Hi all

Just a point of interest really....

Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for
new builds in any way?

Most contributors here I'm sure will know that, to run efficiently
in condensing mode, the system temperature for condensing
installations needs to be rather lower than older systems. This
means larger radiators are needed to supply satisfactory heat
input to a room with a given heat loss.

It is in the installer's interest to fit smaller radiators at a
lower overall cost. But this would lead to a higher less
efficient system temperature being necessary to sufficiently heat
the property.

Does anyone know if checks are done for heating system efficiency,
particularly on major builders' sites?

If not, then the claimed boiler manufacturer efficiencies will be
meaningless.

Thanks

Phil

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On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 17:43:54 +0000, thescullster wrote:

Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for
new builds in any way?


Through Gassafe and the Boilers Manufacturers Warranty.

The Housebuilders will have very little input on what the Heating people
put in.It will be a sub contractor who does the heating work, and they
will have that Contract through being the cheapest Tender. All the
Housebuilder will demand is a radiator in each room and a boiler to give
the correct heating characteristics for the house. They will not check
the designs.
The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design
failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault.

Also of course a lot, and I mean a lot of people seem to be getting their
boilers replaced at the moment for condensing ones using the old radiator
runs, what effect does that have on the assumed better economy of the new
boiler? Brian

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"Alan" wrote in message
o.uk...
On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 17:43:54 +0000, thescullster wrote:

Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for
new builds in any way?


Through Gassafe and the Boilers Manufacturers Warranty.

The Housebuilders will have very little input on what the Heating people
put in.It will be a sub contractor who does the heating work, and they
will have that Contract through being the cheapest Tender. All the
Housebuilder will demand is a radiator in each room and a boiler to give
the correct heating characteristics for the house. They will not check
the designs.
The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design
failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault.

On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 17:43:54 +0000, thescullster wrote:

Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for
new builds in any way?


Through Gassafe and the Boilers Manufacturers Warranty.

The Housebuilders will have very little input on what the Heating people
put in.It will be a sub contractor who does the heating work, and they
will have that Contract through being the cheapest Tender. All the
Housebuilder will demand is a radiator in each room and a boiler to give
the correct heating characteristics for the house. They will not check
the designs.
The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design
failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault.



The builder may well do so. But that doesn't mean they can get away
with it. As usual, it all depends on the contract. Builders don't
/have/ to provide any heating. But most new builds will have heating;
and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a
separate contract with the heating engineer. Heating systems are also
covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say
about heating systems if they are provided. E.g.

https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-services/8-1-internal-services/8-1-10-space-heating-systems/



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote:

The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design
failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault.

The builder may well do so. But that doesn't mean they can get away
with it. As usual, it all depends on the contract. Builders don't
/have/ to provide any heating. But most new builds will have heating;
and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a
separate contract with the heating engineer. Heating systems are also
covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say
about heating systems if they are provided. E.g.

https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10-
space-heating-systems/

Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the
plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and
tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have
sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable.

On 25/01/2021 16:59, Alan wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote:

The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design
failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault.

The builder may well do so. But that doesn't mean they can get away
with it. As usual, it all depends on the contract. Builders don't
/have/ to provide any heating. But most new builds will have heating;
and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a
separate contract with the heating engineer. Heating systems are also
covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say
about heating systems if they are provided. E.g.

https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10-
space-heating-systems/

Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the
plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and
tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have
sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable.


I repeat, it all depends on the contract: if your contract is with the
builder for a house with a heating system then then it's the builder who
is liable if the heating system is faulty.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 25/01/2021 17:12, Robin wrote:
On 25/01/2021 16:59, Alan wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote:

The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design
failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault.

The builder may well do so.Â* But that doesn't mean they can get away
with it.Â* As usual, it all depends on the contract.Â* Builders don't
/have/ to provide any heating.Â* But most new builds will have heating;
and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a
separate contract with the heating engineer.Â* Heating systems are also
covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say
about heating systems if they are provided.Â* E.g.

https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10-
space-heating-systems/

Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the
plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and
tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have
sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable.


I repeat, it all depends on the contract: if your contract is with the
builder for a house with a heating system then then it's the builder who
is liable if the heating system is faulty.





Or the architect?

This post is about design flaws not failures.

OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on.

It is massively over specced but seems to give little consideration to
anything to do with assisting the boiler to modulate.

It also probably has the worst UFH setup I have ever seen - I had a
regular poster pop in and have a look at it so that he knows how not to
do it when he fits his own UFH.

It's going to end up with overheated rooms and cold rooms.

All fitted to the architects specs and drawings.


--
Adam

On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 08:30:16 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 02:16:30 -0600, Alan wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 17:43:54 +0000, thescullster wrote:

Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for
new builds in any way?


Through Gassafe and the Boilers Manufacturers Warranty.

The Housebuilders will have very little input on what the Heating people
put in.It will be a sub contractor who does the heating work, and they
will have that Contract through being the cheapest Tender. All the
Housebuilder will demand is a radiator in each room and a boiler to give
the correct heating characteristics for the house. They will not check
the designs.

I understand that the heating engineer does a calculation taking into
account the room sizes, outside wall areas etc, to work out the number
and sizes of the radiators needed and hence the boiler capacity. There
are probably formulae on boiler or radiator mfrs web sites for doing it.
From what the OP was asking, that formula ought to include the
temperature that the boiler is set to, or do the formulae just assume a
value, such as 65C or whatever?

I very much doubt that there are any calculations done regarding boiler
feed and return temperatures compared to the room sizes and a standard
temperature for that room.
They'll just see a 3 metre square room, think 'we'll need a 600btu
radiator for that room' and that is as far as the calculations will go.

On 25/01/2021 17:03, Alan wrote:
They'll just see a 3 metre square room, think 'we'll need a 600btu
radiator for that room' and that is as far as the calculations will go.
and mostly they wont be *wrong*

--
€œPuritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.€�

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

On 24/01/2021 17:43, thescullster wrote:
Hi all

Just a point of interest really....

Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for
new builds in any way?

Most contributors here I'm sure will know that, to run efficiently
in condensing mode, the system temperature for condensing
installations needs to be rather lower than older systems. This
means larger radiators are needed to supply satisfactory heat
input to a room with a given heat loss.

It is in the installer's interest to fit smaller radiators at a
lower overall cost. But this would lead to a higher less
efficient system temperature being necessary to sufficiently heat
the property.

Does anyone know if checks are done for heating system efficiency,
particularly on major builders' sites?

If not, then the claimed boiler manufacturer efficiencies will be
meaningless.

Thanks

Phil


Don't Building Regs make you adhere to something like the
SAP rating of the proposed construction ?.

A farming friend built a new bungalow on his land and the
BCO made him fit a particular type of fire-behind-glass
which he had every intention of removing so he could have
a blazing open fire instead. Not sure what the outcome was.

On 24 Jan 2021 at 17:43:54 GMT, "thescullster"
wrote:

Hi all

Just a point of interest really....

Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for
new builds in any way?


Related piece in the Guardian today:


https://www.theguardian.com/environm...e-them-greener

Householders buying brand new homes in the next four years are likely to find
an unpleasant surprise awaiting them in the futu homes built today will
have to be retrofitted with energy efficiency measures and low-carbon
technology, at an average cost of more than £20,000.


--
Cheers, Rob

On 25/01/2021 15:54, RJH wrote:
On 24 Jan 2021 at 17:43:54 GMT, "thescullster"
wrote:

Hi all

Just a point of interest really....

Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for
new builds in any way?


Related piece in the Guardian today:


https://www.theguardian.com/environm...e-them-greener

Householders buying brand new homes in the next four years are likely to find
an unpleasant surprise awaiting them in the futu homes built today will
have to be retrofitted with energy efficiency measures and low-carbon
technology, at an average cost of more than £20,000.



More project fear from the Labour party. Building regs are never
retrospective, apart from updating gas and electrical installations.

And no-one knows where that mythical £20K figure comes from. The
Grundian article avoided any elaboration too.

Houses being built today are far more energy efficient than
the millions+ built in the 1970's and 80's.

Remember, it was NuLabs 'warm house' project that resulted in
Grenfell Tower being clad the way it was.