The hinges for the back doors of my Merc 709D are incredibly stiff. If
unbolted from the door it's hard to move them by hand. These are very
big heavy doors by the way. The hinges are external; surface mounted.
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

I feel that I ought to free the hinges. But how do I do this? WD40 has
failed. And is it possible that the hinges are meant to be very stiff,
to control the door?

Bill

On Sun, 10 Jun 2018 21:11:42 +0100, Bill Wright
wrote:

The hinges for the back doors of my Merc 709D are incredibly stiff.

I got a panicky call from a mate one Sunday morning when the rear door
fell off his Shogun. He too had noticed it becoming stiff but had done
nothing about it. ;-(

If
unbolted from the door it's hard to move them by hand. These are very
big heavy doors by the way. The hinges are external; surface mounted.

Sounds familiar.

The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

Possibly.

I feel that I ought to free the hinges.

Yes you should, before it's too late! ;-(

But how do I do this?

I'd say you have to get some lubrication in there.

WD40 has
failed.

I would always start such experiments with a REAL penetrating oil, not
WD40.

And is it possible that the hinges are meant to be very stiff,
to control the door?

I can't see how they could if it's *just* a steel pin in a cast
housing (as most of them are)?

In the case of my mates I took the hinges off, used heat and
penetrating oil to allow me to remove the broken off section and the
fixed bit from the other side and turned him a couple of new pins and
sent him on his way (to the airport as it happened)!

Cheers, T i m

On Sunday, 10 June 2018 21:22:03 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jun 2018 21:11:42 +0100, Bill Wright
wrote:

The hinges for the back doors of my Merc 709D are incredibly stiff.

I got a panicky call from a mate one Sunday morning when the rear door
fell off his Shogun. He too had noticed it becoming stiff but had done
nothing about it. ;-(

If
unbolted from the door it's hard to move them by hand. These are very
big heavy doors by the way. The hinges are external; surface mounted.

Sounds familiar.

The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

Possibly.

I feel that I ought to free the hinges.

Yes you should, before it's too late! ;-(

But how do I do this?

I'd say you have to get some lubrication in there.

WD40 has
failed.

I would always start such experiments with a REAL penetrating oil, not
WD40.

And is it possible that the hinges are meant to be very stiff,
to control the door?

I can't see how they could if it's *just* a steel pin in a cast
housing (as most of them are)?

In the case of my mates I took the hinges off, used heat and
penetrating oil to allow me to remove the broken off section and the
fixed bit from the other side and turned him a couple of new pins and
sent him on his way (to the airport as it happened)!

Cheers, T i m

Regualr lube might improve it some but that's probably all. Try ATF, that can free up even seized things. You might need to dilute it with acetone, white spirit etc to get it to run in.


NT

Bill Wright wrote

The hinges for the back doors of my Merc 709D

Fark, that would have to be the ugliest thing I have seen in a long time.

are incredibly stiff. If unbolted from the door it's hard to move them
by hand. These are very big heavy doors by the way. The hinges are
external; surface mounted. The pin in the hinges has domes caps with
a blind hole at each end. Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

I feel that I ought to free the hinges. But how do I do this?
WD40 has failed. And is it possible that the hinges are
meant to be very stiff, to control the door?

Have they always been that stiff from new or can you ask someone
who got theirs new about that if you bought yours used.

The bonnet hinges of my Hyundai Getz did get very stiff over the
12 years I have had it now. Never did get around to doing anything
about it because while stiff, it was still possible to open the bonnet.

Then during the last of our equivalents of your MOT, the fella who
did it asked me if I wanted him to fix it on the spot and since he
was less likely to find something to quibble over I just said 'sure'

He did use WD40 and an air hose and it took quite a while to free it up.

On Sunday, 10 June 2018 21:11:39 UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

Can you form a reservoir around the top of the hinge with plasticene (or similar) and fill it with lubricating oil to dribble down inside?

Owain

On 10/06/2018 21:11, Bill Wright wrote:
The hinges for the back doors of my Merc 709D are incredibly stiff. If
unbolted from the door it's hard to move them by hand. These are very
big heavy doors by the way. The hinges are external; surface mounted.
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

I feel that I ought to free the hinges. But how do I do this? WD40 has
failed. And is it possible that the hinges are meant to be very stiff,
to control the door?

Bill

Car hinges are normally roll pins. In your van, they might be solid. As
others have said, your problem is (lack of) lubrication. The clearance
has become blocked by corrosion products and/or fretting wear debris.
Because of the geometry, just spraying WD40 or even something better at
the "joints" may well not work. If it is possible, I would start by
unbolting them completely and soaking in the recipe of your choice for
at least a couple of days. "Recipe" could be Plus Gas, ATF + acetone,
diesel, or even for that matter WD40. After soaking for a while, apply
exercise until you notice an improvement. Then carry on soaking. Seek on
Mercedes forums whether (and if so how) the pins are removable; you
could be right, they may not be without using an angle grinder.

I've replaced roll pins a few times on older cars when they have become
sloppy enough to wear through a significant proportion of the material
(remember that the roll pin wall thickness is only a couple of
millimetres). The risk of one being significantly worn if you can't move
it is small. However there is a possible risk of fatigue in ones that
are stiff.

On my Renault Master, "door control" for the back doors is provided by a
separate strap (which can be disengaged to allow opening beyond 90
degrees). There's usually enough friction even in well lubricated doors
to prevent them from flapping about.

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On 10/06/2018 22:29, wrote:
On Sunday, 10 June 2018 21:11:39 UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

Can you form a reservoir around the top of the hinge with plasticene (or similar) and fill it with lubricating oil to dribble down inside?

Owain


Or drill out the blind hole in the top dome, fill with oil, and then
plug with epoxy or similar after getting it free? Option which removes
need to take them off.

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On Sun, 10 Jun 2018 23:56:13 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 10/06/2018 22:29, wrote:
On Sunday, 10 June 2018 21:11:39 UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

Can you form a reservoir around the top of the hinge with plasticene (or similar) and fill it with lubricating oil to dribble down inside?

Owain


Or drill out the blind hole in the top dome, fill with oil, and then
plug with epoxy or similar after getting it free? Option which removes
need to take them off.

I like that solution. ;-)

(Assuming they aren't nylon lined then a Teflon lube might be better
....), I'd start off with a real penetrating oil and hinge movement
between applications and once an improvement is detected, follow up
with some heavier oil.

The penetrating oil seems to create a 'path' and the heavier oil then
follows that.

Cheers, T i m

In message , T i m
writes
On Sun, 10 Jun 2018 23:56:13 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 10/06/2018 22:29, wrote:
On Sunday, 10 June 2018 21:11:39 UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

Can you form a reservoir around the top of the hinge with plasticene
(or similar) and fill it with lubricating oil to dribble down inside?

Owain


Or drill out the blind hole in the top dome, fill with oil, and then
plug with epoxy or similar after getting it free? Option which removes
need to take them off.

I like that solution. ;-)

(Assuming they aren't nylon lined then a Teflon lube might be better
...), I'd start off with a real penetrating oil and hinge movement
between applications and once an improvement is detected, follow up
with some heavier oil.

Is there any likelihood of Nylon being used as a bearing sleeve?

The stuff absorbs water and swells.

The penetrating oil seems to create a 'path' and the heavier oil then
follows that.

Cheers, T i m

--
Tim Lamb

On Mon, 11 Jun 2018 08:54:21 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

(Assuming they aren't nylon lined then a Teflon lube might be better
...), I'd start off with a real penetrating oil and hinge movement
between applications and once an improvement is detected, follow up
with some heavier oil.

Is there any likelihood of Nylon being used as a bearing sleeve?

Well, I have seen nylon (or a 'plastic' at least) lined hinges, pivots
and bushes and was going along with the thought that it may have been
ok for some time and then slowly got tighter?

The stuff absorbs water and swells.

I wonder what the rowlocks and crutches are made of on all our boats?
They look like a form of nylon and some places only say they are
'plastic' and others actually state 'nylon'?

https://www.sheridanmarine.com/produ...nylon-rowlocks

In fact, aren't most of the plastic bits on boats Nylon and you
couldn't get much more exposed to water than on a boat! ;-)

I've just had the bushes break on a cycle brake lever (I was trying to
bend the ally lever straight) and they too feel like nylon. Nylon has
give whilst being pretty tough and wear resistant?

Cheers, T i m

On Sunday, 10 June 2018 23:32:01 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
On 10/06/2018 21:11, Bill Wright wrote:
The hinges for the back doors of my Merc 709D are incredibly stiff. If
unbolted from the door it's hard to move them by hand. These are very
big heavy doors by the way. The hinges are external; surface mounted.
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

I feel that I ought to free the hinges. But how do I do this? WD40 has
failed. And is it possible that the hinges are meant to be very stiff,
to control the door?

Bill

Car hinges are normally roll pins. In your van, they might be solid. As
others have said, your problem is (lack of) lubrication. The clearance
has become blocked by corrosion products and/or fretting wear debris.
Because of the geometry, just spraying WD40 or even something better at
the "joints" may well not work. If it is possible, I would start by
unbolting them completely and soaking in the recipe of your choice for
at least a couple of days. "Recipe" could be Plus Gas, ATF + acetone,
diesel, or even for that matter WD40. After soaking for a while, apply
exercise until you notice an improvement. Then carry on soaking. Seek on
Mercedes forums whether (and if so how) the pins are removable; you
could be right, they may not be without using an angle grinder.

I've replaced roll pins a few times on older cars when they have become
sloppy enough to wear through a significant proportion of the material
(remember that the roll pin wall thickness is only a couple of
millimetres). The risk of one being significantly worn if you can't move
it is small. However there is a possible risk of fatigue in ones that
are stiff.

On my Renault Master, "door control" for the back doors is provided by a
separate strap (which can be disengaged to allow opening beyond 90
degrees). There's usually enough friction even in well lubricated doors
to prevent them from flapping about.

I would not remove the entire hinges. This will break the paint finish, leading to need for remedial work or to corrosion.

I would not use wd40 as a soak. WD-40 is not successful at this, and if you wanted to use it, just buying white spirit & adding a drop of oil is many times cheaper than buying it branded as WD40. If you look at tests of penetrating oils you'll see WD40 at the bottom of the league, with outcomes normally being failure. Why people keep recomending this junk I don't know.


NT

On 11/06/2018 02:09, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jun 2018 23:56:13 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 10/06/2018 22:29, wrote:
On Sunday, 10 June 2018 21:11:39 UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

Can you form a reservoir around the top of the hinge with plasticene (or similar) and fill it with lubricating oil to dribble down inside?

Owain


Or drill out the blind hole in the top dome, fill with oil, and then
plug with epoxy or similar after getting it free? Option which removes
need to take them off.

I like that solution. ;-)

(Assuming they aren't nylon lined then a Teflon lube might be better
...), I'd start off with a real penetrating oil and hinge movement
between applications and once an improvement is detected, follow up
with some heavier oil.

The penetrating oil seems to create a 'path' and the heavier oil then
follows that.

Cheers, T i m

I think they are unlikely to be nylon lined as the loads are fairly
high, and even filled nylon is likely to creep and extrude at modest
stresses.

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On 11/06/2018 10:24, wrote:
On Sunday, 10 June 2018 23:32:01 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
On 10/06/2018 21:11, Bill Wright wrote:


I would not remove the entire hinges. This will break the paint finish, leading to need for remedial work or to corrosion.

On one of my vehicles the tailgate hinges unbolt from the body but were
integral with the door. So by taking the door off, you could actually
soak both hinges completely in small pots of oil.


I would not use wd40 as a soak. WD-40 is not successful at this, and if you wanted to use it, just buying white spirit & adding a drop of oil is many times cheaper than buying it branded as WD40. If you look at tests of penetrating oils you'll see WD40 at the bottom of the league, with outcomes normally being failure. Why people keep recomending this junk I don't know.


Because a lot of people have it to hand, and the aerosol applicator is
convenient for many things. I agree, you could "make your own" from
white spirit and some gear oil. And I agree that Plus Gas and other
custom penetrating oils are better (although they are arguably not so
good for other jobs). But it is still the case that WD40 will often free
up something which is not too badly stuck.


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On 6/10/2018 9:11 PM, Bill Wright wrote:
The hinges for the back doors of my Merc 709D are incredibly stiff. If
unbolted from the door it's hard to move them by hand. These are very
big heavy doors by the way. The hinges are external; surface mounted.
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

I feel that I ought to free the hinges. But how do I do this? WD40 has
failed. And is it possible that the hinges are meant to be very stiff,
to control the door?

Bill
deep creep

--
Living the post amateur radio nightmare ...
Rejecting the coffee culture...
Rejecting the addiction of the smart 'phone ...
Resisting network radios ...
Resisting the Apple culture...
Hating DIGITAL ...
Hate Facebook...
Hate Twitter ...

On 11/06/2018 15:24, newshound wrote:
On 11/06/2018 10:24, wrote:

I would not use wd40 as a soak. WD-40 is not successful at this, and
if you wanted to use it, just buying white spirit & adding a drop of
oil is many times cheaper than buying it branded as WD40. If you look
at tests of penetrating oils you'll see WD40 at the bottom of the
league, with outcomes normally being failure. Why people keep
recomending this junk I don't know.


Because a lot of people have it to hand, and the aerosol applicator is
convenient for many things. I agree, you could "make your own" from
white spirit and some gear oil. And I agree that Plus Gas and other
custom penetrating oils are better (although they are arguably not so
good for other jobs). But it is still the case that WD40 will often free
up something which is not too badly stuck.

WD40 MAY well be OK for YOU, but it is a water displacer NOT a lubricant
(penetrating or otherwise).
Some people regard it as a go-to lubricant but just because you have
it/it is readily available, does NOT mean it is the best stuff to use.

It is relatively expensive and not that brilliant but even 3-in-1 is
preferable as a penetrating oil.

On Monday, 11 June 2018 17:04:53 UTC+1, soup wrote:
On 11/06/2018 15:24, newshound wrote:
On 11/06/2018 10:24, tabbypurr wrote:

I would not use wd40 as a soak. WD-40 is not successful at this, and
if you wanted to use it, just buying white spirit & adding a drop of
oil is many times cheaper than buying it branded as WD40. If you look
at tests of penetrating oils you'll see WD40 at the bottom of the
league, with outcomes normally being failure. Why people keep
recomending this junk I don't know.


Because a lot of people have it to hand, and the aerosol applicator is
convenient for many things. I agree, you could "make your own" from
white spirit and some gear oil. And I agree that Plus Gas and other
custom penetrating oils are better (although they are arguably not so
good for other jobs). But it is still the case that WD40 will often free
up something which is not too badly stuck.

WD40 MAY well be OK for YOU, but it is a water displacer NOT a lubricant
(penetrating or otherwise).
Some people regard it as a go-to lubricant but just because you have
it/it is readily available, does NOT mean it is the best stuff to use.

It is relatively expensive and not that brilliant but even 3-in-1 is
preferable as a penetrating oil.

As a lubricant, WD-40 is the worst thing going. It's nearly 100% not lubricant.
As a penetrating oil, it simply isn't. Tests comparing pen oil formulae consistently show it's the worst, and does not do the job.
So... what use is it? Seems to me the mfrs have done a very good marketing job on what is basically white spirit with huge markup. White spirit is at least as widely available as WD. And most of us have some sort of oil at least, all of which are more effective than WD.


NT

On 10/06/2018 21:11, Bill Wright wrote:
The hinges for the back doors of my Merc 709D are incredibly stiff. If
unbolted from the door it's hard to move them by hand. These are very
big heavy doors by the way. The hinges are external; surface mounted.
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

I feel that I ought to free the hinges. But how do I do this? WD40 has
failed. And is it possible that the hinges are meant to be very stiff,
to control the door?

Bill

I asked James at the garage. He said, take them off, soak them in diesel
for a few days, work them. Repeat. If this fails get them very very hot
then work them, then whilst still hot chuck them in the diesel.

Bill

On Sunday, 10 June 2018 21:11:39 UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
The hinges for the back doors of my Merc 709D are incredibly stiff. If
unbolted from the door it's hard to move them by hand. These are very
big heavy doors by the way. The hinges are external; surface mounted.
The pin in the hinges has domes caps with a blind hole at each end.
Presumably they are meant to be thief proof.

I feel that I ought to free the hinges. But how do I do this? WD40 has
failed. And is it possible that the hinges are meant to be very stiff,
to control the door?

Bill

They probably have a weather seal to keep the rain out (and WD40)
Can you not drill holes in the caps and put WD40 in that way?
The hole would need to be blocked off afterwards with some sort og jollop.

In message ,
writes
On Monday, 11 June 2018 17:04:53 UTC+1, soup wrote:
On 11/06/2018 15:24, newshound wrote:
On 11/06/2018 10:24, tabbypurr wrote:

I would not use wd40 as a soak. WD-40 is not successful at this, and
if you wanted to use it, just buying white spirit & adding a drop of
oil is many times cheaper than buying it branded as WD40. If you look
at tests of penetrating oils you'll see WD40 at the bottom of the
league, with outcomes normally being failure. Why people keep
recomending this junk I don't know.


Because a lot of people have it to hand, and the aerosol applicator is
convenient for many things. I agree, you could "make your own" from
white spirit and some gear oil. And I agree that Plus Gas and other
custom penetrating oils are better (although they are arguably not so
good for other jobs). But it is still the case that WD40 will often free
up something which is not too badly stuck.

WD40 MAY well be OK for YOU, but it is a water displacer NOT a lubricant
(penetrating or otherwise).
Some people regard it as a go-to lubricant but just because you have
it/it is readily available, does NOT mean it is the best stuff to use.

It is relatively expensive and not that brilliant but even 3-in-1 is
preferable as a penetrating oil.

As a lubricant, WD-40 is the worst thing going. It's nearly 100% not lubricant.
As a penetrating oil, it simply isn't. Tests comparing pen oil formulae
consistently show it's the worst, and does not do the job.
So... what use is it? Seems to me the mfrs have done a very good
marketing job on what is basically white spirit with huge markup. White
spirit is at least as widely available as WD. And most of us have some
sort of oil at least, all of which are more effective than WD.

Marketing:-)

Does work well protecting metal surfaces from condensation/corrosion and
where the aerosol action may reach inaccessible areas.

--
Tim Lamb

On Tuesday, 12 June 2018 08:19:03 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
tabbypurr writes
On Monday, 11 June 2018 17:04:53 UTC+1, soup wrote:
On 11/06/2018 15:24, newshound wrote:
On 11/06/2018 10:24, tabbypurr wrote:

I would not use wd40 as a soak. WD-40 is not successful at this, and
if you wanted to use it, just buying white spirit & adding a drop of
oil is many times cheaper than buying it branded as WD40. If you look
at tests of penetrating oils you'll see WD40 at the bottom of the
league, with outcomes normally being failure. Why people keep
recomending this junk I don't know.


Because a lot of people have it to hand, and the aerosol applicator is
convenient for many things. I agree, you could "make your own" from
white spirit and some gear oil. And I agree that Plus Gas and other
custom penetrating oils are better (although they are arguably not so
good for other jobs). But it is still the case that WD40 will often free
up something which is not too badly stuck.

WD40 MAY well be OK for YOU, but it is a water displacer NOT a lubricant
(penetrating or otherwise).
Some people regard it as a go-to lubricant but just because you have
it/it is readily available, does NOT mean it is the best stuff to use.

It is relatively expensive and not that brilliant but even 3-in-1 is
preferable as a penetrating oil.

As a lubricant, WD-40 is the worst thing going. It's nearly 100% not lubricant.
As a penetrating oil, it simply isn't. Tests comparing pen oil formulae
consistently show it's the worst, and does not do the job.
So... what use is it? Seems to me the mfrs have done a very good
marketing job on what is basically white spirit with huge markup. White
spirit is at least as widely available as WD. And most of us have some
sort of oil at least, all of which are more effective than WD.

Marketing:-)

Does work well protecting metal surfaces from condensation/corrosion

sure, the result is the same as using any type of oil only less effective. A superthin film of oil is what it delivers once the spirit has evaporated.

and
where the aerosol action may reach inaccessible areas.

Aerosol can be useful sometimes, but I can't remember when I last needed to aerosol spray a very very thin mix of oil anywhere.

It's nothing but marketing bs.


NT

On 12/06/2018 03:38, Bill Wright wrote:
I asked James at the garage. He said, take them off, soak them in diesel
for a few days, work them. Repeat. If this fails get them very very hot
then work them, then whilst still hot chuck them in the diesel.

Bill

Oxy-acetylene is the standards garage cop-out.

I had a Peugeot 305 estate a few years ago that needed new rear
brake pipes. The ones on the trailing suspension arms. Rather than
fiddle about they removed the trailing arms just to make it easier
for themselves.

This is no mean feat on an aging Pug 305, where the coil springs
are horizontal, with very thick coils and need a special spring
compressor. The knuckle joint at the bearing end of the swinging
arm is invariably rusted so they used the oxy trick and that
boiled all the grease out of the radius bearings which then started
knocking a couple of years later.

They were a Pug main agent too.

On 12/06/2018 06:26, harry wrote:

They probably have a weather seal to keep the rain out (and WD40)
Can you not drill holes in the caps and put WD40 in that way?
The hole would need to be blocked off afterwards with some sort og jollop.


I did wonder about something like that

Bill