Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic
guitar has disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi,
raised countersunk, length is 8mm overall (but the length of raised csk
ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able to find a supplier for
small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:50:56 +0100, wrote:

The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi, raised countersunk, length
is 8mm overall (but the length of raised csk ignores the raised bit). I
haven't been able to find a supplier for small quantities - any
suggestions?

Not even eBay?(*) If you have to buy 100 flog the rest on eBay in
small quantities, say packs of 10 probably for the same price per
pack (inc postage) you bought 100 for...

(*) Quick search found black A2 stainless round head allen socket 10
mm £4.67 delivered from a seller with 30,000 100% feedback. Do you
have a file?

--
Cheers
Dave.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 12:50, wrote:
The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic
guitar has disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi,
raised countersunk, length is 8mm overall (but the length of raised csk
ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able to find a supplier for
small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)

Have you tried eBay? Normally my first port of call for such things, and
very seldom disappointed.

You might not find a black one, and you might have to trim it to length.
Does it really have to have a raised countersink? Or you could replace
them all with standard countersink. That will give you the choice of
pozi or hex.

Watch out as the "obvious" search will also give you 3.5mm electrical
screws, which are raised dome.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 12:50, wrote:
The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic
guitar has disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi,
raised countersunk, length is 8mm overall (but the length of raised csk
ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able to find a supplier for
small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)


Self tappers, machine screws ?

B&Q will sell bags of four or five for the sort of same price as boxes
of 100 from Screwfix or such.

Do not get too caught up in what type of screwdriver is needed
pozi/hex/slot etc.

What sort of amount are you willing to spend?
Are the head types (countersunk, pan, cheese) vital?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=M3+X8+mm&ref=nb_sb_noss

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 12:50, wrote:
The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic
guitar has disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi,
raised countersunk, length is 8mm overall (but the length of raised csk
ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able to find a supplier for
small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)

ebay or amazon


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

wrote in message ...
The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic guitar has
disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi, raised countersunk, length is
8mm overall (but the length of raised csk ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able
to find a supplier for small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)

These people who appear to be UK based (all prices are in £)
do single screws along with other bits for guitars etc.

https://tonetechluthiersupplies.co.u...smo-black.html

As the screws you are after will be a fairly standard part - same as the cogs
etc. presumably they can supply what you need.


michael adams

....

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

In article ,
soup wrote:
Do not get too caught up in what type of screwdriver is needed
pozi/hex/slot etc.

Really? On a nicely crafted item like a guitar, I'd think that important.

--
*No sentence fragments *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

"michael adams" wrote in message
...

wrote in message ...
The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic guitar has
disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi, raised countersunk, length is
8mm overall (but the length of raised csk ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able
to find a supplier for small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)

These people who appear to be UK based (all prices are in £)
do single screws along with other bits for guitars etc.

https://tonetechluthiersupplies.co.u...smo-black.html

As the screws you are after will be a fairly standard part - same as the cogs
etc. presumably they can supply what you need.

The above seem to fit the bill although slotted, despite no size being given,
as they offer 10mm brass "machine head locating screws" on page 2 at 28p each.
Presumably the "locating screws" are the screws used to affix the brass plates
which carry the machine head mechanisms to the sides of the wooden body. And
there seem only two types of screw in use in a classical guitar machine head.


michael adams

....

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
soup wrote:
Do not get too caught up in what type of screwdriver is needed
pozi/hex/slot etc.

Really? On a nicely crafted item like a guitar, I'd think that important.

Indeed. So he'll maybe want order 6 screws instead of just one.
Just so as to not upset anyone such as yourself who might peer
too closely at the back of his wife's guitar, and notice one
of the screws doesn't match. And obviously word would soon get
around.


michael adams

....

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 14:39, michael adams wrote:
wrote in message ...
The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic guitar has
disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi, raised countersunk, length is
8mm overall (but the length of raised csk ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able
to find a supplier for small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)

These people who appear to be UK based (all prices are in £)
do single screws along with other bits for guitars etc.

https://tonetechluthiersupplies.co.u...smo-black.html

As the screws you are after will be a fairly standard part - same as the cogs
etc. presumably they can supply what you need.


michael adams


Thanks, but those are to attach the plates to the head rather than the
cog to the "spindle" (for want of a better name). They don't stock the
screw I need

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 13:25, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:50:56 +0100, wrote:

The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi, raised countersunk, length
is 8mm overall (but the length of raised csk ignores the raised bit). I
haven't been able to find a supplier for small quantities - any
suggestions?

Not even eBay?(*) If you have to buy 100 flog the rest on eBay in
small quantities, say packs of 10 probably for the same price per
pack (inc postage) you bought 100 for...

(*) Quick search found black A2 stainless round head allen socket 10
mm £4.67 delivered from a seller with 30,000 100% feedback. Do you
have a file?

Thanks, but I have (as always) spent time on eBay, Amazon, some fastener
suppliers and some luthier specialists. The screw needs to be raised
countersunk.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 13:30, newshound wrote:
On 07/08/2020 12:50, wrote:
The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's
acoustic guitar has disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or
pozi, raised countersunk, length is 8mm overall (but the length of
raised csk ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able to find a
supplier for small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)

Have you tried eBay? Normally my first port of call for such things, and
very seldom disappointed.

You might not find a black one, and you might have to trim it to length.
Does it really have to have a raised countersink? Or you could replace
them all with standard countersink. That will give you the choice of
pozi or hex.

Watch out as the "obvious" search will also give you 3.5mm electrical
screws, which are raised dome.
I've looked in all the obvious places, without success, hence asking here.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 14:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
soup wrote:
Do not get too caught up in what type of screwdriver is needed
pozi/hex/slot etc.

Really? On a nicely crafted item like a guitar, I'd think that important.

You are correct.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

In article ,
michael adams wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
soup wrote:
Do not get too caught up in what type of screwdriver is needed
pozi/hex/slot etc.

Really? On a nicely crafted item like a guitar, I'd think that important.

Indeed. So he'll maybe want order 6 screws instead of just one.
Just so as to not upset anyone such as yourself who might peer
too closely at the back of his wife's guitar, and notice one
of the screws doesn't match. And obviously word would soon get
around.


I only worry what I'd think. Looking at something with the wrong type of
screw fitted. Like some antique fixed to the wall with Pozi. But each to
their own...

--
*Can fat people go skinny-dipping?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

wrote in message ...
On 07/08/2020 14:39, michael adams wrote:
wrote in message ...
The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic guitar has
disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi, raised countersunk, length
is
8mm overall (but the length of raised csk ignores the raised bit). I haven't been
able
to find a supplier for small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)

These people who appear to be UK based (all prices are in £)
do single screws along with other bits for guitars etc.

https://tonetechluthiersupplies.co.u...smo-black.html

As the screws you are after will be a fairly standard part - same as the cogs
etc. presumably they can supply what you need.


michael adams


Thanks, but those are to attach the plates to the head rather than the cog to the
"spindle" (for want of a better name). They don't stock the screw I need

As I pointed out in my follow up post

" they offer 10mm brass "machine head locating screws" on page 2 at 28p each.
Presumably "locating screws" are the screws used to affix the brass plates
which carry the machine head mechanisms to the sides of the wooden body."

Which are presumably the screws you are referring to there.

And as I further pointed out

" there seem to be only two types of screw in use in a classical guitar machine
head."

But you're probably quite right. Why throw 39p of your hard earned on a
screw that definitely isn't going to fit ? Your wife clearly has a unique
design of guitar and so a stockist of guitar parts is unlikely to carry
any screws that would fit. That does of course raise the question as to
where exactly you're going to source "the complete tuner head" which you
suggested as your fall back option. As presumably it wouldn't be the same
place as you'd first look for spare screws as otherwise you wouldn't be
asking your question.


michael adams

....

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
michael adams wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
soup wrote:
Do not get too caught up in what type of screwdriver is needed
pozi/hex/slot etc.

Really? On a nicely crafted item like a guitar, I'd think that important.

Indeed. So he'll maybe want order 6 screws instead of just one.
Just so as to not upset anyone such as yourself who might peer
too closely at the back of his wife's guitar, and notice one
of the screws doesn't match. And obviously word would soon get
around.


I only worry what I'd think. Looking at something with the wrong type of
screw fitted. Like some antique fixed to the wall with Pozi. But each to
their own...

Ideally when fixing anything to a wall, whether antique or not. things
should be so arranged that the fixing is hidden, behind whatever
it is that;s being supported.

Whereas IMHO, with musical instruments the most important thing is the sound
they produce rather than what they look like. Unlike say antiques
which some people apparently find it becessary to screw to the wall.
(As with MFI wardrobes and cupboards of old)


michael adams

....







--
*Can fat people go skinny-dipping?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 15:25, wrote:

Thanks, but those are to attach the plates to the head rather than the
cog to the "spindle" (for want of a better name). They don't stock the
screw I need

Contact the secretary of your local model engineering society
(There's one in every county or major city) or even the
master society, the SMEE in London, and perhaps someone there
will make one for you as a gesture of goodwill.

From what you describe, it would only be a matter of
a few minutes to lathe one up for you.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 17:04, michael adams wrote:
wrote in message ...
On 07/08/2020 14:39, michael adams wrote:
wrote in message ...
The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic guitar has
disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi, raised countersunk, length
is
8mm overall (but the length of raised csk ignores the raised bit). I haven't been
able
to find a supplier for small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)

These people who appear to be UK based (all prices are in £)
do single screws along with other bits for guitars etc.

https://tonetechluthiersupplies.co.u...smo-black.html

As the screws you are after will be a fairly standard part - same as the cogs
etc. presumably they can supply what you need.


michael adams


Thanks, but those are to attach the plates to the head rather than the cog to the
"spindle" (for want of a better name). They don't stock the screw I need

As I pointed out in my follow up post

" they offer 10mm brass "machine head locating screws" on page 2 at 28p each.
Presumably "locating screws" are the screws used to affix the brass plates
which carry the machine head mechanisms to the sides of the wooden body."

Which are presumably the screws you are referring to there.

And as I further pointed out

" there seem to be only two types of screw in use in a classical guitar machine
head."

But you're probably quite right. Why throw 39p of your hard earned on a
screw that definitely isn't going to fit ? Your wife clearly has a unique
design of guitar and so a stockist of guitar parts is unlikely to carry
any screws that would fit. That does of course raise the question as to
where exactly you're going to source "the complete tuner head" which you
suggested as your fall back option. As presumably it wouldn't be the same
place as you'd first look for spare screws as otherwise you wouldn't be
asking your question.


michael adams

...



"michael", why the aggressive attitude? As I have said: those screws are
not intended to attach the cog to the "spindle".

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 18:49, wrote:
"michael", why the aggressive attitude? As I have said: those screws are
not intended to attach the cog to the "spindle".


he's a bolshie ****, is all

Full of hatred for a world he has been taught 'oppresses him' where the
truth is he cant accept he is simply mediocre.


--
€œThe ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.€�

Herbert Spencer

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 18:49, wrote:
"michael", why the aggressive attitude? As I have said: those screws are
not intended to attach the cog to the "spindle".

in the limit why not buy a whole set?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ROSENICE-Cl.../dp/B078H8GWGM
--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/08/2020 18:49, wrote:
"michael", why the aggressive attitude? As I have said: those screws
are not intended to attach the cog to the "spindle".

in the limit why not buy a whole set?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ROSENICE-Cl.../dp/B078H8GWGM

"type machine heads acoustic guitar" into google or Amazon

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

in uk.d-i-y wrote:

The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic
guitar has disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi,
raised countersunk, length is 8mm overall (but the length of raised csk
ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able to find a supplier for
small quantities - any suggestions?

Maybe Mr Odell will wander in and suggest some alternative search terms?

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

wrote in message ...
On 07/08/2020 17:04, michael adams wrote:
wrote in message ...
On 07/08/2020 14:39, michael adams wrote:
wrote in message ...
The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic guitar has
disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi, raised countersunk, length
is
8mm overall (but the length of raised csk ignores the raised bit). I haven't been
able
to find a supplier for small quantities - any suggestions?
(If all else fails I'll replace the complete tuner head)

These people who appear to be UK based (all prices are in £)
do single screws along with other bits for guitars etc.

https://tonetechluthiersupplies.co.u...smo-black.html

As the screws you are after will be a fairly standard part - same as the cogs
etc. presumably they can supply what you need.


michael adams


Thanks, but those are to attach the plates to the head rather than the cog to the
"spindle" (for want of a better name). They don't stock the screw I need

As I pointed out in my follow up post

" they offer 10mm brass "machine head locating screws" on page 2 at 28p each.
Presumably "locating screws" are the screws used to affix the brass plates
which carry the machine head mechanisms to the sides of the wooden body."

Which are presumably the screws you are referring to there.

And as I further pointed out

" there seem to be only two types of screw in use in a classical guitar machine
head."

But you're probably quite right. Why throw 39p of your hard earned on a
screw that definitely isn't going to fit ? Your wife clearly has a unique
design of guitar and so a stockist of guitar parts is unlikely to carry
any screws that would fit. That does of course raise the question as to
where exactly you're going to source "the complete tuner head" which you
suggested as your fall back option. As presumably it wouldn't be the same
place as you'd first look for spare screws as otherwise you wouldn't be
asking your question.


michael adams

...



"michael", why the aggressive attitude?

What's *my* attitude, whether aggressive or not, got to do with you ? Do you consider
yourself
special in some way such that other people need to conform to your expectations as to how
they should behave ?

Basically as it turns out myou're simply looking for an 8mm M3 *machine screw*. Had you
actually
specified that in your original post then that would have been of considerable help.
Of which plenty are available on eBay at £2 for 20.




michael adams

....

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 07/08/2020 18:49, wrote:
"michael", why the aggressive attitude? As I have said: those screws are not intended
to attach the cog to the "spindle".

in the limit why not buy a whole set?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ROSENICE-Cl.../dp/B078H8GWGM

Or why not just buy 10 8mm M3 black machine screws for £2 on eBay

michael adams

....

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 07/08/2020 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/08/2020 18:49, wrote:
"michael", why the aggressive attitude? As I have said: those screws are not intended
to attach the cog to the "spindle".

in the limit why not buy a whole set?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ROSENICE-Cl.../dp/B078H8GWGM
"type machine heads acoustic guitar" into google or Amazon

If you're not winding him up, then you're even more stupid than he is

And no, I'm not leaving an eBay link.


michael adams

....

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 07/08/2020 18:49, wrote:
"michael", why the aggressive attitude? As I have said: those screws are not intended
to attach the cog to the "spindle".


he's a bolshie ****, is all

Full of hatred for a world he has been taught 'oppresses him' where the truth is he
cant accept he is simply mediocre.

Well at least *you* know *your* place.

" I have less income now than the minimum wage by a huge margin. So I use my time to
save money. I cook, do DIY, sew, mend, repair and in general live the way my postwar
parents taught me, and their Depression era parents taught them. On a shoestring."

The Natural Philosopher

That's even less than *mediocre* - by, on your own admission, "a huge margin"


michael adams

....










--
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world
with fools."

Herbert Spencer

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:28:26 +0100, wrote:

(*) Quick search found black A2 stainless round head allen socket
10
mm £4.67 delivered from a seller with 30,000 100% feedback. Do
you
have a file?

Thanks, but I have (as always) spent time on eBay, Amazon, some fastener
suppliers and some luthier specialists. The screw needs to be raised
countersunk.

Can find countersunk raised head pozi but not in black. Have an
indelible black marker pen?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264274484695

First look at the picture I thought it showed counter sunk flat but
looking closer they are raised but not a lot. Confirm with seller?

--
Cheers
Dave.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 14:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
soup wrote:
Do not get too caught up in what type of screwdriver is needed
pozi/hex/slot etc.

Really? On a nicely crafted item like a guitar, I'd think that important.

Agreed, but since you can get 10-off black countersunk hex 8mm long
screws for £1-45 the OP could change them all. Would they then really
notice the lack of "dome"?

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 23:05, Nick Odell wrote:
On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 19:36:11 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

in uk.d-i-y wrote:

The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic
guitar has disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi,
raised countersunk, length is 8mm overall (but the length of raised csk
ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able to find a supplier for
small quantities - any suggestions?

Maybe Mr Odell will wander in and suggest some alternative search terms?

You called? (Thanks, Andy)

If I were 8000 miles nearer my box of odd bits and pieces I would be
happy to mail you one/some with my compliments. Any instrument
repairer will have dozens of the things lying around in their workshop
- just in case... - and that is probably true of your local music shop
too - if you still have one. Just pop in and ask them - and maybe
buy a new set of strings for that guitar at the same time.

Nick

Agreed, though since the OP seems to be fussy about an exact match they
will probably have to locate six.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 19:36:11 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

in uk.d-i-y wrote:

The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic
guitar has disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi,
raised countersunk, length is 8mm overall (but the length of raised csk
ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able to find a supplier for
small quantities - any suggestions?

Maybe Mr Odell will wander in and suggest some alternative search terms?

You called? (Thanks, Andy)

If I were 8000 miles nearer my box of odd bits and pieces I would be
happy to mail you one/some with my compliments. Any instrument
repairer will have dozens of the things lying around in their workshop
- just in case... - and that is probably true of your local music shop
too - if you still have one. Just pop in and ask them - and maybe
buy a new set of strings for that guitar at the same time.

Nick

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 20:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:28:26 +0100, wrote:

(*) Quick search found black A2 stainless round head allen socket
10
mm £4.67 delivered from a seller with 30,000 100% feedback. Do
you
have a file?

Thanks, but I have (as always) spent time on eBay, Amazon, some fastener
suppliers and some luthier specialists. The screw needs to be raised
countersunk.

Can find countersunk raised head pozi but not in black. Have an
indelible black marker pen?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264274484695

First look at the picture I thought it showed counter sunk flat but
looking closer they are raised but not a lot. Confirm with seller?

Thanks! Despite spending a while looking I hadn't found those; they
should do the job.

Source of M3 screws for Guitar tuner peg?
 

On 07/08/2020 23:05, Nick Odell wrote:
On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 19:36:11 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

in uk.d-i-y wrote:

The screw that holds the cog on one of the tuners on my wife's acoustic
guitar has disappeared. The others are M3, black, phillips or pozi,
raised countersunk, length is 8mm overall (but the length of raised csk
ignores the raised bit). I haven't been able to find a supplier for
small quantities - any suggestions?

Maybe Mr Odell will wander in and suggest some alternative search terms?

You called? (Thanks, Andy)

If I were 8000 miles nearer my box of odd bits and pieces I would be
happy to mail you one/some with my compliments. Any instrument
repairer will have dozens of the things lying around in their workshop
- just in case... - and that is probably true of your local music shop
too - if you still have one. Just pop in and ask them - and maybe
buy a new set of strings for that guitar at the same time.

Nick

:-( If only we did have a local music shop - and the loss of the screw
was discovered while she was changing the strings. I told her not to
bother because the old strings were only 5 years old but ... ;-)