I have an oil fired boiler which heats the water and radiators fine. I also
have an open fire with a back boiler. For all the time I've lived here I
thought the back boiler only heated the hot water, not the rads. However I
now find out that it should heat the radiators too. The reason for the
double system is that the previous occupier owned a coal yard so could get
all the free fuel they needed so added it to the already existing oil
system.

Normally I have the boiler on a timer to come on for an hour in the early
morning and about 4 hours in the early evening. That seemed to work fine.
However, if I also had the fire on, evenings and weekends for example, then
when the fire seems to reach a certain temperature it kick starts the pump -
which is right - but the pump also kick starts the boiler, which fires up,
even with the controller off. This means that I am burning ridiculous
amounts of oil unnecessarily.
Yesterday I had someone in to fit an immersion heater so I don't have to
have the boiler on all summer as it makes the kitchen too hot, and now, even
without the fire on, the boiler is firing up and heating all the radiators.
There it goes again on cue. I've had to switch it off at the power switch to
stop it. However if I now light the fire, the pump won't come on and I
might overheat the back boiler.
I've asked the guy who came yesterday what could be done about it and he
said he couldn't understand it and would need to go back to get advice,
however I doubt I'll hear from him again.

Can anyone here work out what is going on - sorry for the long post but I
couldn't think how to explain it more concisely.

Thanks

Liz


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Is there a switch on the boiler itself? On our systems we can switch the
boilers off (an off position on the thermostat) but the controller will
still switch the pump on and off.
"Liz" wrote in message
...
I have an oil fired boiler which heats the water and radiators fine. I
also
have an open fire with a back boiler. For all the time I've lived here I
thought the back boiler only heated the hot water, not the rads. However
I
now find out that it should heat the radiators too. The reason for the
double system is that the previous occupier owned a coal yard so could get
all the free fuel they needed so added it to the already existing oil
system.

Normally I have the boiler on a timer to come on for an hour in the early
morning and about 4 hours in the early evening. That seemed to work fine.
However, if I also had the fire on, evenings and weekends for example,
then
when the fire seems to reach a certain temperature it kick starts the
pump -
which is right - but the pump also kick starts the boiler, which fires up,
even with the controller off. This means that I am burning ridiculous
amounts of oil unnecessarily.
Yesterday I had someone in to fit an immersion heater so I don't have to
have the boiler on all summer as it makes the kitchen too hot, and now,
even
without the fire on, the boiler is firing up and heating all the
radiators.
There it goes again on cue. I've had to switch it off at the power switch
to
stop it. However if I now light the fire, the pump won't come on and I
might overheat the back boiler.
I've asked the guy who came yesterday what could be done about it and he
said he couldn't understand it and would need to go back to get advice,
however I doubt I'll hear from him again.

Can anyone here work out what is going on - sorry for the long post but I
couldn't think how to explain it more concisely.

Thanks

Liz


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Harry Ziman wrote:
Is there a switch on the boiler itself? On our systems we can switch
the boilers off (an off position on the thermostat) but the
controller will still switch the pump on and off.

My oil fired boiler has a thermostat which can be set to off (don't they
all?) - its in the boiler house which is not accessible from the house which
is a bit of a pain but if the OP is talking about doing this seasonally
rather than daily that would be OK.

Tony

Tony wrote:
Harry Ziman wrote:
Is there a switch on the boiler itself? On our systems we can switch
the boilers off (an off position on the thermostat) but the
controller will still switch the pump on and off.

My oil fired boiler has a thermostat which can be set to off (don't
they all?) - its in the boiler house which is not accessible from the
house which is a bit of a pain but if the OP is talking about doing
this seasonally rather than daily that would be OK.

Tony

Thank you, yes I'll investigate this, there is a switch on the boiler,
though also not easily accessible and I could do it in the summer though.
Now I've got the immersion heater that's what I'll do. Thanks

However, I still don't know what to do about the thing coming on all the
time at the moment, as I say, I just switch the power off but can't light a
fire as the pump is also off then. I wish I understood more about how these
2 systems work together and I could possibly work it out then - my big diy
book can't help here.

Thanks again

Liz


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"Liz" wrote in message
...
I have an oil fired boiler which heats the water and radiators fine. I also
have an open fire with a back boiler. For all the time I've lived here I
thought the back boiler only heated the hot water, not the rads. However I
now find out that it should heat the radiators too. The reason for the
double system is that the previous occupier owned a coal yard so could get
all the free fuel they needed so added it to the already existing oil
system.

Normally I have the boiler on a timer to come on for an hour in the early
morning and about 4 hours in the early evening. That seemed to work fine.
However, if I also had the fire on, evenings and weekends for example, then
when the fire seems to reach a certain temperature it kick starts the pump -
which is right - but the pump also kick starts the boiler, which fires up,
even with the controller off. This means that I am burning ridiculous
amounts of oil unnecessarily.

How much oil are you using?


Yesterday I had someone in to fit an immersion heater so I don't have to
have the boiler on all summer as it makes the kitchen too hot, and now, even
without the fire on, the boiler is firing up and heating all the radiators.
There it goes again on cue. I've had to switch it off at the power switch to
stop it. However if I now light the fire, the pump won't come on and I
might overheat the back boiler.
I've asked the guy who came yesterday what could be done about it and he
said he couldn't understand it and would need to go back to get advice,
however I doubt I'll hear from him again.

Can anyone here work out what is going on - sorry for the long post but I
couldn't think how to explain it more concisely.

Since you clearly dont have a standard configuration, I suggest that you have
both the wiring and the plumbing traced to find out how it is all connected and
how it might work. The previous occupier might also know.

From what you say there is a thermostat on the coal boiler which switches on the
pump when the boiler is hot and has heat to be distributed round the house.

The pump circulates water round both boilers, and cools the oil boiler to the
point where its internal thermostat switches it on.

Do you not have a room thermostat?


My oil fired boiler also has a thermostat which could be turned to the off
position. The boiler runs when
a) The programmer supplies power.
b) The boiler thermostat says it has not reached its maximum temperature.
This is normal for a gravity H/W system which uses natural circulation to heat
the hot water tank. The radiators are fed via a pump)


Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:
Since you clearly dont have a standard configuration, I suggest that
you have both the wiring and the plumbing traced to find out how it
is all connected and how it might work. The previous occupier might
also know.
Previous owner evicted and nowhere on scene unfortunately. Who should I ask
to do this checking? Plumber or electrician?

From what you say there is a thermostat on the coal boiler which
switches on the pump when the boiler is hot and has heat to be
distributed round the house.
Yes that's the theory I believe and makes sense. The problem is that when
the pump kicks in it also fires up oil boiler which it shouldn't do.

Do you not have a room thermostat?
No, everything is either hot or not. Though of course the radiators can be
controlled manually.

My oil fired boiler also has a thermostat which could be turned to
the off position. The boiler runs when
a) The programmer supplies power.
The light on the programmer is off at the moment and the boiler is still
coming on and off.

b) The boiler thermostat says it has not reached its maximum
temperature.
It must be roasting by now, it's been on all morning and I've put the log
fire on now too - it looks so miserable having a dead fire when the weather
is stormy like this.

Oh dear! Thanks for all these ideas, I'll ring someone tomorrow to come and
sort it all out, I had thought we could've done it ourselves. Click, there
it fires again! I'm going to have to turn off the radiators individually
before we die of overheating - and then have lots of baths!
Thanks again
Liz



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"Liz" wrote in message
...
Michael Chare wrote:
Since you clearly dont have a standard configuration, I suggest that
you have both the wiring and the plumbing traced to find out how it
is all connected and how it might work. The previous occupier might
also know.
Previous owner evicted and nowhere on scene unfortunately. Who should I ask
to do this checking? Plumber or electrician?

Look up Central Heating Services in yellow pages.
Pick a local company (without an 0800 number) that handles oil fired boilers.
(IMHO)

Explain what you want them to do.

An oil fired boiler running on Kerosene needs an annual service, so
if your not going to do this yourself you need to establish a relationship with
a supplier.

From what you say there is a thermostat on the coal boiler which
switches on the pump when the boiler is hot and has heat to be
distributed round the house.
Yes that's the theory I believe and makes sense. The problem is that when
the pump kicks in it also fires up oil boiler which it shouldn't do.


Maybe there is a valve which you can operate to prevent this happening
or a zone valve that is not working.


Do you not have a room thermostat?
No, everything is either hot or not. Though of course the radiators can be
controlled manually.

In that case, maybe it really does work as I have described, though I would have
thought that there was some provision for preventing the oil boiler running when
the coal boiler was working.

I can thoroughly recommend installing a programmable room thermostat!

Michael Chare

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:48:15 -0000, Liz wrote:

However if I now light the fire, the pump won't come on and I
might overheat the back boiler.

So what happens if you have a fire burning and you get a power cut?
Just as you need an independant heat source you have to turn it off...

A solid fuel boiler should not require a pump to circulate water
through it and the cylinder and a "dump" radiator or two. The dump
radiators can be controlled by a thermosatically operated valve so
that doesn't need power either.

I've asked the guy who came yesterday what could be done about it
and he said he couldn't understand it ...

Not surprised, there is something weird/non-standard with your system.
You really need to locate all the parts, plumbing and electrical, then
draw out how they are all interconected.

I'm rather surprised that you have opted for an immersion heater for
summer use. Electricity costs about 5p/unit, oil 2p/unit. This choice
I think has been influenced by the poor control system that your oil
boiler has. It is perfectly possible to have everything working
together with the oil boiler only providing heat when the fire
isn't/can't provide enough and to only heat the bits you want heated.

Do a search on "dunsley neutraliser" for more information.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:48:15 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Liz"
strung together this:

I have an oil fired boiler which heats the water and radiators fine. I also
have an open fire with a back boiler. For all the time I've lived here I
thought the back boiler only heated the hot water, not the rads. However I
now find out that it should heat the radiators too. The reason for the
double system is that the previous occupier owned a coal yard so could get
all the free fuel they needed so added it to the already existing oil
system.

Normally I have the boiler on a timer to come on for an hour in the early
morning and about 4 hours in the early evening. That seemed to work fine.
However, if I also had the fire on, evenings and weekends for example, then
when the fire seems to reach a certain temperature it kick starts the pump -
which is right - but the pump also kick starts the boiler, which fires up,
even with the controller off. This means that I am burning ridiculous
amounts of oil unnecessarily.
Yesterday I had someone in to fit an immersion heater so I don't have to
have the boiler on all summer as it makes the kitchen too hot, and now, even
without the fire on, the boiler is firing up and heating all the radiators.
There it goes again on cue. I've had to switch it off at the power switch to
stop it. However if I now light the fire, the pump won't come on and I
might overheat the back boiler.
I've asked the guy who came yesterday what could be done about it and he
said he couldn't understand it and would need to go back to get advice,
however I doubt I'll hear from him again.

Can anyone here work out what is going on - sorry for the long post but I
couldn't think how to explain it more concisely.

From reading the other posts it does seem like the thermostat on the
pipe by the fire could be at fault. Although these type of systems can
become quite complex, I've done a few like this before now and each
one has been done slightly differently.
As for who to check it out I would have the plumber check what does
what, how it's meant to work and whether the correct stats and safety
devices are in place. I would also have an electrician come and check
the wiring is safe and that the devices are functioning as they
should.
Between them they should be able to tell you how it all works, what it
should do and advise on anything that needs upgrading. If it were me I
would alter the wiring to it as it doesn't sound as if it's totally
set-up as user friendly as it can be, although depending on you're
electrician this could be beyond him. (Actually, re-reading your post
it would appear that it is, maybe the plumber will be a bit more
knowledgable).
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

Lurch wrote:

From reading the other posts it does seem like the thermostat on the
pipe by the fire could be at fault. Although these type of systems can
become quite complex, I've done a few like this before now and each
one has been done slightly differently.
As for who to check it out I would have the plumber check what does
what, how it's meant to work and whether the correct stats and safety
devices are in place. I would also have an electrician come and check
the wiring is safe and that the devices are functioning as they
should.
Many thanks to you all, I'll call someone in tomorrow, - as for a pipe by
the fire - there isn't one. No pipes for miles around. Or thermostats. I
chose the immersion heater as Dave says, because I don't have much faith in
the oil system, also I don't want the boiler running during the summer as it
makes the kitchen too hot. I also want to be able to have quick source of
hot water available maybe as a top up, there's only one of me (and though
I'm very clean!) I don't need gallons of it constantly.

Thanks again, will get on the trail of a reputable company tomorrow.
Liz


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On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:58:50 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Liz"
strung together this:

Lurch wrote:

From reading the other posts it does seem like the thermostat on the
pipe by the fire could be at fault. Although these type of systems can
become quite complex, I've done a few like this before now and each
one has been done slightly differently.
As for who to check it out I would have the plumber check what does
what, how it's meant to work and whether the correct stats and safety
devices are in place. I would also have an electrician come and check
the wiring is safe and that the devices are functioning as they
should.
Many thanks to you all, I'll call someone in tomorrow, - as for a pipe by
the fire - there isn't one. No pipes for miles around. Or thermostats. I
chose the immersion heater as Dave says, because I don't have much faith in
the oil system, also I don't want the boiler running during the summer as it
makes the kitchen too hot. I also want to be able to have quick source of
hot water available maybe as a top up, there's only one of me (and though
I'm very clean!) I don't need gallons of it constantly.

Thanks again, will get on the trail of a reputable company tomorrow.
Liz

There must be a pipe by the fire, or 2 at least. If the fire heats the
water the water must go near the fire, most probably in a pipe. They
may be hidden away in boxing or behind the plaster though. I'm sure
the plumber will find out what's going on though.
Out of interest, where are you, geographically?
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

Lurch wrote:
Many thanks to you all, I'll call someone in tomorrow, - as for a
pipe by the fire - there isn't one. No pipes for miles around. Or
thermostats. I chose the immersion heater as Dave says, because I
don't have much faith in the oil system, also I don't want the
boiler running during the summer as it makes the kitchen too hot. I
also want to be able to have quick source of hot water available
maybe as a top up, there's only one of me (and though I'm very
clean!) I don't need gallons of it constantly.

Thanks again, will get on the trail of a reputable company tomorrow.
Liz

There must be a pipe by the fire, or 2 at least. If the fire heats the
water the water must go near the fire, most probably in a pipe. They
may be hidden away in boxing or behind the plaster though. I'm sure
the plumber will find out what's going on though.
Out of interest, where are you, geographically?
Peak National Park - does it make a difference or can you recommend a good
company?
Liz


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On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:33:08 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Liz"
strung together this:

Lurch wrote:
Many thanks to you all, I'll call someone in tomorrow, - as for a
pipe by the fire - there isn't one. No pipes for miles around. Or
thermostats. I chose the immersion heater as Dave says, because I
don't have much faith in the oil system, also I don't want the
boiler running during the summer as it makes the kitchen too hot. I
also want to be able to have quick source of hot water available
maybe as a top up, there's only one of me (and though I'm very
clean!) I don't need gallons of it constantly.

Thanks again, will get on the trail of a reputable company tomorrow.
Liz

There must be a pipe by the fire, or 2 at least. If the fire heats the
water the water must go near the fire, most probably in a pipe. They
may be hidden away in boxing or behind the plaster though. I'm sure
the plumber will find out what's going on though.
Out of interest, where are you, geographically?

Peak National Park - does it make a difference or can you recommend a good
company?

I wasn't far away from there on Friday! If you're really struggling I
could probably get someone out there, but it is a little out of the
usual area. See if your other electrician comes back first!
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:10:07 GMT, Lurch wrote:

As for who to check it out I would have the plumber check what does
what, how it's meant to work and whether the correct stats and
safety devices are in place.

Which your average plumber is not likely to know. Liz really needs to
search out someone with experience of interfacing solid fuel and
gas/oil boilers. It isn't rocket science but it's a bit more complex
than "hang a combie box on a wall, run a few pipes and feed it mains".
B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:54:26 +0000 (GMT), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Liquorice"
strung together this:

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:10:07 GMT, Lurch wrote:

As for who to check it out I would have the plumber check what does
what, how it's meant to work and whether the correct stats and
safety devices are in place.

Which your average plumber is not likely to know. Liz really needs to
search out someone with experience of interfacing solid fuel and
gas/oil boilers. It isn't rocket science but it's a bit more complex
than "hang a combie box on a wall, run a few pipes and feed it mains".
B-)

Well quite. I should have said find someone on reccomendation who
knows what they're doing rather than picking someone from the yellow
pages. That's why I was asking where Liz was, unfortunately the
closest plumber I know that would know anything about this system is
in Nottingham.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

"Liz" wrote in message
...
Tony wrote:
Harry Ziman wrote:
Is there a switch on the boiler itself? On our systems we can switch
the boilers off (an off position on the thermostat) but the
controller will still switch the pump on and off.

My oil fired boiler has a thermostat which can be set to off (don't
they all?) - its in the boiler house which is not accessible from the
house which is a bit of a pain but if the OP is talking about doing
this seasonally rather than daily that would be OK.

Tony

Thank you, yes I'll investigate this, there is a switch on the boiler,
though also not easily accessible and I could do it in the summer though.
Now I've got the immersion heater that's what I'll do. Thanks

However, I still don't know what to do about the thing coming on all the
time at the moment, as I say, I just switch the power off but can't light
a
fire as the pump is also off then. I wish I understood more about how
these
2 systems work together and I could possibly work it out then - my big diy
book can't help here.

Thanks again

Liz


Are you familiar with the Dunsley Neutraliser system? If a proper marrying
up of two systems has been done this is one way to do it. I think you should
be able to find Dunsley with a quick Google and track down the controls etc.
There is of course a very big BUT here if your system is a cobbled together
job by someone with more enthisiasm than knowledge.
You may find that you can shut off the oil boiler at the time control and
rely on the pipe thermostat to kick in the pump when the solid fuel boiler
gets hot but its going to take a good coat of looking at to sort out what
has actually been done in your case.