Shallow tale
 

about internet failing when a TV is turned on.

Any explanations?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainm...-brands-welsh-
couple-his-favourite-guests-ever-and-he-has-a-big-surprise-for-them/ar-
BB19kIn0?ocid=msedgntp

Shallow tale
 

On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 10:09:23 GMT, JohnP wrote:

about internet failing when a TV is turned on.

Any explanations?

This the welsh village that has suffered poor internet speeds for 18
months?

xDSL uses carriers every 8.625 kHz from about 8 kHz up to 2.2 MHz,
each one signalling up to 16 bits. It doesn't take much interference
to knock out a carrier or three. MW/LW broadcast stations can do it
easyly, at night foriegn stations come to play as well. A Broadband
noise source can affect all the carriers severly limiting the number
of bits that can be signalled.

SMPSU's are noitorious sources of such RF noise (anything from wall
warts to internal PSU's to LED/CFL lightbulbs) and all the digital
electonics around these days doesn't help. Then you have deliberate
radiation of broadband RF generated by ethernet power line devices.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 11:09, JohnP wrote:
about internet failing when a TV is turned on.

Any explanations?

Its all explained in The Register

https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...oke_broadband/

Probably an arcing switch. When my boiler fires up the arc igniter plays
hell with wifi and power over mains..

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainm...-brands-welsh-
couple-his-favourite-guests-ever-and-he-has-a-big-surprise-for-them/ar-
BB19kIn0?ocid=msedgntp



--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

Shallow tale
 

On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 11:41:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Its all explained in The Register

https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...oke_broadband/

Probably an arcing switch.

Not overly convinced that a single shortish noise event would cause
the the DLM to knock the speed back and for it to recover overnight
to be knocked back the next day. In my experience the DLM needs quite
a prolonged period of noise/disconnections, as in minutes, to kick in
and takes up three days to recover.

A continious broadband noise source would just push the number of
bits each carrier can signal down, thus reducing the total available
throughput. This would manifest itself as speed changes that followed
the level of interference quite quickly. ie Telly on slow, telly off
fast.

When my boiler fires up the arc igniter plays hell with wifi ...

That ought to looked at, the old or new (oil) boiler had no affecct
on the WifI at all. Didn't even make any noise on a MW radio tuned
between stations. I wonder why 612 kHz is mentioned by the Openreach
bods?

--
Cheers
Dave.

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 12:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 11:41:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Its all explained in The Register

https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...oke_broadband/

Probably an arcing switch.

Not overly convinced that a single shortish noise event would cause
the the DLM to knock the speed back and for it to recover overnight
to be knocked back the next day. In my experience the DLM needs quite
a prolonged period of noise/disconnections, as in minutes, to kick in
and takes up three days to recover.

The story didn't say that.It said that people lost broadband for a short
period every morning

A continious broadband noise source would just push the number of
bits each carrier can signal down, thus reducing the total available
throughput.

It wasnt a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically a
single very powerful burst that splattered the spectrum and knocked
everyone off line for a moment


This would manifest itself as speed changes that followed
the level of interference quite quickly. ie Telly on slow, telly off
fast.

Except it wasn't that.


When my boiler fires up the arc igniter plays hell with wifi ...

That ought to looked at, the old or new (oil) boiler had no affecct
on the WifI at all. Didn't even make any noise on a MW radio tuned
between stations. I wonder why 612 kHz is mentioned by the Openreach
bods?

Perhaps yours is gas, not oil.
And has a pilot light





--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

Shallow tale
 

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/09/2020 12:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 11:41:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Its all explained in The Register

https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...oke_broadband/

Probably an arcing switch.

Not overly convinced that a single shortish noise event would cause
the the DLM to knock the speed back and for it to recover overnight
to be knocked back the next day. In my experience the DLM needs quite
a prolonged period of noise/disconnections, as in minutes, to kick in
and takes up three days to recover.

The story didn't say that.It said that people lost broadband for a short
period every morning

That depends on which paper you read. In the Times "As long as the tv set
was on, it was generatingb interference." The article also says that the
interference got into the owner's router and was then fed out onto
tehnphone network.


--

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Shallow tale
 

On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:57:38 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...oke_broadband/

Probably an arcing switch.

Not overly convinced that a single shortish noise event would
cause
the the DLM to knock the speed back and for it to recover
overnight
to be knocked back the next day.

The story didn't say that.It said that people lost broadband for a short
period every morning

That's not how I read the first version I saw on the BBC News site a
couple of days ago or the ISPreview version. Got bored reading the
same verbatim (ish) and randomly embroidered press release after
that... B-)

It wasn t a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically a
single very powerful burst that splattered the spectrum and knocked
everyone off line for a moment

But unless that noise burst upset the DLM and it knocked the speed
back people wouldn't notice the short outage and/or complain about
"slow broadband", particulary at 0700 in the morning. My ADSL2+
connection drops occasionally, A&A send me a text when it does. The
text is normally the first thing I know about it, even if I'm using
the net at the time. The connection resyncs at the same speed as it
was (+/= 100 kBps ish) within 60 seconds.

When my boiler fires up the arc igniter plays hell with wifi ...

That ought to looked at, the old or new (oil) boiler had no
affecct
on the WifI at all.

Perhaps yours is gas, not oil.

Er, then why did I write "the old or new (oil) boiler"?

And has a pilot light

Thought pilot lights had been banned ages ago but not having access
to gas for 20 odd years I'm a little behind the times for gas
boilers.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Shallow tale
 

Would it have to have been a CRT TV?

Shallow tale
 

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:57:38 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...oke_broadband/

Probably an arcing switch.

Not overly convinced that a single shortish noise event would
cause
the the DLM to knock the speed back and for it to recover
overnight
to be knocked back the next day.

The story didn't say that.It said that people lost broadband for a
short period every morning

That's not how I read the first version I saw on the BBC News site a
couple of days ago or the ISPreview version. Got bored reading the
same verbatim (ish) and randomly embroidered press release after
that... B-)

It wasn t a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically
a single very powerful burst that splattered the spectrum and
knocked everyone off line for a moment

That is definitely NOT what the Times reported


But unless that noise burst upset the DLM and it knocked the speed
back people wouldn't notice the short outage and/or complain about
"slow broadband", particulary at 0700 in the morning. My ADSL2+
connection drops occasionally, A&A send me a text when it does. The
text is normally the first thing I know about it, even if I'm using
the net at the time. The connection resyncs at the same speed as it
was (+/= 100 kBps ish) within 60 seconds.

When my boiler fires up the arc igniter plays hell with wifi ...

That ought to looked at, the old or new (oil) boiler had no
affecct
on the WifI at all.

Perhaps yours is gas, not oil.

Er, then why did I write "the old or new (oil) boiler"?

And has a pilot light

Thought pilot lights had been banned ages ago but not having access
to gas for 20 odd years I'm a little behind the times for gas
boilers.

my boiler has a pilot light. It was installed in 1989, but I don't think
there has been any retrospective banning - just not used on new boilers.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 12:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


It wasnt a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically a
single very powerful burst thatÂ* splattered theÂ* spectrum and knocked
everyone off line for a moment


And would anyone have noticed a short outage at 7am?


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 13:48, charles wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/09/2020 12:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 11:41:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Its all explained in The Register

https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...oke_broadband/

Probably an arcing switch.

Not overly convinced that a single shortish noise event would cause
the the DLM to knock the speed back and for it to recover overnight
to be knocked back the next day. In my experience the DLM needs quite
a prolonged period of noise/disconnections, as in minutes, to kick in
and takes up three days to recover.

The story didn't say that.It said that people lost broadband for a short
period every morning

That depends on which paper you read. In the Times "As long as the tv set
was on, it was generatingb interference."

Not according to El Reg, who specifically IDed it as a short duration
spike ofnoise

The article also says that the
interference got into the owner's router and was then fed out onto
tehnphone network.

Well that might be in some sense true, but it sounds more like ignorant
********.

Newspapers do not employ STEM graduates these days.

And the times produces as much fake science news as the rest, apart from
the guardian which is ALL fake science news...
--
€œThe urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
urge to rule it.€�
€“ H. L. Mencken

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 14:30, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:57:38 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...oke_broadband/

Probably an arcing switch.

Not overly convinced that a single shortish noise event would
cause
the the DLM to knock the speed back and for it to recover
overnight
to be knocked back the next day.

The story didn't say that.It said that people lost broadband for a short
period every morning

That's not how I read the first version I saw on the BBC News site a
couple of days ago or the ISPreview version. Got bored reading the
same verbatim (ish) and randomly embroidered press release after
that... B-)

It wasnâ t a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically a
single very powerful burst that splattered the spectrum and knocked
everyone off line for a moment

But unless that noise burst upset the DLM and it knocked the speed
back people wouldn't notice the short outage and/or complain about
"slow broadband", particulary at 0700 in the morning.

If you get a long enough noise burst the connection will in fact drop
and you will get a new attempt to train - possibly at a higher noise
margin, this is very noticeable

My ADSL2+
connection drops occasionally, A&A send me a text when it does. The
text is normally the first thing I know about it, even if I'm using
the net at the time. The connection resyncs at the same speed as it
was (+/= 100 kBps ish) within 60 seconds.

That is just a glitch. My ADSL never dropped at all, although it would
dynamically adjust its bit buckets and connection speed, unless there
was a burst of noise on te line, when I would contact the ISP and get
that sorted.

When my boiler fires up the arc igniter plays hell with wifi ...

That ought to looked at, the old or new (oil) boiler had no
affecct
on the WifI at all.

Perhaps yours is gas, not oil.

Er, then why did I write "the old or new (oil) boiler"?

No idea

And has a pilot light

Thought pilot lights had been banned ages ago but not having access
to gas for 20 odd years I'm a little behind the times for gas
boilers.

Well me too.


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 14:58, JohnP wrote:
Would it have to have been a CRT TV?

Almost certainly


--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 16:52, alan_m wrote:
On 23/09/2020 12:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


It wasnt a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically a
single very powerful burst thatÂ* splattered theÂ* spectrum and knocked
everyone off line for a moment


And would anyone have noticed a short outage at 7am?


Someone obviously did.
OTOH it MIGHT have been something in the TV oscillating at MF and
spewing crap out if the aerial.

Linescan is what - 16Khz? - with harmonics going well up.



--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 11:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/09/2020 11:09, JohnP wrote:
about internet failing when a TV is turned on.

Any explanations?

Its all explained in The Register

https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...oke_broadband/

Probably an arcing switch. When my boiler fires up the arc igniter plays
hell with wifi and power over mains..

Cheapo plug-in mechanical timers for switching on/off lamps
clobber stb's for a coule of seconds, depending on proximity.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainm...-brands-welsh-
couple-his-favourite-guests-ever-and-he-has-a-big-surprise-for-them/ar-
BB19kIn0?ocid=msedgntp



Jeremy Vine had the 'expert' from Openreach who tracked it down on his
program today Just after 1PM. Fault was caused by 2nd hand TV/DVD combo
being turned on at the same time every morning, though broadband
download speeds were said to be barely 1 meg anyway in the area.

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 18:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/09/2020 14:58, JohnP wrote:
Would it have to have been a CRT TV?

Almost certainly



Openreach bloke said it was a TV/DVD combo, which must
rule out a CRT TV. Did these ever have DVD players ?.

Shallow tale
 

Andrew wrote:

Jeremy Vine had the 'expert' from Openreach who tracked it down on his
program today Just after 1PM. Fault was caused by 2nd hand TV/DVD combo
being turned on at the same time every morning

Don't suppose he mentioned whether it gave continuous interference all
the time it was left on, or just a spike at the time it was turned on?

Shallow tale
 

Andrew wrote:

Openreach bloke said it was a TV/DVD combo, which must
rule out a CRT TV. Did these ever have DVD players ?.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/CRT-TVs-with-Built-in-DVD-Player/11071/bn_18504743

Shallow tale
 

Andy Burns wrote in news:ht1nuaF6t2cU1
@mid.individual.net:

Andrew wrote:

Jeremy Vine had the 'expert' from Openreach who tracked it down on his
program today Just after 1PM. Fault was caused by 2nd hand TV/DVD combo
being turned on at the same time every morning

Don't suppose he mentioned whether it gave continuous interference all
the time it was left on, or just a spike at the time it was turned on?



Always amazes me if a luxury house or hotel is being described inevitably a
"Flat Screen TV" gets a mention. As though it is something to yearn for.

Shallow tale
 

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 23/09/2020 18:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/09/2020 14:58, JohnP wrote:
Would it have to have been a CRT TV?

Almost certainly



Openreach bloke said it was a TV/DVD combo, which must
rule out a CRT TV. Did these ever have DVD players ?.

yes they did.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 21:02, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:

Jeremy Vine had the 'expert' from Openreach who tracked it down on his
program today Just after 1PM. Fault was caused by 2nd hand TV/DVD combo
being turned on at the same time every morning

Don't suppose he mentioned whether it gave continuous interference all
the time it was left on, or just a spike at the time it was turned on?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000mq3h

Radio 2, 12:00 - 14:00, Jump to 1:35 PM

James Vince, Senior Pro-active Network manager for Openreach
said it was a Singleton Burst of Radio Interference.

I like the comment at 1:44PM about the bloke in Ireland who went
round the village late at night and used his TV remote to turn all
the TV's over to Babestation.

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 21:38, Andrew wrote:
On 23/09/2020 21:02, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:

Jeremy Vine had the 'expert' from Openreach who tracked it down on his
program today Just after 1PM. Fault was caused by 2nd hand TV/DVD combo
being turned on at the same time every morning

Don't suppose he mentioned whether it gave continuous interference all
the time it was left on, or just a spike at the time it was turned on?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000mq3h

Radio 2, 12:00 - 14:00,Â* Jump to 1:35 PM

James Vince, Senior Pro-active Network manager for Openreach
said it was a Singleton Burst of Radio Interference.

I like the comment at 1:44PM about the bloke in Ireland who went
round the village late at night and used his TV remote to turn all
the TV's over to Babestation.

Also listen from 1:54 onwards

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 11:41, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Probably an arcing switch. When my boiler fires up the arc igniter plays
hell with wifi and power over mains..

No, not at all relevant. You're generalising from one vaguely relevant
bit of knowledge you've gained from personal experience.

Bill

Shallow tale
 

On 23/09/2020 12:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It wasnt a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically a
single very powerful burst thatÂ* splattered theÂ* spectrum and knocked
everyone off line for a moment

You've believed the media. They got it wrong.

Bill

Shallow tale
 

This has been done to death on quite a few newsgroups. Since the bbc story
originally was a bit low on specifics, it could be almost anything really.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"JohnP" wrote in message
...
about internet failing when a TV is turned on.

Any explanations?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainm...-brands-welsh-
couple-his-favourite-guests-ever-and-he-has-a-big-surprise-for-them/ar-
BB19kIn0?ocid=msedgntp

Shallow tale
 

And of course the effect works the other way, if you have adsl overhead
lines going over your property, te burbling hash from the long and medium
wave bands all the way over the 160 metre ham band can be terrible. The
sooner we get rid of it the better. Oh and don't get me started on powerline
adaptors and wall wart interference. At least those plasma tvs are almost
gone with their huge pulses of noise and general hash.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 10:09:23 GMT, JohnP wrote:

about internet failing when a TV is turned on.

Any explanations?

This the welsh village that has suffered poor internet speeds for 18
months?

xDSL uses carriers every 8.625 kHz from about 8 kHz up to 2.2 MHz,
each one signalling up to 16 bits. It doesn't take much interference
to knock out a carrier or three. MW/LW broadcast stations can do it
easyly, at night foriegn stations come to play as well. A Broadband
noise source can affect all the carriers severly limiting the number
of bits that can be signalled.

SMPSU's are noitorious sources of such RF noise (anything from wall
warts to internal PSU's to LED/CFL lightbulbs) and all the digital
electonics around these days doesn't help. Then you have deliberate
radiation of broadband RF generated by ethernet power line devices.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Shallow tale
 

williamwright wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It wasnt a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically a
single very powerful burst thatÂ* splattered theÂ* spectrum and knocked
everyone off line for a moment

You've believed the media.

The original newspaper reports called it SHINE (the term for a single
burst, not REIN the term for continuous) and the BT engineer on radio2
yesteday said the same ...

They got it wrong.

And you know different because ... ?

Shallow tale
 

Hmm, I am not so sure, tvs generally are much lower power than thermostats.
A person across the road used to have a plasma, and he used to turn it off
at the wall at night. When it was turned on it would produce a very loud
hummy carrier with harmonics that drifted from the top end of Medium wave
all the way up to around 2.4mhz, which I assume was created by the switch
mode psu running in standby. When it came on to be watched there was also a
hash noise all over the lf bands. Those screens were terrible for
generating crap.
Luckily, most are now dead.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 23/09/2020 11:09, JohnP wrote:
about internet failing when a TV is turned on.

Any explanations?

Its all explained in The Register

https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/...oke_broadband/

Probably an arcing switch. When my boiler fires up the arc igniter plays
hell with wifi and power over mains..

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainm...-brands-welsh-
couple-his-favourite-guests-ever-and-he-has-a-big-surprise-for-them/ar-
BB19kIn0?ocid=msedgntp



--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

Shallow tale
 

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
williamwright wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It wasn‘t a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically a
single very powerful burst that splattered the spectrum and knocked
everyone off line for a moment

You've believed the media.

The original newspaper reports called it SHINE (the term for a single
burst, not REIN the term for continuous) and the BT engineer on radio2
yesteday said the same ...

They got it wrong.

And you know different because ... ?

we read the Times

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Shallow tale
 

On 24/09/2020 08:04, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Hmm, I am not so sure, tvs generally are much lower power than thermostats.
A person across the road used to have a plasma, and he used to turn it off
at the wall at night. When it was turned on it would produce a very loud
hummy carrier with harmonics that drifted from the top end of Medium wave
all the way up to around 2.4mhz, which I assume was created by the switch
mode psu running in standby. When it came on to be watched there was also a
hash noise all over the lf bands. Those screens were terrible for
generating crap.
Luckily, most are now dead.
Brian


Are you referring to the TV itself or the TV owner themself?

:-)

Shallow tale
 

On 24/09/2020 07:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
This has been done to death on quite a few newsgroups. Since the bbc story
originally was a bit low on specifics, it could be almost anything really.
Brian



I did have an occasion where I could not recieve two specific
transponders on Freesat via my domestic IRS system.

I only managed to solve it by either:

Putting the case back on a Freenas Server or by physically increasing
teh distance between the Freenas server and the Multiswitches.

(all of it was in the loft)

S.

Shallow tale
 

On 24/09/2020 08:00, Andy Burns wrote:
williamwright wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It wasnt a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically
a single very powerful burst thatÂ* splattered theÂ* spectrum and
knocked everyone off line for a moment

You've believed the media.

The original newspaper reports called it SHINE (the term for a single
burst, not REIN the term for continuous) and the BT engineer on radio2
yesteday said the same ...

They got it wrong.

And you know different because ... ?

The Times report supported my common sense assessment.

Bill

Shallow tale
 

On 24/09/2020 00:55, williamwright wrote:
On 23/09/2020 12:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It wasnt a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically a
single very powerful burst thatÂ* splattered theÂ* spectrum and knocked
everyone off line for a moment

You've believed the media. They got it wrong.

Bill


I wonder if all the villagers had ADSL provided via overhead phone
lines.....?

This would make them "effective" recieve antennas for anything emitting
signals in the same frequency range as ADSL?

When I cabled up my my house, I used STP cable which is like UTP but
with a metal foil around it.

One end of the metal foil is bonded to earth in the loft.

The purpose was to:

(a) prevent any networking signals emanating and getting into something else
(b) prevent any signals from getting into the ethernet cables and
affecting my home network performance.

It is also Cat 6 rated cable so I can push it to beyond 1 GBit/s if the
occasion ever arises.

There is a lot to be said for having Fibre to the premises, as it would
be immune to electrical and/or RF interference.

Shallow tale
 

On 24/09/2020 09:26, charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
williamwright wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It wasn€˜t a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically a
single very powerful burst that splattered the spectrum and knocked
everyone off line for a moment

You've believed the media.

The original newspaper reports called it SHINE (the term for a single
burst, not REIN the term for continuous) and the BT engineer on radio2
yesteday said the same ...

They got it wrong.

And you know different because ... ?

we read the Times

We read The Register, which actually knows the difference, and checks
its facts.


--
€œA leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
€œWe did this ourselves.€�

ۥ Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

Shallow tale
 

Don't hold your breath, there was a 2nd hand panny plasma
telly in the BHF shop in Worthing just before lockdown.

Andrew

On 24/09/2020 08:04, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Hmm, I am not so sure, tvs generally are much lower power than thermostats.
A person across the road used to have a plasma, and he used to turn it off
at the wall at night. When it was turned on it would produce a very loud
hummy carrier with harmonics that drifted from the top end of Medium wave
all the way up to around 2.4mhz, which I assume was created by the switch
mode psu running in standby. When it came on to be watched there was also a
hash noise all over the lf bands. Those screens were terrible for
generating crap.
Luckily, most are now dead.
Brian

Shallow tale
 

On 24/09/2020 10:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
We read The Register, which actually knows the difference, and checks
its facts.

What did it say?

Bill

Shallow tale
 

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 10:14:12 +0100, Andrew wrote:

Don't hold your breath, there was a 2nd hand panny plasma
telly in the BHF shop in Worthing just before lockdown.

Our plasma set is fine. Doesn't shove out any great amount of RFI.
Certainly not to the extent you can tell if it's on or off by the
noise level in the HF bands.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Shallow tale
 

Andy Burns wrote:
williamwright wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It wasnt a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically
a single very powerful burst that splattered the spectrum and
knocked everyone off line for a moment

You've believed the media.

The original newspaper reports called it SHINE (the term for a single
burst, not REIN the term for continuous) and the BT engineer on radio2
yesteday said the same ...

They got it wrong.

And you know different because ... ?

There is no credible explanation so far. I'm hearing
and reading a lot of ********.

They obviously do not want to give precise technical detail,
to arm mischievous school boys with "ammunition".

I've had an outage here, caused by "noise-on-mains", which then
feeds through the *two* levels of regulation in my SGS/Thomson
ADSL2+ modem/router and knocks out sync. The noise source was
a persistent fixed source of noise. Not a single pulse. Sufficiently
broadband to knock out all the frequency bins. I have no equipment
for quantification. My outage would happen at ~9PM in the evening,
as if SNR degraded on the line around then from crosstalk, and that's
when the thing would drop sync. Replacing the ATX supply fixed it.

Note that using the correct version of "DMT" utility for
your ADSL modem, it shows bins and SNR conditions of
said bins. Any cottager in the village in question, could
have used DMT before and after the event, to see what
it looked like. DMT does not work on all modems, the procedure
is custom to each company, and the tool uses something like
telnet to collect bin data.

On the old dialup modems, there is an AT command set command
to dump the bin state after a connection drops. This allows
spotting the presence of loading coils or the like for
dialup modems. Well, the ADSL2+ modems are very similar
in nature - just the access method to collect the information
is different. On my particular modem, if I were to update
the firmware, one of the "features" is support for DMT
data collection is dropped from the design. That's how
tenuous usage of DMT is.

Check dslreports.com for screenshots of DMT output,
as well as general advice on tuning for ADSL.

Knocking out a single bin does not stop ADSL. It's designed
to handle line impairments, by using whatever part of the
spectrum that will pass a signal unimpeded. Judging by the
villagers ****-poor speed (1.5Mbit/sec), it's
obvious they're well into the soup to start with.

For me, the $64K question is, how is that TV "signal" being
spewed through the entire village ? Are all the houses running
off the same phase, such that noise-on-mains is available
to everyone ? For example, where I live, only three houses
are off the same transformer, and my failed ATX supply
that was generating the noise pattern, could have caused
grief for the other two houses. One house has no Internet,
the other uses Rogers Cable for broadband, so no harm or
foul there. The signal would not make it past the transformer,
to the next distribution level. (Just as powerline networking
doesn't extend past the transformer into the next distribution
level of mains.)

*******

You could place one of these between the defective TV/DVD player
and mains, to attempt to stop noise-on-mains. Maybe
throw in a ferrite as well. Keep the cable between the
TV set and this box to a minimum (reduce antenna loop size, for
cases where your emitter is also causing RF problems for others,
rather than just conducted noise).

(Use the download button to get full-resolution)

https://i.postimg.cc/CxmzjLDq/corcom...ins-filter.gif

The current datasheet isn't as detailed as that one. The
current datasheet doesn't have the equivalent schematic.

https://www.te.com/global-en/product....datasheet.pdf

( https://www.te.com/global-en/product-6609052-2.html )

These are items a very rich ham tadio operator might buy.
Or perhaps, a person wishing to continue using their
dodgy TV/DVD player :-/

*******

The villagers are 18,000 feet from the CO. They're not using
a pedestal unit with fiber leading up to it, which reduces the
copper distribution to about 500 feet or so. That wouldn't
solve the TV problem, but it would be the basis for
a solution to their "1.5Mbit/sec" performance level.

I used to be a couple miles from the CO, and fed with
a long piece of copper and got 3Mbit/sec. Once the
pedestal was added at the corner, and the copper line
length reduced, then I could get 15Mbit/sec (out of a max
of around 24Mbit/sec or so). I don't think they tariff any
higher rate on ADSL2+ here, and the ones higher than that
are VDSL flavors. VDSL here starts at 15/10, ADSL2+ max
is tariffed as 15/1. We have fiber here, but that's never
going to be added to my neighborhood. It's an apartment
dweller thing.

Paul

Shallow tale
 

On 24/09/2020 19:19, Paul wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
williamwright wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It wasnt a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was specifically
a single very powerful burst thatÂ* splattered theÂ* spectrum and
knocked everyone off line for a moment

You've believed the media.

The original newspaper reports called it SHINE (the term for a single
burst, not REIN the term for continuous) and the BT engineer on radio2
yesteday said the same ...

They got it wrong.

And you know different because ... ?

There is no credible explanation so far. I'm hearing
and reading a lot of ********.

They obviously do not want to give precise technical detail,
to arm mischievous school boys with "ammunition".

I've had an outage here, caused by "noise-on-mains", which then
feeds through the *two* levels of regulation in my SGS/Thomson
ADSL2+ modem/router and knocks out sync. The noise source was
a persistent fixed source of noise. Not a single pulse. Sufficiently
broadband to knock out all the frequency bins. I have no equipment
for quantification. My outage would happen at ~9PM in the evening,
as if SNR degraded on the line around then from crosstalk, and that's
when the thing would drop sync. Replacing the ATX supply fixed it.

Note that using the correct version of "DMT" utility for
your ADSL modem, it shows bins and SNR conditions of
said bins. Any cottager in the village in question, could
have used DMT before and after the event, to see what
it looked like. DMT does not work on all modems, the procedure
is custom to each company, and the tool uses something like
telnet to collect bin data.

On the old dialup modems, there is an AT command set command
to dump the bin state after a connection drops. This allows
spotting the presence of loading coils or the like for
dialup modems. Well, the ADSL2+ modems are very similar
in nature - just the access method to collect the information
is different. On my particular modem, if I were to update
the firmware, one of the "features" is support for DMT
data collection is dropped from the design. That's how
tenuous usage of DMT is.

Check dslreports.com for screenshots of DMT output,
as well as general advice on tuning for ADSL.

Knocking out a single bin does not stop ADSL. It's designed
to handle line impairments, by using whatever part of the
spectrum that will pass a signal unimpeded. Judging by the
villagers ****-poor speed (1.5Mbit/sec), it's
obvious they're well into the soup to start with.

For me, the $64K question is, how is that TV "signal" being
spewed through the entire village ? Are all the houses running
off the same phase, such that noise-on-mains is available
to everyone ? For example, where I live, only three houses
are off the same transformer, and my failed ATX supply
that was generating the noise pattern, could have caused
grief for the other two houses. One house has no Internet,
the other uses Rogers Cable for broadband, so no harm or
foul there. The signal would not make it past the transformer,
to the next distribution level. (Just as powerline networking
doesn't extend past the transformer into the next distribution
level of mains.)

*******

You could place one of these between the defective TV/DVD player
and mains, to attempt to stop noise-on-mains. Maybe
throw in a ferrite as well. Keep the cable between the
TV set and this box to a minimum (reduce antenna loop size, for
cases where your emitter is also causing RF problems for others,
rather than just conducted noise).

(Use the download button to get full-resolution)

Â*Â* https://i.postimg.cc/CxmzjLDq/corcom...ins-filter.gif

The current datasheet isn't as detailed as that one. The
current datasheet doesn't have the equivalent schematic.

Â*Â* https://www.te.com/global-en/product....datasheet.pdf

Â*Â* ( https://www.te.com/global-en/product-6609052-2.html )

These are items a very rich ham tadio operator might buy.
Or perhaps, a person wishing to continue using their
dodgy TV/DVD player :-/

*******

The villagers are 18,000 feet from the CO. They're not using
a pedestal unit with fiber leading up to it, which reduces the
copper distribution to about 500 feet or so. That wouldn't
solve the TV problem, but it would be the basis for
a solution to their "1.5Mbit/sec" performance level.

I used to be a couple miles from the CO, and fed with
a long piece of copper and got 3Mbit/sec. Once the
pedestal was added at the corner, and the copper line
length reduced, then I could get 15Mbit/sec (out of a max
of around 24Mbit/sec or so). I don't think they tariff any
higher rate on ADSL2+ here, and the ones higher than that
are VDSL flavors. VDSL here starts at 15/10, ADSL2+ max
is tariffed as 15/1. We have fiber here, but that's never
going to be added to my neighborhood. It's an apartment
dweller thing.

Â* Paul


you mention Rogers Cable broadband and talk about Dollars... Are you in
the United States?

Shallow tale
 

No Name wrote:
On 24/09/2020 19:19, Paul wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
williamwright wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It wasnt a 'continuous broadband noise source', it was
specifically a single very powerful burst that splattered the
spectrum and knocked everyone off line for a moment

You've believed the media.

The original newspaper reports called it SHINE (the term for a single
burst, not REIN the term for continuous) and the BT engineer on
radio2 yesteday said the same ...

They got it wrong.

And you know different because ... ?

There is no credible explanation so far. I'm hearing
and reading a lot of ********.

They obviously do not want to give precise technical detail,
to arm mischievous school boys with "ammunition".

I've had an outage here, caused by "noise-on-mains", which then
feeds through the *two* levels of regulation in my SGS/Thomson
ADSL2+ modem/router and knocks out sync. The noise source was
a persistent fixed source of noise. Not a single pulse. Sufficiently
broadband to knock out all the frequency bins. I have no equipment
for quantification. My outage would happen at ~9PM in the evening,
as if SNR degraded on the line around then from crosstalk, and that's
when the thing would drop sync. Replacing the ATX supply fixed it.

Note that using the correct version of "DMT" utility for
your ADSL modem, it shows bins and SNR conditions of
said bins. Any cottager in the village in question, could
have used DMT before and after the event, to see what
it looked like. DMT does not work on all modems, the procedure
is custom to each company, and the tool uses something like
telnet to collect bin data.

On the old dialup modems, there is an AT command set command
to dump the bin state after a connection drops. This allows
spotting the presence of loading coils or the like for
dialup modems. Well, the ADSL2+ modems are very similar
in nature - just the access method to collect the information
is different. On my particular modem, if I were to update
the firmware, one of the "features" is support for DMT
data collection is dropped from the design. That's how
tenuous usage of DMT is.

Check dslreports.com for screenshots of DMT output,
as well as general advice on tuning for ADSL.

Knocking out a single bin does not stop ADSL. It's designed
to handle line impairments, by using whatever part of the
spectrum that will pass a signal unimpeded. Judging by the
villagers ****-poor speed (1.5Mbit/sec), it's
obvious they're well into the soup to start with.

For me, the $64K question is, how is that TV "signal" being
spewed through the entire village ? Are all the houses running
off the same phase, such that noise-on-mains is available
to everyone ? For example, where I live, only three houses
are off the same transformer, and my failed ATX supply
that was generating the noise pattern, could have caused
grief for the other two houses. One house has no Internet,
the other uses Rogers Cable for broadband, so no harm or
foul there. The signal would not make it past the transformer,
to the next distribution level. (Just as powerline networking
doesn't extend past the transformer into the next distribution
level of mains.)

*******

You could place one of these between the defective TV/DVD player
and mains, to attempt to stop noise-on-mains. Maybe
throw in a ferrite as well. Keep the cable between the
TV set and this box to a minimum (reduce antenna loop size, for
cases where your emitter is also causing RF problems for others,
rather than just conducted noise).

(Use the download button to get full-resolution)

https://i.postimg.cc/CxmzjLDq/corcom...ins-filter.gif

The current datasheet isn't as detailed as that one. The
current datasheet doesn't have the equivalent schematic.

https://www.te.com/global-en/product....datasheet.pdf

( https://www.te.com/global-en/product-6609052-2.html )

These are items a very rich ham tadio operator might buy.
Or perhaps, a person wishing to continue using their
dodgy TV/DVD player :-/

*******

The villagers are 18,000 feet from the CO. They're not using
a pedestal unit with fiber leading up to it, which reduces the
copper distribution to about 500 feet or so. That wouldn't
solve the TV problem, but it would be the basis for
a solution to their "1.5Mbit/sec" performance level.

I used to be a couple miles from the CO, and fed with
a long piece of copper and got 3Mbit/sec. Once the
pedestal was added at the corner, and the copper line
length reduced, then I could get 15Mbit/sec (out of a max
of around 24Mbit/sec or so). I don't think they tariff any
higher rate on ADSL2+ here, and the ones higher than that
are VDSL flavors. VDSL here starts at 15/10, ADSL2+ max
is tariffed as 15/1. We have fiber here, but that's never
going to be added to my neighborhood. It's an apartment
dweller thing.

Paul


you mention Rogers Cable broadband and talk about Dollars... Are you in
the United States?

I'm in Canada.

Most of the standards in the "Standards" section here are ITU,
so I'm assuming the ADSL is the same everywhere. Only at the
beginning might it have been different. (The first devices
were a bit shy on performance.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymme...ADSL_standards

One difference is, the Americans choose to serve their users
at 36000 feet for their scummiest service offering. Nobody else
does that (Canada doesn't). It's 18000 feet max for the rest.
And rural users tend to get the all-copper version of the tech,
with no attempt to provide something you'd call broadband. That
used to drive me nuts here when I was getting 3Mbit/sec. The
bill would say I was receiving "5Mbit service", when it never
could deliver such a thing, and they used to torture us with "service
improvements". And the bandwidth meter would get a slight nudge.
I could hear the snickering coming all the way from the Bell
building. Such frauds. It's different today, as the bandwidth
delivered is goodput, and the customer doesn't "eat" the
overheads like they used to do. You received 3Mbit of packets,
but after the PPPOE is removed, the figure was less than that.

There are some posters in the US, who get 1.5Mbit/sec down,
and that's considered "normal". And those are the people
who are potentially on 36000 feet of copper pair. And they leave
their household access cable laying in the grass, for the lawn mower
to go over them. Class stuff. Our cables never lay on the
ground here. The lawn mower at least, can't knock out service.

Paul