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O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating?
How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
Murmansk wrote: I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? That's one type, a battery, sensor and transmitter in a lump inside the tyre, e.g. https://www.eurofrance.pl/userdata/gfx/0f53520cb6b93802b9dd618dcafedc1b.jpg The other type have no actual pressure sensor at all, but monitor the relative speeds of the wheels from the ABS sensors, and spot slow (or rapid) deflation based on that. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 21/06/2018 20:54, Murmansk wrote:
I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? On mine I believe it uses the ABS sensors to determine if one wheel (presumably over a period of time) is rotating faster than the others. A deflated tyre will be smaller in circumference. -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 21/06/2018 20:54, Murmansk wrote:
I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? You could actually use google, you know ... Anyway, there are two systems AFAIK. (I'd know more if I'd googled it, but if you couldn't be bothered ...) System 1: Uses a pressure sensor. System 2: Senses if one of the wheels is going round more often than the others = that wheel is flatter than the others. But if they are all going flat together, that doesn't work. Also, you'll get a false reading if you keep doing left turns and never turning right, like on the Indie 500. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
Tim Streater wrote:
Last winter on a couple of frosty mornings the pressure sensor came on, went off later in the day. I wondered what it was at first. I've had about a dozen warnings from TMPS (the ABS type) over the last 7+ years, not one of them false. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
Murmansk wrote
I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? Yep. How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? In the wheel, yep. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 07:04:42 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again: I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? Yep. How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? In the wheel, yep. His questions were already answered, Rot. So why did you feel everyone was waiting for your confirmation, you braindamaged senile cretin? -- Sqwertz to Rot Speed: "This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative asshole. MID: |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 21/06/18 21:02, alan_m wrote:
On 21/06/2018 20:54, Murmansk wrote: I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? On mine I believe it uses the ABS sensors to determine if one wheel (presumably over a period of time) is rotating faster than the others. A deflated tyre will be smaller in circumference. Radius perhaps, but circumference - not much. The steel belts in the tread take care of that. -- €œA leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader, who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say, €œWe did this ourselves.€ €• Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
GB wrote:
On 21/06/2018 20:54, Murmansk wrote: I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? You could actually use google, you know ... Anyway, there are two systems AFAIK. (I'd know more if I'd googled it, but if you couldn't be bothered ...) System 1: Uses a pressure sensor. System 2: Senses if one of the wheels is going round more often than the others = that wheel is flatter than the others. But if they are all going flat together, that doesn't work. Also, you'll get a false reading if you keep doing left turns and never turning right, like on the Indie 500. Some use bluetooth from sensors associated or near the filler nipple |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
I don't think its wireless.
Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "Murmansk" wrote in message ... I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 21/06/18 20:54, Murmansk wrote:
I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? 2 ways: 1) Relative rotation - very hit and miss and tells you if one's heading towards being a flatty but not much more; 2) There is a pressure sensor built into the valve in each tyre - long life battery and radio transmission to one or more receivers. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
Brian Gaff wrote
I don't think its wireless. It is with some of them. Murmansk wrote I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 22/06/2018 08:15, Tim Watts wrote:
On 21/06/18 20:54, Murmansk wrote: I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? 2 ways: 1) Relative rotation - very hit and miss and tells you if one's heading towards being a flatty but not much more; 2) There is a pressure sensor built into the valve in each tyre - long life battery and radio transmission to one or more receivers. I assume that the tyre pressure check in the new MOT is actually checking that the system is not reporting an error because, say, the battery in the sensor has gone flat. -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
alan_m wrote:
On 21/06/2018 20:54, Murmansk wrote: I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? On mine I believe it uses the ABS sensors to determine if one wheel (presumably over a period of time) is rotating faster than the others. A deflated tyre will be smaller in circumference. Does it *really* work like that? Tyres have steel or nylon bracing in them to *stop* them stretching much. If you run on a flat tyre it squishes somewhat but, unless it's actually skidding on the road surface, the same circumferance will roll along the road surface for each rotation. The difference in revs/metre between a tyre at (say) 2.5bar and one at (say) 2.2bar must be really tiny. Our tyre pressure warning goes off immediately you turn the ignition on whichsuggest to me some sort of pressure sensor in the rim or valve. -- Chris Green · |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
Rod Speed wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote I don't think its wireless. It is with some of them. If it's not wireless what could it possibly be? ESP? -- Chris Green · |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 22/06/18 20:41, Chris Green wrote:
Rod Speed wrote: Brian Gaff wrote I don't think its wireless. It is with some of them. If it's not wireless what could it possibly be? ESP? Tyre rotation based usually via the ABS sensors. Not really "pressure" but more "your tyre's completely shagged". |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 22/06/18 20:40, Chris Green wrote:
alan_m wrote: On 21/06/2018 20:54, Murmansk wrote: I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? On mine I believe it uses the ABS sensors to determine if one wheel (presumably over a period of time) is rotating faster than the others. A deflated tyre will be smaller in circumference. Does it *really* work like that? Tyres have steel or nylon bracing in them to *stop* them stretching much. If you run on a flat tyre it squishes somewhat but, unless it's actually skidding on the road surface, the same circumferance will roll along the road surface for each rotation. The difference in revs/metre between a tyre at (say) 2.5bar and one at (say) 2.2bar must be really tiny. Our tyre pressure warning goes off immediately you turn the ignition on whichsuggest to me some sort of pressure sensor in the rim or valve. I've had the light come on on the missus' Mini so it does work. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
Chris Green wrote:
alan_m wrote: uses the ABS sensors to determine if one wheel (presumably over a period of time) is rotating faster than the others. Does it *really* work like that? Some absolutely do work that way, search "indirect TPMS" Our tyre pressure warning goes off immediately you turn the ignition on whichsuggest to me some sort of pressure sensor in the rim or valve. Sounds like yours is the "direct TPMS" type with pressure sensors. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 22/06/2018 21:01, Tim Watts wrote:
On 22/06/18 20:41, Chris Green wrote: Rod Speed wrote: Brian Gaff wrote I don't think its wireless. It is with some of them. If it's not wireless what could it possibly be?Â* ESP? Tyre rotation based usually via the ABS sensors. Not really "pressure" but more "your tyre's completely shagged". That's the most basic version. The "better" versions use low-powered, battery transmitters. Which of course can fail; be wrecked by a flat; be wrecked by emergency sealant, etc. One not working will now be an MOT failure, so that'll be a nice little earner for the dealers. SteveW |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 22/06/2018 20:40, Chris Green wrote:
Does it*really* work like that? Tyres have steel or nylon bracing in them to*stop* them stretching much. If you run on a flat tyre it squishes somewhat but, unless it's actually skidding on the road surface, the same circumferance will roll along the road surface for each rotation. Some of that circumference must rotate while it's off the ground. The _radius_ at the bit on the ground is reduced, so it must spin the tyre faster. Andy |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
Vir Campestris wrote:
The _radius_ at the bit on the ground is reduced, so it must spin the tyre faster. Apparently 2nd generation indirect TPMS can use spectrum analysis instead of simple rotation speed https://niradynamics.se/products/tpi |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 20:40:22 +0100, Chris Green wrote:
snip On mine I believe it uses the ABS sensors to determine if one wheel (presumably over a period of time) is rotating faster than the others. A deflated tyre will be smaller in circumference. Does it *really* work like that? Tyres have steel or nylon bracing in them to *stop* them stretching much. If you run on a flat tyre it squishes somewhat but, unless it's actually skidding on the road surface, the same circumferance will roll along the road surface for each rotation. It's not the circumference that determines the rotational speed but the 'rolling radius. If you had a solid wheel (nearer to a cart or train wheel) then the two would be pretty close but there would still be some slight compression (in the spokes / rim / tyre of a cart wheel and in the 'tyre' on a train wheel). If you imagine the diameter of the tyre getting smaller as the tyre is getting compressed at the bottom then the effective circumference would change accordingly. The difference in revs/metre between a tyre at (say) 2.5bar and one at (say) 2.2bar must be really tiny. Yes, it probably is, but it might still be enough to be 'sensed' compared with the other wheel(s). Our tyre pressure warning goes off immediately you turn the ignition on whichsuggest to me some sort of pressure sensor in the rim or valve. That sounds most likely. I believe the most common is a unit that is part of the valve that contains a pressure sensor, battery and wireless transmitter and I don't think you can replace the battery. I always wondered why it couldn't have a rechargeable battery with some sort of inertial charger but I guess that would make it too heavy / complicated. Cheers, T i m |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 21/06/2018 21:51, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Streater wrote: Last winter on a couple of frosty mornings the pressure sensor came on, went off later in the day. I wondered what it was at first. I've had about a dozen warnings from TMPS (the ABS type) over the last 7+ years, not one of them false. How flat were the tyres? How much pressure had they lost? 12 flat tyres in 7+ years is much more than I would expect. -- Michael Chare |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 00:54:54 +0100, Michael Chare wrote:
On 21/06/2018 21:51, Andy Burns wrote: Tim Streater wrote: Last winter on a couple of frosty mornings the pressure sensor came on, went off later in the day. I wondered what it was at first. I've had about a dozen warnings from TMPS (the ABS type) over the last 7+ years, not one of them false. How flat were the tyres? How much pressure had they lost? 12 flat tyres in 7+ years is much more than I would expect. I had a spate of flattening tyres a few years ago. Turned out to be peeling varnish on the allow wheels, spoiling the seal. -- My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message. Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
"Chris Green" wrote in message ... alan_m wrote: On 21/06/2018 20:54, Murmansk wrote: I understand some new cars can tell you when their tyres need inflating? How do they work? Is there some kind of pressure sensor inside the tyre that communicates wirelessly with the car's systems? On mine I believe it uses the ABS sensors to determine if one wheel (presumably over a period of time) is rotating faster than the others. A deflated tyre will be smaller in circumference. Does it *really* work like that? Tyres have steel or nylon bracing in them to *stop* them stretching much. If you run on a flat tyre it squishes somewhat but, unless it's actually skidding on the road surface, the same circumferance will roll along the road surface for each rotation. The difference in revs/metre between a tyre at (say) 2.5bar and one at (say) 2.2bar must be really tiny. But the radius of the tyre at the position where it contacts the road does change much more than that. Our tyre pressure warning goes off immediately you turn the ignition on whichsuggest to me some sort of pressure sensor in the rim or valve. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
"Chris Green" wrote in message ... Rod Speed wrote: Brian Gaff wrote I don't think its wireless. It is with some of them. If it's not wireless what could it possibly be? ESP? In theory it could be done with slip rings but in practice that isnt feasible in real life. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
"Michael Chare" wrote in message ... On 21/06/2018 21:51, Andy Burns wrote: Tim Streater wrote: Last winter on a couple of frosty mornings the pressure sensor came on, went off later in the day. I wondered what it was at first. I've had about a dozen warnings from TMPS (the ABS type) over the last 7+ years, not one of them false. How flat were the tyres? How much pressure had they lost? 12 flat tyres in 7+ years is much more than I would expect. Doesnt need to be flat, just under inflated. I've had lots of those where when checking the tyre pressure at the service station does see some more air needed in a particular tyre. And my Getz is a real bugger with a true flat tyre, very hard to even notice its gone flat and that means most of the flats result in a buggered tyre since you drive on it flat long enough to **** the tyre so that fixing the leak wont work. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 22/06/18 22:01, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 22/06/2018 20:40, Chris Green wrote: Does it*really*Â* work like that?Â* Tyres have steel or nylon bracing in them to*stop*Â* them stretching much.Â* If you run on a flat tyre it squishes somewhat but, unless it's actually skidding on the road surface, the same circumferance will roll along the road surface for each rotation. Some of that circumference must rotate while it's off the ground. The _radius_ at the bit on the ground is reduced, so it must spin the tyre faster. It would if a flat tyre was circular. Since it isn't, you are talking relative ******** What is the radius of a tank track? Andy -- "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding". Marshall McLuhan |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
Michael Chare wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: I've had about a dozen warnings from TMPS (the ABS type) over the last 7+ years, not one of them false. How flat were the tyres? How much pressure had they lost? Varied ... Several (yellow warning) times when tyres had just gradually lost pressure without a puncture, maybe 43 down to 38psi, which would be detected at about the same level as when I started to notice going over speed humps was a bit softer than usual. Several normal slow punctures from nails/screws (also yellow warning) Once (red warning) where it picked up a fast puncture on the motorway before I had noticed it, and by the time I had come to rest on the hard shoulder the tyre was completely flat. 12 flat tyres in 7+ years is much more than I would expect. Overall I think 5 were punctures (all except one were repairable) two were from kerbs, the rest were just reminders to top-up pressures. Several of the punctures occurred in the first year of buying the car, I was half convinced there were nail-magnets fitted. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 22/06/18 21:28, Steve Walker wrote:
On 22/06/2018 21:01, Tim Watts wrote: On 22/06/18 20:41, Chris Green wrote: Rod Speed wrote: Brian Gaff wrote I don't think its wireless. It is with some of them. If it's not wireless what could it possibly be?Â* ESP? Tyre rotation based usually via the ABS sensors. Not really "pressure" but more "your tyre's completely shagged". That's the most basic version. The "better" versions use low-powered, battery transmitters. Which of course can fail; be wrecked by a flat; be wrecked by emergency sealant, etc. One not working will now be an MOT failure, so that'll be a nice little earner for the dealers. I was answering the GPP's query about "not wireless" :) |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 13:10:16 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again: Does it *really* work like that? Tyres have steel or nylon bracing in them to *stop* them stretching much. If you run on a flat tyre it squishes somewhat but, unless it's actually skidding on the road surface, the same circumferance will roll along the road surface for each rotation. The difference in revs/metre between a tyre at (say) 2.5bar and one at (say) 2.2bar must be really tiny. But the radius of the tyre at the position where it contacts the road does change much more than that. AGAIN: that was already mentioned, so what makes you believe that everyone was waiting for your confirmation again, you self-opinionated senile asshole? -- Richard addressing Rot Speed: "**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll." MID: |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 13:45:57 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again: result in a buggered tyre since you drive on it flat long enough to **** the tyre so that fixing the leak wont work. Who/what drove YOU long enough that you became completely ****ed, you self-opinionated bigmouthed asshole? Or were you born that way? -- Sqwertz to Rot Speed: "This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative asshole. MID: |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 23/06/2018 06:38, Andy Burns wrote:
Michael Chare wrote: Andy Burns wrote: I've had about a dozen warnings from TMPS (the ABS type) over the last 7+ years, not one of them false. How flat were the tyres? How much pressure had they lost? Varied ... Several (yellow warning) times when tyres had just gradually lost pressure without a puncture, maybe 43 down to 38psi, which would be detected at about the same level as when I started to notice going over speed humps was a bit softer than usual. Several normal slow punctures from nails/screws (also yellow warning) Once (red warning) where it picked up a fast puncture on the motorway before I had noticed it, and by the time I had come to rest on the hard shoulder the tyre was completely flat. 12 flat tyres in 7+ years is much more than I would expect. Overall I think 5 were punctures (all except one were repairable) two were from kerbs, the rest were just reminders to top-up pressures. Several of the punctures occurred in the first year of buying the car, I was half convinced there were nail-magnets fitted. I thought I was prone to getting punctures but not as bad as that. I had one wheel which vibrated a bit so I fitted it to the rear. Even then I noticed a vibration at about 75mph. Eventually I had to stop for a flat tyre and found that the tyre had developed a bulge say a couple of inches in diameter which had then worn completely through. I wonder if the pressure sensors in the tyres of my new car would have noticed that before the tyre became completely flat. -- Michael Chare |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On 23/06/2018 01:03, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 00:54:54 +0100, Michael Chare wrote: On 21/06/2018 21:51, Andy Burns wrote: Tim Streater wrote: Last winter on a couple of frosty mornings the pressure sensor came on, went off later in the day. I wondered what it was at first. I've had about a dozen warnings from TMPS (the ABS type) over the last 7+ years, not one of them false. How flat were the tyres? How much pressure had they lost? 12 flat tyres in 7+ years is much more than I would expect. I had a spate of flattening tyres a few years ago. Turned out to be peeling varnish on the allow wheels, spoiling the seal. I do wonder about the benefits of alloy wheels. There was a recent thread about the tyres on them sometimes not staying inflated and they are quite easy to damage. -- Michael Chare |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 06:26:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: snip Since it isn't, you are talking relative ******** What is the radius of a tank track? Just how distortable is a tank track, how many ply is it? Do the lay of the plies form a mobile parallelogram allowing the tracks themselves to change size under different circumstances (including load bearing rotation)? Cheers, T i m |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
"T i m" wrote in message ... On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 06:26:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: snip Since it isn't, you are talking relative ******** What is the radius of a tank track? Just how distortable is a tank track, It isnt. ****ing great chunks of steel. how many ply is it? Just one. https://www.dropbox.com/s/930nsu95iv...track.jpg?dl=0 Do the lay of the plies There is just one ply. form a mobile parallelogram allowing the tracks themselves to change size under different circumstances (including load bearing rotation)? Nope. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 08:42:37 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again: It isnt. ****ing great chunks of steel. how many ply is it? Just one. https://www.dropbox.com/s/930nsu95iv...track.jpg?dl=0 Do the lay of the plies There is just one ply. form a mobile parallelogram allowing the tracks themselves to change size under different circumstances (including load bearing rotation)? Nope. Ever wondered why nobody in real life seems to want to talk to you, you self-opinionated bigmouthed asshole? No? You SHOULD wonder! BG -- Sqwertz to Rot Speed: "This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative asshole. MID: |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On Saturday, 23 June 2018 22:49:04 UTC+1, Michael Chare wrote:
On 23/06/2018 01:03, Bob Eager wrote: On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 00:54:54 +0100, Michael Chare wrote: On 21/06/2018 21:51, Andy Burns wrote: Tim Streater wrote: Last winter on a couple of frosty mornings the pressure sensor came on, went off later in the day. I wondered what it was at first. I've had about a dozen warnings from TMPS (the ABS type) over the last 7+ years, not one of them false. How flat were the tyres? How much pressure had they lost? 12 flat tyres in 7+ years is much more than I would expect. I had a spate of flattening tyres a few years ago. Turned out to be peeling varnish on the allow wheels, spoiling the seal. I do wonder about the benefits of alloy wheels. There was a recent thread about the tyres on them sometimes not staying inflated and they are quite easy to damage. -- Michael Chare Improves ride and handling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_mass |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
harry brought next idea :
I do wonder about the benefits of alloy wheels. There was a recent thread about the tyres on them sometimes not staying inflated and they are quite easy to damage. -- Michael Chare Improves ride and handling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_mass Actually alloy does neither. The weight is about the same and alloy is sometimes even heavier than steel. The use of alloy is more about design and fashion. |
O.T. tyre pressure sensors - how do they work?
On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 01:06:05 +0200, Peeler
wrote: snip Ever wondered why nobody in real life seems to want to talk to you, you self-opinionated bigmouthed snip I think it's just a cry for help and we are his 'care in the community'. ;-) I can't imagine him being like that ITRW (or not if he was to be like that in any pub in the UK). The thing is, because he is thick (and or low EQ) he judges everone else by his own standards. ;-( Does he really think I don't know exactly how a tank track is made (and how heavy even a single link is!) and how it doesn't compare with the mobility of something made of rubber and using steel wire for support that is *designed* to move in use? Cheers, T i m |
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