When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed they
did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W and
decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

Having installed it, it looks good- as bright as the two existing tubes.

Plan is to replace the rest (2 more in garage and 2 in workshop) when I
next visit Screwfix.

On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:58:26 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed they
did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W and
decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

Having installed it, it looks good- as bright as the two existing tubes.

Plan is to replace the rest (2 more in garage and 2 in workshop) when I
next visit Screwfix.

Wouldn't it be wise to wait a bit and see if these suffer the same
uncharacteristically short life as your conventional tubes (as I
believe that was why you were looking for an alternative)?

Cheers, T i m

On 06/06/2018 21:29, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:58:26 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed they
did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W and
decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

Having installed it, it looks good- as bright as the two existing tubes.

Plan is to replace the rest (2 more in garage and 2 in workshop) when I
next visit Screwfix.

Wouldn't it be wise to wait a bit and see if these suffer the same
uncharacteristically short life as your conventional tubes (as I
believe that was why you were looking for an alternative)?

I suspect the problem is that the fittings are old, T12, types and I'm
using T8 tubes- ARW's post provided the clue. Some other tubes, used in
a suspended ceiling, haven't given any trouble in 20 years (since we
bought the house). They've just been removed (part of a bathroom
replacement) and are the larger diameter, T12, style.

We have CFLs in several other places and they've been fine.

On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:02:00 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

On 06/06/2018 21:29, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:58:26 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed
they did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W
and decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

I think the 'special' starter switch is just a dummy starter with no
innards. They're intended to remove the temptation to fill the otherwise
empty hole with an actual starter switch.


Having installed it, it looks good- as bright as the two existing
tubes.

IIRC, the later T12 in the 5 foot size had a rating of 65W whilst their
T8 successors (which can work with a cheap ballasted with starter switch
fitting) were rated at 58W. I think the original 1940s lamps had an 80W
rating.


Plan is to replace the rest (2 more in garage and 2 in workshop) when
I next visit Screwfix.

Wouldn't it be wise to wait a bit and see if these suffer the same
uncharacteristically short life as your conventional tubes (as I
believe that was why you were looking for an alternative)?

A LED replacement tube won't suffer the T8 tubes' fate.


I suspect the problem is that the fittings are old, T12, types and I'm
using T8 tubes- ARW's post provided the clue. Some other tubes, used in
a suspended ceiling, haven't given any trouble in 20 years (since we
bought the house). They've just been removed (part of a bathroom
replacement) and are the larger diameter, T12, style.

We have CFLs in several other places and they've been fine.

JOOI, did those tubes you've just decommissioned after 20 years of
faultless service, happen to light up with no flicker within a quarter of
a second of being switched on?

--
Johnny B Good

On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:27:42 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:02:00 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

On 06/06/2018 21:29, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:58:26 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed
they did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W
and decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

I think the 'special' starter switch is just a dummy starter with no
innards. They're intended to remove the temptation to fill the otherwise
empty hole with an actual starter switch.


Having installed it, it looks good- as bright as the two existing
tubes.

IIRC, the later T12 in the 5 foot size had a rating of 65W whilst their
T8 successors (which can work with a cheap ballasted with starter switch
fitting) were rated at 58W. I think the original 1940s lamps had an 80W
rating.

I thought someone (here) said that some of these newer (T8) tubes were
designed to work (safely) in the older fittings designed for T12 tubes
(or somesuch)?

snip

Cheers, T i m

On Wednesday, 6 June 2018 23:39:37 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:27:42 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:02:00 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:
On 06/06/2018 21:29, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:58:26 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed
they did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W
and decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

I think the 'special' starter switch is just a dummy starter with no
innards. They're intended to remove the temptation to fill the otherwise
empty hole with an actual starter switch.


Having installed it, it looks good- as bright as the two existing
tubes.

IIRC, the later T12 in the 5 foot size had a rating of 65W whilst their
T8 successors (which can work with a cheap ballasted with starter switch
fitting) were rated at 58W. I think the original 1940s lamps had an 80W
rating.

I thought someone (here) said that some of these newer (T8) tubes were
designed to work (safely) in the older fittings designed for T12 tubes
(or somesuch)?

snip

Cheers, T i m

they were, that was a big part of the whole point of T8s, they were intended to be a drop-in replacement. I don't believe T8s in a T12 fixture should be a problem.

And even if (theoretically, they don't IRL) 58w tubes were ran at 65w it wouldn't cause significant loss of life expectancy. You have to deviate by 20% before significant life shortening is seen.


NT

On 06/06/2018 23:27, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:02:00 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:


I suspect the problem is that the fittings are old, T12, types and I'm
using T8 tubes- ARW's post provided the clue. Some other tubes, used in
a suspended ceiling, haven't given any trouble in 20 years (since we
bought the house). They've just been removed (part of a bathroom
replacement) and are the larger diameter, T12, style.

We have CFLs in several other places and they've been fine.

JOOI, did those tubes you've just decommissioned after 20 years of
faultless service, happen to light up with no flicker within a quarter of
a second of being switched on?


No, they didn't fail but where 'slow' sometimes with a flicker when
starting.

They had conventional starters. I have replaced a couple of the
starters in the garage with 'electronic' ones. I can't say I've noticed
any real difference. I put the new LED tube in the remaining garage
fitting with an old starter.

I've not been impressed by LED lamps in the house until recently. The
new bathroom has LED lights which are good and now this tube. I've a few
'smart' LED bulbs (Philips and Ikea) controlled by Alexa- they aren't
bad. Previously I've always been disappointed by the output.

--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

On 06/06/2018 23:27, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:02:00 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

On 06/06/2018 21:29, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:58:26 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed
they did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W
and decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

I think the 'special' starter switch is just a dummy starter with no
innards. They're intended to remove the temptation to fill the otherwise
empty hole with an actual starter switch.

No. It is actually required to avoid rewiring the fitting.

On a fluorescent, voltage is applied to the tube by one pin at each end
and the ionised gas conducts along the tube. For starting, each end has
a second pin and there is a heater coil between the pair of pins. A
starter temporarily shorts the second pins at each end together,
completing a circuit (Live - Heater one - Starter - Heater two -
Neutral). Once the tube has struck, the starter cuts out and the circuit
is broken, leaving only the gas to conduct.

When the tube is replaced by an LED one, the driver is connected between
the two pins at one end of the tube. The two pins at the other end are
connected together. The dummy starter is just a permanent link. The
circuit goes Live - Driver circuit (in one end of tube) - Dummy starter
- Linked pins (in other end of tube) - Neutral.

It simply makes LED tubes a direct replacement for the general public.
The alternative is not to use dummy starters and to re-wire the fittings
internally.

SteveW

I cannot understand this short life of the old tubes either. One would have
to have them on and of tens of times a day to make them fail as was stated.
it almost sounds like the fittings have some odd kind of design fault ie not
turning off the heaters in a timely fashion or something, often the give
away are prematurely black ends in the tube.
I cannot think though that such a fault would affect LEDs as there is no
starter mechanism involved exterior to the actual tube itself.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:58:26 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed they
did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W and
decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

Having installed it, it looks good- as bright as the two existing tubes.

Plan is to replace the rest (2 more in garage and 2 in workshop) when I
next visit Screwfix.

Wouldn't it be wise to wait a bit and see if these suffer the same
uncharacteristically short life as your conventional tubes (as I
believe that was why you were looking for an alternative)?

Cheers, T i m

The only issues I have had with cfts and leds is the noise they generate in
the radio spectrum. Not all do this and I suspect once again its cheap
switch mode psus with little interference suppression or good design, ie if
it lights and does not go bang then its fine, kind of engineering.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Brian Reay" wrote in message
news
On 06/06/2018 21:29, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:58:26 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed they
did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W and
decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

Having installed it, it looks good- as bright as the two existing tubes.

Plan is to replace the rest (2 more in garage and 2 in workshop) when I
next visit Screwfix.

Wouldn't it be wise to wait a bit and see if these suffer the same
uncharacteristically short life as your conventional tubes (as I
believe that was why you were looking for an alternative)?

I suspect the problem is that the fittings are old, T12, types and I'm
using T8 tubes- ARW's post provided the clue. Some other tubes, used in a
suspended ceiling, haven't given any trouble in 20 years (since we bought
the house). They've just been removed (part of a bathroom replacement) and
are the larger diameter, T12, style.

We have CFLs in several other places and they've been fine.

Well I still have three Thorne fittings with the thicker tubes and although
these days they are little used for obvious reasons, in the past my main
gripe was hum from them when they were on. i guess this would go away if I
replaced the tubes with LED ones that fitted the 4ft sockets and took away
the starter.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:27:42 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:02:00 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

On 06/06/2018 21:29, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:58:26 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed
they did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W
and decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

I think the 'special' starter switch is just a dummy starter with no
innards. They're intended to remove the temptation to fill the otherwise
empty hole with an actual starter switch.


Having installed it, it looks good- as bright as the two existing
tubes.

IIRC, the later T12 in the 5 foot size had a rating of 65W whilst their
T8 successors (which can work with a cheap ballasted with starter switch
fitting) were rated at 58W. I think the original 1940s lamps had an 80W
rating.

I thought someone (here) said that some of these newer (T8) tubes were
designed to work (safely) in the older fittings designed for T12 tubes
(or somesuch)?

snip

Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, 7 June 2018 09:10:25 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
Well I still have three Thorne fittings with the thicker tubes and although
these days they are little used for obvious reasons, in the past my main
gripe was hum from them when they were on. i guess this would go away if I
replaced the tubes with LED ones that fitted the 4ft sockets and took away
the starter.
Brian

no, you left the humming ballasts in circuit.


NT

On 07/06/18 09:00, Brian Gaff wrote:
I cannot understand this short life of the old tubes either. One would have
to have them on and of tens of times a day to make them fail as was stated.
it almost sounds like the fittings have some odd kind of design fault ie not
turning off the heaters in a timely fashion or something, often the give
away are prematurely black ends in the tube.
I cannot think though that such a fault would affect LEDs as there is no
starter mechanism involved exterior to the actual tube itself.
Brian


ARW suggested that T8 tubes can suffer in T12 fittings. I suspect, the
garage fittings may be T12 ones. I assume they were fitted when the
house was built (mid 80s). The bathroom which has just bee revamped was
original and had large dia tubes above a suspected ceiling. While I
never replaced the tubes in the bathroom (at least as far as I recall)
in the 21 years we've been here, I've replaced numerous tubes in the
garage. Having said that, the bathroom has a window and so the light
isn't always used, plus we have another bathroom. The garage lights are
possibly used more often as there is no natural light and, besides being
a garage, it has a utility area, freezers, and is used as a work shop -
besides for a garage.

We have some halogen lights which are also prone to short life. The
fittings have two 40W G9 (I think bulbs). I've tried LED versions but
the light output is disappointing. We really like the fittings and I'm
considering modifying them to take a different bulb. Possibly a 2D LED
panel (the fittings are square and look about the right size).

On Thu, 07 Jun 2018 07:07:50 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

On 06/06/2018 23:27, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:02:00 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:


I suspect the problem is that the fittings are old, T12, types and I'm
using T8 tubes- ARW's post provided the clue. Some other tubes, used
in a suspended ceiling, haven't given any trouble in 20 years (since
we bought the house). They've just been removed (part of a bathroom
replacement) and are the larger diameter, T12, style.

We have CFLs in several other places and they've been fine.

JOOI, did those tubes you've just decommissioned after 20 years of
faultless service, happen to light up with no flicker within a quarter
of a second of being switched on?


No, they didn't fail but where 'slow' sometimes with a flicker when
starting.

Interesting. I was wondering whether the fittings were using
"Quickstart"(tm) ballasts which would have neatly explained their long
life. Obviously not. In fact that seems more like the behaviour of my 5
foot T8 tube in my office fitting using a selected starter to get it fire
up at all (the Quickstart upgrade had to be downgraded since T8 tubes
just sit there like dummies in a QS ballasted fitting).

I've never seen the 5 foot tubes (both T12 and T8) do the classic flash,
flash, fla****y flash startup sequence of the switch start 4 foot
fittings, it just sits there with no indication it's been switched on for
4 to 6 seconds before it springs into life as if nothing was wrong. Since
this is rarely cycled on and off more than twice in an evening, it's just
not worth fretting over.


They had conventional starters. I have replaced a couple of the
starters in the garage with 'electronic' ones. I can't say I've noticed
any real difference. I put the new LED tube in the remaining garage
fitting with an old starter.

Those last four words had me confused. I'm guessing you really meant
"old fashioned switch start fitting" rather than the implied LED tube and
an old starter switch. :-)


I've not been impressed by LED lamps in the house until recently. The
new bathroom has LED lights which are good and now this tube. I've a few
'smart' LED bulbs (Philips and Ikea) controlled by Alexa- they aren't
bad. Previously I've always been disappointed by the output.

Until now, you had justification for not being impressed with *most* LED
GLS lamps being foisted on the all too trusting shopper. It's true you
could get genuinely "60W (the better American 810lm standard)
incandescent equivalent" LEDs which outshone the 20W CFL versions for a
mere 12W (claimed - it was more like 14W - still less than the dimmer CFL
version) when the 81LPW lamps first started to appear about 5 years ago.
This was about the limit until just over a year back when the 125LPW
"100W 1500lm equivalent" GLS lamps appeared in Home Bargains stores at
£2.99 a pop (still their current price).

The limiting factor regarding the incandescent wattage equivalency is
the much lower maximum temperature limit of the lamp (circa 80 deg C
versus the 200 or degrees of a classic tungsten filament lamp). The
better the LPW performance, the more light you can get for your watt and
the less of that energy input is turned into heat.

People had overheating issues trying to use the brightest available LED
lamps of the day if they overlooked the ventilation requirements in
fittings that restricted the free flow of air which wasn't an issue with
incandescents which could compensate by running 10 to 20 degrees hotter,
not something you could do with an LED which may already have been within
5 degrees of its limiting maximum temperature in a freely ventilated
fitting to begin with.

As LED lamp technology improvements approach the 303LPW figure reached
in Cree's Labs just over four years ago, this overheating will become
less of an issue and the lamps more likely to meet their promised 20 to
30 thousand hour lifetime ratings.

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
ARW suggested that T8 tubes can suffer in T12 fittings. I suspect, the
garage fittings may be T12 ones.

I've got a twin 6ft fitting in the cellar. One tube is the original basic
white T12 and the other a replacement T8 basic white from TLC. The T8
comes on some time after the T12 - and never looks as bright, despite
being shed loads newer. It does eventually get a bit brighter than at
first, though.

(at one time I used the cellar as a workshop, but is now just storage, so
haven't bothered sorting things.)

--
*Ever stop to think and forget to start again?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 07/06/2018 16:10, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jun 2018 07:07:50 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

On 06/06/2018 23:27, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:02:00 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:


I suspect the problem is that the fittings are old, T12, types and I'm
using T8 tubes- ARW's post provided the clue. Some other tubes, used
in a suspended ceiling, haven't given any trouble in 20 years (since
we bought the house). They've just been removed (part of a bathroom
replacement) and are the larger diameter, T12, style.

We have CFLs in several other places and they've been fine.

JOOI, did those tubes you've just decommissioned after 20 years of
faultless service, happen to light up with no flicker within a quarter
of a second of being switched on?


No, they didn't fail but where 'slow' sometimes with a flicker when
starting.

Interesting. I was wondering whether the fittings were using
"Quickstart"(tm) ballasts which would have neatly explained their long
life. Obviously not. In fact that seems more like the behaviour of my 5
foot T8 tube in my office fitting using a selected starter to get it fire
up at all (the Quickstart upgrade had to be downgraded since T8 tubes
just sit there like dummies in a QS ballasted fitting).

I've never seen the 5 foot tubes (both T12 and T8) do the classic flash,
flash, fla****y flash startup sequence of the switch start 4 foot
fittings, it just sits there with no indication it's been switched on for
4 to 6 seconds before it springs into life as if nothing was wrong. Since
this is rarely cycled on and off more than twice in an evening, it's just
not worth fretting over.


They had conventional starters. I have replaced a couple of the
starters in the garage with 'electronic' ones. I can't say I've noticed
any real difference. I put the new LED tube in the remaining garage
fitting with an old starter.

Those last four words had me confused. I'm guessing you really meant
"old fashioned switch start fitting" rather than the implied LED tube and
an old starter switch. :-)



Yes, it could have been more clear. Try: I put the new tube in the
fitting which still had an old style starter in it, which I replaced
with the special (dummy) one supplied.

I had noticed the ones with electronic starters seemed to last longer.

(I'm not sure why I didn't replace all the starters. I suspect the
supplier didn't have stock at the time and I didn't get around to it.)


--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

On 06/06/2018 23:27, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 22:02:00 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

On 06/06/2018 21:29, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:58:26 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

When checking the Screwfix catalogue for something else, I noticed
they did 5ft LED tubes for £14.99, claimed to be equivalent to 100W
and decided to try one.

They come with a 'special' started (a fuse it seems) and you can then
just fit without any rewiring. (I may remove the ballast later.)

I think the 'special' starter switch is just a dummy starter with no
innards. They're intended to remove the temptation to fill the otherwise
empty hole with an actual starter switch.

They are shorting links and may use a fuse so they blow if you put a
normal tube in.

The normal replacement tube has mains in on the two pins at one end.
The other end has two pins shorted together.

The result is

live in ballast
ballast one pin at end
the other pin starter
the starter one pin at other end
other pin neutral

Thus the tube gets L&N whichever way around it is. There is some drop in
the choke but not enough to stop the tube working.

The choke was falling to bits in the last one I did so I removed
everything and its just L&N to one end but it will only work one way around.

Its labelled so its OK for anyone that can read and the fuse and
probably the heater will blow if someone puts a normal tube in.