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Default conduction

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?

Bill

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On 03/06/2021 14:02, williamwright wrote:
If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


I guess touch points are a singularity, but while they represent a small
diameter they also represent a very short one too.

R = p(resistivity) x A / L

As L tend towards being infinitely short then the resistance from
touching conductors is minimal.

Nothing wrong with trying to understand things that aren't immediately
obvious.

BICBW
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On 03/06/2021 14:02, williamwright wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow.


In metals there are usually an abundance of free electrons - these are
very easy to separate from the atom which they orbit, and move to
another one close by. Hence any conductive atom in close proximity can
share its electrons, and allow a current to flow.

Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.


Air is an insulator, but it has a breakdown voltage (aka "dielectric
strength") where given enough voltage or "electrical field strength" you
can rip electrons from the atoms, even though they are not usually
"free". The insulator is then said to have become "ionised" and will
become conductive at least while the material remains ionised.

The point at which this happens is an intrinsic property of the
material, but it's also a function of distance distance. For air you
need a voltage difference of around 3kV/mm to cause a breakdown. o to
get a spark to jump a metre you need a megavolt, but only 300V for a
tenth of a mm and so on.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


Because you are a bright spark ?


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John.

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On 2021-06-03, williamwright wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


It is all part of the rich pageantry of life.
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On Thu, 03 Jun 2021 14:02:23 +0100, williamwright wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?

Bill



Only if there is a potential difference over the junction. Two disimilar
metals can cause a current (electron) flow depending on the
temperature at the join.


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williamwright wrote

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow between
them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching? That's
ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more intimate
bonding between conductors for current to flow.


No it doesnt with the lower currents.

Even if the conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.


Only if there is a significant voltage across the gap.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


Thats just the Alzheimer's, nothing to worry about.

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On 03/06/2021 14:02, williamwright wrote:
If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?

Bill

What do you mean by "merely touched"?

Once there is any contact force, there is a contact area and assuming
the metals are clean, a constriction resistance (which you can look up
for yourself).

Actually if you bring two copper wires close enough then Van der Waals
forces will cause them to be attracted together so if they are flexible
enough they will end up in contact.

And even if they are not touching, put a potential drop across them and
even if the dielectric strength of the air is not exceeded, there will
be some quantum tunnelling.

There are very few stupid questions.
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On 03/06/2021 14:02, williamwright wrote:
Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


Newsgroup alt.twaddle.twaddle beckons. Go for it!
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Default Lonely Obnoxious Cantankerous Auto-contradicting Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!

On Fri, 4 Jun 2021 03:37:57 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



No


Hahahahahaaa!!! Auto-contradicting senile idiot!

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On 03/06/2021 14:52, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/06/2021 14:02, williamwright wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow.


In metals there are usually an abundance of free electrons - these are
very easy to separate from the atom which they orbit, and move to
another one close by. Hence any conductive atom in close proximity can
share its electrons, and allow a current to flow.

Even if the conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.


Air is an insulator, but it has a breakdown voltage (aka "dielectric
strength") where given enough voltage or "electrical field strength" you
can rip electrons from the atoms, even though they are not usually
"free". The insulator is then said to have become "ionised" and will
become conductive at least while the material remains ionised.

The point at which this happens is an intrinsic property of the
material, but it's also a function of distance distance. For air you
need a voltage difference of around 3kV/mm to cause a breakdown. o to
get a spark to jump a metre you need a megavolt, but only 300V for a
tenth of a mm and so on.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


Because you are a bright spark ?


Thanks John. A good answer.

Bill



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On 03/06/2021 15:04, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2021-06-03, williamwright wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


It is all part of the rich pageantry of life.

Do you mean the phantasmagoria?

Bill
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On 03/06/2021 18:37, Rod Speed wrote:
williamwright wrote

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow.


No it doesnt with the lower currents.

Even if the conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.


Only if there is a significant voltage across the gap.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


Thats just the Alzheimer's, nothing to worry about.


**** off Rod.

Bill
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On 03/06/2021 20:07, williamwright wrote:
On 03/06/2021 14:52, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/06/2021 14:02, williamwright wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just
touching? That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to
need more intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow.


In metals there are usually an abundance of free electrons - these are
very easy to separate from the atom which they orbit, and move to
another one close by. Hence any conductive atom in close proximity can
share its electrons, and allow a current to flow.

Even if the conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.


Air is an insulator, but it has a breakdown voltage (aka "dielectric
strength") where given enough voltage or "electrical field strength"
you can rip electrons from the atoms, even though they are not usually
"free". The insulator is then said to have become "ionised" and will
become conductive at least while the material remains ionised.

The point at which this happens is an intrinsic property of the
material, but it's also a function of distance distance. For air you
need a voltage difference of around 3kV/mm to cause a breakdown. o to
get a spark to jump a metre you need a megavolt, but only 300V for a
tenth of a mm and so on.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


Because you are a bright spark ?


Thanks John. A good answer.


It was if you gloss over the bit where I left out the "three" in front
of megavolt :-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/
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On 03/06/2021 20:12, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/06/2021 20:07, williamwright wrote:
On 03/06/2021 14:52, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/06/2021 14:02, williamwright wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just
touching? That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to
need more intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow.

In metals there are usually an abundance of free electrons - these
are very easy to separate from the atom which they orbit, and move to
another one close by. Hence any conductive atom in close proximity
can share its electrons, and allow a current to flow.

Even if the conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Air is an insulator, but it has a breakdown voltage (aka "dielectric
strength") where given enough voltage or "electrical field strength"
you can rip electrons from the atoms, even though they are not
usually "free". The insulator is then said to have become "ionised"
and will become conductive at least while the material remains ionised.

The point at which this happens is an intrinsic property of the
material, but it's also a function of distance distance. For air you
need a voltage difference of around 3kV/mm to cause a breakdown. o to
get a spark to jump a metre you need a megavolt, but only 300V for a
tenth of a mm and so on.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?

Because you are a bright spark ?


Thanks John. A good answer.


It was if you gloss over the bit where I left out the "three" in front
of megavolt :-)


Weren't you assuming a humid atmosphere and sharpish points for the two
conductors? :-)
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On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 20:52:31 +0100, Fredxx, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile smartass, blathered again:


Weren't you assuming a humid atmosphere and sharpish points for the two
conductors? :-)


Weren't you and will you not ALWAYS be a notorious smartass, dumb senile
Freddie, you demented old troll lover? BG


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On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 14:02:23 +0100, williamwright
wrote:


If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?

Bill


"ridiculous"? You were once the aerial expert, but now you've sunk to
nutter status in my eyes. By all means wonder, but please research
before posting here.
--
Dave W
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On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 22:32:39 +0200, Peeler
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 20:52:31 +0100, Fredxx, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile smartass, blathered again:


Weren't you assuming a humid atmosphere and sharpish points for the two
conductors? :-)


Weren't you and will you not ALWAYS be a notorious smartass, dumb senile
Freddie, you demented old troll lover? BG


I wonder if he will be able to get his tongue back out?

Cheers, T i m
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On 03/06/2021 22:26, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 22:32:39 +0200, Peeler
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 20:52:31 +0100, Fredxx, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile smartass, blathered again:


Weren't you assuming a humid atmosphere and sharpish points for the two
conductors? :-)


Weren't you and will you not ALWAYS be a notorious smartass, dumb senile
Freddie, you demented old troll lover? BG


I wonder if he will be able to get his tongue back out?

Cheers, T i m


You must be the only one who responds to Peeler. Or were you simply
replying to your own sock?


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Default Professional Smartass Alert! LOL

On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 22:30:45 +0100, Fredxx, the notorious, troll-feeding,
senile smartass, blathered again:


Weren't you and will you not ALWAYS be a notorious smartass, dumb senile
Freddie, you demented old troll lover? BG


I wonder if he will be able to get his tongue back out?

Cheers, T i m


You must be the only one who responds to Peeler. Or were you simply
replying to your own sock?


Oh, my! So much wisdom in one senile head, poor smartass! G
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"williamwright" wrote in message
...
On 03/06/2021 18:37, Rod Speed wrote:
williamwright wrote

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow.


No it doesnt with the lower currents.

Even if the conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.


Only if there is a significant voltage across the gap.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


Thats just the Alzheimer's, nothing to worry about.


**** off Rod.


Go and **** yourself, billy boy.



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Default More Heavy Trolling by the Nym-Shifting Senile Australian Pest!

On Fri, 4 Jun 2021 08:53:10 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
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"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID:
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Because you are inquisitive. There is of course an electrostatic field
around a conductor and the air is not really a great insulator and can break
down and the two different potentials want to be connected. I see no real
quandary. However Superconductors are a different thing altogether. They
somehow can join together in such a way that resistance is just not there at
all, so unless you take energy ot of a system by magnetic loads etc, if you
connect the wire into a loop current will flow all the time until the
leakage reduces the voltage. However its not terribly efficient as the
power to keep it cold enough is quite great. I do not see how you can have
a superconductor at much above absolute zero, ie the temperature where any
attempt to cool it cannot happen as there is nothing colder. I'd imagine
that the Brownian motion in materials at room temperatures is where
resistance comes from, since otherwise you would not get noise in valves and
transistors.
Brian

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"williamwright" wrote in message
...
If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow between
them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching? That's
ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more intimate
bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the conductors
aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?

Bill



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Oh, dear, and I avoided that pun deliberately.
I used to play with transformers and transistor multivibrators when I was
in my teens and was quite surprised just how easy it was to break down air
to make some nice sparks off of, for example an old speaker transformer
wired backwards, a few diodes and capacitors in a ladder and 1 capacitor
across the lot. Even with no actual spark it fizzed away quite well.

The smell was nice but I'm now told ozone is bad for you, sulk.
Brian

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 03/06/2021 14:02, williamwright wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow.


In metals there are usually an abundance of free electrons - these are
very easy to separate from the atom which they orbit, and move to another
one close by. Hence any conductive atom in close proximity can share its
electrons, and allow a current to flow.

Even if the conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.


Air is an insulator, but it has a breakdown voltage (aka "dielectric
strength") where given enough voltage or "electrical field strength" you
can rip electrons from the atoms, even though they are not usually "free".
The insulator is then said to have become "ionised" and will become
conductive at least while the material remains ionised.

The point at which this happens is an intrinsic property of the material,
but it's also a function of distance distance. For air you need a voltage
difference of around 3kV/mm to cause a breakdown. o to get a spark to jump
a metre you need a megavolt, but only 300V for a tenth of a mm and so on.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


Because you are a bright spark ?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/



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And what about static electricity, an issue I've had issues from lately as
may here know. It is after all the basis of vander graph generators and
windshurst machines, both of which I've built with varying success.
Obviously its those ion imbalances again, but why should friction be the
catalyst? We have all had vinyl records charge up merely by the stylus move
through the groove, indeed on one cartridge it actually tended to flash over
tto a screw at times from the record, or when cassettes are run very fast
there are sparks from the hub to the metal spindle of that hub.
Brian

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"williamwright" wrote in message
...
On 03/06/2021 14:52, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/06/2021 14:02, williamwright wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow.


In metals there are usually an abundance of free electrons - these are
very easy to separate from the atom which they orbit, and move to another
one close by. Hence any conductive atom in close proximity can share its
electrons, and allow a current to flow.

Even if the conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.


Air is an insulator, but it has a breakdown voltage (aka "dielectric
strength") where given enough voltage or "electrical field strength" you
can rip electrons from the atoms, even though they are not usually
"free". The insulator is then said to have become "ionised" and will
become conductive at least while the material remains ionised.

The point at which this happens is an intrinsic property of the material,
but it's also a function of distance distance. For air you need a voltage
difference of around 3kV/mm to cause a breakdown. o to get a spark to
jump a metre you need a megavolt, but only 300V for a tenth of a mm and
so on.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


Because you are a bright spark ?


Thanks John. A good answer.

Bill



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On 03/06/2021 20:12, John Rumm wrote:

Thanks John. A good answer.


It was if you gloss over the bit where I left out the "three" in front
of megavolt :-)



A mere bagatelle sir.

Bill


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On 04/06/2021 07:52, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
And what about static electricity


Well that's going nowhere.

Bill
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On 03/06/2021 23:53, Rod Speed wrote:

Thats just the Alzheimer's, nothing to worry about.


**** off Rod.


Go and **** yourself, billy boy.


If only I could.

Bill
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On 03/06/2021 21:51, Dave W wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 14:02:23 +0100, williamwright
wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?

Bill


"ridiculous"? You were once the aerial expert, but now you've sunk to
nutter status in my eyes. By all means wonder, but please research
before posting here.

Clearly you have a very shuttered mind.

Bill
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On 2021-06-03, williamwright wrote:

On 03/06/2021 15:04, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2021-06-03, williamwright wrote:

If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?


It is all part of the rich pageantry of life.

Do you mean the phantasmagoria?


Oops, it's supposed to be "all part of life's rich pageant" (from _A
Shot in the Dark_).
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On 03/06/2021 14:02, williamwright wrote:
If two conductors are merely touched together electricity can flow
between them. That just seems too easy somehow. I mean, just touching?
That's ridiculous. I've always thought that it ought to need more
intimate bonding between conductors for current to flow. Even if the
conductors aren't touching, sometimes there's a spark.

Another question. Why do I wonder about such things?

Bill

Maybe because you have an enquiring mind, most people just accept the facts.
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