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Heating System Design for New House Builds
Hi all
Just a point of interest really.... Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for new builds in any way? Most contributors here I'm sure will know that, to run efficiently in condensing mode, the system temperature for condensing installations needs to be rather lower than older systems. This means larger radiators are needed to supply satisfactory heat input to a room with a given heat loss. It is in the installer's interest to fit smaller radiators at a lower overall cost. But this would lead to a higher less efficient system temperature being necessary to sufficiently heat the property. Does anyone know if checks are done for heating system efficiency, particularly on major builders' sites? If not, then the claimed boiler manufacturer efficiencies will be meaningless. Thanks Phil -- ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 17:43:54 +0000, thescullster wrote:
Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for new builds in any way? Through Gassafe and the Boilers Manufacturers Warranty. The Housebuilders will have very little input on what the Heating people put in.It will be a sub contractor who does the heating work, and they will have that Contract through being the cheapest Tender. All the Housebuilder will demand is a radiator in each room and a boiler to give the correct heating characteristics for the house. They will not check the designs. The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault. |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 17:43:54 +0000, thescullster wrote: Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for new builds in any way? Through Gassafe and the Boilers Manufacturers Warranty. The Housebuilders will have very little input on what the Heating people put in.It will be a sub contractor who does the heating work, and they will have that Contract through being the cheapest Tender. All the Housebuilder will demand is a radiator in each room and a boiler to give the correct heating characteristics for the house. They will not check the designs. The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault. The builder may well do so. But that doesn't mean they can get away with it. As usual, it all depends on the contract. Builders don't /have/ to provide any heating. But most new builds will have heating; and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a separate contract with the heating engineer. Heating systems are also covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say about heating systems if they are provided. E.g. https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-services/8-1-internal-services/8-1-10-space-heating-systems/ -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 24/01/2021 17:43, thescullster wrote:
Hi all Just a point of interest really.... Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for new builds in any way? Most contributors here I'm sure will know that, to run efficiently in condensing mode, the system temperature for condensing installations needs to be rather lower than older systems. This means larger radiators are needed to supply satisfactory heat input to a room with a given heat loss. It is in the installer's interest to fit smaller radiators at a lower overall cost. But this would lead to a higher less efficient system temperature being necessary to sufficiently heat the property. Does anyone know if checks are done for heating system efficiency, particularly on major builders' sites? If not, then the claimed boiler manufacturer efficiencies will be meaningless. Thanks Phil Don't Building Regs make you adhere to something like the SAP rating of the proposed construction ?. A farming friend built a new bungalow on his land and the BCO made him fit a particular type of fire-behind-glass which he had every intention of removing so he could have a blazing open fire instead. Not sure what the outcome was. |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 24 Jan 2021 at 17:43:54 GMT, "thescullster"
wrote: Hi all Just a point of interest really.... Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for new builds in any way? Related piece in the Guardian today: https://www.theguardian.com/environm...e-them-greener Householders buying brand new homes in the next four years are likely to find an unpleasant surprise awaiting them in the futu homes built today will have to be retrofitted with energy efficiency measures and low-carbon technology, at an average cost of more than £20,000. -- Cheers, Rob |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote:
On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote: The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault. The builder may well do so. But that doesn't mean they can get away with it. As usual, it all depends on the contract. Builders don't /have/ to provide any heating. But most new builds will have heating; and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a separate contract with the heating engineer. Heating systems are also covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say about heating systems if they are provided. E.g. https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10- space-heating-systems/ Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable. |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 08:30:16 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 02:16:30 -0600, Alan wrote: On Sun, 24 Jan 2021 17:43:54 +0000, thescullster wrote: Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for new builds in any way? Through Gassafe and the Boilers Manufacturers Warranty. The Housebuilders will have very little input on what the Heating people put in.It will be a sub contractor who does the heating work, and they will have that Contract through being the cheapest Tender. All the Housebuilder will demand is a radiator in each room and a boiler to give the correct heating characteristics for the house. They will not check the designs. I understand that the heating engineer does a calculation taking into account the room sizes, outside wall areas etc, to work out the number and sizes of the radiators needed and hence the boiler capacity. There are probably formulae on boiler or radiator mfrs web sites for doing it. From what the OP was asking, that formula ought to include the temperature that the boiler is set to, or do the formulae just assume a value, such as 65C or whatever? I very much doubt that there are any calculations done regarding boiler feed and return temperatures compared to the room sizes and a standard temperature for that room. They'll just see a 3 metre square room, think 'we'll need a 600btu radiator for that room' and that is as far as the calculations will go. |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 25/01/2021 16:59, Alan wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote: The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault. The builder may well do so. But that doesn't mean they can get away with it. As usual, it all depends on the contract. Builders don't /have/ to provide any heating. But most new builds will have heating; and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a separate contract with the heating engineer. Heating systems are also covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say about heating systems if they are provided. E.g. https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10- space-heating-systems/ Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable. I repeat, it all depends on the contract: if your contract is with the builder for a house with a heating system then then it's the builder who is liable if the heating system is faulty. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 25/01/2021 15:54, RJH wrote:
On 24 Jan 2021 at 17:43:54 GMT, "thescullster" wrote: Hi all Just a point of interest really.... Does anyone know whether heating system "design" is regulated for new builds in any way? Related piece in the Guardian today: https://www.theguardian.com/environm...e-them-greener Householders buying brand new homes in the next four years are likely to find an unpleasant surprise awaiting them in the futu homes built today will have to be retrofitted with energy efficiency measures and low-carbon technology, at an average cost of more than £20,000. More project fear from the Labour party. Building regs are never retrospective, apart from updating gas and electrical installations. And no-one knows where that mythical £20K figure comes from. The Grundian article avoided any elaboration too. Houses being built today are far more energy efficient than the millions+ built in the 1970's and 80's. Remember, it was NuLabs 'warm house' project that resulted in Grenfell Tower being clad the way it was. |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 25/01/2021 17:03, Alan wrote:
They'll just see a 3 metre square room, think 'we'll need a 600btu radiator for that room' and that is as far as the calculations will go. and mostly they wont be *wrong* -- Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 25/01/2021 17:12, Robin wrote:
On 25/01/2021 16:59, Alan wrote: On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote: The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault. The builder may well do so.* But that doesn't mean they can get away with it.* As usual, it all depends on the contract.* Builders don't /have/ to provide any heating.* But most new builds will have heating; and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a separate contract with the heating engineer.* Heating systems are also covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say about heating systems if they are provided.* E.g. https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10- space-heating-systems/ Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable. I repeat, it all depends on the contract: if your contract is with the builder for a house with a heating system then then it's the builder who is liable if the heating system is faulty. Or the architect? This post is about design flaws not failures. OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. It is massively over specced but seems to give little consideration to anything to do with assisting the boiler to modulate. It also probably has the worst UFH setup I have ever seen - I had a regular poster pop in and have a look at it so that he knows how not to do it when he fits his own UFH. It's going to end up with overheated rooms and cold rooms. All fitted to the architects specs and drawings. -- Adam |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
ARW wrote:
OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. It is massively over specced but seems to give little consideration to anything to do with assisting the boiler to modulate. It also probably has the worst UFH setup I have ever seen - I had a regular poster pop in and have a look at it so that he knows how not to do it when he fits his own UFH. It's going to end up with overheated rooms and cold rooms. All fitted to the architects specs and drawings. For UFH all the manufacturers will take a floor plan and return a pipework plan that splits it up into different zones with one or more loops per zone ... I doubt the architect does much more that cut and paste that. The design of that system would probably benefit from having more than one manifold location to have run the loops from. |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 25/01/2021 18:41, ARW wrote:
On 25/01/2021 17:12, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 16:59, Alan wrote: On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote: The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault. The builder may well do so.* But that doesn't mean they can get away with it.* As usual, it all depends on the contract.* Builders don't /have/ to provide any heating.* But most new builds will have heating; and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a separate contract with the heating engineer.* Heating systems are also covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say about heating systems if they are provided.* E.g. https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10- space-heating-systems/ Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable. I repeat, it all depends on the contract: if your contract is with the builder for a house with a heating system then then it's the builder who is liable if the heating system is faulty. Or the architect? This post is about design flaws not failures. OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. It is massively over specced but seems to give little consideration to anything to do with assisting the boiler to modulate. It also probably has the worst UFH setup I have ever seen - I had a regular poster pop in and have a look at it so that he knows how not to do it when he fits his own UFH. It's going to end up with overheated rooms and cold rooms. All fitted to the architects specs and drawings. Good point. If your contract with the builder is "work to these specs from the architect" then architect's tender bits are on the block for design faults. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
ARW wrote:
OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. Is the whole thing anywhere near done yet? |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
In message , Andy Burns
writes ARW wrote: OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. Is the whole thing anywhere near done yet? One difficulty we discovered with a refurb and planned underfloor heating throughout is adequate insulation over solid floor slab. The original arrangement with wall hung radiators had 25mm polystyrene under 22mm chipboard. The new system uses slotted polystyrene slabs with about... 25mm of insulation below the pipes! We could have put more under but only by losing ceiling/door height. -- Tim Lamb |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On Tuesday, 26 January 2021 at 07:31:39 UTC, Robin wrote:
On 25/01/2021 18:41, ARW wrote: On 25/01/2021 17:12, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 16:59, Alan wrote: On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote: The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault. The builder may well do so. But that doesn't mean they can get away with it. As usual, it all depends on the contract. Builders don't /have/ to provide any heating. But most new builds will have heating; and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a separate contract with the heating engineer. Heating systems are also covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say about heating systems if they are provided. E.g. https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10- space-heating-systems/ Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable. I repeat, it all depends on the contract: if your contract is with the builder for a house with a heating system then then it's the builder who is liable if the heating system is faulty. Or the architect? This post is about design flaws not failures. OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. It is massively over specced but seems to give little consideration to anything to do with assisting the boiler to modulate. It also probably has the worst UFH setup I have ever seen - I had a regular poster pop in and have a look at it so that he knows how not to do it when he fits his own UFH. It's going to end up with overheated rooms and cold rooms. All fitted to the architects specs and drawings. Good point. If your contract with the builder is "work to these specs from the architect" then architect's tender bits are on the block for design faults. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid But how many building contracts stipulate that the builder *must* follow the design information? I've never seen it. A client would be mad to agree to that. A designer works to a "reasonable skill and care" duty - so only liable if he or she drops below that. An architect copying and pasting a bespoke design from a UFH supplier would probably meet that duty of care, assuming the UFH designer was supplied with all necessary info. Building contracts put a higher duty of care on the builder - a fitness for purpose. Any client who reduces the builder's liability by insisting on "work to these specs" deserves what they get... |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
Tim Lamb wrote:
One difficulty* we discovered with a refurb and planned underfloor heating throughout is adequate insulation over solid floor slab. UFH for a refurb is obviously more difficult than a new build, from what I can remember it's mostly(?) the new bits of Adam's site have UFH and hopefully decent insulation under, the old bits have radiators, but it looked like a rat's nest in the corridors. |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 26/01/2021 09:10, Nikki Smith wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 January 2021 at 07:31:39 UTC, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 18:41, ARW wrote: On 25/01/2021 17:12, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 16:59, Alan wrote: On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote: The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault. The builder may well do so. But that doesn't mean they can get away with it. As usual, it all depends on the contract. Builders don't /have/ to provide any heating. But most new builds will have heating; and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a separate contract with the heating engineer. Heating systems are also covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say about heating systems if they are provided. E.g. https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10- space-heating-systems/ Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable. I repeat, it all depends on the contract: if your contract is with the builder for a house with a heating system then then it's the builder who is liable if the heating system is faulty. Or the architect? This post is about design flaws not failures. OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. It is massively over specced but seems to give little consideration to anything to do with assisting the boiler to modulate. It also probably has the worst UFH setup I have ever seen - I had a regular poster pop in and have a look at it so that he knows how not to do it when he fits his own UFH. It's going to end up with overheated rooms and cold rooms. All fitted to the architects specs and drawings. Good point. If your contract with the builder is "work to these specs from the architect" then architect's tender bits are on the block for design faults. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid But how many building contracts stipulate that the builder *must* follow the design information? I've never seen it. A client would be mad to agree to that. A designer works to a "reasonable skill and care" duty - so only liable if he or she drops below that. An architect copying and pasting a bespoke design from a UFH supplier would probably meet that duty of care, assuming the UFH designer was supplied with all necessary info. Building contracts put a higher duty of care on the builder - a fitness for purpose. Any client who reduces the builder's liability by insisting on "work to these specs" deserves what they get... Yes - although IIRC traditional JCT contracts used to put liability for design faults on the designer rather than the builder if they were at the same level. (And it comes back to me, I think also allowed for a design and build contract to explicitly put liability for design faults on the subcontractor - but I could /very/ easily be wrong.) -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On Tuesday, 26 January 2021 at 10:35:53 UTC, Robin wrote:
On 26/01/2021 09:10, Nikki Smith wrote: On Tuesday, 26 January 2021 at 07:31:39 UTC, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 18:41, ARW wrote: On 25/01/2021 17:12, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 16:59, Alan wrote: On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote: The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault. The builder may well do so. But that doesn't mean they can get away with it. As usual, it all depends on the contract. Builders don't /have/ to provide any heating. But most new builds will have heating; and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a separate contract with the heating engineer. Heating systems are also covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say about heating systems if they are provided. E.g. https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10- space-heating-systems/ Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable. I repeat, it all depends on the contract: if your contract is with the builder for a house with a heating system then then it's the builder who is liable if the heating system is faulty. Or the architect? This post is about design flaws not failures. OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. It is massively over specced but seems to give little consideration to anything to do with assisting the boiler to modulate. It also probably has the worst UFH setup I have ever seen - I had a regular poster pop in and have a look at it so that he knows how not to do it when he fits his own UFH. It's going to end up with overheated rooms and cold rooms. All fitted to the architects specs and drawings. Good point. If your contract with the builder is "work to these specs from the architect" then architect's tender bits are on the block for design faults. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid But how many building contracts stipulate that the builder *must* follow the design information? I've never seen it. A client would be mad to agree to that. A designer works to a "reasonable skill and care" duty - so only liable if he or she drops below that. An architect copying and pasting a bespoke design from a UFH supplier would probably meet that duty of care, assuming the UFH designer was supplied with all necessary info. Building contracts put a higher duty of care on the builder - a fitness for purpose. Any client who reduces the builder's liability by insisting on "work to these specs" deserves what they get... Yes - although IIRC traditional JCT contracts used to put liability for design faults on the designer rather than the builder if they were at the same level. (And it comes back to me, I think also allowed for a design and build contract to explicitly put liability for design faults on the subcontractor - but I could /very/ easily be wrong.) -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid With "Traditional" building contracts (e.g. with BoQs etc) there is definitely more cost risk with the client, but this comes with a better control over quality, supposedly. But the performance risk still sits with the contractor due to the difference in duty of care. The contractor can only offload a claim if it can prove a designer was negligent. In terms of D&B, liability can be a minefield. But even then, a contractor is still signed up to a fitness for purpose while designers have to only use reasonable skill and care. |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On Tuesday, 26 January 2021 at 10:35:53 UTC, Robin wrote:
On 26/01/2021 09:10, Nikki Smith wrote: On Tuesday, 26 January 2021 at 07:31:39 UTC, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 18:41, ARW wrote: On 25/01/2021 17:12, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 16:59, Alan wrote: On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:50:23 +0000, Robin wrote: On 25/01/2021 08:16, Alan wrote: The Builder will deny all responsibility for heating faults and design failures, and point you to the Heating Engineers if there is a fault. The builder may well do so. But that doesn't mean they can get away with it. As usual, it all depends on the contract. Builders don't /have/ to provide any heating. But most new builds will have heating; and I've not heard of buyers being told they need to enter into a separate contract with the heating engineer. Heating systems are also covered by the standard insurance polices and they do have things to say about heating systems if they are provided. E.g. https://nhbc-standards.co.uk/8-servi...rvices/8-1-10- space-heating-systems/ Yes, but the Builder will just say it is not our problem, we'll ring the plumbers and get them to look at it, then they'll ring the plumbers, and tell them to sort it. So there is a guarantee, but, the builders have sub'd the work out, hence the plumbers are liable. I repeat, it all depends on the contract: if your contract is with the builder for a house with a heating system then then it's the builder who is liable if the heating system is faulty. Or the architect? This post is about design flaws not failures. OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. It is massively over specced but seems to give little consideration to anything to do with assisting the boiler to modulate. It also probably has the worst UFH setup I have ever seen - I had a regular poster pop in and have a look at it so that he knows how not to do it when he fits his own UFH. It's going to end up with overheated rooms and cold rooms. All fitted to the architects specs and drawings. Good point. If your contract with the builder is "work to these specs from the architect" then architect's tender bits are on the block for design faults. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid But how many building contracts stipulate that the builder *must* follow the design information? I've never seen it. A client would be mad to agree to that. A designer works to a "reasonable skill and care" duty - so only liable if he or she drops below that. An architect copying and pasting a bespoke design from a UFH supplier would probably meet that duty of care, assuming the UFH designer was supplied with all necessary info. Building contracts put a higher duty of care on the builder - a fitness for purpose. Any client who reduces the builder's liability by insisting on "work to these specs" deserves what they get... Yes - although IIRC traditional JCT contracts used to put liability for design faults on the designer rather than the builder if they were at the same level. (And it comes back to me, I think also allowed for a design and build contract to explicitly put liability for design faults on the subcontractor - but I could /very/ easily be wrong.) -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid My SiL had a problem with his heating system shortly after they moved in to their new build, he notified the builder and because the site was still under construction the foreman/ clerk of works came round. During the conversation with him he mentioned that the boiler supplier, Ideal in this case, was responsible for the design and installation of the system. The contents of the airing cupboard which included the DHW tank and all the controls arrived as a preassembled kit simply put in the cupboard and connected to the first fix pipe work and if I remember correctly it was a man from Ideal who came to fix the issue likewise when a radiator valve leaked. Richard |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 26/01/2021 11:18, Nikki Smith wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 January 2021 at 10:35:53 UTC, Robin wrote: On 26/01/2021 09:10, Nikki Smith wrote: snip But how many building contracts stipulate that the builder *must* follow the design information? I've never seen it. A client would be mad to agree to that. A designer works to a "reasonable skill and care" duty - so only liable if he or she drops below that. An architect copying and pasting a bespoke design from a UFH supplier would probably meet that duty of care, assuming the UFH designer was supplied with all necessary info. Building contracts put a higher duty of care on the builder - a fitness for purpose. Any client who reduces the builder's liability by insisting on "work to these specs" deserves what they get... Yes - although IIRC traditional JCT contracts used to put liability for design faults on the designer rather than the builder if they were at the same level. (And it comes back to me, I think also allowed for a design and build contract to explicitly put liability for design faults on the subcontractor - but I could /very/ easily be wrong.) -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid With "Traditional" building contracts (e.g. with BoQs etc) there is definitely more cost risk with the client, but this comes with a better control over quality, supposedly. But the performance risk still sits with the contractor due to the difference in duty of care. The contractor can only offload a claim if it can prove a designer was negligent. In terms of D&B, liability can be a minefield. But even then, a contractor is still signed up to a fitness for purpose while designers have to only use reasonable skill and care. The good old default in English law: architects, engineers and other designers can shrug their shoulders if their design isn't buildable. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 26/01/2021 08:57, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andy Burns writes ARW wrote: OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. Is the whole thing anywhere near done yet? One difficulty* we discovered with a refurb and planned underfloor heating throughout is adequate insulation over solid floor slab. The original arrangement with wall hung radiators had 25mm polystyrene under 22mm chipboard. The new system uses slotted polystyrene slabs with about... 25mm of insulation below the pipes! We could have put more under but only by losing ceiling/door height. Don't worry. According to the ?polyplumb salesman at a self-build exhibition that I visited many years ago, he assured me that even though the overlay slotted insulation panels were only an inch thick, it would still be cheap to run because 'heat rises'. |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
In message , Andrew
writes On 26/01/2021 08:57, Tim Lamb wrote: In message , Andy Burns writes ARW wrote: OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. Is the whole thing anywhere near done yet? One difficulty* we discovered with a refurb and planned underfloor heating throughout is adequate insulation over solid floor slab. The original arrangement with wall hung radiators had 25mm polystyrene under 22mm chipboard. The new system uses slotted polystyrene slabs with about... 25mm of insulation below the pipes! We could have put more under but only by losing ceiling/door height. Don't worry. According to the ?polyplumb salesman at a self-build exhibition that I visited many years ago, he assured me that even though the overlay slotted insulation panels were only an inch thick, it would still be cheap to run because 'heat rises'. Ha! I suspect I am warming a lot of Hertfordshire. I think TNP suggested the main loss is to the sides rather than directly down. It has crossed my mind to consider external insulation down to the footings. Currently shingle filled French drain so not a huge job but without some idea of the benefit, not over likely to happen. -- Tim Lamb |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 26/01/2021 15:07, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andrew writes On 26/01/2021 08:57, Tim Lamb wrote: In message , Andy Burns writes ARW wrote: OK so this is a refurb and not a newbuild I am working on. Is the whole thing anywhere near done yet? *One difficulty* we discovered with a refurb and planned underfloor heating throughout is adequate insulation over solid floor slab. *The original arrangement with wall hung radiators had 25mm polystyrene* under 22mm chipboard. The new system uses slotted polystyrene slabs with* about... 25mm of insulation below the pipes! *We could have put more under but only by losing ceiling/door height. Don't worry. According to the ?polyplumb salesman at a self-build exhibition that I visited many years ago, he assured me that even though the overlay slotted insulation panels were only an inch thick, it would still be cheap to run because 'heat rises'. Ha! I suspect I am warming a lot of Hertfordshire. I think TNP suggested the main loss is to the sides rather than directly down. Building Regs Part L used to have tables of Uvalues or heatloss associated with the perimeter. If you only insulate a 1 metre band around the edge (inside) that is most of the downward heatloss fixed. It has crossed my mind to consider external insulation down to the footings. Currently shingle filled French drain so not a huge job but without some idea of the benefit, not over likely to happen. Sarah Beaney built a new mansion in Somerset (recent TV series) and the inner edge of the foundation trenches were lined with what looked like the blue extruded polystyrene that is ?normally used under the slabs of coldrooms, and then the concrete poured. |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
Andrew wrote:
the inner edge of the foundation trenches were lined with what looked like the blue extruded polystyrene Sure that wasn't to prevent clay heave on the foundations? |
Heating System Design for New House Builds
On 26/01/2021 09:24, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote: One difficulty* we discovered with a refurb and planned underfloor heating throughout is adequate insulation over solid floor slab. UFH for a refurb is obviously more difficult than a new build, from what I can remember it's mostly(?) the new bits of Adam's site have UFH and hopefully decent insulation under, the old bits have radiators, but it looked like a rat's nest in the corridors. Yes the new build bit had good insulation under the concrete. And the screed over the pipes lifted because the plumbers took the heads off the UFH manifold instead of using the rooms stats and gently building up the temperature. They said the blending valve was at minimum and there was too little screed. Personally I would have started the UFH running before the laminate was laid to allow the moisture to escape. And out of all that pipework (you never saw the copper pipework in the loft) there was just one leak. -- Adam |
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