I see Croydon is fitting ground source heat pumps to heat a 44 unit high
rise. Amongst other things, they say it'll cut the costs of maintaining
the current storage heaters.

I thought storage heaters were pretty much maintenance free. And GSHPs
required annual monitoring of their relatively complex electronics and
piping to make sure they continue to work as designed.

Any insights?

--
Cheers, Rob

On 18/10/2019 13:47, RJH wrote:
I see Croydon is fitting ground source heat pumps to heat a 44 unit high
rise. Amongst other things, they say it'll cut the costs of maintaining
the current storage heaters.

I thought storage heaters were pretty much maintenance free. And GSHPs
required annual monitoring of their relatively complex electronics and
piping to make sure they continue to work as designed.

Any insights?


You need an acre or so of land with the proper soil type or
a serious borehole for ground source heat.

The deep tubelines are warm even in the depths of winter. I'm
surprised no-one has tried to harness that for heating. Not that
would help Croydon, the underground doesn't go there.

On 18/10/2019 13:47, RJH wrote:
I see Croydon is fitting ground source heat pumps to heat a 44 unit high
rise. Amongst other things, they say it'll cut the costs of maintaining
the current storage heaters.

I thought storage heaters were pretty much maintenance free. And GSHPs
required annual monitoring of their relatively complex electronics and
piping to make sure they continue to work as designed.

Any insights?



Electric night storage heaters are indeed maintenance free from an
operating point of view and AAFAIAA require no annual safety checks.

As with all electrical installations in public buildings, periodic
checking of the electrical systems is required.

If the nsh's are ancient running repairs may be needed from time to
time. e.g replacement heating elements or thermostats.

The cost of ground source heat pumps and the installation of hot water
pipe and radiator systems will be considerable.

The maintenance costs of the heat pumps is an relatively unknown at
present but in my experience will be more than considerable.

AIUI the main benefits of the scheme is lower running costs for the
tenants and a relative reduction in the Council's carbon footprint.

Am I being thick here, but is not the result of taking heat from the ground
to heat a building going to make the ground cold until it presumably gets so
cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep heating the building?
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"RJH" wrote in message
...
I see Croydon is fitting ground source heat pumps to heat a 44 unit high
rise. Amongst other things, they say it'll cut the costs of maintaining the
current storage heaters.

I thought storage heaters were pretty much maintenance free. And GSHPs
required annual monitoring of their relatively complex electronics and
piping to make sure they continue to work as designed.

Any insights?

--
Cheers, Rob

Yes which is why I mentioned it, unless they have a secret volcano in
Croydon nobody is aware of?
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 18/10/2019 13:47, RJH wrote:
I see Croydon is fitting ground source heat pumps to heat a 44 unit high
rise. Amongst other things, they say it'll cut the costs of maintaining
the current storage heaters.

I thought storage heaters were pretty much maintenance free. And GSHPs
required annual monitoring of their relatively complex electronics and
piping to make sure they continue to work as designed.

Any insights?


You need an acre or so of land with the proper soil type or
a serious borehole for ground source heat.

The deep tubelines are warm even in the depths of winter. I'm
surprised no-one has tried to harness that for heating. Not that
would help Croydon, the underground doesn't go there.

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:30:46 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

Am I being thick here, but is not the result of taking heat from the
ground to heat a building going to make the ground cold until it
presumably gets so cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep
heating the building?
Brian

I think that trying to cool down the Earth would probably require more of
a heat exchanger than a tower block.

You just need to exchange heat over a suitably large area and temperature
gradient.


Cheers


Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Yes its the area, but if you put it under other peoples land that could be
an issue.
Does anyone remember the idea of putting a rock store under your patio when
you put up a conservatory?
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"David" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:30:46 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

Am I being thick here, but is not the result of taking heat from the
ground to heat a building going to make the ground cold until it
presumably gets so cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep
heating the building?
Brian

I think that trying to cool down the Earth would probably require more of
a heat exchanger than a tower block.

You just need to exchange heat over a suitably large area and temperature
gradient.


Cheers


Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Friday, 18 October 2019 15:30:53 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
Am I being thick here, but is not the result of taking heat from the ground
to heat a building going to make the ground cold until it presumably gets so
cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep heating the building?
Brian


The heat is renewed by the sun, rainfall, groundwater and geothermal heat. Depending on how deep the pipes are buried and the nature of the ground.
Around 50m pipe is needed per KW

On 18/10/2019 15:30, Brian Gaff wrote:
Am I being thick here, but is not the result of taking heat from the ground
to heat a building going to make the ground cold until it presumably gets so
cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep heating the building?
Brian

Back in the 1970's the CEGB started research programmes on renewables,
including solar PV, wind, wave, and what was called at the time "hot
rocks". The latter involved drilling reasonably deep bore holes, maybe a
kilometer or two, into known "warm spots", one of which is in the
Southampton area, convenient for the (long gone) Marchwood laboratories
that had the lead in this work. IIRC they were in effect using fracking
to increase the useful heat transfer surface area. They were basically
pumping water down one hole and up another to harvest low grade heat
suitable, I think, for district heating. (Certainly you don't get the
sort of quality of steam that they have in Iceland which will run steam
turbines). I think they might also have been thinking about running
power turbines using gases such as ammonia or methane.

My recollection is that they found they could get about 50 years worth
of useful energy before they had cooled the rocks off significantly.
There is, of course, a fairly uniform temperature gradient of the order
of 30 deg C per km and a heat flux of about 0.1W per square metre.

I think this is why ground source heat pumps are normally associated
with a reasonably sized "field" per house, because they are mainly
collecting solar (and air) heating rather than true geothermal.

It's interesting to speculate that if, some time in the future, we get
small modular reactors that can be sited in urban areas, perhaps heat
pumps could provide sensible district heating from their waste heat. At
least in the domestic market we use something like three times as much
thermal energy as electrical, so it is not a bad match for water
reactors with ~ 30% thermal efficiency (at least in the heating season).

On 18/10/2019 15:38, David wrote:


I think that trying to cool down the Earth would probably require more of
a heat exchanger than a tower block.

As I understand it some badly designed ground sourced systems in the UK
did take too much heat from the ground. The ground will recover but its
how long it takes. A day or two is not enough so as the weather gets
colder and there is more demand on the system the system become less
efficient. Instead of putting 1kWh in to get 5kWh out it starts getting
closer to 1:1.


You just need to exchange heat over a suitably large area and temperature
gradient.

Assuming that the tower block hasn't got enough land to lay the pipes
horizontally then boreholes will be used. 10kWh will require maybe 2 off
100m of boreholes. However this is a 44 unit dwelling requiring many
such boreholes.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 18/10/2019 15:38, David wrote:
On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:30:46 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

Am I being thick here, but is not the result of taking heat from the
ground to heat a building going to make the ground cold until it
presumably gets so cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep
heating the building?
Brian

I think that trying to cool down the Earth would probably require more of
a heat exchanger than a tower block.

You just need to exchange heat over a suitably large area and temperature
gradient.

The way it works is that summer sun heats the earth and winter heat
pumps cool it.
You probably need an area somewhat larger than the total floor area you
are trying to heat...

Cheers


Dave R




--
€œThe ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.€�

Herbert Spencer

On 18/10/2019 16:55, alan_m wrote:
On 18/10/2019 15:38, David wrote:


I think that trying to cool down the Earth would probably require more of
a heat exchanger than a tower block.

As I understand it some badly designed ground sourced systems in the UK
did take too much heat from the ground. The ground will recover but its
how long it takes.Â* A day or two is not enough so as the weather gets
colder and there is more demand on the system the system become less
efficient. Instead of putting 1kWh in to get 5kWh out it starts getting
closer to 1:1.


You just need to exchange heat over a suitably large area and temperature
gradient.

Assuming that the tower block hasn't got enough land to lay the pipes
horizontally then boreholes will be used. 10kWh will require maybe 2 off
100m of boreholes. However this is a 44 unit dwelling requiring many
such boreholes.


The problem with boreholes is that over a period of time the heat is NOT
replenished.

geothermal use of (flooded) mines results in abouyt 10 years before the
mine is too cold to be of use.


--
€œThose who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.€�

€• Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles Ã* M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie Ã* Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

On 18/10/2019 17:21, Chris Hogg wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/yxodfyu6 which hasn't gone to plan because the
drilling hit "a zone of very high water flow" and had to be stopped
(although precisely why that should stop them drilling, I don't
understand. Perhaps they found that all the heat they were hoping to
recover was being carried away elsewhere by the very high water flow).
They're going to have to supplement the heating with GSHP's.


Perhaps there are potential enviroment issues. The greenies are worried
about ground water pollution with fracking but what about when one of
these boreholes gets to an age where it starts failing and releases
whatever fluid/antifreeze they are pumping around the system?

Fast flowing water tens or hundreds of metres underground may be
supplying a local river and any contamination may be seen in the local
waterways almost immediately. Fast flowing underground water may also
indicate unstable ground that may cause a borehole and associated pipes
to shear horizontally.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 18/10/2019 17:59, alan_m wrote:
On 18/10/2019 17:21, Chris Hogg wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/yxodfyu6 which hasn't gone to plan because the
drilling hit "a zone of very high water flow" and had to be stopped
(although precisely why that should stop them drilling, I don't
understand. Perhaps they found that all the heat they were hoping to
recover was being carried away elsewhere by the very high water flow).
They're going to have to supplement the heating with GSHP's.


Perhaps there are potential enviroment issues. The greenies are worried
about ground water pollution with fracking but what about when one of
these boreholes gets to an age where it starts failing and releases
whatever fluid/antifreeze they are pumping around the system?

Please research how fracking works.

Fast flowing water tens or hundreds of metres underground may be
supplying a local river and any contamination may be seen in the local
waterways almost immediately. Fast flowing underground water may also
indicate unstable ground that may cause a borehole and associated pipes
to shear horizontally.



--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 18/10/2019 18:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


Perhaps there are potential enviroment issues. The greenies are
worried about ground water pollution with fracking but what about when
one of these boreholes gets to an age where it starts failing and
releases whatever fluid/antifreeze they are pumping around the system?

Please research how fracking works.

I know how fracking works but I'm not sure how many of the fracking
protesters do.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 18/10/2019 15:43, Brian Gaff wrote:

Does anyone remember the idea of putting a rock store under your patio when
you put up a conservatory?
Brian


Why would anyone want so much rock? It's horribly sticky and it rots
your teeth.

Bill

On 18/10/2019 18:38, alan_m wrote:
On 18/10/2019 18:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


Perhaps there are potential enviroment issues. The greenies are
worried about ground water pollution with fracking but what about
when one of these boreholes gets to an age where it starts failing
and releases whatever fluid/antifreeze they are pumping around the
system?

Please research how fracking works.

I know how fracking works

From the above, it seems you do not

but I'm not sure how many of the fracking
protesters do.

None., Key up theit bottoms wind em up and watch them protect your oil
and gas business from new competition.




--
€œPeople believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, ones
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
ones suitability to be taken seriously.€�

Paul Krugman

Brian Gaff wrote

Am I being thick here,

Yep.

but is not the result of taking heat from the ground to heat a building
going to make the ground cold until it presumably gets so cold no more
heat can get in fast enough to keep heating the building?

Nope, there will always been conduction of heat
from the surrounding ground that avoids that. And
with ground sourced heat pumps you don’t get the
icing up you get with air sourced heat pumps.

Not cheap tho.

"RJH" wrote in message
...
I see Croydon is fitting ground source heat pumps to heat a 44 unit high
rise. Amongst other things, they say it'll cut the costs of maintaining
the current storage heaters.

I thought storage heaters were pretty much maintenance free. And GSHPs
required annual monitoring of their relatively complex electronics and
piping to make sure they continue to work as designed.

Any insights?

--
Cheers, Rob

Brian Gaff wrote

Yes which is why I mentioned it, unless they have a secret volcano in
Croydon nobody is aware of?

Don’t need a volcano, just ground that conducts
heat adequately and a big enough area of collector.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 18/10/2019 13:47, RJH wrote:
I see Croydon is fitting ground source heat pumps to heat a 44 unit high
rise. Amongst other things, they say it'll cut the costs of maintaining
the current storage heaters.

I thought storage heaters were pretty much maintenance free. And GSHPs
required annual monitoring of their relatively complex electronics and
piping to make sure they continue to work as designed.

Any insights?


You need an acre or so of land with the proper soil type or
a serious borehole for ground source heat.

The deep tubelines are warm even in the depths of winter. I'm
surprised no-one has tried to harness that for heating. Not that
would help Croydon, the underground doesn't go there.

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Yes its the area, but if you put it under other peoples land that could be
an issue.
Does anyone remember the idea of putting a rock store under your patio
when you put up a conservatory?

We actually did it with a massive great greenhouse
with solar air heaters and two massive great rock stores.
The problem is that those were quite literally two quite
large rooms full of road metal. Not feasible with the
tiny little houses you lot have.

"David" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:30:46 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

Am I being thick here, but is not the result of taking heat from the
ground to heat a building going to make the ground cold until it
presumably gets so cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep
heating the building?
Brian

I think that trying to cool down the Earth would probably require more of
a heat exchanger than a tower block.

You just need to exchange heat over a suitably large area and temperature
gradient.


Cheers


Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 19/10/2019 06:50, Rod Speed wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote

Am I being thick here,

Yep.

but is not the result of taking heat from the ground to heat a
building going to make the ground cold until it presumably gets so
cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep heating the building?

Nope, there will always been conduction of heat
from the surrounding ground that avoids that. And
with ground sourced heat pumps you don’t get the
icing up you get with air sourced heat pumps.

Not cheap tho.


Solar gain on the site and surroundings is also a significant variable


--
Cheers, Rob

Ahe there is that of course, you need to get the specification right for
heat storage purposes, and then run water pipes through it to take the heat
away.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
On 18/10/2019 15:43, Brian Gaff wrote:

Does anyone remember the idea of putting a rock store under your patio
when
you put up a conservatory?
Brian


Why would anyone want so much rock? It's horribly sticky and it rots your
teeth.

Bill

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 16:52:13 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Yes which is why I mentioned it, unless they have a secret volcano in
Croydon nobody is aware of?

Don¢t need a volcano

****, do you REALLY have NO idea what an asshole you are, senile Rodent?

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 16:55:56 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


We actually did it

Who's that "we" you are constantly hallucinating about, you forsaken senile
pest? Nobody, but nobody, identifies with you or wants anything to do with
you! Not on Usenet and not in real life!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 16:50:41 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Brian Gaff wrote

Am I being thick here,

Yep.

NOBODY is as thick as you are, you clinically insane, nym-shifting,
trolling, senile pest!

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
On 18/10/2019 15:43, Brian Gaff wrote:

Does anyone remember the idea of putting a rock store under your patio
when
you put up a conservatory?
Brian


Why would anyone want so much rock?

Because they are rockers, stupid.

newshound wrote:
On 18/10/2019 15:30, Brian Gaff wrote:
Am I being thick here, but is not the result of taking heat from the ground
to heat a building going to make the ground cold until it presumably gets so
cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep heating the building?
Brian

Back in the 1970's the CEGB started research programmes on renewables,
including solar PV, wind, wave, and what was called at the time "hot
rocks". The latter involved drilling reasonably deep bore holes, maybe a
kilometer or two, into known "warm spots", one of which is in the
Southampton area, convenient for the (long gone) Marchwood laboratories
that had the lead in this work. IIRC they were in effect using fracking
to increase the useful heat transfer surface area. They were basically
pumping water down one hole and up another to harvest low grade heat
suitable, I think, for district heating. (Certainly you don't get the
sort of quality of steam that they have in Iceland which will run steam
turbines). I think they might also have been thinking about running
power turbines using gases such as ammonia or methane.

My recollection is that they found they could get about 50 years worth
of useful energy before they had cooled the rocks off significantly.
There is, of course, a fairly uniform temperature gradient of the order
of 30 deg C per km and a heat flux of about 0.1W per square metre.



Did the CEGB have any input into the scheme apart from that it was a
convenient organisation who had a site
where the borehole could be drilled?
A mate worked there in the labs during that period until the Power station
and labs were closed so I must remember to ask him next week .
I always thought it was the Department of Energy and some European money
that was behind the project.
Neither Marchwood or the Southampton Boreholes produced the expected
results with temperatures much cooler than anticipated due to the level of
where hot water was to be found being hit nearer the surface than expected.
Marchwood was just abandoned .
Southampton well head for many years was left in situ in a small
compound in the middle of the car park that served Toys r Us , it looked
quite comical as there was an information board that bore the information
about this wonderful new technological enterprise but the effect was
destroyed as the well head had been hidden from view by a Six by Four
garden shed of the type that is bought as a flatpack in B and Q and
probably was.

The Department of Energy having given up Southampton City Council stepped
in and restarted the project
and got investment in a company they have an interest in to progress a
district heating scheme which has been running for over 2 decades now.
The hot rather than scalding hot water is augmented by gas to bring it up
to the temperatures needed.

I suppose the finances are a bit like Concordes,the research and
development cost of the borehole having been spent by someone else and
lost using it subsequently because it was there makes the scheme viable to
operate .


GH

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 20:15:48 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Why would anyone want so much rock?

Because they are rockers, stupid.

YOU are CERTAINLY off your rocker, you stupid trolling senile pest from Oz!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 18/10/2019 15:30, Brian Gaff wrote:
Am I being thick here, but is not the result of taking heat from the ground
to heat a building going to make the ground cold until it presumably gets so
cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep heating the building?
Brian

The ground behaves pretty much like an ideal infinite heat sink at
roughly 50F or 10C if you prefer once you go deep enough to avoid
transient weather conditions. Go 1200m straight down and the ambient
temperature is more like 35C. A few places with natural hot springs in
the UK like Bath & Harrogate there is scope to do even better.

I would worry about the maintenance regime that ground source heating
will require. The only people I know who have it have complained
bitterly that it costs much more to run than their old oil fired CH and
involved a lot of disruption to install the ugly bulky low temperature
difference radiators and pipework.

Someone else I know with modern airsource CH is very pleased with it but
they haven't encountered a cold winter yet.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 19/10/2019 13:52, Martin Brown wrote:

I would worry about the maintenance regime that ground source heating
will require. The only people I know who have it have complained
bitterly that it costs much more to run than their old oil fired CH and
involved a lot of disruption to install the ugly bulky low temperature
difference radiators and pipework.

Probably why it is always recommended that the bulky radiators are built
into the floor!

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 19/10/2019 16:15, alan_m wrote:
On 19/10/2019 13:52, Martin Brown wrote:

I would worry about the maintenance regime that ground source heating
will require. The only people I know who have it have complained
bitterly that it costs much more to run than their old oil fired CH
and involved a lot of disruption to install the ugly bulky low
temperature difference radiators and pipework.

Probably why it is always recommended that the bulky radiators are built
into the floor!

I cannot work out why we dont run pipework behind plasterboard walls

Rather than underfloor

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 16:15:28 +0100, alan_m wrote:

I would worry about the maintenance regime that ground source
heating
will require. The only people I know who have it have complained
bitterly that it costs much more to run than their old oil fired
CH and
involved a lot of disruption to install the ugly bulky low
temperature
difference radiators and pipework.

Probably why it is always recommended that the bulky radiators are built
into the floor!

Or have a two stage heat pump and "normal" radiators.

--
Cheers
Dave.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I cannot work out why we dont run pipework behind plasterboard walls
Rather than underfloor

people don't tend to nail pictures and shelves to the floor ...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/10/2019 16:15, alan_m wrote:
On 19/10/2019 13:52, Martin Brown wrote:

I would worry about the maintenance regime that ground source heating
will require. The only people I know who have it have complained
bitterly that it costs much more to run than their old oil fired CH and
involved a lot of disruption to install the ugly bulky low temperature
difference radiators and pipework.

Probably why it is always recommended that the bulky radiators are built
into the floor!

I cannot work out why we dont run pipework behind plasterboard walls

Rather than underfloor

Its a lot harder to do, even with new builds which are a tiny subset of all
houses and flats.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 03:44:54 +1100, ZakJames, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH troll****

Still hunting for ANY feedback you could get, you lonely sleepless senile
asshole troll? You've been quite unlucky, so far! KEEP trying! LOL

--
dennis@home to retarded senile Rot:
"sod off rod you don't have a clue about anything."
Message-ID:

On 19/10/2019 13:52, Martin Brown wrote:
On 18/10/2019 15:30, Brian Gaff wrote:
Am I being thick here, but is not the result of taking heat from the
ground
to heat a building going to make the ground cold until it presumably
gets so
cold no more heat can get in fast enough to keep heating the building?
Â* Brian

The ground behaves pretty much like an ideal infinite heat sink at
roughly 50F or 10C if you prefer once you go deep enough to avoid
transient weather conditions. Go 1200m straight down and the ambient
temperature is more like 35C. A few places with natural hot springs in
the UK like Bath & Harrogate there is scope to do even better.

I would worry about the maintenance regime that ground source heating
will require. The only people I know who have it have complained
bitterly that it costs much more to run than their old oil fired CH and
involved a lot of disruption to install the ugly bulky low temperature
difference radiators and pipework.

Someone else I know with modern airsource CH is very pleased with it but
they haven't encountered a cold winter yet.


With a heat flux of only 0.1 watt per square metre it's not really
infinite, if you keep sucking heat out for long enough. Obviously you
can do much better if you can tap into flowing water from hot springs.

On 19/10/2019 16:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/10/2019 16:15, alan_m wrote:
On 19/10/2019 13:52, Martin Brown wrote:

I would worry about the maintenance regime that ground source heating
will require. The only people I know who have it have complained
bitterly that it costs much more to run than their old oil fired CH
and involved a lot of disruption to install the ugly bulky low
temperature difference radiators and pipework.

Probably why it is always recommended that the bulky radiators are
built into the floor!

I cannot work out why we dont run pipework behind plasterboard walls

Rather than underfloor

They do in new houses.

On 19/10/2019 20:13, Andrew wrote:



They do in new houses.

I doubt if they would drill that many holes through the wood or metal
stud wall frame to run the same amount of pipe required for underfloor
heating.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Martin Brown wrote:

Someone else I know with modern airsource CH is very pleased with it but
they haven't encountered a cold winter yet.

I have worked in offices with such a system as the only heat
source. It appeared to operate quite well through the winter.
There are defrost cycles, during which the mode reverses, in
order to melt frost on the external heat exchanger. This means
that the internal kit blows cool for a while, but not to the
extent that it compromised overall heating performance.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.