not add
insulation to improve comfort and reduce bills.


Because it might mean destroying priceless plaster mouldings, cornices,
wooden soffits etc. in period properties? Not everyone has a modern semi
with cavities itching to be filled, you know!

Christian.

Presumably there are ways to add insulation without destroying original
features though. Although I guess it probably gets expensive then.

I don't particularly care for period features myself, but that doesn't
mean I'd want to destroy them.

Lee
--
Email address is valid, but is unlikely to be read.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
It seems nonsensical to pay good money for improvement work and not add
insulation to improve comfort and reduce bills.

Because it might mean destroying priceless plaster mouldings, cornices,
wooden soffits etc. in period properties? Not everyone has a modern semi
with cavities itching to be filled, you know!

But 90% plus do. So we have laws for a handfull of old crocks of houses?
Please!

"Lee" wrote in message
...


I don't particularly care for period features myself,

You live with them!

Mary

But 90% plus do. So we have laws for a handfull of old crocks of houses?
Please!

But you think all the Victorian and Edwardian houses should be pulled down
or gutted to be replaced by depressing crap 60's concrete, steel and glass
that no person of taste would live in if paid to do so.

Christian.

Presumably there are ways to add insulation without destroying original
features though. Although I guess it probably gets expensive then.

I see little opportunity to add wall insulation to a typical Victorian
property. Construction is usually pretty external brick bonding (not
suitable for insulated stone cladding!), no cavity, internal "seconds"
brick, plaster. Intricate plaster mouldings and wooden rails are then
usually attached, which are often made in situ using moulds. Not suitable
for removal and replacing into the slightly smaller room after 50mm of
celotex has made the room too small to hold the furniture any longer.

My house is constructed in this way. However, despite having single glazing
and no wall insulation, the official SAP report in the survey came up as
"very good" for energy efficiency. It has since been improved with a
condensing boiler, heating subzoning and CFL lights.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
But 90% plus do. So we have laws for a handfull of old crocks of
houses?
Please!

But you think all the Victorian and Edwardian houses should be pulled down
or gutted to be replaced by depressing crap 60's concrete, steel and glass
that no person of taste would live in if paid to do so.

Er No. Little good came out of Victoriana. The latest contemporary designs
are brill.

Er No. Little good came out of Victoriana. The latest contemporary
designs
are brill.

Well you wanted your ugly heating pipes on display in the middle of the
lounge, a fashion which probably looked dated in 1972.

Christian.

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Lee" wrote in message
...

I don't particularly care for period features myself,
You live with them!

Mary

You know what I meant

Lee
--
Email address is valid, but is unlikely to be read.

"Lee" wrote in message
...

I don't particularly care for period features myself,
You live with them!

Mary

You know what I meant

Yes, I did. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist ... but some people don't
understand that they're part of history.

I'm often asked if I like dressing in costume when I'm in mediaeval or other
kit. I'm afraid I retort that mine is no more costume than what they're
wearing. That usually serves to make them understand.

Mary

Lee
--
Email address is valid, but is unlikely to be read.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Er No. Little good came out of Victoriana. The latest contemporary
designs
are brill.

Well you wanted your ugly heating pipes on display in the middle of the
lounge, a fashion which probably looked dated in 1972.

uh!

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...

I see little opportunity to add wall insulation to a typical Victorian
property.

Easy; build a new wall outside the original. 14' air gap should do.

I see little opportunity to add wall insulation to a typical Victorian
property.

Easy; build a new wall outside the original. 14' air gap should do.

Presumably it would need to be clad in uPVC?

Christian.

Lee wrote:

MBQ wrote:

From jeff Howell in the telegraph


"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not.


I am totally against Goverment interference on principle, but in this
case why wouldn't people want to add insulation?

It seems nonsensical to pay good money for improvement work and not add
insulation to improve comfort and reduce bills.

You presume that they live in a house that needs extra insulation.
Obviously most will, but could you see the plight of a poor IMM living
in his German prefab "ECO" house? What would he do? the loft is already
full to the top with rockwool, with each roof tile lovingly wrapped in
bacofoil....


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

You presume that they live in a house that needs extra insulation.
Obviously most will, but could you see the plight of a poor IMM living
in his German prefab "ECO" house?

He might have to decommision one of his combis.

Christian.

Tony Bryer wrote:


sensibly go, we are not going to significantly cut building energy use
by trying to apply ever higher standards to existing buildings. And

You mean *new* buildings I take it?

when it comes to existing buildings the sensible time to think about
this is when other building work is being done. Whether it's
enforceable in practice is another matter.

You can see the logic, although as with most legislation of this type
you know that it will be a counterproductive waste of time within six
months of enactment.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , John
Rumm wrote:
sensibly go, we are not going to significantly cut building
energy use by trying to apply ever higher standards to existing
buildings. And

You mean *new* buildings I take it?

Just read what I meant to write g

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:08:28 -0000, :::Jerry:::: wrote:

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
From jeff Howell in the telegraph

snip

"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not.
snip


Discuss


Care to cite the original OotDP document, I trust you have read it ?...

The proposals are at
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/downloadable/odpm_breg_030371.pdf
Section 3 (page 97-). 1.3MB file.

I also see another added cost:
"As part of the application for Building Regulations approval, an energy
statement should be provided signed by a person with relevant credentials
detailing what energy efficiency improvements are to be included in the
building work."
Wonder which organisation will get that job.

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...

I was at a Part L conference a month ago with 200+ people present and
particular attention was drawn to this proposal. The underlying
principle is sound: with less than 1% of the housing stock being
replaced each year, and U-value requirements almost as low as they can
sensibly go, we are not going to significantly cut building energy use
by trying to apply ever higher standards to existing buildings. And
when it comes to existing buildings the sensible time to think about
this is when other building work is being done. Whether it's
enforceable in practice is another matter.


There could be a danger with this proposal that people will be discouraged
from improving the energy efficiency of their homes now, if they know that
future new work will automatically require a further upgrade to the existing
property.

James


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.777 / Virus Database: 524 - Release Date: 15/10/2004

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Lee wrote:

MBQ wrote:

From jeff Howell in the telegraph


"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not.


I am totally against Goverment interference on principle, but in this
case why wouldn't people want to add insulation?

It seems nonsensical to pay good money for improvement work and not add
insulation to improve comfort and reduce bills.

You presume that they live in a house that needs extra insulation.
Obviously most will, but could you see the plight of a poor IMM living
in his German prefab "ECO" house? What would he do? the loft is already
full to the top with rockwool, with each roof tile lovingly wrapped in
bacofoil....

What are you on about? How is the third world today?

In article , James wrote:
There could be a danger with this proposal that people will be
discouraged from improving the energy efficiency of their homes
now, if they know that future new work will automatically require
a further upgrade to the existing property.

The requirement to do energy saving works is subject to the check
that they must have a payback period of 7 years, so if you've
already topped up the loft insulation, insulated the cavities and
put in the condensing boiler there may be nothing to do.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Wonder which organisation will get that job.

Presumably yet another medieval guild that requires you to have been a
member for ten years before you can apply to be a member.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...

You presume that they live in a house that needs extra insulation.
Obviously most will, but could you see the plight of a poor IMM living
in his German prefab "ECO" house?

He might have to decommision one of his combis.

They should make it madatory to have two.

More of the Nanny Orwellian State, insualting our homes etc also increases
the internal pollution and cancer causing agents that exist in our homes.
About time we formed a new political party "the peoples government" who are
not hell bent on controlling the masses and taxing them to the hilt.

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
From jeff Howell in the telegraph

snip

"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not. The strategy is spelled out in a consultation document published
by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and, if adopted, it will
mean that anyone undertaking home improvement work exceeding £8,000
(excluding VAT) will be obliged to spend an additional 10 per cent of
the total project value to improve the insulation value of the
existing building

snip

"The only good news is that the energy-efficiency improvements would
be required to have a payback period of seven years or less, which
should rule out measures such as replacement double glazing and solar
heating, both of which take decades to pay for themselves. Don't rule
out the ODPM tweaking the proposals to get around this caveat, however

snip

"One extraordinary thing about these proposed changes is that very few
people in the building industry seem to be aware of them. The
proposals were apparently circulated to more than 250 organisations,
but the paragraph in question was buried on page 103 of a 332-page
document (whose consultation period ended, by the way, three weeks
ago)."

snip

Discuss

MBQ

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...


My house is constructed in this way. However, despite having single
glazing
and no wall insulation, the official SAP report in the survey came up as
"very good" for energy efficiency.

It has since been improved with a condensing boiler, heating subzoning
and CFL lights.


So this is what all people with houses like yours should do to meet this
requirement.

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
...
I am totally against Goverment interference on principle, but in this
case why wouldn't people want to add insulation?

I might well want to. What I object to is being told that I must.


The government has been trying to persaude us to insulate for years to meet
the Kyoto protocol, but as with seat-belts, smoking and so on, until it's
actually compulsory nobody does.

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
From jeff Howell in the telegraph

snip

"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not. The strategy is spelled out in a consultation document published
by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and, if adopted, it will
mean that anyone undertaking home improvement work exceeding £8,000
(excluding VAT) will be obliged to spend an additional 10 per cent of
the total project value to improve the insulation value of the
existing building


Then hopefully he will amend the rules and start allowing old buildings to
be demolished and a new one of identical size but modern highly insulated
construction to be built in it's place. This solves umpteen other problems
as well as insulation in one stroke.

"Mike" wrote in message
...


I might well want to. What I object to is being told that I must.


The government has been trying to persaude us to insulate for years to
meet
the Kyoto protocol, but as with seat-belts, smoking and so on, until it's
actually compulsory nobody does.

Is smoking compsulory?

Oh bugger. I'll have to find the Rizla machine, bet it's all rusted up ...

Mary

In article , Mike wrote:
Then hopefully he will amend the rules and start allowing old
buildings to be demolished and a new one of identical size but
modern highly insulated construction to be built in it's place.
This solves umpteen other problems as well as insulation in one
stroke.

Nice idea. My mum lives in a street of large Victorian houses with a few
infill ones where the original buyers bought double plots. Opposite her
someone has paid £850K (reputedly) for a 1960ish house, cavity walls,
replacement d.g. windows etc and razed it to the ground so they can
build a house to their own design. Conservation Area status means that
there is no chance of demolishing the Victoriana so the newer houses
will be the first to go.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Christian McArdle wrote:
Presumably there are ways to add insulation without destroying original
features though. Although I guess it probably gets expensive then.


I see little opportunity to add wall insulation to a typical Victorian
property.
snip

... However, despite having single glazing
and no wall insulation, the official SAP report in the survey came up as
"very good" for energy efficiency. It has since been improved with a
condensing boiler, heating subzoning and CFL lights.

Christian.


I wasn't thinking of wall insulation specifically.
Our 1950s place also has solid brick external walls (unusually) and I'm
not about to want to lose 50mm of the already small dimensions of the
rooms adding Celotex either.

It seems you have already done as much as could be reasonably expected
anyway.

Lee
--
Email address is valid, but is unlikely to be read.

[ reformated to the correct Usenet standard ]

"dms1.go-plus.net" wrote in message
...
"MBQ" wrote in message
om...

"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not.
snip

More of the Nanny Orwellian State, insualting our homes etc also increases
the internal pollution and cancer causing agents that exist in our homes.
About time we formed a new political party "the peoples government" who
are
not hell bent on controlling the masses and taxing them to the hilt.


IIRC there already is one, here and in many other countries, it's called the
Communist Party - didn't work to well in the old USSR though - human nature
being what it is....

BTW, the following URL might help if you're going to stick around Usenet;
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

Oh ****! Another usenet pedant.
Capitol

:::Jerry:::: wrote:
[ reformated to the correct Usenet standard ]

"dms1.go-plus.net" wrote in message
...

"MBQ" wrote in message
.com...

"Now plans are afoot to coerce more of us into carrying out
"energy-saving" alterations to our properties, whether we want to or
not.

snip

More of the Nanny Orwellian State, insualting our homes etc also increases
the internal pollution and cancer causing agents that exist in our homes.
About time we formed a new political party "the peoples government" who

are

not hell bent on controlling the masses and taxing them to the hilt.



IIRC there already is one, here and in many other countries, it's called the
Communist Party - didn't work to well in the old USSR though - human nature
being what it is....

BTW, the following URL might help if you're going to stick around Usenet;
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

"dms1.go-plus.net" wrote in message
...

More of the Nanny Orwellian State,
insualting our homes etc also increases
the internal pollution and cancer causing
agents that exist in our homes.

I'm sure you actually belive this and that you are good to animals too.
But, and a big real world but. ...it is the biggest pile of **** I have read
since a I last read Plowman.

Sad but true.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"dms1.go-plus.net" wrote in message
...

More of the Nanny Orwellian State,
insualting our homes etc also increases
the internal pollution and cancer causing
agents that exist in our homes.

I'm sure you actually belive this and that you are good to animals too.
But, and a big real world but. ...it is the biggest pile of **** I have
read
since a I last read Plowman.


Can't imagine a pleb like you reading a classic of the English language, but
maybe miracles happen and you've actually spent time reading Peirs Plowman.
Doubt it though, as it may be many things, but a pile of **** isn't one of
them.

Cheers
Clive