| Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job,
fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
MM used his keyboard to write :
Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. I don't get it, or the logic? Unless there is a call for CH, then a spring return 3-port valve will always return back to the HW position, which is the reason they suffer so much wear - constant back and fourth motion. They need to be powered by the call for CH, to be moved away from the default HW position. A momo 3-port valve actuator is much better is this respect, they default to staying put to match the last call for CH or HW. momo = motor on/ motor off, no springs involved, hence much less wear, much less movement of the valve. |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 12/12/2019 09:44, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
A momo 3-port valve actuator is much better is this respect, they default to staying put to match the last call for CH or HW. momo = motor on/ motor off, no springs involved, hence much less wear, much less movement of the valve. In the same way that te correct place to leave a toilet seat is where ypu put it to use it. That way there is a 50% chance of it being in the right place for the next person. -- "Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) " Alan Sokal |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 12/12/2019 09:16, MM wrote:
My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. That's because with all demands satisfied, the grey control wire to the valve is left live. However that is only connected to the motor via one of the microswitches which are activated either side of the mid position of the valve. Hence if the valve was in the heating or heating + hot water state, when the system enters the "all done" state, then it will remain connected to power - and be driven to the heating only state where it will sit, with the motor under power but stalled until the next demand for heat. If the last state of operation was DHW only, then the valve will be in its unenergised state with the spring pulling it back to the DHW only position. Since neither microswitch will be activated in this position, the live grey wire will not be connected to the motor, and it will now rest in the unpowered state. There is a control circuit mod that you can do to "fix" this: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Y_plan_circuit -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 09:59:22 +0000, John Rumm
wrote: On 12/12/2019 09:16, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. That's because with all demands satisfied, the grey control wire to the valve is left live. However that is only connected to the motor via one of the microswitches which are activated either side of the mid position of the valve. Hence if the valve was in the heating or heating + hot water state, when the system enters the "all done" state, then it will remain connected to power - and be driven to the heating only state where it will sit, with the motor under power but stalled until the next demand for heat. If the last state of operation was DHW only, then the valve will be in its unenergised state with the spring pulling it back to the DHW only position. Since neither microswitch will be activated in this position, the live grey wire will not be connected to the motor, and it will now rest in the unpowered state. There is a control circuit mod that you can do to "fix" this: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Y_plan_circuit Very interesting, thanks! MM |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 12/12/2019 09:16, MM wrote:
My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM I would have thought that 15 years was quite a good life span. The motors of my momo valves did not last that long. -- Michael Chare |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes On 12/12/2019 09:44, Harry Bloomfield wrote: A momo 3-port valve actuator is much better is this respect, they default to staying put to match the last call for CH or HW. momo = motor on/ motor off, no springs involved, hence much less wear, much less movement of the valve. In the same way that te correct place to leave a toilet seat is where ypu put it to use it. That way there is a 50% chance of it being in the right place for the next person. I beg to differ. If the next user is male, he may require the seat up or down depending on need:-) -- Tim Lamb |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
In message , Tim Lamb
writes In message , The Natural Philosopher writes On 12/12/2019 09:44, Harry Bloomfield wrote: A momo 3-port valve actuator is much better is this respect, they default to staying put to match the last call for CH or HW. momo = motor on/ motor off, no springs involved, hence much less wear, much less movement of the valve. In the same way that te correct place to leave a toilet seat is where ypu put it to use it. That way there is a 50% chance of it being in the right place for the next person. I beg to differ. If the next user is male, he may require the seat up or down depending on need:-) Someone who knows more about statistics than I may chip in but, after writing the above, I wondered if the sex of the next user did really make anything different. -- Tim Lamb |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
Michael Chare explained on 12/12/2019 :
I would have thought that 15 years was quite a good life span. Exceptional longevity! Mine tended to last 18 months to three years. |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote:
My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. NT |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:16:16 +0000, Michael Chare
wrote: On 12/12/2019 09:16, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM I would have thought that 15 years was quite a good life span. The motors of my momo valves did not last that long. My heating engineer was gobsmacked that it had lasted that long, especially for a Danfoss brand, which he doesn't rate very highly. MM |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 17:28:25 GMT, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
wrote: Michael Chare explained on 12/12/2019 : I would have thought that 15 years was quite a good life span. Exceptional longevity! Mine tended to last 18 months to three years. My neighbour, whose house is identical, has had three replaced in the 15 years. Must be the way I've used the heating that's kept mine working all this time. MM |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
|
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Thursday, 12 December 2019 18:31:00 UTC, MM wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. MM Once it's hot it stops heating it. |
Help protect 3 port valve by switching off hot water last
What words... super, remarkable idea
|
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 17:28:25 GMT, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
wrote: Michael Chare explained on 12/12/2019 : I would have thought that 15 years was quite a good life span. Exceptional longevity! Mine tended to last 18 months to three years. My neighbour, whose house is identical, has had three replaced in the 15 years. Must be the way I've used the heating that's kept mine working all this time. MM My pair of Honeywell V4043 2 port valves lasted at least 42 years, from the time I bought this house in 1977 until March this year when I got a new system. They were the old type that didn't have a removable head. It was a little bit "Triggers Broom", in that the motors and microswitches had all been replaced by me two, if not three times, but the "wet" side of the valves were original and never gave any trouble. I put it down to the soft water. -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 12/12/2019 09:44, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
MM used his keyboard to write : Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. I don't get it, or the logic? Unless there is a call for CH, then a spring return 3-port valve will always return back to the HW position, which is the reason they suffer so much wear - constant back and fourth motion. They need to be powered by the call for CH, to be moved away from the default HW position. One common cause of failure is that of the motor - and that can be a separate issue from wear on the mechanics. If you look at the "normal" Y-Plan circuit: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/..._return_valves Imagine the the programmer has DHW "off" (i.e. the "HW off" output is live and the "HW on" one is not), and it and the stat are both calling for heat on the CH. The valve will move to position A or "CH only", and both microswitches will be closed (they are both open in the port B or spring return default position). The room stat now, reaches set point and opens. So there is no call for heat from either CH or DHW. However because SW1 is in the position where the grey wire is connected to the motor, and the wire is live because "HW off" is live, the motor will remain powered, and the valve will stay in position A. Should the programmer demand DHW now (even if the cylinder stat is still satisfied), "HW Off" will go low, and power will be removed from the motor - and that will allow it to spring return to the B position. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
|
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 21:05:43 +0000, ARW
wrote: On 12/12/2019 18:31, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. Ready for the annual bath then? Best take the washing up into the bath with you to save some money. Is this comment supposed to be funny, Mr Troll? MM |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 13/12/2019 09:19, MM wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:02:30 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 18:31:00 UTC, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. MM Once it's hot it stops heating it. Sure -- but only for a while, as the temperature will inevitably fall and the boiler will kick in again. If I've had my bath that day, how can I justify having a copper cylinder full of very hot water until the next day? Seems daft to have piping hot water at 3:00 a.m. at night. By insulationg it? MM -- "Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace, community, compassion, investment, security, housing...." "What kind of person is not interested in those things?" "Jeremy Corbyn?" |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Friday, 13 December 2019 09:19:08 UTC, MM wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:02:30 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 18:31:00 UTC, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. MM Once it's hot it stops heating it. Sure -- but only for a while, as the temperature will inevitably fall and the boiler will kick in again. If I've had my bath that day, how can I justify having a copper cylinder full of very hot water until the next day? Seems daft to have piping hot water at 3:00 a.m. at night. MM Even if you switch the system off at bath time you're still going to have a lot of heat in the cylinder overnight. If you care at all about run cost your cylinder should be insulated, in which case there's very little saved by turning the HW off - in winter, approximately nothing, since lost heat effectively does the same job as CH heat. The one time it would make a bit of sense to turn HW off is if you're one of those people that bathe once a week and otherwise wash cold. But those folk are pretty well gone now. Requiring the ability to run a CH system with CH on and HW off made sense once. IMHO it no longer does. NT |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 13/12/2019 09:19, MM wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:02:30 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 18:31:00 UTC, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. MM Once it's hot it stops heating it. Sure -- but only for a while, as the temperature will inevitably fall and the boiler will kick in again. If I've had my bath that day, how can I justify having a copper cylinder full of very hot water until the next day? Seems daft to have piping hot water at 3:00 a.m. at night. With good lagging, relatively little heat will be "lost". However also keep in mind where it is lost to - i.e. it ends up leaking into the house in most cases, where it will simply reduce the amount that needs replenishment from the CH at this time of year ans so is mostly cost neutral. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 13/12/2019 11:47, wrote:
Requiring the ability to run a CH system with CH on and HW off made sense once. IMHO it no longer does. I think it rather depends on what you mean by "HW off"... In many cases the traditional Y plan layout makes less sense that it used too when boilers had fixed rate outputs, and cylinders were slow recovery types that could perhaps only absorb 5kW at best. In those situations having both on truly "at once" was worthwhile. In more modern systems W plan or S plan often makes more sense - with serial rather than parallel operation of DHW and CH. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Friday, 13 December 2019 14:13:28 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/12/2019 11:47, tabbypurr wrote: Requiring the ability to run a CH system with CH on and HW off made sense once. IMHO it no longer does. I think it rather depends on what you mean by "HW off"... In many cases the traditional Y plan layout makes less sense that it used too when boilers had fixed rate outputs, and cylinders were slow recovery types that could perhaps only absorb 5kW at best. In those situations having both on truly "at once" was worthwhile. In more modern systems W plan or S plan often makes more sense - with serial rather than parallel operation of DHW and CH. I meant over a longer timescale, ie having the programmer set to HW off - it just isn't useful afaics. NT |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 13/12/2019 16:22, wrote:
On Friday, 13 December 2019 14:13:28 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 13/12/2019 11:47, tabbypurr wrote: Requiring the ability to run a CH system with CH on and HW off made sense once. IMHO it no longer does. I think it rather depends on what you mean by "HW off"... In many cases the traditional Y plan layout makes less sense that it used too when boilers had fixed rate outputs, and cylinders were slow recovery types that could perhaps only absorb 5kW at best. In those situations having both on truly "at once" was worthwhile. In more modern systems W plan or S plan often makes more sense - with serial rather than parallel operation of DHW and CH. I meant over a longer timescale, ie having the programmer set to HW off - it just isn't useful afaics. Spose it might for frost protection while on holiday etc. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
ARW Wrote in message:
On 12/12/2019 18:31, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. Ready for the annual bath then? Best take the washing up into the bath with you to save some money. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cyW4sjwkJ7c -- Jimk ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 01:30:53 +0000, John Rumm
wrote: On 13/12/2019 16:22, wrote: On Friday, 13 December 2019 14:13:28 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 13/12/2019 11:47, tabbypurr wrote: Requiring the ability to run a CH system with CH on and HW off made sense once. IMHO it no longer does. I think it rather depends on what you mean by "HW off"... In many cases the traditional Y plan layout makes less sense that it used too when boilers had fixed rate outputs, and cylinders were slow recovery types that could perhaps only absorb 5kW at best. In those situations having both on truly "at once" was worthwhile. In more modern systems W plan or S plan often makes more sense - with serial rather than parallel operation of DHW and CH. I meant over a longer timescale, ie having the programmer set to HW off - it just isn't useful afaics. Spose it might for frost protection while on holiday etc. It makes sense if you have a modern boiler with flow temperature control and a suitable control system which makes use of it. Running water at 30C throuch a cylinder coil is more likely to cool the cylinder, not heat it! Just changed my S plan to W plan for this reason. |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
|
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 14/12/2019 07:26, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 14:13:25 +0000, John Rumm wrote: In more modern systems W plan or S plan often makes more sense - with serial rather than parallel operation of DHW and CH. Are you saying that W- or S-plan systems are serial, or just that they allow for that option? My S-plan system, only two years old, is running parallel ATM, with the boiler supplying heat to both CH and DHW simultaneously. W is always serial - there is no mid position, so you can only have CH or DHW but never both at once. (its also what you typically get with most combi boilers) S Plan(+) can be either, but is the only common plan that allows for more than two zones, so becomes the plan of choice in many cases even if the "parallel" operation option is never used. (I use S+ with three zones, two CH, and one DHW. Since I also use weather compensation, the CH flow temperature would vary rarely be high enough to also heat the DHW - so the system will never operate the DHW in parallel with CH, although it can operate the two CH zones in any combination) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 13/12/2019 09:20, MM wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 21:05:43 +0000, ARW wrote: On 12/12/2019 18:31, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. Ready for the annual bath then? Best take the washing up into the bath with you to save some money. Is this comment supposed to be funny, Mr Troll? MM Troll. Moi? -- Adam |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 09:27:26 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 09:19:24 +0000, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:02:30 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 18:31:00 UTC, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. MM Once it's hot it stops heating it. Sure -- but only for a while, as the temperature will inevitably fall and the boiler will kick in again. If I've had my bath that day, how can I justify having a copper cylinder full of very hot water until the next day? Seems daft to have piping hot water at 3:00 a.m. at night. MM If this hasn't already been said: lag the tank, fit a timer. My heating heats the DHW for a couple of hours in the early morning, and that's it until the following day. Tank stays hot through the day more than sufficient for bedtime ablutions, because it's well lagged. If you need to draw off a lot of hot water later in the day you could always set the timer to give an early evening boost. I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp: The hot water cylinder contains a full amount of piping hot water after one hour on the boiler. I use the water for a bath and washing up. I have no other need for hot water -- apart from the washing machine every 10 days. although the washing machine has its own heater, of course. Therefore there is no need whatsoever to have the boiler constantly firing to bring the cylinder temperature up again if I'm not going to use any more hot water that day. Not only is the volume of hot water sufficient for a bath and the washing up, I'm talking about washing up several times a day, plus washing my hands after using the facilities. I don't have a dish washer. MM |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 10:03:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: On 13/12/2019 09:19, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:02:30 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 18:31:00 UTC, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. MM Once it's hot it stops heating it. Sure -- but only for a while, as the temperature will inevitably fall and the boiler will kick in again. If I've had my bath that day, how can I justify having a copper cylinder full of very hot water until the next day? Seems daft to have piping hot water at 3:00 a.m. at night. By insulationg it? It is insulated, and very efficiently. That's how the one hour's worth of boiler use provides enough hot water until the next day. MM |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
|
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
|
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 14:00:44 +0000, John Rumm
wrote: On 13/12/2019 09:19, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:02:30 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 18:31:00 UTC, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. MM Once it's hot it stops heating it. Sure -- but only for a while, as the temperature will inevitably fall and the boiler will kick in again. If I've had my bath that day, how can I justify having a copper cylinder full of very hot water until the next day? Seems daft to have piping hot water at 3:00 a.m. at night. With good lagging, relatively little heat will be "lost". However also keep in mind where it is lost to - i.e. it ends up leaking into the house in most cases, where it will simply reduce the amount that needs replenishment from the CH at this time of year ans so is mostly cost neutral. It "leaks" upwards (where all heat leaks...) and upwards is the loft, as the airing cupboard is on the first floor. MM |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 13:56:25 -0000, Terry Casey
wrote: In article , says... HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. Ready for the annual bath then? Best take the washing up into the bath with you to save some money. You missed a trick there, Adam! Just been reading this thread out to Helen who pointed out that you forgot about finally using the bath water to flush the loo! Sure, I've done that before, too. Bit of a fag, though. This morning I sat on the plastic toilet seat and it cracked! Made me jump so bad I needed another roll of loo paper... Have used superglue and am leaving it for 24 hours. I'll just have to use the annex toilet instead. It's like wartime! MM |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Sunday, 15 December 2019 11:28:45 UTC, MM wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 03:47:49 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: Even if you switch the system off at bath time you're still going to have a lot of heat in the cylinder overnight. If you care at all about run cost your cylinder should be insulated, in which case there's very little saved by turning the HW off - in winter, approximately nothing, since lost heat effectively does the same job as CH heat. The cylinder IS insulated! On your second point, you're suggesting using the hot water cylinder as a form of central heating when I've got a perfectly well-functioning central system anyway? Of course I'm not. It looks like you're being facetious. |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On 15/12/2019 11:34, MM wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 14:00:44 +0000, John Rumm wrote: On 13/12/2019 09:19, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:02:30 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 18:31:00 UTC, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. MM Once it's hot it stops heating it. Sure -- but only for a while, as the temperature will inevitably fall and the boiler will kick in again. If I've had my bath that day, how can I justify having a copper cylinder full of very hot water until the next day? Seems daft to have piping hot water at 3:00 a.m. at night. With good lagging, relatively little heat will be "lost". However also keep in mind where it is lost to - i.e. it ends up leaking into the house in most cases, where it will simply reduce the amount that needs replenishment from the CH at this time of year ans so is mostly cost neutral. It "leaks" upwards (where all heat leaks...) and upwards is the loft, as the airing cupboard is on the first floor. Sure, do whatever works for you. I only mentioned it since people often get overly concerned about the costs of DHW production, when in reality they are typically dwarfed by the space heating costs. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Help protect 3-port valve by switching off hot water last
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 22:59:43 +0000, John Rumm
wrote: On 15/12/2019 11:34, MM wrote: On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 14:00:44 +0000, John Rumm wrote: On 13/12/2019 09:19, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:02:30 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 18:31:00 UTC, MM wrote: On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:11:06 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 12 December 2019 09:15:48 UTC, MM wrote: My heating engineer, who is very good and always does a good job, fitted a new 3-port valve in the airing cupboard last week. He replaced the Danfoss with a Honeywell. The Danfoss has lasted 15 years. He explained how these valves work and said that it was always better, if possible, to have the hot water switch off AFTER the heating, because this guarantees less wear on the valve due to the way the valve positions itself when the hot water is switched off. Even if one has the central heating on and it is then turned off, it's a good idea to switch on the hot water briefly, even for only 30 seconds, so as to reposition the valve beneficially. MM That ain't right. The 3 position valve's positions are, in this order: HW only (resting position), both on, CH but no HW. So the way to minimise wear is to not turn the HW off at all, jus leave it move between HW and both. But then I'm going to have far more hot water than I know what to do with. One hour with the Wallstar gives me enough water for a hot bath AND the washing-up. MM Once it's hot it stops heating it. Sure -- but only for a while, as the temperature will inevitably fall and the boiler will kick in again. If I've had my bath that day, how can I justify having a copper cylinder full of very hot water until the next day? Seems daft to have piping hot water at 3:00 a.m. at night. With good lagging, relatively little heat will be "lost". However also keep in mind where it is lost to - i.e. it ends up leaking into the house in most cases, where it will simply reduce the amount that needs replenishment from the CH at this time of year ans so is mostly cost neutral. It "leaks" upwards (where all heat leaks...) and upwards is the loft, as the airing cupboard is on the first floor. Sure, do whatever works for you. I only mentioned it since people often get overly concerned about the costs of DHW production, when in reality they are typically dwarfed by the space heating costs. Absolutely. During the summer, when the CH is off, the HW burns a very small amount of oil to get me my tankful of very hot water. The heating oil lasts a very long time. MM |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:14 PM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 DIYbanter