"Holly" wrote in message
...

Aidan wrote in message ...
"Holly" wrote in message
...
Aidan wrote in message news.


Sounds interesting, not many spring fed systems in London.

Ohmygod, my poor brain can't cope with much more! uk.diy didn't used to
be like this! Somebody please tell me that Aidan is a genuine poster who
has got mixed up, and not IMM in disguise!

Aidan, if you are genuine, my apologies, because everything else you are
saying seems to make sense. FYI I'm in France, which is why I'm not in
the least concerned the UK regs other than the safety issues, and why I
have very strange plumbing and two French cylinders in my

That is what I have been trying to do for you. Put extra safety measures on
the cylinder. At least an anti-vacuum valve.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Holly" wrote
| I wasn't, I didn't, but there is something irresistable about
| him isn't there? :-)

'ere, IMM, you've pulled!

This is understandable. I am absolutely gorgeous. I am also brilliant at
the tango.

Aidan wrote in message ...
"Holly" wrote in message
...
Aidan wrote in message news.


Sounds interesting, not many spring fed systems in London.

Ohmygod, my poor brain can't cope with much more! uk.diy didn't used to
be like this! Somebody please tell me that Aidan is a genuine poster who
has got mixed up, and not IMM in disguise!

Aidan, if you are genuine, my apologies, because everything else you are
saying seems to make sense. FYI I'm in France, which is why I'm not in
the least concerned the UK regs other than the safety issues, and why I
have very strange plumbing and two French cylinders in my house!

I'll come back to this tomorrow, probably after spending the night
having nightmares about cylinders exploding or imploding :-)

Holly

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:31:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:36:59 -0000, "Holly" wrote:


IMM wrote:



I would
certainly fit an anti-vacuum valve on the top of the cylinder.

You are going round in circles here.

He does this all the time.

You don't even know what an anti-vacuum valve is.

http://www.rwc.co.uk/rwc/pdfs/hcv/antivac.pdf

This is encouraging. A quick Google and Andy now knows.

This is the Internet and these sorts are allowed to operate. The wheat
and
the chaff are all together. In normal life you would not speak to them.

Mmmmm.........

Mmmm

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Holly" wrote
| I wasn't, I didn't, but there is something irresistable about
| him isn't there? :-)

'ere, IMM, you've pulled!

This is understandable. I am absolutely gorgeous. I am also brilliant at
the tango.


Is that dancing it, or drinking it? :-))

"BigWallop" wrote in message
news

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Holly" wrote
| I wasn't, I didn't, but there is something irresistable about
| him isn't there? :-)

'ere, IMM, you've pulled!

This is understandable. I am absolutely gorgeous. I am also brilliant
at
the tango.


Is that dancing it, or drinking it? :-))

dancing it,

Holly wrote in message

Aidan, if you are genuine, my apologies,

Definite apologies, have been googling, found lots of your past posts,
should have done that before posting the last message. Will still leave
the rest of the reply until tomorrow.
Sorry
Holly

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
IMM wrote:

I would certainly fit an anti-vacuum
valve on the top of the cylinder.

You don't even know what an anti-vacuum valve is.

http://www.rwc.co.uk/rwc/pdfs/hcv/antivac.pdf

I came across a normal cylinder that imploded fed from a tank. The draw-off
went through a brass towel rail snaked about a bit and then went up to the
loft and vented over the tank. When the immersion stat went belly up the
boiling water took the line of least resistance and went up the cold feed
back to the cold tank in the loft. Implosion.

On another occasion: In ye olden day they would put the open vent through
the roof tiles and onto the roof, not over the tank. The open vent iced up,
Immersion stat fails and cylinder implosion again.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
news

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Holly" wrote
| I wasn't, I didn't, but there is something irresistable about
| him isn't there? :-)

'ere, IMM, you've pulled!

This is understandable. I am absolutely gorgeous. I am also
brilliant
at
the tango.


Is that dancing it, or drinking it? :-))

dancing it,


So you know when you've Tango'd when you dance IMM :-))

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:17:35 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:31:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:36:59 -0000, "Holly" wrote:


IMM wrote:



I would
certainly fit an anti-vacuum valve on the top of the cylinder.

You are going round in circles here.

He does this all the time.

You don't even know what an anti-vacuum valve is.

http://www.rwc.co.uk/rwc/pdfs/hcv/antivac.pdf

This is encouraging. A quick Google and Andy now knows.

I knew before......

Coming from you, that comment is rich,,,,,,,,


This is the Internet and these sorts are allowed to operate. The wheat
and
the chaff are all together. In normal life you would not speak to them.

Mmmmm.........

Mmmm



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:35:57 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
IMM wrote:

I would certainly fit an anti-vacuum
valve on the top of the cylinder.

You don't even know what an anti-vacuum valve is.

http://www.rwc.co.uk/rwc/pdfs/hcv/antivac.pdf

I came across a normal cylinder that imploded fed from a tank. The draw-off
went through a brass towel rail snaked about a bit and then went up to the
loft and vented over the tank. When the immersion stat went belly up the
boiling water took the line of least resistance and went up the cold feed
back to the cold tank in the loft. Implosion.

On another occasion: In ye olden day they would put the open vent through
the roof tiles and onto the roof, not over the tank. The open vent iced up,
Immersion stat fails and cylinder implosion again.



Oh, I can believe it.

I was easily able to implode my old copper cylinder with a vacuum
cleaner before putting it on the skip.

The result was rather like one of those car crushers.
It became very small indeed. I was amazed.

It was a fairly hefty Bosch workshop vacuum cleaner, but even so...



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:17:35 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:31:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:36:59 -0000, "Holly" wrote:


IMM wrote:



I would
certainly fit an anti-vacuum valve on the top of the cylinder.

You are going round in circles here.

He does this all the time.

You don't even know what an anti-vacuum valve is.

http://www.rwc.co.uk/rwc/pdfs/hcv/antivac.pdf

This is encouraging. A quick Google and Andy now knows.

I knew before......

You never.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:35:57 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
IMM wrote:

I would certainly fit an anti-vacuum
valve on the top of the cylinder.

You don't even know what an anti-vacuum valve is.

http://www.rwc.co.uk/rwc/pdfs/hcv/antivac.pdf

I came across a normal cylinder that imploded fed from a tank. The
draw-off
went through a brass towel rail snaked about a bit and then went up to
the
loft and vented over the tank. When the immersion stat went belly up the
boiling water took the line of least resistance and went up the cold feed
back to the cold tank in the loft. Implosion.

On another occasion: In ye olden day they would put the open vent
through
the roof tiles and onto the roof, not over the tank. The open vent iced
up,
Immersion stat fails and cylinder implosion again.

Oh, I can believe it.

I was easily able to implode my
old copper cylinder with a vacuum
cleaner before putting it on the skip.

The result was rather like one of
those car crushers.
It became very small indeed.
I was amazed.

I have head of, but never actually seen implosions where a few powerful
power shower pumps are taken off the cylinders side. A full body jet shower
was fitted and in the morning when two showers were on, and the dishwasher
kicked in and the kitchen tap was on too the output was higher than what the
22mm pipe from the tank could input. Implosion, not big but a sort of
crinkling of the cylinder. A simple anti-vacuum valve would have prevented
it.

Some thermal stores are fitted with anti-vacuum valves too.

"Holly" wrote in message ...
Aidan wrote in message ...
"Holly" wrote in message
...
Aidan wrote in message news.

Sounds interesting, not many spring fed systems in London.

I'm in London where, I assure you, there are not many spring fed systems.


please tell me that Aidan is a genuine poster who
has got mixed up, and not IMM in disguise!

You thought I was IMM! I am deeply offended.

FYI I'm in France,

I had though the French cylinders were imports to the UK.

Aidan wrote in message
om...
"Holly" wrote in message
...
Aidan wrote in message ...
"Holly" wrote in message
...
Aidan wrote in message news.

Sounds interesting, not many spring fed systems in London.

I'm in London

You have my sympathy :-) Not that there is anything wrong with London in
particular, I wouldn't want to live in Dublin or Paris either (we came
to France from Ireland)

where, I assure you, there are not many spring fed systems.

No, I know.


please tell me that Aidan is a genuine poster who
has got mixed up, and not IMM in disguise!

You thought I was IMM! I am deeply offended.

I didn't *really* think you were IMM, you make much more sense.

FYI I'm in France,

I had though the French cylinders were imports to the UK.

The OP was thinking of importing them. Properly plumbed and wired in
according to the UK regulations, if such a thing is possible, they
wouldn't actually be a bad idea. They do seem to hold the heat better
than any copper cylinders we have ever had. And as I said before, they
look nicer :-)

Holly

IMM wrote in message
"Holly" wrote in message

re valve:
One can be fitted on the draw-off pipe.

That might actually be quite a good idea.

If the cylinder boils the expansion will go backwards

expansion go backwards??!! but I know what you are getting at....

and the anti-vacuum valve will open to prevent implosion.

so why wouldn't it either not expand further in the first place when
it reached that state, or simply suck the air/water/steam back in
again??

When it boils it has to go somewhere, so it goes back up the cold
feed. With no water replacing the water moving back up the cold feed

When the pressure ceases to be a problem the water why wouldn't the
water just stop moving back up the cold feed?

the cylinder will implode.

I'm not saying that these cylinders can't or don't implode, just can't
see why they would in this situation.

Holly

Aidan wrote in message
"Holly" wrote in message news:
Aidan wrote in message news.


Given its location here it wouldn't matter too much if
it did tip the water on the floor.

The tundish should be within 500mm of the temperature relief valve.

I will have to re-download the messages and/or have a google, don't know
exactly what a tundish is. I'll find out in a minute, no need to
explain.

Another function is that it allows the relief valves to discharge if
the outlet pipe becomes blocked or restricted (freezing, physical
damage, limescale, blockage).

Freezing would be a huge problem here if we had a pipe going outside, we
get temps of -15deg C. Then again we have slightly acid water so no
limescale. Damage/blockage could be a problem inside or out.

This would discharge over the floor, but
not as much as the cylinder splitting under pressure. There's quite a
lot of other requirements for the discharge pipe alone.


The problem of course is that at the moment it isn't
visible so we would not be alerted to a fault.

Either the tundish or the external discharge has to be visible; having
both visible is ideal.

Yes, can see why.

appears to be ordinary three core 2.5mm cable.

The factory fitted 3 core probably is heat resistant, there's not
much, if any, visible difference.

In that case it could be heat resistant, thanks for that. It would be
useful to know that for sure before deciding whether to replace it right
back to the unit or join it to the new cable in a junction box.


Your proposals sound like quite a lot of trouble, compared to just
fitting an expansion vessel.

Well yes, that might be an easier option, will look into it.

I'm not certain the Water Regulations
prohibition against wasting water apply to wasting your own spring
water,

oooh, your water authorities would be horrified at the amount of water
that is "wasted" here. We have two pipes coming down from the well. One
supplies the house, the other the outside taps and a fountain that runs
all the time, the overflow going into an underground pipe and into the
river. In the well the take-off for the fountain pipe is higher up than
the one for the house pipe, and the height of water in the fountain
varies with the amount of water in the well, so it acts as an easily
visible early warning system if the water level in the well gets low in
the summer. I guess it also keeps the water from stagnating in the well.


so you could just let the expansion relief valve discharge it.
The expansion relief valves are liable to start dripping after
discharging, due to bits of limescale getting under the seat & then
neeed to be replaced. I'd go for an expansion vessel.

We might well do that. Thanks for your help
Holly

"Aidan" wrote in message
om...
"Holly" wrote in message
...
Aidan wrote in message ...
"Holly" wrote in message
...
Aidan wrote in message news.

Sounds interesting, not many spring fed systems in London.

I'm in London where, I assure you, there are not many spring fed systems.

I came across a large block in the City that drew its water from a well
beneath the block.

please tell me that Aidan is a genuine poster who
has got mixed up, and not IMM in disguise!

You thought I was IMM! I am deeply offended.

Flattered you mean.

FYI I'm in France,

I had though the French cylinders were imports to the UK.

"Holly" wrote in message
...

Aidan wrote in message
om...
"Holly" wrote in message
...
Aidan wrote in message ...
"Holly" wrote in message
...
Aidan wrote in message news.

Sounds interesting, not many spring fed systems in London.

I'm in London

You have my sympathy :-) Not that there is anything wrong with London in
particular, I wouldn't want to live in Dublin or Paris either (we came
to France from Ireland)

where, I assure you, there are not many spring fed systems.

No, I know.


please tell me that Aidan is a genuine poster who
has got mixed up, and not IMM in disguise!

You thought I was IMM! I am deeply offended.

I didn't *really* think you were IMM, you make much more sense.

Is this Irish humour?

FYI I'm in France,

I had though the French cylinders were imports to the UK.

The OP was thinking of importing them. Properly plumbed and wired in
according to the UK regulations, if such a thing is possible, they
wouldn't actually be a bad idea. They do seem to hold the heat better
than any copper cylinders we have ever had. And as I said before, they
look nicer :-)

Holly

"Holly" wrote in message
...

IMM wrote in message
"Holly" wrote in message

re valve:
One can be fitted on the draw-off pipe.

That might actually be quite a good idea.

If the cylinder boils the expansion will go backwards

expansion go backwards??!! but I know what you are getting at....

and the anti-vacuum valve will open to prevent implosion.

so why wouldn't it either not expand further in the first place when
it reached that state, or simply suck the air/water/steam back in
again??

When it boils it has to go somewhere, so it goes back up the cold
feed. With no water replacing the water moving back up the cold feed

When the pressure ceases to be a problem the water why wouldn't the
water just stop moving back up the cold feed?

That is where is expands to, back up the cold feed. UK cylidners can't
expand up there, and have either: aa air pocket that requires periodic
re-instating or an external expansion vessel.

the cylinder will implode.

I'm not saying that these cylinders can't or don't implode, just can't
see why they would in this situation.

If water boils and it expands up the cold feed, which is at the bottom, the
water requires replacing from the top, otherwise implosion. What prevents
this is an anti-vacuum valve. The passage the water expands out of in an
overboil situation ideally should not be the same passage water enters the
cylinder.

If the cylinder is indirectly heated via a boiler there are two levels of
protection on the boiler side: the cylinder thermostat and the boiler stat.
If a cylinder stat set to 55c fails the cylinder will heat to the boiler
stat of 82C. Only if both fail will it overboil. An immersion has only one
safety level, the immersion stat. After that the cylinder own controls have
to provide safety.

In your situation, at the very least I would install an anti-vacuum valve on
the draw-off directly above the cylinder.

IMM wrote in message
...

"Holly" wrote in message
...

IMM wrote in message
"Holly" wrote in message



so why wouldn't it either not expand further in the first place
when
it reached that state, or simply suck the air/water/steam back
in
again??

When it boils it has to go somewhere, so it goes back up the cold
feed. With no water replacing the water moving back up the cold
feed

When the pressure ceases to be a problem why wouldn't the
water just stop moving back up the cold feed?

That is where is expands to, back up the cold feed. UK cylidners
can't
expand up there, and have either: aa air pocket that requires periodic
re-instating or an external expansion vessel.

Third and last try at this question. I now understand how UK cylinders
work. I now see the problems and possible solutions to the situation we
have here in our house. I'm just questioning your theory here. In the
case of the cold feed being open, when the pressure ceased to be a
problem why wouldn't the water just stop moving back up the cold feed?

the cylinder will implode.

I'm not saying that these cylinders can't or don't implode, just
can't
see why they would in this situation.

If water boils and it expands up the cold feed, which is at the
bottom, the
water requires replacing from the top, otherwise implosion.

I still think this is nonsense, "it's the law of physics Jim" but I do
accept that I could be wrong. Go on, convince me, when the pressure
ceased to be a problem why wouldn't the water just stop moving back up
the cold feed?

Holly