Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15 by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA

"MGA" wrote in message
...
Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15
by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them
using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA

Would it not be easier to add an internal block wall?

"Dave Jones" wrote in message
...

"MGA" wrote in message
...
Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building
control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide
an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15
by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to
the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them
skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them
using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA

Would it not be easier to add an internal block wall?

Would still need insulation between the walls to meet part L.

How tall is the ceiling and is it strong enough to support the structure
(with the floor of course) and don't bother attaching to the wall ?

As for long screws, B&Q sell them up to 8 inches (German brand I can't
remember name of)

"G&M" wrote in message
...

"Dave Jones" wrote in message
...

"MGA" wrote in message
...
Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building
control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5
meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide
an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are
15
by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to
the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them
skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them
using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA

Would it not be easier to add an internal block wall?

Would still need insulation between the walls to meet part L.

Yes, but he's gonna have a 6 in gap to fill using those studs!

"MGA" wrote in message
...
I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough.

Spax sell them up to 8 inches.

"G&M" wrote in message
...

"Dave Jones" wrote in message
...

"MGA" wrote in message
...
Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building
control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5
meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to
provide
an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are
15
by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to
the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them
skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them
using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA

Would it not be easier to add an internal block wall?

Would still need insulation between the walls to meet part L.

How tall is the ceiling and is it strong enough to support the structure
(with the floor of course) and don't bother attaching to the wall ?

As for long screws, B&Q sell them up to 8 inches (German brand I can't
remember name of)


I don't know about regulations in your jurisdictions in the UK; but here a
first thought was to hire one of those 'impact guns' (made by Hilti or
Ramset etc.) that explosively fire a nail through the wood stud into the
wall behind. I've seen attachments to half inch thick steel, poured concrete
walls and concrete floors etc ...... etc. To brick I'm not sure about?.
Presumably you select the type of cartridge and the length of the fasteners
to suit the job also taking into account the depth of penetration required.
Here I would head for a tool rental shop and get their advice, maybe even
practice a couple of times. Understand that you must keep face of gun
absolutely flat on the work surface to avoid the 'nail' ricocheting off at
an angle and use other sensible safety precautions. Perhaps the occasional
attachments might not work first time; perhaps hitting a weak section of
mortar or a 'spall' in a brick and not holding. There are many types of
nails, studs, threaded rod fasteners available. I've seen Ramsets used
safely in a working equipment area. Each of your wooden upright studs
probably needs, say four such fasteners.
Renting such a gun costs the equivalent of about ten quid a day; the
explosive cartridges say 50 pee each and screw fasteners 25 to 50 pee each.
However I've just called a knowledgeable local rental shop and they advise
not using the ramset method because brick here (where brick is rarely, if
ever used, except for a decorative none load bearing facing or internal
chimneys, in residential construction) even new, is generally too
unreliable; especially if any weight such as shelves is to be mounted on the
walls. They suggest to drill holes into the brick using a carbide tipped
drill; each expanding fastener would cost somewhere between 50 cents and
$2.00 Can.(Roughly say 50 to 80 pence and then a long screw/bolt through the
wood stud into the fastener. I used four of the small expanding fasteners to
mount an external TV antenna on a chimney in windy Liverpool UK in the 1950s
and it stayed there for at least ten years.
I would also investigate using construction adhesive, maybe in addition to
the drilled fasteners. Even if the wall is a little uneven small wedges
and/blocks could be used and that modern stuff after a minute or two holds
like the dickens. (I've even used it on a slide in truck camper subject to
twisting and road vibration with great results.
The studding and plaster board will reduce the usable space a bit; I've seen
some of those smaller UK garages! So would suggest against building another
entire wall inside the existing one. If affordable, perhaps use plywood for
the lower two or four foot portion of the wall instead of plasterboard cos.
it resists damage?
Two (Canadian) cents from here. Ex-scouser.

In message , MGA
writes
Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15 by
5 centimetres,

not sure I'd call a bit of 6x2 a batten :-)

but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

Lots and lots of 'no more nails'.....? :-)

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them using
some kind of metal brackets.

The metal brackets seems like the best option here, there are various
sorts of galvanized brackets used for framing, joists etc. one should be
suitable, and they aren't expensive. quicker than drilling big long
holes etc. even if you could find screws.

You'll see the sort of thing he

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hardware/BuildersMetalwork/d170/sd2240

(Yup not worth posting a Screwfix link at the mo'......)
--
Chris French, Leeds

"MGA" wrote in message


Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15 by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?


Take them back and exchange them for 2 x 2s. 3 x 2 is the maximum or the
BCO is a tit. You don't need to come out to the piers just insulate the
thin bit.

If he insists you do the piers too follow them round with 2x2. 4 x 2 is
well ott in my humble. If you want to go ahead anyway, just make them
into frames with a top and bottom bit and screw them to the piers. That
way you are only going through the thin bit. Make the frames an 1/2
small and use packers, that way you won't be struggling to get them in.

Brown plugs and 3" screws; et vwallah.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In article
lgate.org,
Michael Mcneil wrote:
Take them back and exchange them for 2 x 2s. 3 x 2 is the
maximum or the BCO is a tit. You don't need to come out to
the piers just insulate the thin bit.

IMO that leaves you with a strong chance of the piers being prone
to condensation or penetrating damp. I would build stud walls with
full height studs between sole and head plates set out between the
piers so that the rear face of the plasterboard was 10mm or so
from the face of the pier - or at the loss of a little extra
space, 30mm and put some 25mm polystyrene in between the studs
either side of the pier.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article ,
MGA wrote:
I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough.

Frame fixings. They come in a variety of lengths.

--
*According to my calculations, the problem doesn't exist.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:13:44 +0100, "MGA"
wrote:

Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15 by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA


Hi,

How long are the studs and how far are they required to be apart? Also
what insulation do you plan on using, and what is required for an
extension. Also how wide are the piers themselves?

cheers,
Pete.

"MGA" wrote in message
...
Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15
by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them
using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA



================
If you can be bothered to do it......

Drill countersinks with a 1" brace and bit (or spade bit in normal power
drill) to a depth of about 4" followed by smaller holes to take size 10s
screws . Then use 4" screws into normal wall plugs.

It's a bit tedious but it will do the job as if you were fixing 2" x 2"
battens.

Cic.

"MGA" wrote in message ...

as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15 by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

If I've understood your configuration properly, then what you need to
do is 'bury' the screws within the joists. By which I mean, first
drill a clearance hole for the screw right through the joist (15cm),
large enough for the screw shaft, but not the head. Now fit another
bit, which will drill a hole just large enough for the screw head to
pass through. Now over-drill the original hole in the joist, but stop
short of boring right through (say, 10cm deep?) Now you can drop your
screw down the hole, and all but 5cm will protrude from the
bottom/back of the joist, and you can access the screw head with a
screwdriver down the overbored hole.

It's still best to use screws as long as you can obtain, and keep the
overbored hole to a minimum, as that's mechanically most most sound.

David

Dear all,

Thanks so much for your answers!
In summary, these are the possible solutions suggested and what I think
about them:

1- Use metal brackets: sounds easy, cheap and fast.
2- Use thinner studs and work around the piers: sounds easy and cheap too,
but it leaves the problem of the wall not been flat. I want to put some of
the old kitchen units in there so it may be a problem.
3- Bury screws into studs: easy but not that fast. I guess brackets is as
good solution to get a solid structure in place?
4- Free-standing frame: I would prefer other options before if only because
it's more work! It would also take more space.
5- Build an inner block wall: wouldn't I have to reinforce the foundations
for this? working with timber is more or less ok (I've finished now the
roof, and it wasn't that complicated), but with this I wouldn't know where
to start to be honest.
6- No more nails... that would be excellent wouldn't it?
....

I was planning in doing the work tomorrow but it seems like I'll have to do
something else (the partition wall?) and give this a bit more thinking to
choose the right option...

Thanks again for your time!!!

MGA

ps: thanks also for your patient when reading my posts. As you're probably
aware by now English is not my first language: I'm from Spain but living in
sunny Hertfordshire



"MGA" wrote in message
...
Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15
by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them
using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 21:37:50 +0100, "MGA"
wrote:

Dear all,

Thanks so much for your answers!
In summary, these are the possible solutions suggested and what I think
about them:

1- Use metal brackets: sounds easy, cheap and fast.
2- Use thinner studs and work around the piers: sounds easy and cheap too,
but it leaves the problem of the wall not been flat. I want to put some of
the old kitchen units in there so it may be a problem.
3- Bury screws into studs: easy but not that fast. I guess brackets is as
good solution to get a solid structure in place?
4- Free-standing frame: I would prefer other options before if only because
it's more work! It would also take more space.
5- Build an inner block wall: wouldn't I have to reinforce the foundations
for this? working with timber is more or less ok (I've finished now the
roof, and it wasn't that complicated), but with this I wouldn't know where
to start to be honest.
6- No more nails... that would be excellent wouldn't it?

Hi,

Another way could be to put a 3.5" deep 'stringer' at the top and
bottom of the alcoves, then fix 3" studs to this to bring the
plasterboard 1/2" proud of the piers.

With a bit of luck 3" celotex in the alcoves will be enough to make
the average U value of the wall meet the regs, and will require less
cutting to fit between the top and bottom stringers, instead of
between the studs.

There will then be a 1/2" gap between the piers and the plasterboard
and a 1/2" gap between the studs and the celotex, and a 'draw wire'
can be run in the gap before fitting the plasterboard to make it
easier to add wiring in future.

Also using foil backed plasterboard will improve the U value as there
will be an air gap behind it, plus it will form a vapour barrier to
help prevent condensation behind the plasterboard.

cheers,
Pete.


...

I was planning in doing the work tomorrow but it seems like I'll have to do
something else (the partition wall?) and give this a bit more thinking to
choose the right option...

Thanks again for your time!!!

MGA

ps: thanks also for your patient when reading my posts. As you're probably
aware by now English is not my first language: I'm from Spain but living in
sunny Hertfordshire



"MGA" wrote in message
...
Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15
by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them
using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA

In message , MGA
writes

ps: thanks also for your patient when reading my posts. As you're probably
aware by now English is not my first language:

No, didn't occur to me at all, an native speaker would probably not have
used 'batten ' in this context - means fairly small section timber,
otherwise, no indication to me.


--
Chris French, Leeds

In article ,
MGA wrote:
In summary, these are the possible solutions suggested and what I think
about them:

1- Use metal brackets: sounds easy, cheap and fast. 2- Use thinner studs
and work around the piers: sounds easy and cheap too, but it leaves the
problem of the wall not been flat. I want to put some of the old
kitchen units in there so it may be a problem. 3- Bury screws into
studs: easy but not that fast. I guess brackets is as good solution to
get a solid structure in place? 4- Free-standing frame: I would prefer
other options before if only because it's more work! It would also take
more space. 5- Build an inner block wall: wouldn't I have to reinforce
the foundations for this? working with timber is more or less ok (I've
finished now the roof, and it wasn't that complicated), but with this I
wouldn't know where to start to be honest. 6- No more nails... that
would be excellent wouldn't it?

You've missed out the easy way. Frame fixings. These are much faster - and
easier - than wall plugs with separate screws.

--
*A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Hi Dave,
what exactly are frame fixings and do you use them?
also, where can you get them?

Thanks

MGA


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
MGA wrote:
In summary, these are the possible solutions suggested and what I think
about them:

1- Use metal brackets: sounds easy, cheap and fast. 2- Use thinner studs
and work around the piers: sounds easy and cheap too, but it leaves the
problem of the wall not been flat. I want to put some of the old
kitchen units in there so it may be a problem. 3- Bury screws into
studs: easy but not that fast. I guess brackets is as good solution to
get a solid structure in place? 4- Free-standing frame: I would prefer
other options before if only because it's more work! It would also take
more space. 5- Build an inner block wall: wouldn't I have to reinforce
the foundations for this? working with timber is more or less ok (I've
finished now the roof, and it wasn't that complicated), but with this I
wouldn't know where to start to be honest. 6- No more nails... that
would be excellent wouldn't it?

You've missed out the easy way. Frame fixings. These are much faster - and
easier - than wall plugs with separate screws.

--
*A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"MGA" wrote in message
...
Hi Dave,
what exactly are frame fixings and do you use them?
also, where can you get them?

Thanks

MGA

snipped

===============
Frame fixings are long screws inside long plastic plugs. The idea is that
you can drill through a timber frame and into the underlying brickwork and
then insert the complete fixing in one go. I don't think they're suitable
for your job because as far as I know the longest available is about 6".
They're also a bit difficult to use because the screw part usually requires
a lot of force to drive in. You can improve them by replacing the supplied
screws with hex-headed coach screws which can be driven home with a socket
spanner.

Cic.

In article ,
Cicero wrote:
Frame fixings are long screws inside long plastic plugs. The idea is
that you can drill through a timber frame and into the underlying
brickwork and then insert the complete fixing in one go. I don't think
they're suitable for your job because as far as I know the longest
available is about 6".

Countersink the holes.


They're also a bit difficult to use because the
screw part usually requires a lot of force to drive in. You can improve
them by replacing the supplied screws with hex-headed coach screws which
can be driven home with a socket spanner.

But you hammer them in place first. Then a half turn or so afterwards.
I've never had a problem with a decent large pozidriv screwdriver.

--
*That's it! I‘m calling grandma!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frame fixings are long screws inside long plastic plugs. The idea is that
you can drill through a timber frame and into the underlying brickwork and
then insert the complete fixing in one go. I don't think they're suitable
for your job because as far as I know the longest available is about 6".

They're also a bit difficult to use because the screw part usually requires
a lot of force to drive in.
Only if you haven't drilled the correct size hole. 9.5 or 10mm IIRC.

In article ,
MGA wrote:
what exactly are frame fixings and do you use them?
also, where can you get them?

They are similar to a screw and wall plug, but the much longer wall plug
goes through the wood into the wall. I drill holes in the wood first at
the correct places then use a masonry drill through those holes. Then you
simply hammer the fixing in place - followed by a half turn on the screw
with a driver. They can be removed in the normal way. The beauty is that
the holes always line up perfectly.

The sheds sell them - at a price.

Check Screwfix

Hammer fixings (a lighter version)

35- 120mm long. 3.17- 8.93 per 100.

Frame fixings
80 - 135mm long 6.70- 13.99 per 100

--
*Never miss a good chance to shut up *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"MGA" wrote in message ...
Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15 by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA

Use a frame off the wall fixed to the floor and ceiling. As the frame
is off the wall, it prevents cold bridging. Pack with insulation.
Garage walls are notorious for being leaky, so having the inner wall
not touching the outer is a very good thing for thermal and water
problems.

Did the BCO ask you to seal the floor, and up to 3 foot up the walls,
with Sythaproof bitumin type of sealant?

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:13:44 +0100, "MGA"
wrote:

Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15 by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

I can't just screw them because I can't find screws long enough. I've
thought about fixing thinner studs to the wall horizontally and them skew
nail the studs to them vertically. Another option would be to fix them using
some kind of metal brackets.

What is the best way to do this?

Thanks in advance!

MGA


Do you need to fix it to the wall ?

Why not just make a new wall neer the brick one, from 2*3, just like a
partition wall. Then you fix to floor, ceiling, and edge. The VB can
be stapled to the back of the wall somehow, and the insulation should
just slot in.

Rick

In message , Rick Dipper
writes
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:13:44 +0100, "MGA"
wrote:

Dear all,
as part of my garage conversion I have been asked by the building control
officer to fix studs to the wall, add insulation, a vapour barrier and
plasterboard. It's a single brick wall and it has piers every 1.5 meters
more or less. That means that I need to get quite deep studs to provide an
even surface for the plasterboard. I have the battens ready, they are 15 by
5 centimetres, but being so deep, what is the best way to fix them to the
wall?

Do you need to fix it to the wall ?

Why not just make a new wall neer the brick one, from 2*3, just like a
partition wall.

In Message-ID:

MGA wrote:

'Free-standing frame: I would prefer other options before if only
because it's more work! It would also take more space'

--
Chris French, Leeds

Why not just make a new wall neer the brick one, from 2*3, just like a
partition wall.

'Free-standing frame: I would prefer other options before if only
because it's more work! It would also take more space'


put horizontal wood strips onto wall, just like sole and header
plates, but then attach the uprights differently. Put them onto the
_front_ face of the top and bottom pieces, instead of between them.
Probably as clear as mud... heres a sideways-on view then:
_ _
|_| |
| |
| |
_| |
|_|_|


NT