1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house.. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg


NT

On 09/07/2018 08:02, wrote:
1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

I like the instruction 'use asbestos tube when re-wiring'.


--
--

Colin Bignell

Sounds to me like a complete renewal here is in order. Its probably
knackered after all those years anyway, but I bet its replacement won't last
anywhere near as long!
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
wrote in message
...
1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop
inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed
house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth
could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used
to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper
twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So
it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual
pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg


NT

Perhaps a museum might like it if it can be removed intact.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 09/07/2018 08:02, wrote:
1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop
inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed
house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company
earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is
only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm
of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not
accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an
option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

I like the instruction 'use asbestos tube when re-wiring'.


--
--

Colin Bignell

On Monday, 9 July 2018 09:28:39 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop
inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed
house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth
could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used
to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper
twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So
it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual
pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg


NT

Sounds to me like a complete renewal here is in order. Its probably
knackered after all those years anyway, but I bet its replacement won't last
anywhere near as long!
Brian

not knackered at all. It survived decades powering an all electric system of storage heaters & immersion heater without complaint. I can only conclude it was well made and conservatively specced.


NT

On 09/07/2018 08:02, wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to
stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT
earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

Hopefully, one of the fuse carriers has been swapped out for a solid
metal link:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...toutInside.jpg

30A seems rather restrictive for a modern property. (assuming that that
fuse wire has not been swapped out for something larger)

What size are the tails from the main cutout? They look like modern PVC
tails of at least 16mm^2 - which would suggest the cutout has at least
been opened some time in more recent history.

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company
earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which
is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5
square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed
sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course
TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

I would check with the distributor whether an upgrade to a modern 60 or
100A feed is available, and chances are you would get TN-C-S anyway.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Nice ;-)

(that label ought to go in the wiki somewhere - perhaps the dating
electrics article)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, 9 July 2018 08:02:56 UTC+1, wrote:
1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to
stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT
earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It's Amendment 3 compliant isn't it???

Instructions of how the DNO would change it are here
https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/u...SAF-12-021.pdf

Obviously this is not something even you should do yourself.

If it is DP fused the DNO should replace it quite quickly.

Owain

On Monday, 9 July 2018 11:34:16 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to
stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT
earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

Hopefully, one of the fuse carriers has been swapped out for a solid
metal link:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...toutInside.jpg

I could look but would it be a good idea?


30A seems rather restrictive for a modern property. (assuming that that
fuse wire has not been swapped out for something larger)

electrical use has certainly not been constrained to anything like 30A. Oven, microwave, kettle & washing machine may be on at once. At least space & water heating are no longer electric, they used to be. It seems Isco were modest about their product's capabilities.


What size are the tails from the main cutout? They look like modern PVC
tails of at least 16mm^2 - which would suggest the cutout has at least
been opened some time in more recent history.

I believe it got those tails in 82

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company
earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which
is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5
square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed
sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course
TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

I would check with the distributor whether an upgrade to a modern 60 or
100A feed is available, and chances are you would get TN-C-S anyway.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Nice ;-)

(that label ought to go in the wiki somewhere - perhaps the dating
electrics article)

yes - though I've not got any date for it yet, I presume 1930s. Searching the patent numbers got nowhere.

I presume 'SP only' means single phase, but it couldn't be used for 3 phase, I guess it means don't use it on 2 phase at that voltage, which would put 1kV between the poles.


NT

On Monday, 9 July 2018 12:13:59 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 08:02:56 UTC+1, tabby wrote:
1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to
stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT
earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It's Amendment 3 compliant isn't it???

I believe it is. But not compliant with 1955 regs.


Instructions of how the DNO would change it are here
https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/u...SAF-12-021.pdf

Obviously this is not something even you should do yourself.

If it is DP fused the DNO should replace it quite quickly.

Owain

DP fusing is easy to rectify, and it seems to be in sound condition. But I think they should replace it on the grounds that it is overloaded.


NT

On 09/07/2018 12:25, wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 11:34:16 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing
to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a
TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

Hopefully, one of the fuse carriers has been swapped out for a
solid metal link:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...toutInside.jpg


I could look but would it be a good idea?

Opening the cover is probably low risk, but I would be very cautions
pulling a fuse carrier on something that old (and of that design)

30A seems rather restrictive for a modern property. (assuming that
that fuse wire has not been swapped out for something larger)

electrical use has certainly not been constrained to anything like
30A. Oven, microwave, kettle & washing machine may be on at once. At
least space & water heating are no longer electric, they used to be.
It seems Isco were modest about their product's capabilities.

as the label says, fusing current 57A... Combine that with the short
term load nature of many kitchen loads and you are likely to get away
with it even if its still fused at 30A.

What size are the tails from the main cutout? They look like modern
PVC tails of at least 16mm^2 - which would suggest the cutout has
at least been opened some time in more recent history.

I believe it got those tails in 82

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the
company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth
connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears
to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable
with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's
inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a
dual pole fused supply.

I would check with the distributor whether an upgrade to a modern
60 or 100A feed is available, and chances are you would get TN-C-S
anyway.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Nice ;-)

(that label ought to go in the wiki somewhere - perhaps the dating
electrics article)

yes - though I've not got any date for it yet, I presume 1930s.
Searching the patent numbers got nowhere.

I presume 'SP only' means single phase, but it couldn't be used for 3
phase, I guess it means don't use it on 2 phase at that voltage,
which would put 1kV between the poles.

Yup, SP only is single phase.

There are not enough "ways" for 3ph use.

IME cutouts for three phase use tend to be either a 3ph head end
designed for the purpose, or three separate single phase ones.

There would be no practical purpose in taking two phases through
something like that, since without the third phase you would need a
neutral - so you would need three poles even for that.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, 9 July 2018 13:10:04 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/07/2018 12:25, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 11:34:16 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing
to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a
TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

Hopefully, one of the fuse carriers has been swapped out for a
solid metal link:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...toutInside.jpg


I could look but would it be a good idea?

Opening the cover is probably low risk, but I would be very cautions
pulling a fuse carrier on something that old (and of that design)

that's what I thought

30A seems rather restrictive for a modern property. (assuming that
that fuse wire has not been swapped out for something larger)

electrical use has certainly not been constrained to anything like
30A. Oven, microwave, kettle & washing machine may be on at once. At
least space & water heating are no longer electric, they used to be.
It seems Isco were modest about their product's capabilities.

as the label says, fusing current 57A... Combine that with the short
term load nature of many kitchen loads and you are likely to get away
with it even if its still fused at 30A.

the good news is the rest of it has proven capable well beyond its spec.

What size are the tails from the main cutout? They look like modern
PVC tails of at least 16mm^2 - which would suggest the cutout has
at least been opened some time in more recent history.

I believe it got those tails in 82

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the
company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth
connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears
to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable
with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's
inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a
dual pole fused supply.

I would check with the distributor whether an upgrade to a modern
60 or 100A feed is available, and chances are you would get TN-C-S
anyway.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Nice ;-)

(that label ought to go in the wiki somewhere - perhaps the dating
electrics article)

yes - though I've not got any date for it yet, I presume 1930s.
Searching the patent numbers got nowhere.

I presume 'SP only' means single phase, but it couldn't be used for 3
phase, I guess it means don't use it on 2 phase at that voltage,
which would put 1kV between the poles.

Yup, SP only is single phase.

There are not enough "ways" for 3ph use.

IME cutouts for three phase use tend to be either a 3ph head end
designed for the purpose, or three separate single phase ones.

There would be no practical purpose in taking two phases through
something like that, since without the third phase you would need a
neutral - so you would need three poles even for that.

2 phase distribution was common in the 1930s.


NT

On 09/07/2018 08:02, wrote:
1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?


--
Adam

On 09/07/2018 08:02, wrote:
1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg


NT


A 30A rated incomer would not really be considered adequate for a 5
bedroom property these days unless there are just lighting and ring main
circuits connected to it.

30A is not sufficient for most modern electric cookers or showers

On 09/07/2018 12:33, wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 12:13:59 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 08:02:56 UTC+1, tabby wrote:
1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to
stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT
earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It's Amendment 3 compliant isn't it???

I believe it is. But not compliant with 1955 regs.


Instructions of how the DNO would change it are here
https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/u...SAF-12-021.pdf

Obviously this is not something even you should do yourself.

If it is DP fused the DNO should replace it quite quickly.

Owain

DP fusing is easy to rectify, and it seems to be in sound condition. But I think they should replace it on the grounds that it is overloaded.

The incomer may be rated to suit, so that might also need to be replaced.



--
--

Colin Bignell

On Monday, 9 July 2018 19:56:08 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 09/07/2018 12:33, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 12:13:59 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 08:02:56 UTC+1, tabby wrote:
1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to
stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT
earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It's Amendment 3 compliant isn't it???

I believe it is. But not compliant with 1955 regs.


Instructions of how the DNO would change it are here
https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/u...SAF-12-021.pdf

Obviously this is not something even you should do yourself.

If it is DP fused the DNO should replace it quite quickly.

Owain

DP fusing is easy to rectify, and it seems to be in sound condition. But I think they should replace it on the grounds that it is overloaded.

The incomer may be rated to suit, so that might also need to be replaced.

Hard to work out what you mean.


NT

On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible.. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.


NT

On 10/07/2018 00:52, wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 19:56:08 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 09/07/2018 12:33, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 12:13:59 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 08:02:56 UTC+1, tabby wrote:
1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to
stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT
earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It's Amendment 3 compliant isn't it???

I believe it is. But not compliant with 1955 regs.


Instructions of how the DNO would change it are here
https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/u...SAF-12-021.pdf

Obviously this is not something even you should do yourself.

If it is DP fused the DNO should replace it quite quickly.

Owain

DP fusing is easy to rectify, and it seems to be in sound condition. But I think they should replace it on the grounds that it is overloaded.

The incomer may be rated to suit, so that might also need to be replaced.

Hard to work out what you mean.

If the fuse unit is rated at 30 amps, then the incoming cable was
probably sized to suit and may well need to be replaced if a higher
capacity supply is needed.


--
--

Colin Bignell

On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 09:31:24 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:52, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 19:56:08 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 09/07/2018 12:33, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 12:13:59 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 08:02:56 UTC+1, tabby wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to
stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT
earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It's Amendment 3 compliant isn't it???

I believe it is. But not compliant with 1955 regs.


Instructions of how the DNO would change it are here
https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/u...SAF-12-021.pdf

Obviously this is not something even you should do yourself.

If it is DP fused the DNO should replace it quite quickly.

Owain

DP fusing is easy to rectify, and it seems to be in sound condition. But I think they should replace it on the grounds that it is overloaded.

The incomer may be rated to suit, so that might also need to be replaced.

Hard to work out what you mean.

If the fuse unit is rated at 30 amps, then the incoming cable was
probably sized to suit and may well need to be replaced if a higher
capacity supply is needed.

Oh, good point. It looks capable of 100s, but the DNO will figure it out.


NT

On 10/07/2018 00:53, wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP


--
Adam

On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.


NT

On 10/07/2018 19:51, wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.

You don't have to pull the fuse holders out to see that - just opening
the hinged door will do. If its been converted then one of the carriers
will have a stonking great metal bar in place of the old carrier - just
like in the photo I posted a link to earlier:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...toutInside.jpg

LHS: Fuse wire carrier. RHS: bridging link to eliminate the second fuse


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 22:51:07 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/07/2018 19:51, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.

You don't have to pull the fuse holders out to see that - just opening
the hinged door will do. If its been converted then one of the carriers
will have a stonking great metal bar in place of the old carrier - just
like in the photo I posted a link to earlier:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...toutInside.jpg

LHS: Fuse wire carrier. RHS: bridging link to eliminate the second fuse

then it's still DP fused!


NT

On 10/07/2018 23:12, wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 22:51:07 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/07/2018 19:51, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.

You don't have to pull the fuse holders out to see that - just opening
the hinged door will do. If its been converted then one of the carriers
will have a stonking great metal bar in place of the old carrier - just
like in the photo I posted a link to earlier:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...toutInside.jpg

LHS: Fuse wire carrier. RHS: bridging link to eliminate the second fuse

then it's still DP fused!

Not sure how you could come to that conclusion?

I would expect the fusing current of the bridge part to be well in
excess of the PSCC of the supply in most cases.

(you also can't pull out the bridge - its screwed into the base part of
the carrier and the carrier itself has been removed)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 00:20:18 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/07/2018 23:12, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 22:51:07 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/07/2018 19:51, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.

You don't have to pull the fuse holders out to see that - just opening
the hinged door will do. If its been converted then one of the carriers
will have a stonking great metal bar in place of the old carrier - just
like in the photo I posted a link to earlier:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...toutInside.jpg

LHS: Fuse wire carrier. RHS: bridging link to eliminate the second fuse

then it's still DP fused!

Not sure how you could come to that conclusion?

http://i63.tinypic.com/aufgxe.jpg


NT

I would expect the fusing current of the bridge part to be well in
excess of the PSCC of the supply in most cases.

(you also can't pull out the bridge - its screwed into the base part of
the carrier and the carrier itself has been removed)

On 11/07/2018 11:40, wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 00:20:18 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/07/2018 23:12, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 22:51:07 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/07/2018 19:51, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.

You don't have to pull the fuse holders out to see that - just opening
the hinged door will do. If its been converted then one of the carriers
will have a stonking great metal bar in place of the old carrier - just
like in the photo I posted a link to earlier:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...toutInside.jpg

LHS: Fuse wire carrier. RHS: bridging link to eliminate the second fuse

then it's still DP fused!

Not sure how you could come to that conclusion?

http://i63.tinypic.com/aufgxe.jpg

Ah, sorry I think we are talking at crossed purposes. I thought you were
suggesting the pic I posted was showing a cutout with DP fusing.

(You missed out the bit which said "I just looked, and...")

In which case, yup get the DNO to change it.





--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 12:10:53 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/07/2018 11:40, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 00:20:18 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/07/2018 23:12, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 22:51:07 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/07/2018 19:51, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.

You don't have to pull the fuse holders out to see that - just opening
the hinged door will do. If its been converted then one of the carriers
will have a stonking great metal bar in place of the old carrier - just
like in the photo I posted a link to earlier:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...toutInside.jpg

LHS: Fuse wire carrier. RHS: bridging link to eliminate the second fuse

then it's still DP fused!

Not sure how you could come to that conclusion?

http://i63.tinypic.com/aufgxe.jpg

Ah, sorry I think we are talking at crossed purposes. I thought you were
suggesting the pic I posted was showing a cutout with DP fusing.

no

(You missed out the bit which said "I just looked, and...")

The pic of the fuse wire table is from inside

In which case, yup get the DNO to change it.

That will happen.


NT

On 10/07/2018 19:51, wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.

What make you think that it is TT?


--
Adam

On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 17:29:13 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 19:51, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.

What make you think that it is TT?

a) there is no earth connection from the incomer
b) the earth is connected to the incoming waterpipe

The ISCO incomer is earthed by the incoming cable, but nothing else connects to that earth. Nor would I want it to, it's grossly undersized & looks probably just tied round the cable rather than properly connected.


NT

On 11/07/2018 19:42, wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 17:29:13 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 19:51, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.

What make you think that it is TT?

a) there is no earth connection from the incomer
b) the earth is connected to the incoming waterpipe

The ISCO incomer is earthed by the incoming cable, but nothing else connects to that earth. Nor would I want it to, it's grossly undersized & looks probably just tied round the cable rather than properly connected.


A TT supply has no earth at all. If the incomer is earthed then it is
not a TT supply. Hopefully the supplier will make the earth into a more
useable one when they swap the head.

That looks like a steel wrapped lead sheathed incomer. They normally
have an earth, just in this case it has not been made off properly.



--
Adam

On Thursday, 12 July 2018 17:13:25 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 11/07/2018 19:42, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 July 2018 17:29:13 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 19:51, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 July 2018 19:20:52 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 10/07/2018 00:53, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 9 July 2018 17:43:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/07/2018 08:02, tabbypurr wrote:

1920s or 1930s incomer rated 30A max, dual pole fused, nothing to stop inquisitive fingers opening it without a tool, running a TT earthed 5 bed house. Is that satisfactory?

It came to light when the incomer was examined to see if the company earth could be used, ie convert TT to TN. The earth connection (which is only used to earth the incomer box) appears to consist of 1-1.5 square mm of copper twisted round the cable with the cable's earthed sheath not accessible. So it's inadequate for TN use. And of course TNC-S is not an option on a dual pole fused supply.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2u8kuoh.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/6e2gt4.jpg

Examined by whom?

Nope, can't remember.

Well have a think about it, was it the milkman or the postman?

If it really is DP fused then call your supplier and have it swapped ASAP

The plan is to ask them to look at it once the other work is done, hopefully to replace it. I'm a bit hesitant to pull the fuseholders out to see if it's still DP fused.

What make you think that it is TT?

a) there is no earth connection from the incomer
b) the earth is connected to the incoming waterpipe

The ISCO incomer is earthed by the incoming cable, but nothing else connects to that earth. Nor would I want it to, it's grossly undersized & looks probably just tied round the cable rather than properly connected.


A TT supply has no earth at all. If the incomer is earthed then it is
not a TT supply. Hopefully the supplier will make the earth into a more
useable one when they swap the head.

That looks like a steel wrapped lead sheathed incomer. They normally
have an earth, just in this case it has not been made off properly.

what I meant is the install is TT because the company earth is not usable. I'm sure they'll fix it. Will be of to another dp fused place this weekend.


NT