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Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
Many thanks to everyone who pitched in on my computer sound thread. Here's
a more traditionally-DIY question: I have to fix two grab rails to the walls of a walk-in shower: these are timber and plasterboard stud walls covered with ceramic tiles. I do have limited access to the other (non-tiled) side of the walls, so I could probably locate the vertical studs by drilling a series of holes, but the rails are a fixed length so even if one end can be secured into timber the other probably could not. Can anyone recommend the best really strong and secure hollow-wall fixings for use through tiles? In the past (on plain walls) I've used the type with two sprung metal arms which open up once through the hole, but I'm concerned in this particular job that the hole has to be considerably larger than the diameter of the bolt: isn't there a danger of the rails, however tightly fixed, being able to slip about slightly, especially on a glossy tiled surface? Thanks for any thoughts. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 23:49:27 -0000, "Bert Coules"
wrote: Many thanks to everyone who pitched in on my computer sound thread. Here's a more traditionally-DIY question: I have to fix two grab rails to the walls of a walk-in shower: these are timber and plasterboard stud walls covered with ceramic tiles. I do have limited access to the other (non-tiled) side of the walls, so I could probably locate the vertical studs by drilling a series of holes, but the rails are a fixed length so even if one end can be secured into timber the other probably could not. Can anyone recommend the best really strong and secure hollow-wall fixings for use through tiles? In the past (on plain walls) I've used the type with two sprung metal arms which open up once through the hole, but I'm concerned in this particular job that the hole has to be considerably larger than the diameter of the bolt: isn't there a danger of the rails, however tightly fixed, being able to slip about slightly, especially on a glossy tiled surface? Thanks for any thoughts. The grab rails have to withstand the full weight of a person, so I wouldn't fancy using spring toggles, which might break the plasterboard. You say the rails are a fixed length - are the ends bent round to the wall, with round flanges to take at least three screws? Do the rails have to be horizontal, or can they be angled so that the fixings coincide with the wooden studs? Or you could put thick pieces of plank behind the plasterboard to take normal screws and spread the load over a large area. -- Dave W |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
Dave W wrote:
The grab rails have to withstand the full weight of a person, so I wouldn't fancy using spring toggles, which might break the plasterboard. Under most circumstances the majority of the force would be directed downwards rather than at ninety degrees away fro the walls, but I take your point. Wouldn't the tiling offer extra resistance though? You say the rails are a fixed length - are the ends bent round to the wall, with round flanges to take at least three screws? Exactly so. Do the rails have to be horizontal, or can they be angled so that the fixings coincide with the wooden studs? Horizontal is preferred. Or you could put thick pieces of plank behind the plasterboard to take normal screws and spread the load over a large area. That would involve some fairly drastic destruction on the non-shower sides of the walls, which would be pretty tricky in one case but could I agree be worth it for the extra strength. Thanks. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 01:35, Bert Coules wrote:
Dave W wrote: The grab rails have to withstand the full weight of a person, so I wouldn't fancy using spring toggles, which might break the plasterboard. Under most But not all circumstances the majority of the force would be directed downwards rather than at ninety degrees away fro the walls, What if someone slips and grabs the rail on the way down? but I take your point.Â* Wouldn't the tiling offer extra resistance though? Not a sound engineering principle! You really can't fasten anything like that to plasterboard. I mean, chances are it would be OK, but it's a bit of a risk, and it isn't a risk you can legitimately take. Bill |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 23/03/2021 23:49, Bert Coules wrote:
Many thanks to everyone who pitched in on my computer sound thread. Here's a more traditionally-DIY question: I have to fix two grab rails to the walls of a walk-in shower: these are timber and plasterboard stud walls covered with ceramic tiles.Â* I do have limited access to the other (non-tiled) side of the walls, so I could probably locate the vertical studs by drilling a series of holes, but the rails are a fixed length so even if one end can be secured into timber the other probably could not. Can anyone recommend the best really strong and secure hollow-wall fixings for use through tiles?Â* In the past (on plain walls) I've used the type with two sprung metal arms which open up once through the hole, but I'm concerned in this particular job that the hole has to be considerably larger than the diameter of the bolt: isn't there a danger of the rails, however tightly fixed, being able to slip about slightly, especially on a glossy tiled surface? Thanks for any thoughts. My experience of this is that the tiles alone are sufficiently good at spreading the load that there is no point in using anything other than a plastic rawlplug - but do use a proper diamond tipped core drill to make perfect holes on the tiles. The surface are of the tile is far greater than any wall fixing could be and since it is a shower you will have proper waterproof tile adhesive so the chance of the tile pulling off the wall is extremely remote. The only better solution would be to fit a noggin from the rear and attach to that - but really, it isn't necessary. All my bathrooms/toilets are done using core drill and rawlpug and in 20 years none have come loose.. -- "I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun". |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 00:32, Dave W wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 23:49:27 -0000, "Bert Coules" wrote: Many thanks to everyone who pitched in on my computer sound thread. Here's a more traditionally-DIY question: I have to fix two grab rails to the walls of a walk-in shower: these are timber and plasterboard stud walls covered with ceramic tiles. I do have limited access to the other (non-tiled) side of the walls, so I could probably locate the vertical studs by drilling a series of holes, but the rails are a fixed length so even if one end can be secured into timber the other probably could not. Can anyone recommend the best really strong and secure hollow-wall fixings for use through tiles? In the past (on plain walls) I've used the type with two sprung metal arms which open up once through the hole, but I'm concerned in this particular job that the hole has to be considerably larger than the diameter of the bolt: isn't there a danger of the rails, however tightly fixed, being able to slip about slightly, especially on a glossy tiled surface? Thanks for any thoughts. The grab rails have to withstand the full weight of a person, Do they? Mostly as I get older I find that I am not aping Tarzan and swinging off handles, but using them as a steady - they take a little lateral load only. so I wouldn't fancy using spring toggles, which might break the plasterboard. You say the rails are a fixed length - are the ends bent round to the wall, with round flanges to take at least three screws? Do the rails have to be horizontal, or can they be angled so that the fixings coincide with the wooden studs? Or you could put thick pieces of plank behind the plasterboard to take normal screws and spread the load over a large area. In the end there are two issues of strength to understand. The first is the issue of the joint between handle and plasterboard, and the second is between plasterboard and stud. As far as the first goes I can assure you that rawlplugs through *accurate* holes in tiles is a good as it gets. in 30 years of hollow wall DIY I have never found *any* 'hollow wall fixing' to be effective. Plasterboard itself is too weak to take point loads. but a tile spreads the load better than anything except a wooden plate . With respect to the plasterboard itself - well unless you by pass it altogether and connect to a noggin attached to a stud, what fixing you use is irrelevant. The plasterboard is only as strong as it is. IN the case of a grab handle that will only be experiencing very strong vertical loads, tiles are your friend. Think of them like a thin brick wall whose buckling is improved by attaching them to a nice stiffening wall. Imagine standing on a tile propped up vertically. It will take your weight far better than a piece of plasterboard placed on edge. So when you think of tiles *structurally*, stop thinking of them as a decorative layer and think of them as actually far stronger than the plasterboard wall - whose purpose is to stop them buckling under load. -- "I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently. This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and all women" |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... On 23/03/2021 23:49, Bert Coules wrote: Many thanks to everyone who pitched in on my computer sound thread. Here's a more traditionally-DIY question: I have to fix two grab rails to the walls of a walk-in shower: these are timber and plasterboard stud walls covered with ceramic tiles. I do have limited access to the other (non-tiled) side of the walls, so I could probably locate the vertical studs by drilling a series of holes, but the rails are a fixed length so even if one end can be secured into timber the other probably could not. Can anyone recommend the best really strong and secure hollow-wall fixings for use through tiles? In the past (on plain walls) I've used the type with two sprung metal arms which open up once through the hole, but I'm concerned in this particular job that the hole has to be considerably larger than the diameter of the bolt: isn't there a danger of the rails, however tightly fixed, being able to slip about slightly, especially on a glossy tiled surface? Thanks for any thoughts. My experience of this is that the tiles alone are sufficiently good at spreading the load that there is no point in using anything other than a plastic rawlplug - but do use a proper diamond tipped core drill to make perfect holes on the tiles. The surface are of the tile is far greater than any wall fixing could be and since it is a shower you will have proper waterproof tile adhesive so the chance of the tile pulling off the wall is extremely remote. The only better solution would be to fit a noggin from the rear and attach to that - but really, it isn't necessary. All my bathrooms/toilets are done using core drill and rawlpug and in 20 years none have come loose.. But have you ever had a bad fall and put your full weight on the grab rail and found it worked fine. THATS what matters. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... On 24/03/2021 00:32, Dave W wrote: On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 23:49:27 -0000, "Bert Coules" wrote: Many thanks to everyone who pitched in on my computer sound thread. Here's a more traditionally-DIY question: I have to fix two grab rails to the walls of a walk-in shower: these are timber and plasterboard stud walls covered with ceramic tiles. I do have limited access to the other (non-tiled) side of the walls, so I could probably locate the vertical studs by drilling a series of holes, but the rails are a fixed length so even if one end can be secured into timber the other probably could not. Can anyone recommend the best really strong and secure hollow-wall fixings for use through tiles? In the past (on plain walls) I've used the type with two sprung metal arms which open up once through the hole, but I'm concerned in this particular job that the hole has to be considerably larger than the diameter of the bolt: isn't there a danger of the rails, however tightly fixed, being able to slip about slightly, especially on a glossy tiled surface? Thanks for any thoughts. The grab rails have to withstand the full weight of a person, Do they? Corse they do if you have a bad fall in the shower. Mostly as I get older I find that I am not aping Tarzan and swinging off handles, but using them as a steady - they take a little lateral load only. They still need to be strongly attached enough so that if you do have a bad fall, they dont come off the wall. so I wouldn't fancy using spring toggles, which might break the plasterboard. You say the rails are a fixed length - are the ends bent round to the wall, with round flanges to take at least three screws? Do the rails have to be horizontal, or can they be angled so that the fixings coincide with the wooden studs? Or you could put thick pieces of plank behind the plasterboard to take normal screws and spread the load over a large area. In the end there are two issues of strength to understand. The first is the issue of the joint between handle and plasterboard, and the second is between plasterboard and stud. As far as the first goes I can assure you that rawlplugs through *accurate* holes in tiles is a good as it gets. Bull****. in 30 years of hollow wall DIY I have never found *any* 'hollow wall fixing' to be effective. Plasterboard itself is too weak to take point loads. but a tile spreads the load better than anything except a wooden plate . With respect to the plasterboard itself - well unless you by pass it altogether and connect to a noggin attached to a stud, what fixing you use is irrelevant. The plasterboard is only as strong as it is. IN the case of a grab handle that will only be experiencing very strong vertical loads, tiles are your friend. Think of them like a thin brick wall whose buckling is improved by attaching them to a nice stiffening wall. Imagine standing on a tile propped up vertically. It will take your weight far better than a piece of plasterboard placed on edge. So when you think of tiles *structurally*, stop thinking of them as a decorative layer and think of them as actually far stronger than the plasterboard wall - whose purpose is to stop them buckling under load. |
More Heavy Trolling by Senile Nym-Shifting Rodent Speed!
On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:24:28 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: But have you ever had a bad fall and put your full weight on the grab rail and found it worked fine. THAT¢S what matters. What REALLY matters is to see that you are a trolling piece of self-opinonated senile ****, senile Rodent! -- Richard about senile Rodent: "Rod Speed, a bare faced pig and ignorant ****." MID: |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 01:35, Bert Coules wrote:
Dave W wrote: The grab rails have to withstand the full weight of a person, so I wouldn't fancy using spring toggles, which might break the plasterboard. Under most circumstances the majority of the force would be directed downwards rather than at ninety degrees away fro the walls, but I take your point.Â* Wouldn't the tiling offer extra resistance though? Not really. Your least bad option is probably to put the rail holes towards the top of a tile so that if it were ever to be subject to full falling body dynamic stress the tile will act as a load spreader. I wouldn't like to bet on it holding up under those circumstances. It would probably be OK for holding onto under normal conditions, but when you really needed it to save yourself from a fall it might fail. You say the rails are a fixed length - are the ends bent round to the wall, with round flanges to take at least three screws? Exactly so. Trouble is that three screw hole into the plasterboard weakens the bit in the middle - especially in a shower situation. Had one heater in our VH lever itself off a lath and plaster wall during the winter as the cold and damp made the plaster slightly softer than in mid summer when they had been installed. It is now fixed with butterfly wing load spreaders which require a huge hole to go through the wall. It was the top fixings that were pulled out by the cantilever load of the wall hung heater. Do the rails have to be horizontal, or can they be angled so that the fixings coincide with the wooden studs? Horizontal is preferred. Or you could put thick pieces of plank behind the plasterboard to take normal screws and spread the load over a large area. That would involve some fairly drastic destruction on the non-shower sides of the walls, which would be pretty tricky in one case but could I agree be worth it for the extra strength. It might be the only realistic option to make it safe. If you are falling and grab a rail the forces are partly downwards and also away from the wall but with a huge dynamic torque as well trying to lever the thing off the wall. I'm not sure how well pasterboard will stand up to that particularly if as seems likely it may become damp as well. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 23/03/2021 23:49, Bert Coules wrote:
Many thanks to everyone who pitched in on my computer sound thread. Here's a more traditionally-DIY question: I have to fix two grab rails to the walls of a walk-in shower: these are timber and plasterboard stud walls covered with ceramic tiles.Â* I do have limited access to the other (non-tiled) side of the walls, so I could probably locate the vertical studs by drilling a series of holes, but the rails are a fixed length so even if one end can be secured into timber the other probably could not. Can anyone recommend the best really strong and secure hollow-wall fixings for use through tiles?Â* In the past (on plain walls) I've used the type with two sprung metal arms which open up once through the hole, but I'm concerned in this particular job that the hole has to be considerably larger than the diameter of the bolt: isn't there a danger of the rails, however tightly fixed, being able to slip about slightly, especially on a glossy tiled surface? Thanks for any thoughts. If you *really* can't modify the grab rails to suit the (probably 400mm) stud spacing then I would go to plan B and find or make some grab rails the right length. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
Many thanks for all the replies and the (very varied, as usual) advice.
I think as a preliminary move I'll drill a series of holes in the other (non-tiled) side of the two walls and try to determine the exact position of the vertical battens. Do those electronic stud-locators have any value? I borrowed one many moons ago but the results were far from definite. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
|
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 10:33, Bert Coules wrote:
Many thanks for all the replies and the (very varied, as usual) advice. I think as a preliminary move I'll drill a series of holes in the other (non-tiled) side of the two walls and try to determine the exact position of the vertical battens. Do those electronic stud-locators have any value?Â* I borrowed one many moons ago but the results were far from definite. i use a series of very powerful neodymium magnets to locate the plasterboard screws/nails...... May not work well though with tiles increasing the gap between nail/screw heads and the neodymium magnet. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
|
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 10:53, SH wrote:
On 24/03/2021 10:33, Bert Coules wrote: Many thanks for all the replies and the (very varied, as usual) advice. I think as a preliminary move I'll drill a series of holes in the other (non-tiled) side of the two walls and try to determine the exact position of the vertical battens. Do those electronic stud-locators have any value?Â* I borrowed one many moons ago but the results were far from definite. i use a series of very powerful neodymium magnets to locate the plasterboard screws/nails...... May not work well though with tiles increasing the gap between nail/screw heads and the neodymium magnet. +1. I have an ex-microwave circular magnet and it allows me to locate plasterboard nails quite easily. Also handy for holding a collection of long drill bits and metal tools in my understairs workroom. Sticks to a ladderax upright and holds lots of things. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
SH & Andrew, thanks for the idea of using a magnet (or more than one) to
detect plasterboard nails or screws. Apart from a defunct microwave oven, what would be a source for a suitably powerful magnet? |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 11:28, Bert Coules wrote:
SH & Andrew, thanks for the idea of using a magnet (or more than one) to detect plasterboard nails or screws. Apart from a defunct microwave oven, what would be a source for a suitably powerful magnet? A defunct or unusably small hard-disk. However, neodinium magnets are pretty cheap online - try Amazon, Ebay or the like. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
Steve Walker wrote:
Apart from a defunct microwave oven, what would be a source for a suitably powerful magnet? A defunct or unusably small hard-disk. Well, I have a few of those. More than a few, in fact. I'll get dismantling. Thanks. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 12:07, Bert Coules wrote:
Well, I have a few of those.Â* More than a few, in fact.Â* I'll get dismantling. Watch your fingers, ye don't want ya flesh pinched. and keep them away from ya nose, just in case ye feel the urge ... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-52094804 -- Adrian C |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
Watch your fingers, ye don't want ya flesh pinched. I've removed one magnet from a dead drive but am having trouble parting it from its metal cradle. I might simply use a steel probe attached to the magnet but extending beyond the cradle - or will the complete strength of the magnet be reduced slightly through a separate piece of metal? Thanks for the link. Dire warning noted. Incidentally, this is the first time I've opened a hard drive; it's a tad terrifying to see just how small and frail the pick-up arms and heads (not the correct term, I imagine) are, given how much one relies on them. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 06:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/03/2021 00:32, Dave W wrote: On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 23:49:27 -0000, "Bert Coules" wrote: Many thanks to everyone who pitched in on my computer sound thread. Here's a more traditionally-DIY question: I have to fix two grab rails to the walls of a walk-in shower: these are timber and plasterboard stud walls covered with ceramic tiles.Â* I do have limited access to the other (non-tiled) side of the walls, so I could probably locate the vertical studs by drilling a series of holes, but the rails are a fixed length so even if one end can be secured into timber the other probably could not. Can anyone recommend the best really strong and secure hollow-wall fixings for use through tiles?Â* In the past (on plain walls) I've used the type with two sprung metal arms which open up once through the hole, but I'm concerned in this particular job that the hole has to be considerably larger than the diameter of the bolt: isn't there a danger of the rails, however tightly fixed, being able to slip about slightly, especially on a glossy tiled surface? Thanks for any thoughts. The grab rails have to withstand the full weight of a person, Do they? Mostly as I get older I find that I am not aping Tarzan and swinging off handles, but using them as a steady - they take a little lateral load only. Â*so I wouldn't fancy using spring toggles, which might break the plasterboard. You say the rails are a fixed length - are the ends bent round to the wall, with round flanges to take at least three screws? Do the rails have to be horizontal, or can they be angled so that the fixings coincide with the wooden studs? Or you could put thick pieces of plank behind the plasterboard to take normal screws and spread the load over a large area. In the end there are two issues of strength to understand. The first is the issue of the joint between handle and plasterboard, and the second is between plasterboard and stud. As far as the first goes I can assure you that rawlplugs through *accurate* holes in tiles is a good as it gets. in 30 years of hollow wall DIY I have never found *any* 'hollow wall fixing' to be effective. Plasterboard itself is too weak to take point loads. but a tile spreads the load better than anything except a wooden plate . With respect to the plasterboard itself - well unless you by pass it altogether and connect to a noggin attached to a stud, what fixing you use is irrelevant. The plasterboard is only as strong as it is. IN the case of a grab handle that will only be experiencing very strong vertical loads, tiles are your friend. Think of them like a thin brick wall whose buckling is improved by attaching them to a nice stiffening wall. Imagine standing on a tile propped up vertically. It will take your weight far better than a piece of plasterboard placed on edge. So when you think of tiles *structurally*, stop thinking of them as a decorative layer and think of them as actually far stronger than the plasterboard wall - whose purpose is to stop them buckling under load. I agree with all that, but I think there are too many uncertainties to be sure of the best option. Are they thin, 4 inch tiles or thick, 12 inch ones? The latter, provided they are well secured to the plasterboard, will be more secure. 12mm plasterboard will be better than 9mm. One concern, especially with small tiles, is whether putting load on the rails might eventually crack the grout, letting water through and eventually making the whole lot weak. My first attempt (quite a long time ago) at building and tiling a shower cubicle eventually failed for this reason. Quite possibly because of my lack of competence. Since then, I have only used Mermaid or similar melamine faced board in applications like this. I'm with Dave; especially if it is a heavy person with a risk of falling heavily I'd be looking to provide more support from the back. For example a (roughly) square piece of 18mm ply between the studs and against the plasterboard. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 10:53, SH wrote:
On 24/03/2021 10:33, Bert Coules wrote: Many thanks for all the replies and the (very varied, as usual) advice. I think as a preliminary move I'll drill a series of holes in the other (non-tiled) side of the two walls and try to determine the exact position of the vertical battens. Do those electronic stud-locators have any value?Â* I borrowed one many moons ago but the results were far from definite. i use a series of very powerful neodymium magnets to locate the plasterboard screws/nails...... May not work well though with tiles increasing the gap between nail/screw heads and the neodymium magnet. +1, but should work on the other side. A technique I sometimes use with lath and plaster (I have some washer-shaped magnets with a hole in) is to dangle them from a foot or two of sewing thread and use them sort of like a plumb line. You will spot the fact that they won't swing or hang quite right as you move them around when the magnet is near a screw or nail. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 12:07, Bert Coules wrote:
Steve Walker wrote: Apart from a defunct microwave oven, what would be a source for a suitably powerful magnet? A defunct or unusably small hard-disk. Well, I have a few of those.Â* More than a few, in fact.Â* I'll get dismantling. Thanks. All sorts of sizes and shapes on eBay. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
newshound wrote:
A technique I sometimes use with lath and plaster... is to dangle them from a foot or two of sewing thread... That's a nice tip; thanks. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
newshound wrote:
I'm with Dave; especially if it is a heavy person with a risk of falling heavily I'd be looking to provide more support from the back. For example a (roughly) square piece of 18mm ply between the studs and against the plasterboard. I agree that this is the ideal solution, the practical drawback being that access to the inside of the walls can only be obtained by removing the plasterboard on the other side, necessitating a pretty extreme job of replacing, replastering, and repainting. Plus the fact that though this is perfectly possible on one side of the shower, the reverse of the wall on the other side is far less accessible. Probably worth the effort, though, if finding and using the studs doesn't prove practical. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
In article ,
Bert Coules wrote: Many thanks to everyone who pitched in on my computer sound thread. Here's a more traditionally-DIY question: I have to fix two grab rails to the walls of a walk-in shower: these are timber and plasterboard stud walls covered with ceramic tiles. I do have limited access to the other (non-tiled) side of the walls, so I could probably locate the vertical studs by drilling a series of holes, but the rails are a fixed length so even if one end can be secured into timber the other probably could not. Can anyone recommend the best really strong and secure hollow-wall fixings for use through tiles? In the past (on plain walls) I've used the type with two sprung metal arms which open up once through the hole, but I'm concerned in this particular job that the hole has to be considerably larger than the diameter of the bolt: isn't there a danger of the rails, however tightly fixed, being able to slip about slightly, especially on a glossy tiled surface? I'd say a grab rail needs to be fixed to something a lot stronger than plasterboard. If you have access to the other side, remove a bit of that plasterboard and fit a decent noggin between the studs, and fix through the tiles to that. -- *You're never too old to learn something stupid. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
In article ,
Bert Coules wrote: Do the rails have to be horizontal, or can they be angled so that the fixings coincide with the wooden studs? Horizontal is preferred. I fitted a vertical one to my shower cubical fixed into a stud. In practice, it's OK to use. For me, mainly to hang on to while washing one foot at a time. -- *Bills travel through the mail at twice the speed of cheques * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
If you have access to the other side, remove a bit of that plasterboard and fit a decent noggin between the studs, and fix through the tiles to that. This does seem to be a popular suggestion, so thanks. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
In article ,
Bert Coules wrote: Dave Plowman (News) wrote: If you have access to the other side, remove a bit of that plasterboard and fit a decent noggin between the studs, and fix through the tiles to that. This does seem to be a popular suggestion, so thanks. It's a bit like mounting radiators or anything else at grabbing height. If you trip (or whatever) it's a natural response to grab the nearest thing. So I like to make sure it can take the weight. -- *Red meat is not bad for you. Fuzzy green meat is bad for you. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I fitted a vertical one to my shower cubical fixed into a stud. In practice, it's OK to use. In this particular instance that would be possible only on one side of the enclosure, since the other is half height and topped with glass. For me, mainly to hang on to while washing one foot at a time. I think that's exactly the sort of use envisaged: an aid to balance rather than a quick-grab resort in the event of a possible fall. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 11:28, Bert Coules wrote:
SH & Andrew, thanks for the idea of using a magnet (or more than one) to detect plasterboard nails or screws. Apart from a defunct microwave oven, what would be a source for a suitably powerful magnet? old loudspeaker or DC electric motor -- €œIdeas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance" - John K Galbraith |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 16:02, Bert Coules wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote: I fitted a vertical one to my shower cubical fixed into a stud. In practice, it's OK to use. In this particular instance that would be possible only on one side of the enclosure, since the other is half height and topped with glass. For me, mainly to hang on to while washing one foot at a time. I think that's exactly the sort of use envisaged: an aid to balance rather than a quick-grab resort in the event of a possible fall. That may be what's envisaged, but it does need to have the strength to withstand someone slipping and grabbing it to stay upright or at least slow their fall, because someone starting to fall is going to grab whatever they can. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 16:02, Bert Coules wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote: I fitted a vertical one to my shower cubical fixed into a stud. In practice, it's OK to use. In this particular instance that would be possible only on one side of the enclosure, since the other is half height and topped with glass. For me, mainly to hang on to while washing one foot at a time. I think that's exactly the sort of use envisaged: an aid to balance rather than a quick-grab resort in the event of a possible fall. I got a bit interested in this and went looking for the strength of tiles. It looks like even crappy roof style tiles are around 10,000 psi for pure compressive loading Assuming te full weight of a human is going to end up on a surface are of say 1/4" thick by 1/4" rawlplug diameter that's one sixteenth of square inch so the stress of say a 15st hulk (210lb) at 3,360 psi is not going to break the tile What that means is that you can stand on a 1/4" square piece of metal on a tile and not break it if its supported from below, and that actual compressions strength on a properly grouted wall is simply not a problem. The obvious failure mode is that you pull laterally and the whole plasterboard wall collapses. Because that is plasterboard covered in tiles in TENSION. and its about ten times weaker in tension, but again that tension will be spread out over the entire height of the wall, not 1/4" square. Could a man support his weight on - say a horizontal batten screwed to a bit of 400mm wide plasterboard, fastened with plasterboard screws to a couple of studs? I think he could, especially if covered in tiles. In the end its a rather nasty version of a centre loaded end supported beam, of rather broad width. the failure mode here would be the plasterboard giving way along a grout line. Now the formula for a beam failure is that the tensile load in the face of the beam where the pull is, should not exceed the tensile strength of the material, and for a 16" wide bit of plasterboard of say 6" width 1/2" thick, we have approximately 8/.25=64 x 210 / 6 = 2000 psi. which is above the 300 or so psi that plasterboard can handle. What does THIS mean. It means you cant support a 15 stone man on a 6" wide strip of plasterboard ceiling on 400mm studs no matter what the attachment is. Its doubtful even on an infinite width. So the engineering problem is now what sort of attachment, but whether or not the wall itself can stand the load under ANY sort of attachment It is absolutely clear that a vertical load is AOK. the plasterboard and ceramic composite is well able to handle the load and the tiles will spread the stress concentration of a rawlplug just fine. What is now at issue is how much lateral load can the wall take before it tears off the studs and how likely a person grabbing for a handle would actually exter in that direction. Her wqe can consider the reverse case - -a person falling AGAINST a plasterboard wall - will it break? My experience says it wont. That you need a club hammer to punch a hole in a plasterboard wall, leaning or falling against it is not enough . What is the conclusion? The first conclusion is that the type of fixing is irrelevant. Once the wall is tiled it has sufficient strength due to the tile to handle any sort of fixing, and my experience shows that whilst a plasterboard wall is crap at taking a rawlplug, a tiled wall is brilliant. The second conclusion is that the plasterboard wall itself - not the fixing area - but the whole wall, is the weak spot from a lateral load. You wont pull the rawlplugs out but you might *just* pull down the whole wall section between the studs if you really really grabbed hard, or jerked on it while falling I think its *really unlikely*, but if it bothers you the ONLY solution is to reinforce the plasterboard at that point and since that means going in behind it, you might as well add a noggin. Personally I simply would not bother. Especially since there is generally a horizontal noggin about halfway up a stud wall where you should be able to fix to it, or near it. That changes the stress equations dramatically The beam equations that apply are no longer 400mm load in middle supported at the ends, but a much shorter - the vertical distance to the noggin - end supported cantilever. If you have such you dont need to fasten into it, just near it, and the job is done You should be able to ID studs and noggins by tapping on the back side of the wall. -- €œI know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.€ €• Leo Tolstoy |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 16:10, Steve Walker wrote:
On 24/03/2021 16:02, Bert Coules wrote: Dave Plowman (News) wrote: I fitted a vertical one to my shower cubical fixed into a stud. In practice, it's OK to use. In this particular instance that would be possible only on one side of the enclosure, since the other is half height and topped with glass. For me, mainly to hang on to while washing one foot at a time. I think that's exactly the sort of use envisaged: an aid to balance rather than a quick-grab resort in the event of a possible fall. That may be what's envisaged, but it does need to have the strength to withstand someone slipping and grabbing it to stay upright or at least slow their fall, because someone starting to fall is going to grab whatever they can. I still think you would have a hard job ripping the wall down. Because I can assure you that a rawlplug in a tile hole will not pull out -- Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas? Josef Stalin |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I got a bit interested in this and went looking for the strength of tiles. Many thanks for that: the details are fascinating. This is nothing to do with structural strength and safety considerations, but I've seen it said (both here and elsewhere) that if a wallplug is inserted into a tiled wall such that the end of the plug is flush with the face of the tile (any lip or flange on the plug having been removed) then there's a danger that tightening the screw can cause enough lateral expansion in the plug to crack the tile. It would be mildly annoying to successfully have drilled the tiles and then have that happen. |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 17:45, Bert Coules wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: I got a bit interested in this and went looking for the strength of tiles. Many thanks for that: the details are fascinating. This is nothing to do with structural strength and safety considerations, but I've seen it said (both here and elsewhere) that if a wallplug is inserted into a tiled wall such that the end of the plug is flush with the face of the tile (any lip or flange on the plug having been removed) then there's a danger that tightening the screw can cause enough lateral expansion in the plug to crack the tile. It would be mildly annoying to successfully have drilled the tiles and then have that happen. Never happened to me, but then I drill my holes exactly to IIRC 6mm using a diamond core drill (got it in homebase for less than a tenner) and use a red plug. I cannot emphasise enough how much better a diamond core drill is than anything else when attacking brittle tiles - ceramic or stone... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6mm-14mm-...K/363323216959 is the sort of thing and the exact plug is https://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-...100-pack/35984 In practice all the expansion happens behind the tile - the screw generally has a plain portion of shank and the plug has a large diameter start section. Experience has taught me to use exactly the right drill plug and screw. If you end up using a bigger plug, get the right drill for it. And use the right screw. I have to say that no part of my house is actually done in plain cheap white 3mm thick 'trade' tiles. So I can't answer for those. -- Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend. "Saki" |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Never happened to me, but then I drill my holes exactly to IIRC 6mm using a diamond core drill (got it in homebase for less than a tenner) and use a red plug. Thanks for the links. Is there a difference between a diamond core drill and a diamond *coated* core drill? I ask because an earlier search turned up this set at what seems an astonishingly low price: https://tinyurl.com/kw3hxetc |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 01:35, Bert Coules wrote:
Dave W wrote: The grab rails have to withstand the full weight of a person, so I wouldn't fancy using spring toggles, which might break the plasterboard. Under most circumstances the majority of the force would be directed downwards rather than at ninety degrees away fro the walls, but I take your point.Â* Wouldn't the tiling offer extra resistance though? Wouldn't the forces depend on how the person slips or falls whilst hanging on the the grab rail/ -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
Best hollow-wall fixings through tiles?
On 24/03/2021 18:27, Bert Coules wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Never happened to me, but then I drill my holes exactly to IIRC 6mm using a diamond core drill (got it in homebase for less than a tenner) and use a red plug. Thanks for the links. Is there a difference between a diamond core drill and a diamond *coated* core drill?Â* I ask because an earlier search turned up this set at what seems an astonishingly low price: https://tinyurl.com/kw3hxetc I think they are the same - that small one looks exactly like what I have. I would not expect them to last, so buy for the job only -- Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain |
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