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Unearthed IEC lead.
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message ... I think the point is though, without some indication to the user, we all keep a box of these leads from old devices and when we need one, maybe a little longer we just fish one out. If they are not going to be all containing an earth wire and do not show a plastic earth pin like a wall wart, how would the user know? By having no hole for an earth pin on the appliance end, so it couldnt be plugged in at appliance end if the appliance has an earth pin there. "The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... On 17/08/18 11:19, Clive Arthur wrote: I've just cut a bog standard IEC power lead with moulded plugs so I can shorten it. There is no earth wire, and no indication that there is no earth wire. I'm aware that most things don't use the earth, but can this be legal? Cheers it is unless used in an appliance with a metal chassis that is connected to IEE socket earth... -- To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote. |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On Sat, 18 Aug 2018 05:51:01 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again: I think the point is though, without some indication to the user, we all keep a box of these leads from old devices and when we need one, maybe a little longer we just fish one out. If they are not going to be all containing an earth wire and do not show a plastic earth pin like a wall wart, how would the user know? By having no hole for an earth pin on the appliance end, so it couldnąt be plugged in at appliance end if the appliance has an earth pin there. You'd better worry about that big hole in your head, senile Ozzie cetin! -- Bill Wright to Rot Speed: "That confirms my opinion that you are a despicable little ****." MID: |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On 17/08/2018 14:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Andy Burns wrote: Dave Plowman wrote: Clive Arthur wrote: Looking at the cable, it does say, among other things, 'KEMA-KEUR 300/300V 2X0.75mm2' Think the regs have changed since such leads became common. All the ones I've seen these days are capable of the full rated current of the connector, regardless of how little the appliance uses. With 0.7mm^2 cable, it's probably (hopefully?) only a 5A fuse in the plug. Aren't all flexes fitted to a 13 amp plug meant to be able to blow even a 13 amp fuse in event of a short? But not necessarily handle the full 13 amps long term? Could be instructive to do some sums... If one takes the max ELI for a circuit protected by a B32 MCB as 1.44 ohms (that's the 17th edition figure before it was slightly reduced by the Cmin reductions in amendment 3). Also lets assume the resistance of a 0.7mm^2 cable is in the order of 26 mOhms/m (1.0mm^2 CSA has a tabulated value of 18.10 mOhm/m). We can add a further 46 mOhms to the circuit total. That gets us a ELI with a fault at the end of the lead of 1.49 Ohms. Our prospective fault current will therefore be 230 / 1.49 = 154A That is slightly shy of the 160A needed for a "instant" trip on the MCB, http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...e-MCBTypeB.png so let's look at the fuse: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/d/d...FusingTime.png That looks well below the 0.1 sec time on that. So lets take a pessimistic worst case of 0.1 secs. So the remaining question is what size conductor is required to carry 154A for 0.1 sec? If we assume PVC insulation hence a k factor of 115 we get: sqrt( 154^2 x 0.1 ) / 115 = 0.42 mm^2 So we can conclude that the flex will withstand that current for long enough to blow the plug fuse. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On 17/08/2018 13:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Clive Arthur wrote: I've just cut a bog standard IEC power lead with moulded plugs so I can shorten it. There is no earth wire, and no indication that there is no earth wire. I'm aware that most things don't use the earth, but can this be legal? Not uncommon, but pretty obvious as most usually flat, rather than round, cable. Why wouldn't it be legal? It would fail PAT. Up to the user to select the correct one for a job. In other words, use the supplied lead. Probably expecting a little too much from your average user! -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Unearthed IEC lead.
In article ,
John Rumm wrote: That looks well below the 0.1 sec time on that. So lets take a pessimistic worst case of 0.1 secs. So the remaining question is what size conductor is required to carry 154A for 0.1 sec? If we assume PVC insulation hence a k factor of 115 we get: sqrt( 154^2 x 0.1 ) / 115 = 0.42 mm^2 So we can conclude that the flex will withstand that current for long enough to blow the plug fuse. Oddly, had a plug fuse blow the other day due to a short (don't ask) ;-) Took the MCB too. -- *What was the best thing before sliced bread? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On 19/08/2018 15:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , John Rumm wrote: That looks well below the 0.1 sec time on that. So lets take a pessimistic worst case of 0.1 secs. So the remaining question is what size conductor is required to carry 154A for 0.1 sec? If we assume PVC insulation hence a k factor of 115 we get: sqrt( 154^2 x 0.1 ) / 115 = 0.42 mm^2 So we can conclude that the flex will withstand that current for long enough to blow the plug fuse. Oddly, had a plug fuse blow the other day due to a short (don't ask) ;-) Took the MCB too. Even with that borderline example its close to the instant trip current on the MCB. A shorter circuit, and it could easily get 160A of PSCC The interesting ones are when it takes out the MCB but not the fuse, or as ISTR Adam posting one, taking out the main incomer fuse, but not the 13A fuse, or the MCB! -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On Friday, 17 August 2018 18:09:42 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article , whisky-dave wrote: On Friday, 17 August 2018 16:17:01 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote: On 17/08/2018 15:10, whisky-dave wrote: On Friday, 17 August 2018 14:06:50 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote: On 17/08/2018 13:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Clive Arthur wrote: I've just cut a bog standard IEC power lead with moulded plugs so I can shorten it. There is no earth wire, and no indication that there is no earth wire. I'm aware that most things don't use the earth, but can this be legal? Not uncommon, but pretty obvious as most usually flat, rather than round, cable. Why wouldn't it be legal? Up to the user to select the correct one for a job. In other words, use the supplied lead. Because it's a 13A plug to three pin IEC C13 socket. What would be wrong with that lead ? It has no earth and may be used on equipment where an earth is required. I thought all C13 plugs on equipment required an earth as default. Anything that doesn't need an earth uses one of those figure of 8 cable sockets/plugs. Most of our monitors have a C13 and most equipment does too. I'm not sure a C13 IEC lead/cable would pass a PAT test if given one. I've just pulled one out of my box of leads in the lab. three pin IEC C13 socket rated at 10 ams 250V cable I'm unsure of cable but it says 0.75mm^2 The 3 pins mains plug is the standard 13amp type with a 5amp fuse fitted. A label around the cable says BS 1362 complient AIUI, BS1362 is for fuses. approved by ASTA to BS 1362 exact wording Yes difficult to get a sticky label around a fuse and the bottom of the label says' " warning-this appliance must be earthed" in shouty capitals :-) AS I said I would not use an IEC lead that wasn't earthed UNLESS that lead came with the equipment and was meant to be used with that equipment not earthed. Passed safety test in feb 2017 re-test date feb 2018. Do you mean it passed a PAT test? I'm no mains lead expert, but surely that can't be right? We have a company come in and test things and they put stickers on. We are told we must not use anything that hasn't been PAT tested unless it is new and less than a year old. I've tested brand new stuff and failed it. That isn't our problem it's why we only buy such things from reputable suppliers and why ebay is avioded. And we don't normlly buy second hand either or sell our equipment on, we don't even like giving it away to schools, when we have in the past we've always had it PAT tested before giving it away. |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On Friday, 17 August 2018 18:09:43 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article , whisky-dave wrote: On Friday, 17 August 2018 17:01:38 UTC+1, charles wrote: In article , Clive Arthur wrote: On 17/08/2018 15:10, whisky-dave wrote: On Friday, 17 August 2018 14:06:50 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote: On 17/08/2018 13:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Clive Arthur wrote: I've just cut a bog standard IEC power lead with moulded plugs so I can shorten it. There is no earth wire, and no indication that there is no earth wire. I'm aware that most things don't use the earth, but can this be legal? Not uncommon, but pretty obvious as most usually flat, rather than round, cable. Why wouldn't it be legal? Up to the user to select the correct one for a job. In other words, use the supplied lead. Because it's a 13A plug to three pin IEC C13 socket. What would be wrong with that lead ? It has no earth and may be used on equipment where an earth is required. I've just pulled one out of my box of leads in the lab. three pin IEC C13 socket rated at 10 ams 250V cable I'm unsure of cable but it says 0.75mm^2 The 3 pins mains plug is the standard 13amp type with a 5amp fuse fitted. A label around the cable says BS 1362 complient AIUI, BS1362 is for fuses. Passed safety test in feb 2017 re-test date feb 2018. Do you mean it passed a PAT test? I'm no mains lead expert, but surely that can't be right? Interestingly, my PAT tester has a fixed plug for testing IEC leads Whats a fixed plug ? a plug (with pins on it) mounted on the front panel eg CPC part no CN08406 I don't think that would be allowed under H&S you shouldn't have live pins like that on any unit. Well there wasnt; in the PAT testers I've see, what they do have is apadpters that you use on the IEC socket on the PAT tester. |
Unearthed IEC lead.
whisky-dave wrote:
charles wrote: CPC part no CN08406 I don't think that would be allowed under H&S you shouldn't have live pins like that on any unit. It's an inlet, if it was the opposite gender, the trailing lead would have to have live pins ... |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On Monday, 20 August 2018 11:43:23 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
whisky-dave wrote: charles wrote: CPC part no CN08406 I don't think that would be allowed under H&S you shouldn't have live pins like that on any unit. It's an inlet, if it was the opposite gender, the trailing lead would have to have live pins ... Yes and inlet the 3 pin socket is used to plug in an IEC lead the socket end of that lead plugs into a socket on the PAT tester. The Pins DO NOT/should NOT supply voltage in a IEC lead and I don;t see such things being called fixed plugs and that is why I asked what a fixed plug is. |
Unearthed IEC lead.
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote: On Friday, 17 August 2018 18:09:43 UTC+1, charles wrote: In article , whisky-dave wrote: On Friday, 17 August 2018 17:01:38 UTC+1, charles wrote: In article , Clive Arthur wrote: On 17/08/2018 15:10, whisky-dave wrote: On Friday, 17 August 2018 14:06:50 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote: On 17/08/2018 13:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Clive Arthur wrote: I've just cut a bog standard IEC power lead with moulded plugs so I can shorten it. There is no earth wire, and no indication that there is no earth wire. I'm aware that most things don't use the earth, but can this be legal? Not uncommon, but pretty obvious as most usually flat, rather than round, cable. Why wouldn't it be legal? Up to the user to select the correct one for a job. In other words, use the supplied lead. Because it's a 13A plug to three pin IEC C13 socket. What would be wrong with that lead ? It has no earth and may be used on equipment where an earth is required. I've just pulled one out of my box of leads in the lab. three pin IEC C13 socket rated at 10 ams 250V cable I'm unsure of cable but it says 0.75mm^2 The 3 pins mains plug is the standard 13amp type with a 5amp fuse fitted. A label around the cable says BS 1362 complient AIUI, BS1362 is for fuses. Passed safety test in feb 2017 re-test date feb 2018. Do you mean it passed a PAT test? I'm no mains lead expert, but surely that can't be right? Interestingly, my PAT tester has a fixed plug for testing IEC leads Whats a fixed plug ? a plug (with pins on it) mounted on the front panel eg CPC part no CN08406 I don't think that would be allowed under H&S you shouldn't have live pins like that on any unit. Well there wasnt; in the PAT testers I've see, what they do have is apadpters that you use on the IEC socket on the PAT tester. They aren't LIVE pins, they're where the live free socket is plugged in to. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
Unearthed IEC lead.
whisky-dave wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: It's an inlet, if it was the opposite gender, the trailing lead would have to have live pins ... Yes and inlet the 3 pin socket is used to plug in an IEC lead the socket end of that lead plugs into a socket on the PAT tester. The Pins DO NOT/should NOT supply voltage in a IEC lead and Presumably the PAT tester supplies voltage to a 13A socket, and a 13A-C13 lead under test is 'looped' back to the C14 inlet, so the tester can check continuity? I don;t see such things being called fixed plugs and that is why I asked what a fixed plug is. Presumably to avoid confusion where plugs are usually male and sockets are usually female? The C13 lead is overall "male" because it plugs inside the female C14 socket, but the individual terminals are female in the lead and male in the inlet? |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On Monday, 20 August 2018 12:00:45 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article , whisky-dave wrote: On Friday, 17 August 2018 18:09:43 UTC+1, charles wrote: In article , whisky-dave wrote: On Friday, 17 August 2018 17:01:38 UTC+1, charles wrote: In article , Clive Arthur wrote: On 17/08/2018 15:10, whisky-dave wrote: On Friday, 17 August 2018 14:06:50 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote: On 17/08/2018 13:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Clive Arthur wrote: I've just cut a bog standard IEC power lead with moulded plugs so I can shorten it. There is no earth wire, and no indication that there is no earth wire. I'm aware that most things don't use the earth, but can this be legal? Not uncommon, but pretty obvious as most usually flat, rather than round, cable. Why wouldn't it be legal? Up to the user to select the correct one for a job. In other words, use the supplied lead. Because it's a 13A plug to three pin IEC C13 socket. What would be wrong with that lead ? It has no earth and may be used on equipment where an earth is required. I've just pulled one out of my box of leads in the lab. three pin IEC C13 socket rated at 10 ams 250V cable I'm unsure of cable but it says 0.75mm^2 The 3 pins mains plug is the standard 13amp type with a 5amp fuse fitted. A label around the cable says BS 1362 complient AIUI, BS1362 is for fuses. Passed safety test in feb 2017 re-test date feb 2018. Do you mean it passed a PAT test? I'm no mains lead expert, but surely that can't be right? Interestingly, my PAT tester has a fixed plug for testing IEC leads Whats a fixed plug ? a plug (with pins on it) mounted on the front panel eg CPC part no CN08406 I don't think that would be allowed under H&S you shouldn't have live pins like that on any unit. Well there wasnt; in the PAT testers I've see, what they do have is apadpters that you use on the IEC socket on the PAT tester. They aren't LIVE pins, they're where the live free socket is plugged in to. That's what I assumed and from what I;ve seen done here with PAT. I just didn't know what a fixed plug was. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On Monday, 20 August 2018 12:07:30 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
whisky-dave wrote: Andy Burns wrote: It's an inlet, if it was the opposite gender, the trailing lead would have to have live pins ... Yes and inlet the 3 pin socket is used to plug in an IEC lead the socket end of that lead plugs into a socket on the PAT tester. The Pins DO NOT/should NOT supply voltage in a IEC lead and Presumably the PAT tester supplies voltage to a 13A socket, and a 13A-C13 lead under test is 'looped' back to the C14 inlet, so the tester can check continuity? Yes and earth resistance and perhaps breakdown voltage depending on the test applied. As these IEC/kettle leads are the most common, I'd expect a dedicated lead for testing the figure of 8 leads can be tested and an earth wire which can be connected to the case of the insturment under test (if they're not just testing leads.) I don;t see such things being called fixed plugs and that is why I asked what a fixed plug is. Presumably to avoid confusion where plugs are usually male and sockets are usually female? Did it work then did it stop confusion if that's the aim. The C13 lead is overall "male" because it plugs inside the female C14 socket, but C13 is usually female not male. and C14 is normally male. but the individual terminals are female in the lead and male in the inlet? Maybe yours are transgendered. |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On Monday, 20 August 2018 14:10:48 UTC+1, Terry Casey wrote:
In article , says... Aren't all flexes fitted to a 13 amp plug meant to be able to blow even a 13 amp fuse in event of a short? But not necessarily handle the full 13 amps long term? No, no, no, no ,no! The sole purpose of the fuse in the plug is to protect the flexible cable connected to it and should, therefore, be rated accordingly. If you fit a 13A fuse to a plug fitted with flex rated at 3A and another idiot connects the other end to a 3kW load, what do you think might happen? That person will be promted to manager. I hope you knpw where the nearest fire exot is and, of course, that the overheated cable isn't between you and it ... Well presently we have an illuminated fire exit sign that points in the oppersite direction to the actual fire exit, it points to an old fire exit now removed and a window has been installed rather than a door, and the stairs leading to it as a fire exit have been removed. It's been like this for over a month now but they think they'll be able to sort it out by 19th september although they haven't confirmed the year yet. I offered to cover the sign with black tape, but the 'managment' have assured me they will sort it out. |
Unearthed IEC lead.
In article ,
Terry Casey wrote: Aren't all flexes fitted to a 13 amp plug meant to be able to blow even a 13 amp fuse in event of a short? But not necessarily handle the full 13 amps long term? No, no, no, no ,no! The sole purpose of the fuse in the plug is to protect the flexible cable connected to it and should, therefore, be rated accordingly. If you fit a 13A fuse to a plug fitted with flex rated at 3A and another idiot connects the other end to a 3kW load, what do you think might happen? But have you seen anything these days with a 13 amp plug where the flex would suffer damage with a 13 amp fuse and short circuit? You certainly used to. Rather like two core IEC leads. But not now. I hope you knpw where the nearest fire exot is and, of course, that the overheated cable isn't between you and it ... Difference between a flex being capable of blowing a fuse in event of a short and handling 13 amps continuously without overheating. -- *I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On Monday, 20 August 2018 14:10:48 UTC+1, Terry Casey wrote:
In article , says... Aren't all flexes fitted to a 13 amp plug meant to be able to blow even a 13 amp fuse in event of a short? But not necessarily handle the full 13 amps long term? No, no, no, no ,no! The sole purpose of the fuse in the plug is to protect the flexible cable connected to it and should, therefore, be rated accordingly. If you fit a 13A fuse to a plug fitted with flex rated at 3A and another idiot connects the other end to a 3kW load, what do you think might happen? I hope you knpw where the nearest fire exot is and, of course, that the overheated cable isn't between you and it ... I found just such a thing years ago. The flex was under a pile of junk too. It had been running without incident for many years - it ran very hot & was floppy, but undamaged. NT |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On Monday, 20 August 2018 15:13:34 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Terry Casey wrote: Aren't all flexes fitted to a 13 amp plug meant to be able to blow even a 13 amp fuse in event of a short? But not necessarily handle the full 13 amps long term? No, no, no, no ,no! The sole purpose of the fuse in the plug is to protect the flexible cable connected to it and should, therefore, be rated accordingly. If you fit a 13A fuse to a plug fitted with flex rated at 3A and another idiot connects the other end to a 3kW load, what do you think might happen? But have you seen anything these days with a 13 amp plug where the flex would suffer damage with a 13 amp fuse and short circuit? The point is that IEC is the connector not the cable. The fuse is there to protect the cable. Which is one reason we shouldn't replace the fuse without the lead being 'tested' but because it's managment making the rules they haven't a clue what is required they get a company in to decide for them which they think will make them blameless if an accident should accure. You certainly used to. Rather like two core IEC leads. But not now. We still have those figure 8 cables in use, I'd be very suprised if I found one with a 13amp fuse in the plug if I did I'd replace the fuse with a 5amp. I hope you knpw where the nearest fire exot is and, of course, that the overheated cable isn't between you and it ... Difference between a flex being capable of blowing a fuse flexes aren't meant to blow fuses. in event of a short and handling 13 amps continuously without overheating. but if some idiot has put a 13amp fuse in an IEC lead that is only rated at 5amps then perhaps the flex will get how and perhaps catch fire long before teh fuse blows. |
Unearthed IEC lead.
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote: But have you seen anything these days with a 13 amp plug where the flex would suffer damage with a 13 amp fuse and short circuit? The point is that IEC is the connector not the cable. The fuse is there to protect the cable. How many IEC leads have you seen where the two aren't moulded together? In the same way as most 13 amp plugs are too? -- *When companies ship Styrofoam, what do they pack it in? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On Monday, 20 August 2018 16:21:06 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , whisky-dave wrote: But have you seen anything these days with a 13 amp plug where the flex would suffer damage with a 13 amp fuse and short circuit? The point is that IEC is the connector not the cable. The fuse is there to protect the cable. How many IEC leads have you seen where the two aren't moulded together? Enough, but most of our leads with an IEC connector on have a 5amp fuse in the 13amp plug, and virtually all have 5 or 6 amp spec'd cable connecting teh 13amp plug to the 6 or 10 amp IEC socket. Some have a 3amp fuse, those are mostly C13 to C14 for connecting the monitor to the back of a PC. I leave about 100 of theses sorts of cables in the lab in a box for easy access. I have a couple of these somewhere in case we need them. 10amp IEC Cable Plug. https://www.rapidonline.com/schurter...e-plug-23-0296 In the same way as most 13 amp plugs are too? Most 13amps plugs are too what exactly ? |
Unearthed IEC lead.
On 20/08/2018 14:10, Terry Casey wrote:
In article , says... Aren't all flexes fitted to a 13 amp plug meant to be able to blow even a 13 amp fuse in event of a short? But not necessarily handle the full 13 amps long term? No, no, no, no ,no! Actually, these days yes... But note we are talking about the specific case of a short circuit, not a continuous overload. (refer to the adiabatic calculation I did a couple of posts back - the minimum fault withstand cable CSA was less than 0.5mm which is typically the smallest flex size in common use these days. However all best are off if the flex is on the end of a long extension lead) The sole purpose of the fuse in the plug is to protect the flexible cable connected to it and should, therefore, be rated accordingly. If you fit a 13A fuse to a plug fitted with flex rated at 3A and another idiot connects the other end to a 3kW load, what do you think might happen? It would get very hot... the insulation may fail to the point where it then shorts and the fuse blows. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Unearthed IEC lead.
In article 5549f44b-8a81-4294-acef-
, says... Well presently we have an illuminated fire exit sign that points in the oppersite direction to the actual fire exit, it points to an old fire exit now removed and a window has been installed rather than a door, and the stairs leading to it as a fire exit have been removed. It's been like this for over a month now but they think they'll be able to sort it out by 19th september although they haven't confirmed the year yet. Years ago, I remember going to the Weize Beer Festival (in Belgium) and was fascinated by all the large doors I spotted with NOODUITGANG painted on them in large letters. Uitgang is obviously way out but to even a sober British mind (and this was a beer festival, remember!) Nooduitgang shouts No Exit. In fact, Nooduitgang is Dutch for Emergency Exit! -- Terry --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
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