Any recommendations please on panels/drivers that can be dimmed by
"ordinary" (e.g. Varilight V-Pro) dimmers?

Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens. I want to
be able to run them dimmed while/when the full Monty is not needed. But
I'm struggling to see just which panels and drivers can be used with
power (phase control) dimmers.

FTAOD:

a. I'm not in the market for dimming by control signal (0-10V etc) as I
ain't ready to rewire. Nor for Smart Phone, Alexa etc.

b. I've already boosted under- and over- cabinet lighting and more of
the same ain't going to avoid the need for more from the ceiling.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 27/11/2020 09:34, Robin wrote:
But I'm struggling to see just which panels and drivers can be used with
power (phase control) dimmers.

Difficult. Even best LED drivers dint respond to dimming in the same was
as hot wire bulbs do.

The best bet is to get a trailing edge dimmer setup and buy panels on
appro that claim to be dimmable and send them back if they dint meet
requirements.


--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

In article ,
Robin wrote:
Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens.

Are you saying you can find LED brighter than fluorescent panels?

--
*Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 09:34:13 +0000, Robin wrote:

snip

Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens. I want to
be able to run them dimmed while/when the full Monty is not needed.

snip

Probably not 'stylish' enough for some (we have two twin flouros in
our kitchen because 'they give light' and they are off when we aren't
in there g) but when I wired up my mates office, I ran them off two
switches so they could have 50% (either set) or 100% of the lights on.

With half the lights on there was plenty of light to do most things in
the office but if they needed to turn it into a stadium, they could
turn the lot on (they had a fair quantity of the 2 x 32W CFL ceiling
fittings).

Cheers, T i m

On 27/11/2020 10:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens.

Are you saying you can find LED brighter than fluorescent panels?


Patently not.

Are you saying you can point me to fluorescent panels and dimmers
currently on sale with comparable price, output, life expectancy and
profile which don't require control wires? Comparable ease of cleaning
wd help too in a kitchen.

PS

You have made clear frequently your views on the advantages of
fluorescent for colour rendition but some of us may give priority to
other features.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:
a. I'm not in the market for dimming by control signal (0-10V etc) as I
ain't ready to rewire. Nor for Smart Phone, Alexa etc.

Not what you asked for, but have you looked at some of the Ikea panels:
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/cat/wirel...s-doors-36816/

They're controlled by a battery-powered dimmer rocker-button. It comes with a
magnetic wall mount so you can fix it like a switch. You can pair multiple
panels to a single button.

The protocol is Zigbee so you can hook it up to a hub, Alexa, etc if you
want, but if you prefer you can just use the button.

I think the LED dimmer/driver is a separate module that's mounted inside the
light, so it looks like mains power in is all you need.

Theo

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 27/11/2020 10:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens.

Are you saying you can find LED brighter than fluorescent panels?


Patently not.

Are you saying you can point me to fluorescent panels and dimmers
currently on sale with comparable price, output, life expectancy and
profile which don't require control wires? Comparable ease of cleaning
wd help too in a kitchen.

Was more wondering why you want panels. Which suggest to replace existing
florry ones in a false ceiling? Otherwise a bit 'office' looking for a
kitchen?

PS

You have made clear frequently your views on the advantages of
fluorescent for colour rendition but some of us may give priority to
other features.

--
*The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/11/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 09:34:13 +0000, Robin wrote:

snip

Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens. I want to
be able to run them dimmed while/when the full Monty is not needed.

snip

Probably not 'stylish' enough for some (we have two twin flouros in
our kitchen because 'they give light' and they are off when we aren't
in there g) but when I wired up my mates office, I ran them off two
switches so they could have 50% (either set) or 100% of the lights on.

With half the lights on there was plenty of light to do most things in
the office but if they needed to turn it into a stadium, they could
turn the lot on (they had a fair quantity of the 2 x 32W CFL ceiling
fittings).


Apart from anything else, splitting circuits is not practicable when -
to quote - "I ain't ready to rewire".

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 13:46:01 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 27/11/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 09:34:13 +0000, Robin wrote:

snip

Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens. I want to
be able to run them dimmed while/when the full Monty is not needed.

snip

Probably not 'stylish' enough for some (we have two twin flouros in
our kitchen because 'they give light' and they are off when we aren't
in there g) but when I wired up my mates office, I ran them off two
switches so they could have 50% (either set) or 100% of the lights on.

With half the lights on there was plenty of light to do most things in
the office but if they needed to turn it into a stadium, they could
turn the lot on (they had a fair quantity of the 2 x 32W CFL ceiling
fittings).


Apart from anything else, splitting circuits is not practicable when -
to quote - "I ain't ready to rewire".

No, quite, I didn't really consider my reply as a specific answer to
your question, but if you can't fulfil your specific demands in any
way, doing some re-wiring might then become an RW option, when you
*are* ready. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 27/11/2020 12:18, Theo wrote:
Robin wrote:
a. I'm not in the market for dimming by control signal (0-10V etc) as I
ain't ready to rewire. Nor for Smart Phone, Alexa etc.

Not what you asked for, but have you looked at some of the Ikea panels:
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/cat/wirel...s-doors-36816/

They're controlled by a battery-powered dimmer rocker-button. It comes with a
magnetic wall mount so you can fix it like a switch. You can pair multiple
panels to a single button.

The protocol is Zigbee so you can hook it up to a hub, Alexa, etc if you
want, but if you prefer you can just use the button.

I think the LED dimmer/driver is a separate module that's mounted inside the
light, so it looks like mains power in is all you need.


Thanks for that - an option I'd not considered. A bit pricey (£115 for
the 600 mm panel alone with 2800 lumen from 34 W) given I don't want the
ability to switch colour temperature. And not entirely simple for me as
one kitchen ceiling circuit shares a switch plate a hall light. But
I'll look at it further.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 27/11/2020 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 27/11/2020 10:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens.

Are you saying you can find LED brighter than fluorescent panels?


Patently not.

Are you saying you can point me to fluorescent panels and dimmers
currently on sale with comparable price, output, life expectancy and
profile which don't require control wires? Comparable ease of cleaning
wd help too in a kitchen.

Was more wondering why you want panels. Which suggest to replace existing
florry ones in a false ceiling?

Your assumption was mistaken.


Otherwise a bit 'office' looking for a
kitchen?


So what do you suggest for general work light that does not require
rewiring?


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:
Thanks for that - an option I'd not considered. A bit pricey (£115 for
the 600 mm panel alone with 2800 lumen from 34 W) given I don't want the
ability to switch colour temperature. And not entirely simple for me as
one kitchen ceiling circuit shares a switch plate a hall light. But
I'll look at it further.

What you could do is replace the switch plate with a single gang, and wago
the terminals for the kitchen light together. That means the light is
permanently powered. Then you can operate it via the wireless dimmer
control.

Some people have been busy with their 3D printers to create adapter plates
to hold the control on an existing switch plate
(it's quite a bit smaller than a regular switch):
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ikea-Trad...r/123954124426
or this one which holds the control that does colour temperature, which is a bit
bulkier:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Samotech-...h/292460515312
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ikea-Trad...r/123302725149

Theo

On 27/11/2020 13:54, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 13:46:01 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 27/11/2020 11:58, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 09:34:13 +0000, Robin wrote:

snip

Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens. I want to
be able to run them dimmed while/when the full Monty is not needed.

snip

Probably not 'stylish' enough for some (we have two twin flouros in
our kitchen because 'they give light' and they are off when we aren't
in there g) but when I wired up my mates office, I ran them off two
switches so they could have 50% (either set) or 100% of the lights on.

With half the lights on there was plenty of light to do most things in
the office but if they needed to turn it into a stadium, they could
turn the lot on (they had a fair quantity of the 2 x 32W CFL ceiling
fittings).


Apart from anything else, splitting circuits is not practicable when -
to quote - "I ain't ready to rewire".

No, quite, I didn't really consider my reply as a specific answer to
your question, but if you can't fulfil your specific demands in any
way, doing some re-wiring might then become an RW option, when you
*are* ready. ;-)


I am fairly confident what I want can be done; it just needs someone who
knows which dimmers, drivers and panels play together happily.

If not and I have to rewire then I would enable proper dimming.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 14:28:50 +0000, Robin wrote:

snip

Apart from anything else, splitting circuits is not practicable when -
to quote - "I ain't ready to rewire".

No, quite, I didn't really consider my reply as a specific answer to
your question, but if you can't fulfil your specific demands in any
way, doing some re-wiring might then become an RW option, when you
*are* ready. ;-)


I am fairly confident what I want can be done; it just needs someone who
knows which dimmers, drivers and panels play together happily.

Understood.

If not and I have to rewire then I would enable proper dimming.

OOI, how often do you actually use any dimmers at anything other than
full on or off?

We had a combined thumbwheel dimmer and rocker on/off switch for years
but the dimming function was left on full and only the rocker switch
part was used to control the light. When the second one failed in time
we replaced it with a std rocker again.

I think the multi-light dimmers with a series of 'old radio project'
knobs sticking out look tacky and again, nearly everywhere I've come
across them the 'default' use is on/off.

The only place we have a dimable is the bedside light where it's
typically set at the dimmest level so we (well, she mainly as 1) I
don't need it and 2) it's her side g) can find our way round the
room but can be turned up if we need a bit more light without turning
the main light on.

What would you say is the main purpose of the dim lighting would be,
when 'the full Monty is not needed'?

Is it when you are passing though that area in general and how do you
use them with the under / over cupboard lights ooi?

As mentioned we (still?) have 4 x 5' x 75W flourous in the kitchen and
unlike most other rooms where I would typically use localised lighting
to do anything requiring to see 'detail', the kitchen is the one place
that's not generally required.

Cheers, T i m

On 27 Nov 2020 14:28:30 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

snip

Some people have been busy with their 3D printers to create adapter plates
to hold the control on an existing switch plate
(it's quite a bit smaller than a regular switch):
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ikea-Trad...r/123954124426

Would that cause any fire safety issues, given PLA us likely to be
very much more flammable than any plastic generally associated with
electrical work?

or this one which holds the control that does colour temperature, which is a bit
bulkier:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Samotech-...h/292460515312

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ikea-Trad...r/123302725149

That reminds me that whilst paying a rare visit to Ikea a couple of
years ago I bought a couple of their remotely controlled lamps that
came with little 'puck' style controllers that never seemed to work
very well, even from new. I got them when my stepdaughter was ill so
they had the option to dim the main room light if she was tired but
didn't want to be in the dark (before going to the hospice). ;-(

I think the lamps themselves are still in use but only in on/off mode
from conventional light switches (one in a bedroom main light and
another a lounge uplighter).

I think they did sell a more substantial controllers for these lamps
and is that what is featured in the links above (as it might be good
for daughter to be able to use them as designed).

Cheers, T i m

On 27/11/2020 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
.... snipped

Was more wondering why you want panels. Which suggest to replace existing
florry ones in a false ceiling? Otherwise a bit 'office' looking for a
kitchen?

.... snipped
I was concerned about the "office" look before fitting them but they
look great in a "traditional" kitchen - that I still haven't finished :-(

T i m wrote:
On 27 Nov 2020 14:28:30 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

snip

Some people have been busy with their 3D printers to create adapter plates
to hold the control on an existing switch plate
(it's quite a bit smaller than a regular switch):
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ikea-Trad...r/123954124426

Would that cause any fire safety issues, given PLA us likely to be
very much more flammable than any plastic generally associated with
electrical work?

Can't see how, given it's attached to the outside of an existing switch.
You can still flip the switch through the slot. The controller is just
powered by a CR2032 so no safety implications there.

That reminds me that whilst paying a rare visit to Ikea a couple of
years ago I bought a couple of their remotely controlled lamps that
came with little 'puck' style controllers that never seemed to work
very well, even from new. I got them when my stepdaughter was ill so
they had the option to dim the main room light if she was tired but
didn't want to be in the dark (before going to the hospice). ;-(

I think the lamps themselves are still in use but only in on/off mode
from conventional light switches (one in a bedroom main light and
another a lounge uplighter).

I've replaced some grotty incandescent downlighters with these:
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/leptite...trum-50353513/
That's a reasonable price for a 100mm downlight including bulb, and
integrate the Zigbee dimmer inside.

They're dimmable and colour-temperature-adjustable via the 'puck' controller
(which was straightforward to pair). It's really nice to be able to tweak
the brightness and colour temperature (only 2200K/2700K/4000K though) and I
find myself doing so more frequently that I thought I would.

Since they're Zigbee I can always set up 'zones' so they don't all come on
at once. But no major hurry for that.

Theo

On 27/11/2020 16:27, Theo wrote:
snip
Since they're Zigbee I can always set up 'zones' so they don't all come on
at once. But no major hurry for that.

Does IKEA's "Can only be used with IKEA Smart lighting products" mean
they cannot be used with other Zigbee kit/apps?


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 27/11/2020 12:18, Theo wrote:
Robin wrote:
a. I'm not in the market for dimming by control signal (0-10V etc) as I
ain't ready to rewire. Nor for Smart Phone, Alexa etc.

Not what you asked for, but have you looked at some of the Ikea panels:
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/cat/wirel...s-doors-36816/

They're controlled by a battery-powered dimmer rocker-button. It comes with a
magnetic wall mount so you can fix it like a switch. You can pair multiple
panels to a single button.

The protocol is Zigbee so you can hook it up to a hub, Alexa, etc if you
want, but if you prefer you can just use the button.

I think the LED dimmer/driver is a separate module that's mounted inside the
light, so it looks like mains power in is all you need.

Theo


Reviews on Ikea are not encouraging though :-(

On 27 Nov 2020 16:27:51 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

snip

Would that cause any fire safety issues, given PLA us likely to be
very much more flammable than any plastic generally associated with
electrical work?

Can't see how, given it's attached to the outside of an existing switch.

No, I didn't mean it would be particularly ... just that I'm not sure
I'd want to be selling anything used in that sort of scenario printed
with PLA.

I actually stopped using home printed RPi boxes and am using
'commercial' plastic cases (Or metal, if WiFi isn't used) that stated
they were made from a fireproof plastic instead.

You can still flip the switch through the slot. The controller is just
powered by a CR2032 so no safety implications there.

Sure, and the existing plastic should retain any flames etc. ;-)

snip

I've replaced some grotty incandescent downlighters with these:
https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/leptite...trum-50353513/

I guess if your ceilings are already peppered with the holes ... ;-)

Is it just me but where does it state the light output?

"Use this smart LED recessed spotlight to create atmosphere in any
room, including the bathroom. You can control the light via TRÅDFRI
remote or a smartphone ? and set the scene for cooking or a long
bath."

(I bought a s/h smartphone from eBay and two days later and before I'd
even used it anywhere it died. It was still under warranty so I
returned it to the PO who returned it to the manufacturer for repair /
replacement. It came back that it had got damp (photos of the inside
showing the water damage) and so wasn't covered. Their instructions
suggested that the phone shouldn't be used where it could get dame or
even exposed to condensation, such as found in a kitchen or bathroom!)

That's a reasonable price for a 100mm downlight including bulb, and
integrate the Zigbee dimmer inside.

Yeah, that doesn't look bad.

They're dimmable and colour-temperature-adjustable via the 'puck' controller
(which was straightforward to pair).

Yeah, as were the one that came with the lamps I bought, but they
didn't seem to last and weren't very predictable when new. I think I
should have bought one of the 'alternative' pucks but they were about
the same price as the lamps? ;-(

It's really nice to be able to tweak
the brightness and colour temperature (only 2200K/2700K/4000K though) and I
find myself doing so more frequently that I thought I would.

Where do you have them where the dimming / CT functions are worthwhile
Theo?

Since they're Zigbee I can always set up 'zones' so they don't all come on
at once. But no major hurry for that.

I've not 'committed to any one of the (several?) standards for all
this home automation stuff yet but do have a couple of the Google Home
devices (gifts) and Alexa in the Portal (un yet configured) and
Smartphones.

I did get an Amazon SmartPlug on offer but I think I should have got
something that works with the Google Home?

Cheers, T i m

Robin wrote:
On 27/11/2020 16:27, Theo wrote:
snip
Since they're Zigbee I can always set up 'zones' so they don't all come on
at once. But no major hurry for that.

Does IKEA's "Can only be used with IKEA Smart lighting products" mean
they cannot be used with other Zigbee kit/apps?

That's just what they officially support. According to:
https://zigbee.blakadder.com/lights.html

they variously work with:
Zigbee Home Automation (Home assistant)
Tasmota
zigbee2mqtt
deCONZ
ZiGate
ioBroker.zigbee

and most of those are middleware layers that can be plugged into other
things. Seems like Smart Things and Hue will talk to them, for example.

Theo

On 27/11/2020 09:34, Robin wrote:
Any recommendations please on panels/drivers that can be dimmed by
"ordinary" (e.g. Varilight V-Pro) dimmers?

Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens.Â* I want to
be able to run them dimmed while/when the full Monty is not needed.Â* But
I'm struggling to see just which panels and drivers can be used with
power (phase control) dimmers.

FTAOD:

a.Â*Â*Â* I'm not in the market for dimming by control signal (0-10V etc) as
I ain't ready to rewire. Nor for Smart Phone, Alexa etc.

b.Â*Â*Â* I've already boosted under- and over- cabinet lighting and more of
the same ain't going to avoid the need for more from the ceiling.


Fitted some in a dance studio a few months ago.

Dimmed to zero with a varilight and all in perfect harmony.

I'll have to get work to find out what make they were.

--
Adam

T i m wrote:
I guess if your ceilings are already peppered with the holes ... ;-)

Is it just me but where does it state the light output?

Product details - Read more
says 600lm. 2400lm altogether is quite bright!

They're dimmable and colour-temperature-adjustable via the 'puck' controller
(which was straightforward to pair).

Yeah, as were the one that came with the lamps I bought, but they
didn't seem to last and weren't very predictable when new. I think I
should have bought one of the 'alternative' pucks but they were about
the same price as the lamps? ;-(

We'll see how longevity goes. I note Ikea have a habit of discontinuing
things, which is a bit concerning.

Since it's Zigbee it may be possible to pair a third party controller, I
haven't tried.

It's really nice to be able to tweak
the brightness and colour temperature (only 2200K/2700K/4000K though) and I
find myself doing so more frequently that I thought I would.

Where do you have them where the dimming / CT functions are worthwhile
Theo?

Office / spare bedroom. In office mode you might want bright / cool white
(eg for photography), in bedroom mode you might want dim / warm, maybe a dim
light over the bed and not over the desk, etc. At one point I'd like to try
dimming based on daylight levels too.

Since they're Zigbee I can always set up 'zones' so they don't all come on
at once. But no major hurry for that.

I've not 'committed to any one of the (several?) standards for all
this home automation stuff yet but do have a couple of the Google Home
devices (gifts) and Alexa in the Portal (un yet configured) and
Smartphones.

I did get an Amazon SmartPlug on offer but I think I should have got
something that works with the Google Home?

Anything that talks to an external server is a nono for me. Zigbee is nice
in that respect.

(with an exception for the catflap because there wasn't much alternative and
nobody has cracked its proprietary zigbee-knockoff yet).

Theo

On 27/11/2020 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Was more wondering why you want panels. Which suggest to replace existing
florry ones in a false ceiling? Otherwise a bit 'office' looking for a
kitchen?

It's what I'm going to do. I experimented with a panel and the light is
so much better.

Bill

On 27/11/2020 17:29, ARW wrote:
Fitted some in a dance studio a few months ago.

Dimmed to zero with a varilight and all in perfect harmony.

I'll have to get work to find out what make they were.

Adam, the type you put me onto was Varilight V-Pro programmable. Worked
perfectly with a LED panel.

Bill

On 27/11/2020 17:19, Theo wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 27/11/2020 16:27, Theo wrote:
snip
Since they're Zigbee I can always set up 'zones' so they don't all come on
at once. But no major hurry for that.

Does IKEA's "Can only be used with IKEA Smart lighting products" mean
they cannot be used with other Zigbee kit/apps?

That's just what they officially support. According to:
https://zigbee.blakadder.com/lights.html

they variously work with:
Zigbee Home Automation (Home assistant)
Tasmota
zigbee2mqtt
deCONZ
ZiGate
ioBroker.zigbee

and most of those are middleware layers that can be plugged into other
things. Seems like Smart Things and Hue will talk to them, for example.

Theo


thanks

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 27 Nov 2020 17:31:27 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

T i m wrote:
I guess if your ceilings are already peppered with the holes ... ;-)

Is it just me but where does it state the light output?

Product details - Read more
says 600lm.

Ah thanks, this old FF / XP was having issues resolving the pages
properly.

2400lm altogether is quite bright!

Yeah, it's nice to have.

They're dimmable and colour-temperature-adjustable via the 'puck' controller
(which was straightforward to pair).

Yeah, as were the one that came with the lamps I bought, but they
didn't seem to last and weren't very predictable when new. I think I
should have bought one of the 'alternative' pucks but they were about
the same price as the lamps? ;-(

We'll see how longevity goes.

(For clarity, I was talking specifically of the 'supplied' puck remote
here)

I note Ikea have a habit of discontinuing
things, which is a bit concerning.

Agreed, especially when it's 'quickly'.

Since it's Zigbee it may be possible to pair a third party controller, I
haven't tried.

Ok.

snip

Where do you have them where the dimming / CT functions are worthwhile
Theo?

Office / spare bedroom. In office mode you might want bright / cool white
(eg for photography), in bedroom mode you might want dim / warm, maybe a dim
light over the bed and not over the desk, etc.

The zoning thing makes sense, as do the levels, if you can group
multiple lamps to avoid shadows etc.

At one point I'd like to try
dimming based on daylight levels too.

And with light, occupancy and RFID sensors on the camera, it could set
it all up for you itself. ;-)

snip

I did get an Amazon SmartPlug on offer but I think I should have got
something that works with the Google Home?

Anything that talks to an external server is a nono for me.

I didn't like the idea.

Zigbee is nice
in that respect.

I'll have to look into that closer then.

(with an exception for the catflap because there wasn't much alternative and
nobody has cracked its proprietary zigbee-knockoff yet).

;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 27/11/2020 18:11, williamwright wrote:
On 27/11/2020 17:29, ARW wrote:
Fitted some in a dance studio a few months ago.

Dimmed to zero with a varilight and all in perfect harmony.

I'll have to get work to find out what make they were.

Adam, the type you put me onto was Varilight V-Pro programmable. Worked
perfectly with a LED panel.


I was expecting to have to splash out[1] for a V-Pro but do you know the
make/model of the driver/panel please?


[1] I trust imitation of Yorkshire folk is surely the sincerest form of
flattery




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Some apparently seem brighter, but I would suggest that the light depends on
the frequencies it contains and both the old tubes and leds use some very
broad ideas of what white light is, with holes in the spectrum all over the
place.
I remember when I was losing my sight, some lights that were supposed to be
very bright white seemed to be grainy and a bit blue and hard to take,
while others that looked to normal people a bit on the red side of yellow,
worked well. The eye is easily fooled until things start to go wrong, which
is why limumins are not a good guide. If we knew the eye condition, then we
might be of more help.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Robin wrote:
Background is I'm looking to fit LED panels on the kitchen ceiling for
the general work lights as ageing eyes need ever more lumens.

Are you saying you can find LED brighter than fluorescent panels?

--
*Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/11/2020 18:48, Robin wrote:

Adam, the type you put me onto was Varilight V-Pro programmable.
Worked perfectly with a LED panel.


I was expecting to have to splash out[1] for a V-Pro but do you know the
make/model of the driver/panel please?


[1] I trust imitation of Yorkshire folk is surely the sincerest form of
flattery


Sorry, no. I don't seem to have a record of it.

Bill

No specific eye condition as yet, just the usual effects of ageing such
as smaller pupils and clouded lenses.


snip

If we knew the eye condition, then we
might be of more help.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 27 Nov 2020 17:31:27 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

snip

Anything that talks to an external server is a nono for me. Zigbee is nice
in that respect.

I was looking at some Zigbee stuff and found this guy on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fqg2D02UKY

He seems to suggest the Zigbee is a con, or at least ~ twice the price
of 'Wi-Fi' alternatives but I'm not sure if he's getting the point or
including the benefits of each fairly?

Like, if Zigbee is the only one that allows you to run your own server
(if it can etc) then for some that could be enough to make any cost or
even performance differences irrelevant?

I would like the idea of the remote control, monitoring of sensors and
creating a rule based on an input etc (when light level below x, turn
light on etc) and storing it locally?

Is he right in that you can do the same range of things equally using
Zigbee or Wifi or is he not comparing them equally?

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
I was looking at some Zigbee stuff and found this guy on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fqg2D02UKY

He seems to suggest the Zigbee is a con, or at least ~ twice the price
of 'Wi-Fi' alternatives but I'm not sure if he's getting the point or
including the benefits of each fairly?

He doesn't know what he's talking about, and he's resistant when people try
to explain things to him.

Zigbee is a *low power*, low bandwidth protocol. For instance I have a
fleet of $7 temperature/pressure/humidity sensors that run off CR2032s
(lifetime 1 year).

Wifi is a high bandwidth, *high power* protocol. If you have a battery
powered gadget, expect to replace the battery every few days/weeks (or
provide a car battery).

Wifi is fine for things which are mains powered, but rubbish for anything
which is battery powered. When you need to get megabits/s of data off
something, like a camera, wifi is the protocol to use. When you need bits/s
of data, use Zigbee.

(There are some wifi devices that claim years battery life, but that's
because they just turn themselves off until they detect something. They
aren't there on the network checking in readings every minute. That's fine
for eg a door sensor, but not for a temperature sensor)

Zigbee's mesh is designed so your low power sensor nodes can get
connectivity via nearby mains powered devices that act as repeaters. This
means they don't have to shout loudly (eating their battery) to be heard
over the cacophony of wifi devices.

I would like the idea of the remote control, monitoring of sensors and
creating a rule based on an input etc (when light level below x, turn
light on etc) and storing it locally?

Is he right in that you can do the same range of things equally using
Zigbee or Wifi or is he not comparing them equally?

You can do both of those things, but for wifi you'll need a mains
connection.

The other thing is that Zigbee has a standard-ish application layer
protocol, so you can get data off things without needing a specific driver
(when the manufacturer actually implements the spec correctly anyway).

Wifi is just a network - your widget might speak a standard application
protocol (eg MQTT) but it probably speaks something proprietary.

Of course none of this bothers you when, like him, you just use the vendor's
half-working app that talks to their server in China, that will break in a
year or two when they get bored.

(There are also gadgets that speak Bluetooth, which have the proprietaryness
problem but better battery life)

Finally, the place to get a lot of this stuff is Aliexpress or ebay - smart
home tech is much bigger in China than it is here. Often we get high-cost
products from heavily-marketed brands (Hive, Nest, Alexa) when the Chinese
market is much more focused on lower cost products that work just as well
(eg Xiaomi's Aqara brand).

Theo

On 28/11/2020 14:49:23, T i m wrote:
On 27 Nov 2020 17:31:27 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

snip

Anything that talks to an external server is a nono for me. Zigbee is nice
in that respect.

I was looking at some Zigbee stuff and found this guy on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fqg2D02UKY

He seems to suggest the Zigbee is a con, or at least ~ twice the price
of 'Wi-Fi' alternatives but I'm not sure if he's getting the point or
including the benefits of each fairly?

Like, if Zigbee is the only one that allows you to run your own server
(if it can etc) then for some that could be enough to make any cost or
even performance differences irrelevant?

I would like the idea of the remote control, monitoring of sensors and
creating a rule based on an input etc (when light level below x, turn
light on etc) and storing it locally?

Is he right in that you can do the same range of things equally using
Zigbee or Wifi or is he not comparing them equally?

After working with a group in this field the principle advantage of
Zigbee is that low power is built into the protocol. So where mains or
low cost power is available there is no advantage.

By example, a smart gas meter would likely use Zigbee to chat to the
associated electric meter to relay consumption figures.

On 28 Nov 2020 at 14:49:23 GMT, "T i m" wrote:

On 27 Nov 2020 17:31:27 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

snip

Anything that talks to an external server is a nono for me. Zigbee is nice
in that respect.

I was looking at some Zigbee stuff and found this guy on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fqg2D02UKY

He seems to suggest the Zigbee is a con, or at least ~ twice the price
of 'Wi-Fi' alternatives but I'm not sure if he's getting the point or
including the benefits of each fairly?

Like, if Zigbee is the only one that allows you to run your own server
(if it can etc) then for some that could be enough to make any cost or
even performance differences irrelevant?

I would like the idea of the remote control, monitoring of sensors and
creating a rule based on an input etc (when light level below x, turn
light on etc) and storing it locally?

Is he right in that you can do the same range of things equally using
Zigbee or Wifi or is he not comparing them equally?

Cheers, T i m

You can run your own WiFi server, it's just that there is a great deal more
protocol overhead, by the time you have access point, some kind of IP server
and a programme that understands an IP protocol and translates it both ways to
communicate with the devices.
--
Roger Hayter

On 28 Nov 2020 15:28:32 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

T i m wrote:
I was looking at some Zigbee stuff and found this guy on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fqg2D02UKY

He seems to suggest the Zigbee is a con, or at least ~ twice the price
of 'Wi-Fi' alternatives but I'm not sure if he's getting the point or
including the benefits of each fairly?

He doesn't know what he's talking about, and he's resistant when people try
to explain things to him.

I thought as much but I thought I'd check.

Zigbee is a *low power*, low bandwidth protocol. For instance I have a
fleet of $7 temperature/pressure/humidity sensors that run off CR2032s
(lifetime 1 year).

Yeah, I did watch more of a dry overview of the design features but
different people can have different POV on it all.

Wifi is a high bandwidth, *high power* protocol. If you have a battery
powered gadget, expect to replace the battery every few days/weeks (or
provide a car battery).

Check.

Wifi is fine for things which are mains powered, but rubbish for anything
which is battery powered. When you need to get megabits/s of data off
something, like a camera, wifi is the protocol to use. When you need bits/s
of data, use Zigbee.

Yup, that's what I understood (and mentioned).

(There are some wifi devices that claim years battery life, but that's
because they just turn themselves off until they detect something. They
aren't there on the network checking in readings every minute. That's fine
for eg a door sensor, but not for a temperature sensor)

Noted. And they are the sorts of things I might be interested in, data
acquisition (12V battery voltages) etc.

Zigbee's mesh is designed so your low power sensor nodes can get
connectivity via nearby mains powered devices that act as repeaters. This
means they don't have to shout loudly (eating their battery) to be heard
over the cacophony of wifi devices.

Gotcha.

I would like the idea of the remote control, monitoring of sensors and
creating a rule based on an input etc (when light level below x, turn
light on etc) and storing it locally?

Is he right in that you can do the same range of things equally using
Zigbee or Wifi or is he not comparing them equally?

You can do both of those things, but for wifi you'll need a mains
connection.

K

The other thing is that Zigbee has a standard-ish application layer
protocol, so you can get data off things without needing a specific driver
(when the manufacturer actually implements the spec correctly anyway).

;-)

Wifi is just a network - your widget might speak a standard application
protocol (eg MQTT) but it probably speaks something proprietary.

Yeah, I do like the idea of 'open' for that reaction.

Of course none of this bothers you when, like him, you just use the vendor's
half-working app that talks to their server in China, that will break in a
year or two when they get bored.

;-)

(There are also gadgets that speak Bluetooth, which have the proprietaryness
problem but better battery life)

Yeah, the overview I watched (but now can't find) did actually cover
all that sort of thing but didn't really convey how it all worked
(over a range of it) ITRW.

Like, do you have (or can you have) some sort of server or is it
called / in the hub? How would you tell a mains lamp to turn on on a
schedule and / or from a mechanical switch etc? (I 'get' the switches
and sockets etc).

Finally, the place to get a lot of this stuff is Aliexpress or ebay - smart
home tech is much bigger in China than it is here.

Noted.

Often we get high-cost
products from heavily-marketed brands (Hive, Nest, Alexa) when the Chinese
market is much more focused on lower cost products that work just as well
(eg Xiaomi's Aqara brand).

Something to look out for thanks.

So, I'm guessing I'd be looking for it to say 'Zigbee compatible' or
some such? Can devices be compliant to more than one base system?

Could you point me to a selection of the things I would need to say
setup an 'occupancy light' that would come on at dusk and go off at
midnight please and that I could also override remotely (within the
house at least) from my phone?

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
Like, do you have (or can you have) some sort of server or is it
called / in the hub? How would you tell a mains lamp to turn on on a
schedule and / or from a mechanical switch etc? (I 'get' the switches
and sockets etc).

Zigbee stuff needs a 'coordinator' bridge from Zigbee to 'something else',
because your phone/laptop/etc don't have Zigbee. That's typically the hub
which has a network connection, but there are USB dongles (I'm using a
CC2531 in a RPi).

The software on the hub gets messages like 'button pressed', 'temperature
15C' and can send messages like 'turn on light'. Then it's up to it what to
do with it - call out to Alexa or some cloud server, or have the logic
locally, it entirely depends on how it's programmed.

(Because your phone does Bluetooth an advantage the BT gadgets have is they
can be controlled directly from a phone app, but often in a limited way - eg
need to be in the same room for the connection to work. BT doesn't really
scale very well)

So, I'm guessing I'd be looking for it to say 'Zigbee compatible' or
some such? Can devices be compliant to more than one base system?

Start here. It lists a lot of devices and shows which middleware gateways
they're compatible with. The better behaved ones are supported by all the
gateways, although the absence of support may just mean nobody has tried it.

https://zigbee.blakadder.com/

Could you point me to a selection of the things I would need to say
setup an 'occupancy light' that would come on at dusk and go off at
midnight please and that I could also override remotely (within the
house at least) from my phone?

There are various routes but I'd suggest looking at Home Assistant on a RPi:
https://www.home-assistant.io/hassio/
That provides a local webpage or it can be wrapped in their Android/iOS app.
(If you want access from outside your network they have a pay-for service,
or you can just open ports on your router)

Then you need a Zigbee dongle, depending on the gateway software you pick.
Home Assistant has its own Zigbee plugin now, which might be a good starting
point and supports various:
https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/zha/

(I'm using zigbee2mqtt which is a different route, and a bit more fiddly to
set up. I might try ZHA at some point)

If pairing is enabled in ZHA, you initiate pairing on the device (hold a
button, turn it on/off 6 times, whatever). HA picks it up and shows a bunch
of controls on your home screen, depending on whatever it does (sensor,
toggle, dial, etc). You can rename them, hide the irrelevant ones, group
them, etc. You can also set up rules like 'when ambient light X do ...'.
All the telemetry is logged so you get graphs of everything.

Theo

On 28 Nov 2020 21:37:22 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

T i m wrote:
Like, do you have (or can you have) some sort of server or is it
called / in the hub? How would you tell a mains lamp to turn on on a
schedule and / or from a mechanical switch etc? (I 'get' the switches
and sockets etc).

Zigbee stuff needs a 'coordinator' bridge from Zigbee to 'something else',
because your phone/laptop/etc don't have Zigbee. That's typically the hub
which has a network connection, but there are USB dongles (I'm using a
CC2531 in a RPi).

OK.

The software on the hub gets messages like 'button pressed', 'temperature
15C' and can send messages like 'turn on light'. Then it's up to it what to
do with it - call out to Alexa or some cloud server, or have the logic
locally, it entirely depends on how it's programmed.

(Because your phone does Bluetooth an advantage the BT gadgets have is they
can be controlled directly from a phone app, but often in a limited way - eg
need to be in the same room for the connection to work. BT doesn't really
scale very well)

Understood.

So, I'm guessing I'd be looking for it to say 'Zigbee compatible' or
some such? Can devices be compliant to more than one base system?

Start here. It lists a lot of devices and shows which middleware gateways
they're compatible with. The better behaved ones are supported by all the
gateways, although the absence of support may just mean nobody has tried it.

https://zigbee.blakadder.com/

Handy, (bookmarked) thanks.

Could you point me to a selection of the things I would need to say
setup an 'occupancy light' that would come on at dusk and go off at
midnight please and that I could also override remotely (within the
house at least) from my phone?

There are various routes but I'd suggest looking at Home Assistant on a RPi:
https://www.home-assistant.io/hassio/

Funnily enough I'd just got to that after posting last (but not
downloaded any images as yet). It's good to have something tangible to
play with to start to see how it works etc.

That provides a local webpage or it can be wrapped in their Android/iOS app.
(If you want access from outside your network they have a pay-for service,
or you can just open ports on your router)

Ok.

Then you need a Zigbee dongle, depending on the gateway software you pick.
Home Assistant has its own Zigbee plugin now, which might be a good starting
point and supports various:
https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/zha/

Ah, I thought I'd seen reference to Home Assistant (and looked it up)
previously and thought that 'it' was what was 'Zigby'. So it's just a
generic platform that can take optional plugins (like Zigbee) to make
it more flexible, add those features etc?

(I'm using zigbee2mqtt which is a different route, and a bit more fiddly to
set up. I might try ZHA at some point)

If pairing is enabled in ZHA, you initiate pairing on the device (hold a
button, turn it on/off 6 times, whatever).

So was that the same as I would have done with the Ikea LED lamp and
it's little dimmer puck? I think you pressed / held a button on the
puck near the lamp (or there was a button on the lamp).

HA picks it up and shows a bunch
of controls on your home screen, depending on whatever it does (sensor,
toggle, dial, etc).

That's the exciting bit. ;-)

You can rename them, hide the irrelevant ones, group
them, etc.

Cool.

You can also set up rules like 'when ambient light X do ...'.

Handy.

All the telemetry is logged so you get graphs of everything.

Sounds a bit like the other thing I was running on a RPI Zero W that
collected info from weather stations and my mates Solar installation
etc (that I can't think of the name of now). I ran it for quite a
while (and it was mostly reliable) just that several of the remote
sites must have shut down and I think I used the RPi for something
else.

I might (try to) put HA Zigbee on a RPi4 tomorrow ... (after I've
figured out why my newish ITX / Atom based W10 PC gives an 'Out of
range' on the NEC MultiSync LCD2070NX monitor as soon as the Intel
Driver installs, even though it's set to just 1024x768 on both the
default MS driver and the Intel one (after going into SafeMode and
(supposedly) setting the res to that in the Intel driver)? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On 28 Nov 2020 21:37:22 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:
Then you need a Zigbee dongle, depending on the gateway software you pick.
Home Assistant has its own Zigbee plugin now, which might be a good starting
point and supports various:
https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/zha/

Ah, I thought I'd seen reference to Home Assistant (and looked it up)
previously and thought that 'it' was what was 'Zigby'. So it's just a
generic platform that can take optional plugins (like Zigbee) to make
it more flexible, add those features etc?

HA has 'integrations' which are plugins for all kinds of services. ZHA is
their own one for Zigbee. zigbee2mqtt is a third party one for zigbee, and
there are plenty of others. There's an app store type interface to install
them (actually two interfaces, because Hassio have their own plugins in
addition to HA's).

So was that the same as I would have done with the Ikea LED lamp and
it's little dimmer puck? I think you pressed / held a button on the
puck near the lamp (or there was a button on the lamp).

Yes. Each device has a different way to pair which should be described
in its instructions.

Theo