Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas day (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received.
If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know currently without
distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break up, SD is OK.

It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be used
once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app for this
for a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up ...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

On 03/01/2019 11:54, rick wrote:
Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas dayÂ* (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received.
If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know currently without
distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break up, SD is OK.

It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be used
once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app for this
for a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up ...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

TBH I found it more useful to use a signal strength calculator.

Start here to determine what transmitter and estimated signal strength

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/coveragechecker/

If you are not in seriously dodgy territory you should be able to get
by without gain

Remember it's not like the days of valves. Low noise front ends able to
pick up and not add to whatever SNR is in the original signal are cheap
and easy to put in any TV.

You should not have to boost HD mux. That suggests you may have a poor
TV AND an aerial that is maybe not tuned to that mux.

With digital, there is no advantage to boosting beyond the point at
which error correction gives you a 100% signal, anyway.




--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

rick wrote:

currently without distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break
up, SD is OK.

And how is HD with the existing amp? If it's OK, I'd stop worrying ...

rick formulated on Thursday :
It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be used once
or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app for this for a Smart
phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up ...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

Not that I am aware of. Most modern TV's include a rough signal
strength meter and signal quality indicator, could you not use that?

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 03/01/2019 11:54, rick wrote:
Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas day (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received.
If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know currently without
distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break up, SD is OK.

It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be used
once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app for this for
a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up ...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

TBH I found it more useful to use a signal strength calculator.

Start here to determine what transmitter and estimated signal strength

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/coveragechecker/

If you are not in seriously dodgy territory you should be able to get by
without gain

Remember it's not like the days of valves. Low noise front ends able to
pick up and not add to whatever SNR is in the original signal are cheap
and easy to put in any TV.

You should not have to boost HD mux. That suggests you may have a poor TV
AND an aerial that is maybe not tuned to that mux.

With digital, there is no advantage to boosting beyond the point at which
error correction gives you a 100% signal, anyway.

Many TVs, PVRs and STBs have a menu somewhere which displays signal strength
and quality, either numerically or as an analogue bar. These allow you to
see if one multiplex is weaker than another. You can't compare numbers (or
the numbers that you estimate from an analogue bar) and say that one is
twice as good as another because the number is twice as big, but you can at
least say that one is bigger than other. I presume "signal quality" is based
on bit error rate - ie how much the error-correction software is having to
correct errors in the received signal.

Remember that multiplexes COM7 and COM8 (if your transmitter provides them -
only the main ones do) are usually/always transmitted on lower power than
many of the others, so will be weaker at the receiver. An aerial+amplifier
than can receive the DVB-T (SD) and PSB3 (BBC/ITV HD) multiplexes might
still struggle to get COM7/8.

Another site that I use for signal strength estimates is
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/Audi...lculator.shtml

You can put in your postcode and then choose either the likeliest
transmitter or force it to one specific one, and see the signal strength and
the profile (whether there are any hills in the way).

Maybe Bill Wright will see this thread and be able to suggest what aerial
and pre-amplifier is needed for a given signal strength as reported by this
site, to determine whether your aerial is OK for the location, and whether a
pre-amp is needed.

My experience where I am now (near Leyburn, getting signal from Bilsdale) is
that a 4-port amplifier is needed for driving three devices (TV and PVR with
daisy-chained aerial, and two DVB-USB adaptors for a PC), and that a pair of
two-port passive splitters, cascaded, is not sufficient. Where we lived
before, getting a stronger signal from Bilsdale and with a different aerial,
the splitter solution was sufficient.

(Given that we have an unused output from the 4-port amplifier, maybe I
should feed the TV and PVR from separate ports rather than daisy-chained
from the same port. Not sure why I've only just thought of that!)

Beware also that some aerial leads are CRAP (to use a technical term). When
we first moved in, I needed to extend the aerial cable to the other side of
the room, and I temporarily used a 10 m cable that I happened to have. I
found that it was very frequency-selective: I could receive some muxes and
not others. The signal strength/quality indicators on the PVR and on my
DVB-USB adaptors corresponded with this observation. Using a shorter length
of cable, strengths were much more similar. I got my local TV shop to make
up some proper leads from good-quality cable. Bill has some information
about god/bad aerial cables on his web site. The crap one was much thinner
diameter than any others, which probably affected its resistance,
capacitance and hence impedance.

In addition, some receivers are more fussy than others. The PVR gives a lot
more pixellation and picture breakup on COM7/8 than the TV or the DVB
adaptors, even using the same port and the same cable. Actually, that PVR is
probably destined for the bin because it's also started failing to record
the whole programme or failing to start at all: sometimes it records for 3
hours when a 1 hour programme has been set, other times it records nothing.

Bill, what's your experience of Echostar PVRs? This is a Echostar
HDT-610R-GB. It is significant that the support website
myechostar.com/support has been hijacked by some Chinese spam site, which
suggests that the company may have ceased trading.

In article ,
rick wrote:
Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas day (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Mine - but a Philex from TLC - did that a couple of months ago. Must be
something in the air. ;-)

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received.
If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know currently without
distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break up, SD is OK.

It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be used
once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app for this
for a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up ...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

Do you not have a TV or PVR that can be made to display signal strength
and quality - perhaps in the menu? Should be good enough for a simple test.

--
*Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/01/2019 13:42, NY wrote:

Bill, what's your experience of Echostar PVRs? This is a Echostar
HDT-610R-GB. It is significant that the support website
myechostar.com/support has been hijacked by some Chinese spam site,
which suggests that the company may have ceased trading.

Apologies, but I have no recent experience of them.

Bill

On Thu, 03 Jan 2019 15:32:52 -0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
rick wrote:
Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas day (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Mine - but a Philex from TLC - did that a couple of months ago. Must be
something in the air. ;-)

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received.
If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know currently without
distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break up, SD is OK.

It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be used
once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app for this
for a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up ...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

Do you not have a TV or PVR that can be made to display signal strength
and quality - perhaps in the menu? Should be good enough for a simple test.

Not even needed. If the picture sux, you need more signal.

On 03/01/2019 11:54, rick wrote:
Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas dayÂ* (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received.
If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know currently without
distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break up, SD is OK.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it! All the channels are being messed
around with over the next few years so I'd just sit and do nothing and
see what happens.

The gain of a distribution amp does little more than compensate for
cable losses.

Without taking actual measurements it's impossible to know just what you
would need to do to increase the resilience of your set-up. However I'd
guess that a low gain (9 or 12dB) masthead amp would be unlikely to do
any harm and would very probably do some good, especially if the cable
length from aerial to dist. amp. is significant. The masthead amp would
have to be at the aerial of course. Don't use an amp with more than 12dB
gain. Ideally, don't use one with adjustable gain.


It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be used
once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app for this
for a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up ...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

I've never heard of such a thing. The 'simple pass through' would
presumably need some sort of UHF detection.

I shouldn't take too much notice of the various signal strength
predictors. They can only give a very approximate idea at best, and are
often completely wrong. There's no substitute for an actual on-site
measurement.

Bill

On 03/01/2019 15:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Do you not have a TV or PVR that can be made to display signal strength
and quality - perhaps in the menu? Should be good enough for a simple
test.

Not even needed.* If the picture sux, you need more signal.

Or less noise. Or a tuner that isn't deaf. Or a filter to remove mobile
phone base station signals.

Bill

On Thu, 03 Jan 2019 16:01:05 -0000, Bill Wright wrote:

On 03/01/2019 15:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Do you not have a TV or PVR that can be made to display signal strength
and quality - perhaps in the menu? Should be good enough for a simple
test.

Not even needed. If the picture sux, you need more signal.

Or less noise.

Noise from what? If you're using decent shielded cable that shouldn't be a problem.

Or a tuner that isn't deaf.

Best to try another telly I guess. Although I've never come across one that is worse at reception than another. Poor reception is always a not good enough aerial, or too long a cable.

Satellite is easier. Since the box supplies 12V DC to power the LNB, you can get amps that fit inline anywhere on the cable that run off that 12V. I fitted a couple at my last place of work, where I'd had to run a Sky cable about 200 metres through the building.

Or a filter to remove mobile phone base station signals.

Never heard of that, mind you the mobile phone signal around here is so ****ing pitiful it couldn't interfere with a fly. I often don't even get "3G" appearing on my phone, it just says "G" or even "E" whatever that is, along with 1 or 2 bars out of 6. It's good enough to usually hear 90% of the words the caller says, although occasionally it decides not to ring, then I get an answerphone message 10 minutes later. I'm in Central Scotland FFS, not the Outer Hebrides!

On Thursday, 3 January 2019 15:58:42 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 03/01/2019 11:54, rick wrote:

Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas dayÂ* (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received.
If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know currently without
distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break up, SD is OK.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it! All the channels are being messed
around with over the next few years so I'd just sit and do nothing and
see what happens.

The gain of a distribution amp does little more than compensate for
cable losses.

Without taking actual measurements it's impossible to know just what you
would need to do to increase the resilience of your set-up. However I'd
guess that a low gain (9 or 12dB) masthead amp would be unlikely to do
any harm and would very probably do some good, especially if the cable
length from aerial to dist. amp. is significant. The masthead amp would
have to be at the aerial of course. Don't use an amp with more than 12dB
gain. Ideally, don't use one with adjustable gain.


It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be used
once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app for this
for a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up ...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

I've never heard of such a thing. The 'simple pass through' would
presumably need some sort of UHF detection.

I shouldn't take too much notice of the various signal strength
predictors. They can only give a very approximate idea at best, and are
often completely wrong. There's no substitute for an actual on-site
measurement.

Bill

Broadcast TV signals are way too high frequency for a smartphone to do anything with.

Chinese signal strength meters are quite cheap. Good quality not at all, but can often get the job done. They don't of course give any clues about interference, multipath signals, signal versus frequency etc, but they will start by checking you've got a signal of about the right strength, and find out where in a system you're losing it.


NT

On 03/01/19 13:42, NY wrote:


Bill, what's your experience of Echostar PVRs? This is a Echostar
HDT-610R-GB. It is significant that the support website
myechostar.com/support has been hijacked by some Chinese spam site, which
suggests that the company may have ceased trading.

I had one 6 years ago. Interesting design - a very small box only a
couple of cm high. It had no fan. After 6 months the hard disk failed
and I returned it to John Lewis. I seem to remember that before that it
worked fairly well, but its tuner wasn't quite as good as the Panasonic
TV's that I had at the time, as its "quality" readings used to vary
rather a lot, while the Panasonic's readings were steady.

--

Jeff

"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 03/01/19 13:42, NY wrote:


Bill, what's your experience of Echostar PVRs? This is a Echostar
HDT-610R-GB. It is significant that the support website
myechostar.com/support has been hijacked by some Chinese spam site, which
suggests that the company may have ceased trading.

I had one 6 years ago. Interesting design - a very small box only a couple
of cm high. It had no fan. After 6 months the hard disk failed and I
returned it to John Lewis. I seem to remember that before that it worked
fairly well, but its tuner wasn't quite as good as the Panasonic TV's
that I had at the time, as its "quality" readings used to vary rather a
lot, while the Panasonic's readings were steady.


Ah, does it use a hard disk? From the absence of noise and the very slim
case, I presumed it wrote to solid state memory rather than spinning disk.

In article ,
wrote:
On Thursday, 3 January 2019 15:58:42 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 03/01/2019 11:54, rick wrote:

Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas day (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received. If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know
currently without distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break
up, SD is OK.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it! All the channels are being messed
around with over the next few years so I'd just sit and do nothing and
see what happens.

The gain of a distribution amp does little more than compensate for
cable losses.

Without taking actual measurements it's impossible to know just what
you would need to do to increase the resilience of your set-up.
However I'd guess that a low gain (9 or 12dB) masthead amp would be
unlikely to do any harm and would very probably do some good,
especially if the cable length from aerial to dist. amp. is
significant. The masthead amp would have to be at the aerial of
course. Don't use an amp with more than 12dB gain. Ideally, don't use
one with adjustable gain.


It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be
used once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app
for this for a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up
...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

I've never heard of such a thing. The 'simple pass through' would
presumably need some sort of UHF detection.

I shouldn't take too much notice of the various signal strength
predictors. They can only give a very approximate idea at best, and are
often completely wrong. There's no substitute for an actual on-site
measurement.

Bill

Broadcast TV signals are way too high frequency for a smartphone to do
anything with.

Oh dear. Even the first mobile phone signal were higher in frequency the
broadcast tv, The problem lies from the probably lack of filters in the
tv. High level mobile phone signals - froma nearby mast (for instance)
can overload the front end of the tv set.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 03/01/19 17:37, NY wrote:
"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 03/01/19 13:42, NY wrote:


Bill, what's your experience of Echostar PVRs? This is a Echostar
HDT-610R-GB. It is significant that the support website
myechostar.com/support has been hijacked by some Chinese spam site, which
suggests that the company may have ceased trading.

I had one 6 years ago. Interesting design - a very small box only a couple
of cm high. It had no fan. After 6 months the hard disk failed and I
returned it to John Lewis. I seem to remember that before that it worked
fairly well, but its tuner wasn't quite as good as the Panasonic TV's
that I had at the time, as its "quality" readings used to vary rather a
lot, while the Panasonic's readings were steady.


Ah, does it use a hard disk? From the absence of noise and the very slim
case, I presumed it wrote to solid state memory rather than spinning disk.

Oh, definitely a 500Gb hard disk. When mine died, I got the "click of
death" - not something I'd ever associate with a solid state memory! :-)

--

Jeff

On 03/01/2019 16:11, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Not even needed.* If the picture sux, you need more signal.

Or less noise.

Noise from what?* If you're using decent shielded cable that shouldn't
be a problem.

Anything the cable can pick up the aerial can pick up. But the aerial is
designed to pick up and the cable is designed to not pick up so the
aerial will pick up more. Sit on a roof in a city with an analyser and
an aerial and you'd be surprised at the noise floor.


Or a tuner that isn't deaf.

Best to try another telly I guess.

Yes. Before you look for 'more signal'. But see below.

Although I've never come across one
that is worse at reception than another.

I'd say a variation between TVs sets and between PVRs is the norm.
Frequently customers say, "We have to watch some channels through the
recorder because the telly is like the side of a container ship* on them
channels."

*blocky.

Poor reception is always a not
good enough aerial, or too long a cable.

The first thing a good aerial man will do when called to a telly with
poor reception is check the signal levels. Quite often they are better
than the TV set's reception is suggesting. It's a judgement call whether
to increase signal levels or advise a new telly. With deaf tellys a
simple set-back amp can be a cheap fix.

Since we do a lot of work in multi-occupier buildings we are very aware
that residents' tellys are a factor when diagnosing poor reception.

Or a filter to remove mobile phone base station signals.

Never heard of that

Maybe I imagined it then. I'm off to get a drink now.

Bill

On 03/01/2019 16:58, wrote:

Chinese signal strength meters are quite cheap. Good quality not at all, but can often get the job done. They don't of course give any clues about interference, multipath signals, signal versus frequency etc, but they will start by checking you've got a signal of about the right strength, and find out where in a system you're losing it.

For that matter, look at 'Fringe' products.

Bill

On Thu, 03 Jan 2019 20:48:24 -0000, Bill Wright wrote:

On 03/01/2019 16:11, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Not even needed. If the picture sux, you need more signal.

Or less noise.

Noise from what? If you're using decent shielded cable that shouldn't
be a problem.

Anything the cable can pick up the aerial can pick up. But the aerial is
designed to pick up and the cable is designed to not pick up so the
aerial will pick up more. Sit on a roof in a city with an analyser and
an aerial and you'd be surprised at the noise floor.

Shouldn't any noise be at a different frequency, so ignored by the receiver in the TV?

Or a tuner that isn't deaf.

Best to try another telly I guess.

Yes. Before you look for 'more signal'. But see below.

Although I've never come across one
that is worse at reception than another.

I'd say a variation between TVs sets and between PVRs is the norm.
Frequently customers say, "We have to watch some channels through the
recorder because the telly is like the side of a container ship* on them
channels."

*blocky.

I'm glad that since digital was invented I've stuck mainly to dishes. Way less problems when you're only picking up from one very specific direction.

Poor reception is always a not good enough aerial, or too long a cable.

The first thing a good aerial man will do when called to a telly with
poor reception is check the signal levels. Quite often they are better
than the TV set's reception is suggesting. It's a judgement call whether
to increase signal levels or advise a new telly. With deaf tellys a
simple set-back amp can be a cheap fix.

On a Sky box, it has two readings - "strength" and "quality". I assume noise puts the quality down but leaves the strength up.

Since we do a lot of work in multi-occupier buildings we are very aware
that residents' tellys are a factor when diagnosing poor reception.

Or a filter to remove mobile phone base station signals.

Never heard of that

Maybe I imagined it then. I'm off to get a drink now.

You presumably live in a more built up area than me, where they've actually got enough mobile transmitters to be able to use mobiles properly. To make a call, you'll often see me waving the bloody thing around and standing on tall objects tying to get a lock first.

On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 20:48:24 +0000, Bill Wright, another mentally challenged,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:


Anything the cable can pick up the aerial can pick up.

All I see is you picking up any bait the retarded Scottish attention whore
sets out for you, in typical senile manner! BG

On 03/01/2019 21:18, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Anything the cable can pick up the aerial can pick up. But the aerial is
designed to pick up and the cable is designed to not pick up so the
aerial will pick up more. Sit on a roof in a city with an analyser and
an aerial and you'd be surprised at the noise floor.

Shouldn't any noise be at a different frequency, so ignored by the
receiver in the TV?

Noise can be at any frequency. Usually when there's a noisy background
(if that's what I can call it) that could well emanate from a
multiplicity of sources the noise power will be wideband. It won't
necessarily be equal across any given frequency band, but it will
normally be continuous across the band. This means that some of it will
be within the bandwidth of the signal we are attempting to receive and
decode. If we are very unlucky it will peak within the bandwidth of the
signal.

A very small part of the noise floor is 'cosmic noise', about which we
can do nothing.

Normally the biggest source of noise in a receiving system is the first
active device the signal encounters in the system.

Remember that the level of the noise and the level of the signal aren't
important; it's the ratio between the two that matters. Once that ratio
is set no amount of amplification will improve reception.

I'm glad that since digital was invented I've stuck mainly to dishes.
Way less problems when you're only picking up from one very specific
direction.

Yes, I've always thought satellite was much easier than terrestrial.

Poor reception is always a not good enough aerial, or too long a cable.

The first thing a good aerial man will do when called to a telly with
poor reception is check the signal levels. Quite often they are better
than the TV set's reception is suggesting. It's a judgement call whether
to increase signal levels or advise a new telly. With deaf tellys a
simple set-back amp can be a cheap fix.

On a Sky box, it has two readings - "strength" and "quality".* I assume
noise puts the quality down but leaves the strength up.

Yes. Remember that the signal has already been amplified by about 50dB
by the LNB, so the signal/noise ratio is set. The 'strength' reading is
really not much more that a vague comment about the LNB gain and the
length of the feeder cable.

Satellite receiver noise is not normally an issue. The LNB output is
about 30dB above the point where receiver noise becomes important
(feeder loss might be 10dB). By 'receiver noise' I mean the unavoidable
noise generated in the tuner. A faulty PSU etc can generate a lot of noise.

Bill

On 04/01/2019 02:35, Bill Wright wrote:
On 03/01/2019 21:18, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Anything the cable can pick up the aerial can pick up. But the aerial is
designed to pick up and the cable is designed to not pick up so the
aerial will pick up more. Sit on a roof in a city with an analyser and
an aerial and you'd be surprised at the noise floor.

Shouldn't any noise be at a different frequency, so ignored by the
receiver in the TV?

Noise can be at any frequency. Usually when there's a noisy background
(if that's what I can call it) that could well emanate from a
multiplicity of sources the noise power will be wideband. It won't
necessarily be equal across any given frequency band, but it will
normally be continuous across the band. This means that some of it will
be within the bandwidth of the signal we are attempting to receive and
decode. If we are very unlucky it will peak within the bandwidth of the
signal.

A very small part of the noise floor is 'cosmic noise', about which we
can do nothing.

Normally the biggest source of noise in a receiving system is the first
active device the signal encounters in the system.

Remember that the level of the noise and the level of the signal aren't
important; it's the ratio between the two that matters. Once that ratio
is set no amount of amplification will improve reception.

I'm glad that since digital was invented I've stuck mainly to dishes.
Way less problems when you're only picking up from one very specific
direction.

Yes, I've always thought satellite was much easier than terrestrial.

Poor reception is always a not good enough aerial, or too long a cable.

The first thing a good aerial man will do when called to a telly with
poor reception is check the signal levels. Quite often they are better
than the TV set's reception is suggesting. It's a judgement call whether
to increase signal levels or advise a new telly. With deaf tellys a
simple set-back amp can be a cheap fix.

On a Sky box, it has two readings - "strength" and "quality".Â* I
assume noise puts the quality down but leaves the strength up.

Yes. Remember that the signal has already been amplified by about 50dB
by the LNB, so the signal/noise ratio is set. The 'strength' reading is
really not much more that a vague comment about the LNB gain and the
length of the feeder cable.

Satellite receiver noise is not normally an issue. The LNB output is
about 30dB above the point where receiver noise becomes important
(feeder loss might be 10dB). By 'receiver noise' I mean the unavoidable
noise generated in the tuner. A faulty PSU etc can generate a lot of noise.

Bill

Looks like you done yer homework Bill.

Endorse everything you said




--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

Irony of a thread being hijacked and the site of the hijacked device has
been hijacked has not passed me by! :-)
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 03/01/19 13:42, NY wrote:


Bill, what's your experience of Echostar PVRs? This is a Echostar
HDT-610R-GB. It is significant that the support website
myechostar.com/support has been hijacked by some Chinese spam site, which
suggests that the company may have ceased trading.

I had one 6 years ago. Interesting design - a very small box only a couple
of cm high. It had no fan. After 6 months the hard disk failed and I
returned it to John Lewis. I seem to remember that before that it worked
fairly well, but its tuner wasn't quite as good as the Panasonic TV's
that I had at the time, as its "quality" readings used to vary rather a
lot, while the Panasonic's readings were steady.

--

Jeff

I blame these bloomin Internet plug adaptor things putting RF down the mains
for trashing most devices like this, myself.
Brian

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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
rick wrote:
Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas day (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Mine - but a Philex from TLC - did that a couple of months ago. Must be
something in the air. ;-)

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received.
If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know currently without
distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break up, SD is OK.

It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be used
once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app for this
for a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up ...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

Do you not have a TV or PVR that can be made to display signal strength
and quality - perhaps in the menu? Should be good enough for a simple
test.

--
*Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Or less signal if its cross mod or overload.
Brian

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"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 03 Jan 2019 15:32:52 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
rick wrote:
Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas day (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Mine - but a Philex from TLC - did that a couple of months ago. Must be
something in the air. ;-)

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received.
If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know currently without
distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break up, SD is OK.

It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be used
once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app for this
for a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up ...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

Do you not have a TV or PVR that can be made to display signal strength
and quality - perhaps in the menu? Should be good enough for a simple
test.

Not even needed. If the picture sux, you need more signal.

On 04/01/2019 06:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Looks like you done yer homework Bill.

Endorse everything you said



Thank you.

Bill

On 04/01/2019 08:32, Brian Gaff wrote:
Or less signal if its cross mod or overload.
Brian


Yes, although with DTT, signal overload seems to be much less of a
problem than it was with analogue. I cam hypothesise why.

Bill

On Thursday, 3 January 2019 18:53:49 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 3 January 2019 15:58:42 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 03/01/2019 11:54, rick wrote:

Had my Antiference distribution amp blow on Xmas day (poor timing)
Replaced now with a Labgear version ...

Was thinking this over, I have no idea what strength signal is being
received. If it is low I could then add a pre-amp, all I know
currently without distribution amp (10dB gain) the HD channel break
up, SD is OK.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it! All the channels are being messed
around with over the next few years so I'd just sit and do nothing and
see what happens.

The gain of a distribution amp does little more than compensate for
cable losses.

Without taking actual measurements it's impossible to know just what
you would need to do to increase the resilience of your set-up.
However I'd guess that a low gain (9 or 12dB) masthead amp would be
unlikely to do any harm and would very probably do some good,
especially if the cable length from aerial to dist. amp. is
significant. The masthead amp would have to be at the aerial of
course. Don't use an amp with more than 12dB gain. Ideally, don't use
one with adjustable gain.


It would be a waste to buy a UHF signal meter that may only ever be
used once or twice ... then realised that 'maybe' there is an app
for this for a Smart phone with a simple CT100 pass through pick up
...

Anybody know if such a thing exists.

I've never heard of such a thing. The 'simple pass through' would
presumably need some sort of UHF detection.

I shouldn't take too much notice of the various signal strength
predictors. They can only give a very approximate idea at best, and are
often completely wrong. There's no substitute for an actual on-site
measurement.

Bill

Broadcast TV signals are way too high frequency for a smartphone to do
anything with.

Oh dear. Even the first mobile phone signal were higher in frequency the
broadcast tv, The problem lies from the probably lack of filters in the
tv. High level mobile phone signals - froma nearby mast (for instance)
can overload the front end of the tv set.

I see you've failed to understand the situation. Mobile phone rf front ends are not busy receiving TV broadcast frequencies, so the phone is't going to measure them.

Nor can a 1GHz CPU process broadcast frequecies in the approximate region of 1GHz. Obviously it can process the lower frequency data that results when rf is demodulated, but since it's not receiving the TV broadcast frequencies there is no TV data to even look at.


NT

wrote:

Broadcast TV signals are way too high frequency for a smartphone to do anything with.

mobiles use signals on 800MHz frequencies previously occupied by TV,
also mobile phones operate as SDRs, so if they *wanted* to the chipsets
could potentially decode DVB-T ... but I wouldn't hold your breath.

On 04/01/2019 15:22, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

Broadcast TV signals are way too high frequency for a smartphone to do
anything with.

mobiles use signals on 800MHz frequencies previously occupied by TV,
also mobile phones operate as SDRs, so if they *wanted* to the chipsets
could potentially decode DVB-T ... but I wouldn't hold your breath.

ITYWF its 900 Mhz or 1.8Ghz.

In the UK

I dont think TV everr went that high


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

mobiles use signals on 800MHz frequencies previously occupied by TV,
also mobile phones operate as SDRs, so if they *wanted* to the
chipsets could potentially decode DVB-T ... but I wouldn't hold your
breath.

ITYWF its 900 Mhz or 1.8Ghz.

Those are the original GSM (and PCS) 2G frequencies, All the TV channel
changes pre-DSO were about clearing 800Hz for 4G use.

https://at800.tv

They also started clearing the 700MHz block two years ago, hence more
re-tunes

In the UK
I dont think TV everr went that high

UHF68 about 850MHz

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/01/2019 15:22, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

Broadcast TV signals are way too high frequency for a smartphone to do
anything with.

mobiles use signals on 800MHz frequencies previously occupied by TV,
also mobile phones operate as SDRs, so if they *wanted* to the chipsets
could potentially decode DVB-T ... but I wouldn't hold your breath.

ITYWF its 900 Mhz or 1.8Ghz.

In the UK

I dont think TV everr went that high

uhf channel 68 - the highest - was 847MHz

However the top of the uhf broadcast band has been taken for mobile prones

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 04/01/2019 17:15, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

mobiles use signals on 800MHz frequencies previously occupied by TV,
also mobile phones operate as SDRs, so if they *wanted* to the
chipsets could potentially decode DVB-T ... but I wouldn't hold your
breath.

ITYWF its 900 Mhz or 1.8Ghz.

Those are the original GSM (and PCS) 2G frequencies, All the TV channel
changes pre-DSO were about clearing 800Hz for 4G use.

https://at800.tv

Ah. Post my time.


They also started clearing the 700MHz block two years ago, hence more
re-tunes

In the UK
I dont think TV ever went that high

UHF68 about 850MHz

I meant as high as 900.

I thiubk sopme of my muxes are on 68...oh. no. they have moved them to
29-47 range


MMM.. 4G is quite powerful and so will a local phone be. Time for a
sharp cutoff/notch filter methinks


--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

Doesn't cross mod only happen with a busted receiver? It shouldn't be picking up anything other than the tuned channel.

And why would you get overload with just a plain aerial?


On Fri, 04 Jan 2019 08:32:24 -0000, Brian Gaff wrote:

Or less signal if its cross mod or overload.
Brian

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
Ah, does it use a hard disk? From the absence of noise and the very
slim case, I presumed it wrote to solid state memory rather than
spinning disk.

Oh, definitely a 500Gb hard disk. When mine died, I got the "click of
death" - not something I'd ever associate with a solid state memory! :-)

I'd guess a SS memory would push the price up too far at the moment. My
recently bought Humax has 2Tb.

--
*No hand signals. Driver on Viagra*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 04 Jan 2019 02:35:47 -0000, Bill Wright wrote:

On 03/01/2019 21:18, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Anything the cable can pick up the aerial can pick up. But the aerial is
designed to pick up and the cable is designed to not pick up so the
aerial will pick up more. Sit on a roof in a city with an analyser and
an aerial and you'd be surprised at the noise floor.

Shouldn't any noise be at a different frequency, so ignored by the
receiver in the TV?

Noise can be at any frequency. Usually when there's a noisy background
(if that's what I can call it) that could well emanate from a
multiplicity of sources the noise power will be wideband. It won't
necessarily be equal across any given frequency band, but it will
normally be continuous across the band. This means that some of it will
be within the bandwidth of the signal we are attempting to receive and
decode. If we are very unlucky it will peak within the bandwidth of the
signal.

A very small part of the noise floor is 'cosmic noise', about which we
can do nothing.

Normally the biggest source of noise in a receiving system is the first
active device the signal encounters in the system.

Remember that the level of the noise and the level of the signal aren't
important; it's the ratio between the two that matters. Once that ratio
is set no amount of amplification will improve reception.

But if the noise is generated inside the TV receiver, or in the wire from aerial to TV, and you amplify the signal before that point, you improve the ratio?

I'm glad that since digital was invented I've stuck mainly to dishes.
Way less problems when you're only picking up from one very specific
direction.

Yes, I've always thought satellite was much easier than terrestrial.

Must cost a lot to put those things up there though. Not sure how much when compared with the income of the TV companies.

Poor reception is always a not good enough aerial, or too long a cable.

The first thing a good aerial man will do when called to a telly with
poor reception is check the signal levels. Quite often they are better
than the TV set's reception is suggesting. It's a judgement call whether
to increase signal levels or advise a new telly. With deaf tellys a
simple set-back amp can be a cheap fix.

On a Sky box, it has two readings - "strength" and "quality". I assume
noise puts the quality down but leaves the strength up.

Yes. Remember that the signal has already been amplified by about 50dB
by the LNB, so the signal/noise ratio is set. The 'strength' reading is
really not much more that a vague comment about the LNB gain and the
length of the feeder cable.

Satellite receiver noise is not normally an issue. The LNB output is
about 30dB above the point where receiver noise becomes important
(feeder loss might be 10dB). By 'receiver noise' I mean the unavoidable
noise generated in the tuner. A faulty PSU etc can generate a lot of noise.

I usually see both readings on the Sky box go down if the cable is too long. Adding an inline amp somewhere along the cable helps - usually at the point where I think the signal is becoming weak - put it too early and you overload things.

On 04/01/2019 18:26, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Satellite receiver noise is not normally an issue. The LNB output is
about 30dB above the point where receiver noise becomes important
(feeder loss might be 10dB). By 'receiver noise' I mean the unavoidable
noise generated in the tuner. A faulty PSU etc can generate a lot of
noise.

I usually see both readings on the Sky box go down if the cable is too
long.* Adding an inline amp somewhere along the cable helps - usually at
the point where I think the signal is becoming weak - put it too early
and you overload things.

How long are the cables, and what sort of cable?

Bill

On 04/01/2019 18:15, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Doesn't cross mod only happen with a busted receiver?* It shouldn't be
picking up anything other than the tuned channel.

Irrespective of the precise design of the front end, domestic receivers
will always suffer cross-mod when a very strong signal is applied.
Nothing is perfect, especially when built to a price.

There's also inter-mod. This rears its ugly head in a single channel amp
that is overloaded.


And why would you get overload with just a plain aerial?

Why not? If you're close enough the signal levels can easily be excessive.

Bill

On Fri, 04 Jan 2019 20:38:59 -0000, Bill Wright wrote:

On 04/01/2019 18:26, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Satellite receiver noise is not normally an issue. The LNB output is
about 30dB above the point where receiver noise becomes important
(feeder loss might be 10dB). By 'receiver noise' I mean the unavoidable
noise generated in the tuner. A faulty PSU etc can generate a lot of
noise.

I usually see both readings on the Sky box go down if the cable is too
long. Adding an inline amp somewhere along the cable helps - usually at
the point where I think the signal is becoming weak - put it too early
and you overload things.

How long are the cables, and what sort of cable?

Standard Sky cable, 200 metres.

On Fri, 04 Jan 2019 20:49:37 -0000, Bill Wright wrote:

On 04/01/2019 18:15, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Doesn't cross mod only happen with a busted receiver? It shouldn't be
picking up anything other than the tuned channel.

Irrespective of the precise design of the front end, domestic receivers
will always suffer cross-mod when a very strong signal is applied.
Nothing is perfect, especially when built to a price.

There's also inter-mod. This rears its ugly head in a single channel amp
that is overloaded.


And why would you get overload with just a plain aerial?

Why not? If you're close enough the signal levels can easily be excessive.

I've never experienced that. Usually the problem is you're miles from the nearest transmitter, or there's something in the way (TM Nirvana). Mobile phones are absolutely terrible for this, presumably due to higher frequencies that don't travel so far or round corners so easily.