In article ,
tony sayer writes:
Back to the cooker circuit protection business, it appears that some
cooker outlet plates have a 13 amp outlet on them which isn't or won't
normally be protected into which you could plug a duff appliance etc
with attendant shock risk?.....

Yes, I never use them because the protection I choose for a cooker
is not the same as the protection I choose for a kitchen worktop
socket outlet.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:25:25 +0100, tony sayer
strung together this:

Back to the cooker circuit protection business, it appears that some
cooker outlet plates have a 13 amp outlet on them which isn't or won't
normally be protected into which you could plug a duff appliance etc
with attendant shock risk?.....

According to the regulations you don't need RCD protection for the
socket, only RCD protection if someone is likely to plug something
into it that is used outdoors.
So if it has a socket, it doesn't neccesarily need an RCD behind it.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

In article , Lurch
writes
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:25:25 +0100, tony sayer
strung together this:

Back to the cooker circuit protection business, it appears that some
cooker outlet plates have a 13 amp outlet on them which isn't or won't
normally be protected into which you could plug a duff appliance etc
with attendant shock risk?.....

According to the regulations you don't need RCD protection for the
socket, only RCD protection if someone is likely to plug something
into it that is used outdoors.
So if it has a socket, it doesn't neccesarily need an RCD behind it.

Well that's a cock arsed way to look at it then. So all the other 13 amp
sockets are only in need of RCD protection if what's plugged into them
are used outdoors too?...
--
Tony Sayer

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:25:03 +0100, tony sayer
strung together this:

So all the other 13 amp
sockets are only in need of RCD protection if what's plugged into them
are used outdoors too?...

Yes.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

In article ,
Lurch writes:
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:25:25 +0100, tony sayer
strung together this:

Back to the cooker circuit protection business, it appears that some
cooker outlet plates have a 13 amp outlet on them which isn't or won't
normally be protected into which you could plug a duff appliance etc
with attendant shock risk?.....

According to the regulations you don't need RCD protection for the
socket, only RCD protection if someone is likely to plug something
into it that is used outdoors.
So if it has a socket, it doesn't neccesarily need an RCD behind it.

Some of us do installations which are better than the
minimum standards required by the regulations.

--
Andrew Gabriel

tony sayer wrote:
In article , Lurch
writes
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:25:25 +0100, tony sayer
strung together this:

Back to the cooker circuit protection business, it appears that some
cooker outlet plates have a 13 amp outlet on them which isn't or won't
normally be protected into which you could plug a duff appliance etc
with attendant shock risk?.....

According to the regulations you don't need RCD protection for the
socket, only RCD protection if someone is likely to plug something
into it that is used outdoors.
So if it has a socket, it doesn't neccesarily need an RCD behind it.

Well that's a cock arsed way to look at it then. So all the other 13 amp
sockets are only in need of RCD protection if what's plugged into them
are used outdoors too?...

It's what the regulations say. In practice it's usually interpreted
as meaning that an upstairs ring circuit doesn't have to have RCD
protection (accordong to the regulations) but that a circuit supplying
*any* downstairs sockets should have RCD protection.

--
Chris Green

On 11 Aug 2004 22:55:34 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) strung together this:

According to the regulations you don't need RCD protection for the
socket, only RCD protection if someone is likely to plug something
into it that is used outdoors.
So if it has a socket, it doesn't neccesarily need an RCD behind it.

Some of us do installations which are better than the
minimum standards required by the regulations.

Thankyou, I know that. I'm not saying you can't 30mA RCD protect
everything, if anyone wants to RCD protect every socket in the ir
entire house then that's fine, I'm just saying you don't have to.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

In article , writes
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Lurch
writes
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:25:25 +0100, tony sayer
strung together this:

Back to the cooker circuit protection business, it appears that some
cooker outlet plates have a 13 amp outlet on them which isn't or won't
normally be protected into which you could plug a duff appliance etc
with attendant shock risk?.....

According to the regulations you don't need RCD protection for the
socket, only RCD protection if someone is likely to plug something
into it that is used outdoors.
So if it has a socket, it doesn't neccesarily need an RCD behind it.

Well that's a cock arsed way to look at it then. So all the other 13 amp
sockets are only in need of RCD protection if what's plugged into them
are used outdoors too?...

It's what the regulations say. In practice it's usually interpreted
as meaning that an upstairs ring circuit doesn't have to have RCD
protection (accordong to the regulations) but that a circuit supplying
*any* downstairs sockets should have RCD protection.


Well the one and only very severe shock I had before RCD days, was from
an upstairs 13 amp point
--
Tony Sayer

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
Lurch writes:
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:25:25 +0100, tony sayer
strung together this:

Back to the cooker circuit protection business, it appears that some
cooker outlet plates have a 13 amp outlet on them which isn't or won't
normally be protected into which you could plug a duff appliance etc
with attendant shock risk?.....

According to the regulations you don't need RCD protection for the
socket, only RCD protection if someone is likely to plug something
into it that is used outdoors.
So if it has a socket, it doesn't neccesarily need an RCD behind it.

Some of us do installations which are better than the
minimum standards required by the regulations.


Well thanks be for that!.....
--
Tony Sayer

In article , wrote:

tony sayer wrote:

[Snip]

Well that's a cock arsed way to look at it then. So all the other 13 amp
sockets are only in need of RCD protection if what's plugged into them
are used outdoors too?...

It's what the regulations say. In practice it's usually interpreted
as meaning that an upstairs ring circuit doesn't have to have RCD
protection (accordong to the regulations) but that a circuit supplying
*any* downstairs sockets should have RCD protection.

So someone plugs a (faulty?) power sander into a bedroom socket, puts it
beside the open window, goes outside and climbs the aluminium ladder to
sand the window frame before painting it ....

But then, even with a RCD, perhaps the initial jolt would throw them off
the ladder anyway so I suppose it's a lose - lose situation.

--
Mike Clarke

Mike Clarke wrote:
In article , wrote:

tony sayer wrote:

[Snip]

Well that's a cock arsed way to look at it then. So all the other 13 amp
sockets are only in need of RCD protection if what's plugged into them
are used outdoors too?...

It's what the regulations say. In practice it's usually interpreted
as meaning that an upstairs ring circuit doesn't have to have RCD
protection (accordong to the regulations) but that a circuit supplying
*any* downstairs sockets should have RCD protection.

So someone plugs a (faulty?) power sander into a bedroom socket, puts it
beside the open window, goes outside and climbs the aluminium ladder to
sand the window frame before painting it ....

But then, even with a RCD, perhaps the initial jolt would throw them off
the ladder anyway so I suppose it's a lose - lose situation.

I didn't say it was actually a good idea to do things this way, I was
just saying what I believed to be the normal interpretation.
Personally I try and RCD protect all socket circuits, preferably with
an RCD/RCBD per circuit.

--
Chris Green

In article , Mike Clarke
writes
In article , wrote:

tony sayer wrote:

[Snip]

Well that's a cock arsed way to look at it then. So all the other 13 amp
sockets are only in need of RCD protection if what's plugged into them
are used outdoors too?...

It's what the regulations say. In practice it's usually interpreted
as meaning that an upstairs ring circuit doesn't have to have RCD
protection (accordong to the regulations) but that a circuit supplying
*any* downstairs sockets should have RCD protection.

So someone plugs a (faulty?) power sander into a bedroom socket, puts it
beside the open window, goes outside and climbs the aluminium ladder to
sand the window frame before painting it ....

But then, even with a RCD, perhaps the initial jolt would throw them off
the ladder anyway so I suppose it's a lose - lose situation.


Well that's more or less what happened to me some years ago, except it
was a metal cased drill. I doubt the 30 odd mill trip current would be
noticed. Well I didn't notice when working on the immersion heater
somewhile ago...
--
Tony Sayer

In message ,
"IMM" wrote:

"Owain" wrote in message
...
[...]
Lighting circuits are low current and use generously over-specified cables
in most cases, compared to cooker and immersion circuits which may be
operating at close to maximum capacity for extended periods of time. If
anything, they're more likely to cause a fire hazard through poor
connections overheating that a lighting circuit.

With modern downlighters and other types of lighting, the current drawn can
be quite substantial.



You're coming at it from the wrong direction though. Owain was trying
(IIUC) to point out that you would often have (for example) an electric
cooker on the end of some 6mm2 cable protected at 32A, drawing close
to that current and rated under installation method 6 at just 32A. This
is what he means by having circuits "operating at close to maximum
capacity for extended periods of time."

Compare this with normal lighting circuits where 1mm2 cable is rated to
11.5A under the same circumstances but is usually protected at just 6A.
Occasionally you will see a 10A lighting circuit, but more often than
not this will be wired in 1.5mm2 cable rated to 14.5A.

There is, to use one particular phrase, much more "headroom" on the
lighting circuit.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... Oh no, not another learning experience!

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:19:48 +0100, Mike Clarke
strung together this:

So someone plugs a (faulty?) power sander into a bedroom socket, puts it
beside the open window, goes outside and climbs the aluminium ladder to
sand the window frame before painting it ....

The term is "reasonably expected to supply portable equipment
outdoors". The keyword is "reasonably", if it were "possible" instead
then yes, every socket iin the house would require RCD protection.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd