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Deep discharge battery suppliers?
I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite
well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:57:33 +0000, newshound
wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). Ok. I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". From new? However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. Hmmmm ... 'try not to run them right down ...'? ;-( Now that might mean you *are* managing the discharge process accurately (in which case, that's fine but doesn't explain the low cycle count) or you are doing exactly what you say and possibly / potentially over-discharging the batteries and hence the poor cycle life? ;-( Given that they don't recommend discharging even 'deep discharge' batteries to below 50% of their nominal capacity (and that depends on many things including age and temperature). I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. I think I'd like to hear how you are actually protecting the batteries first (and you may well be etc) before recommending you spend any money anywhere? ;-) Cheers, T i m |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 09:20, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:57:33 +0000, newshound wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). Ok. I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". From new? However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. Hmmmm ... 'try not to run them right down ...'? ;-( Now that might mean you *are* managing the discharge process accurately (in which case, that's fine but doesn't explain the low cycle count) or you are doing exactly what you say and possibly / potentially over-discharging the batteries and hence the poor cycle life? ;-( Given that they don't recommend discharging even 'deep discharge' batteries to below 50% of their nominal capacity (and that depends on many things including age and temperature). I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. I think I'd like to hear how you are actually protecting the batteries first (and you may well be etc) before recommending you spend any money anywhere? ;-) Cheers, T i m Fair comments. Low battery voltage becomes obvious when some of the CFLs don't strike properly (the fencers have a "low voltage" warning light). I don't have a rigorous process of checking voltage, it's not completely straightforward anyway because I find the system runs fine using car batteries with a single shorted cell. So I *might* be over-discharging them somewhat, which is why I wonder whether going to "proper" deep discharge batteries might be better. Typically, I might repurpose a car battery if it seems to be getting sluggish at the start of winter (after maybe five years in the vehicle) and these batteries are usually lasting better than new "Leisure" ones, so I don't think my battery management can be too bad. I've tried using a "multi-led" battery condition indicator as something a bit simpler than a proper DVM, but it didn't last long. I'm about to change one of the stable units over entirely to LEDs which seem to give adequate light from much lower current, so I might try running that one on ten rechargable AAs. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
newshound wrote:
I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? I've had excellent service from Tayna batteries for several different types of lead-acid batteries. A lot of the solar experimenters use second hand forklift, milkfloat even submarine batteries. Lurking on the Navitron forum might throw up sources for these. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 09:57:13 +0000, newshound
wrote: On 13/03/2018 09:20, T i m wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:57:33 +0000, newshound wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). Ok. I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". From new? However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. Hmmmm ... 'try not to run them right down ...'? ;-( Now that might mean you *are* managing the discharge process accurately (in which case, that's fine but doesn't explain the low cycle count) or you are doing exactly what you say and possibly / potentially over-discharging the batteries and hence the poor cycle life? ;-( Given that they don't recommend discharging even 'deep discharge' batteries to below 50% of their nominal capacity (and that depends on many things including age and temperature). I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. I think I'd like to hear how you are actually protecting the batteries first (and you may well be etc) before recommending you spend any money anywhere? ;-) Cheers, T i m Fair comments. And partly from bitter / expensive experience. ;-( Low battery voltage becomes obvious when some of the CFLs don't strike properly And possibly already sitting on an 'over discharged battery. (the fencers have a "low voltage" warning light). Interesting to know what voltage they consider 'low' Colin? I don't have a rigorous process of checking voltage, it's not completely straightforward anyway because I find the system runs fine using car batteries with a single shorted cell. Hmm ... so 'stuff still works' with a ~10V battery. This suggests it could be very easy to over discharged a ~12V battery before you know it's getting low? So I *might* be over-discharging them somewhat, which is why I wonder whether going to "proper" deep discharge batteries might be better. No. No LA battery is going to survive what could be considered as 'abuse'. All you will be doing is spending more money on lower capacity. http://pvcdrom.pveducation.org/BATTERY/charlead.htm If these batteries are our of sight / earshot what I would like to see is some form of Low Voltage Disconnect that take the responsibility of protecting these batteries away from you (one). ;-) You can get them cheap enough for the sorts of currents you are talking about and can come with an audible alarm if you are within earshot. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B019DRXC..._t3_B019DRR9G8 The thing is, if you have a fairly light load you might find that even getting down to 11V is actually too low? Typically, I might repurpose a car battery if it seems to be getting sluggish at the start of winter (after maybe five years in the vehicle) and these batteries are usually lasting better than new "Leisure" ones, so I don't think my battery management can be too bad. 'Management ...' ;-) I've tried using a "multi-led" battery condition indicator as something a bit simpler than a proper DVM, but it didn't last long. Unless you leave either on 24/7 (making the problem worse) and monitor it regularly I'm not sure it would help. I'm about to change one of the stable units over entirely to LEDs which seem to give adequate light from much lower current, so I might try running that one on ten rechargable AAs. At least if you weren't using LA then you might not damage the cells so much but most would still enjoy proper protection if you wanted to enjoy the best life out of them. Unless you have some form of automatic charging system that could equal or better the worst case load, IMHO, you really need some sort of LVD. If you use solar charging there are many small charge controllers that disconnect the load if the battery voltage drops too low. Cheers, T i m |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Tuesday, 13 March 2018 09:57:16 UTC, newshound wrote:
On 13/03/2018 09:20, T i m wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:57:33 +0000, newshound wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). Ok. I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". From new? However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. Hmmmm ... 'try not to run them right down ...'? ;-( Now that might mean you *are* managing the discharge process accurately (in which case, that's fine but doesn't explain the low cycle count) or you are doing exactly what you say and possibly / potentially over-discharging the batteries and hence the poor cycle life? ;-( Given that they don't recommend discharging even 'deep discharge' batteries to below 50% of their nominal capacity (and that depends on many things including age and temperature). I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. I think I'd like to hear how you are actually protecting the batteries first (and you may well be etc) before recommending you spend any money anywhere? ;-) Cheers, T i m Fair comments. Low battery voltage becomes obvious when some of the CFLs don't strike properly (the fencers have a "low voltage" warning light). I don't have a rigorous process of checking voltage, it's not completely straightforward anyway because I find the system runs fine using car batteries with a single shorted cell. So I *might* be over-discharging them somewhat, which is why I wonder whether going to "proper" deep discharge batteries might be better. Typically, I might repurpose a car battery if it seems to be getting sluggish at the start of winter (after maybe five years in the vehicle) and these batteries are usually lasting better than new "Leisure" ones, so I don't think my battery management can be too bad. I've tried using a "multi-led" battery condition indicator as something a bit simpler than a proper DVM, but it didn't last long. I'm about to change one of the stable units over entirely to LEDs which seem to give adequate light from much lower current, so I might try running that one on ten rechargable AAs. Your discharge protection system is nonfunctional and useless. You need a voltmeter at the minimum, preferably an auto disconnecting whatsit that you can set to a suitable voltage. If you're discharging them until the CFL won't strike you're discharging them way too far. No lead acid will surive that, and going to a smaller battery will worsen things considerably. Then you need to look at the charging setup, to see whether that's ok. Those are the 2 main things that make the difference to battery life. I don't know whether you could add some sort of smart control to the lights, if quick acting PIRs meant each light was only on half the time that would halve your energy use. PIRs work fine with LEDs, not so well with CFL. NT |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/18 08:57, newshound wrote:
I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? All the people I know who have bought deep discharge have been dsssapointed with them. Short lifetime when deep discharged! I would be inclined myself to make up a relay circuit that shuts off *normal* batteries at say 11.5V or so... And just use two cheaper ines! -- Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas? Josef Stalin |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
In article ,
newshound wrote: I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. At one time I was supplying some equipment for broadcast mobile use. Size and weight wasn't a problem, as it stayed in the van. But reliability and overall costs were - since the costs came out of my hire fee. And FWIW, I found decent quality car batteries of an adequate size - never discharged to more than about half - were far better value than specialist deep discharge types. Perhaps because of economy of production numbers. Could be the fact that the load was pretty constant and couldn't exceed what I'd measured and therefore easy to calculate how big batteries needed made it different from yours, though. And that it was re-charged overnight after use. -- *"I am " is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 08:57, newshound wrote:
I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? No battery likes to be deeply discharged. To avoid this you should use a battery that is oversized for the job. That means that each discharge cycle will not discharge it as deeply as it would a smaller battery. The damage occurs when a discharged battery just stands for days in the discharged state, so avoid this. It would help if you had solar panels, just to give the batteries a bit of a charge every day. Alternatively: Since you go to the stable yard in a vehicle, how about having an auxiliary battery in the vehicle, charged automatically from the vehicle by a volt sensing relay? That battery could be connected to your stable battery while you're there via an 12V to mains inverter and main-input charger. If you mount the inverter in the vehicle (really useful anyway) and the charger near the stable battery you could run a long mains extension to connect them (to avoid the voltage drop of running a long 12V lead). This arrangement would put the load (the lights etc) on the vehicle aux battery and also charge the stable battery. If all this seems a bit complicated it isn't really and I can help you choose an inverter etc. This idea won't work unless the vehicle has decent length journeys quite often. Bill |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 14:32, Bill Wright wrote:
On 13/03/2018 08:57, newshound wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? No battery likes to be deeply discharged. To avoid this you should use a battery that is oversized for the job. That means that each discharge cycle will not discharge it as deeply as it would a smaller battery. The damage occurs when a discharged battery just stands for days in the discharged state, so avoid this. It would help if you had solar panels, just to give the batteries a bit of a charge every day. Tried this in the distant past, only with a small-ish panel which was nothing like adequate in the winter. Present yard is a bit shaded but I appreciate that larger modern panels are both more efficient and more affordable. I've also wondered about using a sailing boat windmill (but wind is very variable in this location). Alternatively: Since you go to the stable yard in a vehicle, how about having an auxiliary battery in the vehicle, charged automatically from the vehicle by a volt sensing relay? That battery could be connected to your stable battery while you're there via an 12V to mains inverter and main-input charger. If you mount the inverter in the vehicle (really useful anyway) and the charger near the stable battery you could run a long mains extension to connect them (to avoid the voltage drop of running a long 12V lead). This arrangement would put the load (the lights etc) on the vehicle aux battery and also charge the stable battery. If all this seems a bit complicated it isn't really and I can help you choose an inverter etc. This idea won't work unless the vehicle has decent length journeys quite often. Bill Nice thought, but stable is within easy walking distance. And I have batteries in two (sometimes 3) different locations with no easy wiring connection. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 13:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , newshound wrote: I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. At one time I was supplying some equipment for broadcast mobile use. Size and weight wasn't a problem, as it stayed in the van. But reliability and overall costs were - since the costs came out of my hire fee. And FWIW, I found decent quality car batteries of an adequate size - never discharged to more than about half - were far better value than specialist deep discharge types. Perhaps because of economy of production numbers. Could be the fact that the load was pretty constant and couldn't exceed what I'd measured and therefore easy to calculate how big batteries needed made it different from yours, though. And that it was re-charged overnight after use. Thanks, I had been wondering if this might be the case too. In fact I am starting to wonder whether, rather than have to have two cut-off devices, I might be better just to go to Lithiums (with built in protection, typically £25 for 8 AH) |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
Yes temperature is one thing many forget about, particularly in recent
weather. it may well be you do heat part of the place, maybe with bottled gas, but if not and there is heating life of batteries is much better when they are in an even temperature. Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "T i m" wrote in message ... On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:57:33 +0000, newshound wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). Ok. I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". From new? However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. Hmmmm ... 'try not to run them right down ...'? ;-( Now that might mean you *are* managing the discharge process accurately (in which case, that's fine but doesn't explain the low cycle count) or you are doing exactly what you say and possibly / potentially over-discharging the batteries and hence the poor cycle life? ;-( Given that they don't recommend discharging even 'deep discharge' batteries to below 50% of their nominal capacity (and that depends on many things including age and temperature). I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. I think I'd like to hear how you are actually protecting the batteries first (and you may well be etc) before recommending you spend any money anywhere? ;-) Cheers, T i m |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 08:57, newshound wrote:
I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? Nickel Iron batteries would be good here. You're not concerned about power density, they're hard to damage and very long lasting. I don't know where you'd get them, somebody might. Cheers -- Clive |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Tuesday, 13 March 2018 15:52:13 UTC, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 13/03/2018 08:57, newshound wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? Nickel Iron batteries would be good here. You're not concerned about power density, they're hard to damage and very long lasting. I don't know where you'd get them, somebody might. Cheers Ebay is probably the only source, typically shipped from US. Edison brand. Easier/cheaper to just make some. However they disappeared from widespread use because so many were found to be non-working in railway service. Also while NiCd & NiMH cells have no complaint with 100% discharge, the batteries do because cell capacity differences cause reverse current, which is destructive. I don't know if NiFe are similary effected, without any more info I expect it's likely. NT |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
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Deep discharge battery suppliers?
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Deep discharge battery suppliers?
The Natural Philosopher formulated the question :
All the people I know who have bought deep discharge have been dsssapointed with them. Short lifetime when deep discharged! I would be inclined myself to make up a relay circuit that shuts off *normal* batteries at say 11.5V or so... And just use two cheaper ines! You can buy voltage sensing relays ready made and adjustable, as used by those who tow a caravan to switch the power to a 12S socket. The actual switching voltage may need some adjustment down, the normally switch on at around 13v-ish. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
newshound wrote:
Thanks, I had been wondering if this might be the case too. In fact I am starting to wonder whether, rather than have to have two cut-off devices, I might be better just to go to Lithiums (with built in protection, typically £25 for 8 AH) Where are you getting lithium batteries for that price for 12v 8Ah, out of interest? Overkill for your application, but I'm finding my VAC1030A battery energy meter very handy for keeping an eye on batteries charging and discharging: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGp2wDAfC1k https://www.banggood.com/Digital-Amm...p-1126035.html (other vendors are available) It isn't a BMS, but useful if you want to know how much energy is going in and out. Theo |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:57:33 +0000, newshound
wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? Sort out your charging arrangement and loads such that you don't discharge the batteries as much and then you won't need deep discharge batteries. Housing the batteries such that they don't experience extremes of temperature will help a lot too. Around 100 quid on ebay gets you 100W of solar panel and a charge controller. 25Ah of genuine rated capacity, with a properly engineered cyclic 12v AGM battery costs about the same. At less than 20% depth of discharge that will give you around 2000 cycles to the point of the cell retaining 80% capacity. Approaching a decade of use from a battery under such a charge discharge regime is relatively easy. -- |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 19:10, Theo wrote:
newshound wrote: Thanks, I had been wondering if this might be the case too. In fact I am starting to wonder whether, rather than have to have two cut-off devices, I might be better just to go to Lithiums (with built in protection, typically £25 for 8 AH) Where are you getting lithium batteries for that price for 12v 8Ah, out of interest? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Jump-...97.m4902.l9144 I know that *some* of them don't know how to calculate AH correctly and they probably all overestimate a bit, but I already have a similar one which I know has a reasonable capacity. Also, it will happily start a small car with a flat battery several times while only dropping one dot (out of 4) of "capacity". |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 15:45, Brian Gaff wrote:
If going over to low current devices, surely it pays to keep the old system and then the batteries will last even longer. I know when caravans were converted to cfl types working from 12v it was amazing how long a battery would last. Of course back in them old days we had gas lights and the accompanying condensation! Brian I've just had two (ancient) lead acid batteries fail, leaving me only one good one. So I have to buy some replacements. As I think I said somewhere else, I'll do a temporary fix for one location using NiMH AAs when my 10 cell AA battery holder arrives. These 12 volt LED strips sold for caravans etc have varying properties. I have one of them as a ring illuminator for macro photography, this works fine on 8 NiMHs (even as they run down). However the new ones which I've bought for the stables insist on a genuine 12 volts. Three of them won't light at all on 10 volts, one just gives a glimmer from a third of the strip. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 20:25, The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:57:33 +0000, newshound wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? Sort out your charging arrangement and loads such that you don't discharge the batteries as much and then you won't need deep discharge batteries. Housing the batteries such that they don't experience extremes of temperature will help a lot too. Around 100 quid on ebay gets you 100W of solar panel and a charge controller. 25Ah of genuine rated capacity, with a properly engineered cyclic 12v AGM battery costs about the same. At less than 20% depth of discharge that will give you around 2000 cycles to the point of the cell retaining 80% capacity. Approaching a decade of use from a battery under such a charge discharge regime is relatively easy. Thanks for the suggestion; I have thought loosely about this in the past. Bearing in mind that I only need lighting in the winter, what sort of daily watt-hours might I expect out of a 100 watt panel in the middle of winter? I have a reasonably unobstructed view to the south. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
In article ,
newshound scribeth thus On 13/03/2018 20:25, The Other Mike wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:57:33 +0000, newshound wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? Sort out your charging arrangement and loads such that you don't discharge the batteries as much and then you won't need deep discharge batteries. Housing the batteries such that they don't experience extremes of temperature will help a lot too. Around 100 quid on ebay gets you 100W of solar panel and a charge controller. 25Ah of genuine rated capacity, with a properly engineered cyclic 12v AGM battery costs about the same. At less than 20% depth of discharge that will give you around 2000 cycles to the point of the cell retaining 80% capacity. Approaching a decade of use from a battery under such a charge discharge regime is relatively easy. Thanks for the suggestion; I have thought loosely about this in the past. Bearing in mind that I only need lighting in the winter, what sort of daily watt-hours might I expect out of a 100 watt panel in the middle of winter? I have a reasonably unobstructed view to the south. Dunno! But JOOI how far away is the nearest mains supply is it or might it be possible to string a cable across there like a phone wire size?.. -- Tony Sayer |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:21:59 +0000, newshound
wrote: Thanks for the suggestion; I have thought loosely about this in the past. Bearing in mind that I only need lighting in the winter, what sort of daily watt-hours might I expect out of a 100 watt panel in the middle of winter? I have a reasonably unobstructed view to the south. http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php Both sources and their predictions are quite accurate Aligned south with 40 degree from horizontal tilt a 100W panel will yield somewhere around 80-100kWh per year with a monthly performance around 2 - 3kWh per month in December rising to around 12kWh per month in July At about 60 degrees tilt you'll get better performance in winter with the sun closer to the horizon pushing that to 3-4kWh per month in midwinter with a reduction in summer to maybe 9kWh per month. 3kWh per month might be 100Wh per day but it could be a lot less as you've got to cater for multiple cloudy days, but size the loads right and even in the depths of winter with little visible sun the system will be dumping solar output (to an inbuilt resistive load) because the batteries are full. The 2nd website listed also has a calculator (4th tab) for standalone systems with a depth of discharge and load size option. The output produced has the percentage of days the battery is estimated to be empty or full in each particular month. -- |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
newshound wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Jump-...97.m4902.l9144 I know that *some* of them don't know how to calculate AH correctly and they probably all overestimate a bit, but I already have a similar one which I know has a reasonable capacity. Ah. I'm pretty sure none of the vendors of those know how to calculate Ah correctly, and so it's 8000mAh @ 3.6v, ie 28.8Wh. That's if they didn't lie - bigclive has a video on a '100,000mAh' version that's actually about 5200mAh. It's not implausible to fit 4x 2000mAh 18650s inside one of those packs, to 8Ah @ 3.6v is about right (though the bigclive one has pouch cells) if it's genuine. Also, it will happily start a small car with a flat battery several times while only dropping one dot (out of 4) of "capacity". While that needs a high peak current, it's only drawing it for a second or few. 500A is only 138mAh per second. Another thing to check is whether you can charge and run the output at the same time. Most can't. The raw car battery clips are usually straight off the lithium cells, so if you overdraw from there it'll kill the pack. The regulated outputs have a DC/DC converter that the pack decides to enable - either detecting a jack plug is inserted, or detecting end of charging of phones. You don't want to run into a situation where it has decided your 'phone' is now charged and it turns off the output. Basically you have to find a use case that matches the supplied electronics, or you throw the electronics away and use the cells with your own management. The latter isn't implausible - a 3S or 4S BMS is a few pounds on ebay. Though you would probably need to know what the chemistry is to do that. Further reading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tGK1nqXr28 Theo |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Tuesday, 13 March 2018 22:11:41 UTC, The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:21:59 +0000, newshound wrote: Thanks for the suggestion; I have thought loosely about this in the past. Bearing in mind that I only need lighting in the winter, what sort of daily watt-hours might I expect out of a 100 watt panel in the middle of winter? I have a reasonably unobstructed view to the south. http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php Both sources and their predictions are quite accurate Aligned south with 40 degree from horizontal tilt a 100W panel will yield somewhere around 80-100kWh per year with a monthly performance around 2 - 3kWh per month in December rising to around 12kWh per month in July At about 60 degrees tilt you'll get better performance in winter with the sun closer to the horizon pushing that to 3-4kWh per month in midwinter with a reduction in summer to maybe 9kWh per month. 3kWh per month might be 100Wh per day but it could be a lot less as you've got to cater for multiple cloudy days, but size the loads right and even in the depths of winter with little visible sun the system will be dumping solar output (to an inbuilt resistive load) because the batteries are full. The 2nd website listed also has a calculator (4th tab) for standalone systems with a depth of discharge and load size option. The output produced has the percentage of days the battery is estimated to be empty or full in each particular month. -- You can improve winter yields a bit with some white reflectors. NT |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
In article ,
Theo wrote: Also, it will happily start a small car with a flat battery several times while only dropping one dot (out of 4) of "capacity". While that needs a high peak current, it's only drawing it for a second or few. 500A is only 138mAh per second. Often when people say a car battery is flat, it isn't. Just so low it can't supply enough current for the starter. So all the jump start pack has to do is add enough current to start it. In rather the same way as those weedy jump start leads work. -- *Funny, I don't remember being absent minded. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/18 21:21, newshound wrote:
Bearing in mind that I only need lighting in the winter, what sort of daily watt-hours might I expect out of a 100 watt panel in the middle of winter? I have a reasonably unobstructed view to the south. " The values are shown as average irradiance measurements in kilowatt-hours, per square metre, spread over a day and averaged out over a period of each month of the year." https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/free...tion-values-uk about 1.3 for London at optimal winter tilt Now that is irradiance, so multiply by panel efficiency... And losses due to frost and snow Then compare the cost with runniing armored mains cables out to where the lights are needed -- Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 00:27:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Theo wrote: Also, it will happily start a small car with a flat battery several times while only dropping one dot (out of 4) of "capacity". While that needs a high peak current, it's only drawing it for a second or few. 500A is only 138mAh per second. Often when people say a car battery is flat, it isn't. Just so low it can't supply enough current for the starter. So all the jump start pack has to do is add enough current to start it. In rather the same way as those weedy jump start leads work. And sometimes they don't actually know the difference between a 'flat battery' and their can not starting for other reasons. I got a knock the other morning (in the drizzle of course) by a neighbour asking if she could borrow some jump leads because her 'battery was flat and her car wouldn't start'. I grabbed my portable (Lithium) jumps start pack, hooked it onto her battery and got her to spin it over, which it seemed to do ok, but still didn't start. Then I removed the jump and asked her to try again, and it span over fairly well again on the cars own battery? I asked her if 1) it was turning over like that before I came out and 2) did it sound like it was spinning over like it does 'normally', she replied yes to both? But not wanting to kill her battery I grabbed a spare car battery I keep for such things and some short jump leads (1m) and hooked them up and asked her to just keep it spinning over, as I'd previously hear one short instance of it trying to start. She did and after maybe about 10 seconds it slowly struggled into life. She then added she's been on holiday for a couple of weeks and thought she might have left the lights on and that's why the battery was flat. I promised her that had she left the lights on for that period there would be no way the battery would light the interior light, let alone spin the engine over! Funny ... she's not knocked since (a few weeks now) to say it needs a jump start again (so there is nothing wrong with the car) or thank me for helping her out in the rain. I might just buy and give her some jump leads then I can stay in the dry. ;-) I think part of the driving test there should be more of an obligation for people to understand more generic stuff about their vehicles as some seem to think they run by magic. ;-) Cheers, T i m p.s. Yesterday, daughter and I stripped the passenger seat of a 3dr Polo for a friend and repaired the seat folding linkage. At his age (22) I had already completely stripped and rebuilt a seized Fiat engine (well, I was 15 for that one) and changed gearboxes and done all sorts of vehicular repairs, mods and rebuilds. All they (sometimes) manage to do these days is fit a sub in the boot. ;-( |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 21:58, tony sayer wrote:
In article , newshound scribeth thus On 13/03/2018 20:25, The Other Mike wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:57:33 +0000, newshound wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? Sort out your charging arrangement and loads such that you don't discharge the batteries as much and then you won't need deep discharge batteries. Housing the batteries such that they don't experience extremes of temperature will help a lot too. Around 100 quid on ebay gets you 100W of solar panel and a charge controller. 25Ah of genuine rated capacity, with a properly engineered cyclic 12v AGM battery costs about the same. At less than 20% depth of discharge that will give you around 2000 cycles to the point of the cell retaining 80% capacity. Approaching a decade of use from a battery under such a charge discharge regime is relatively easy. Thanks for the suggestion; I have thought loosely about this in the past. Bearing in mind that I only need lighting in the winter, what sort of daily watt-hours might I expect out of a 100 watt panel in the middle of winter? I have a reasonably unobstructed view to the south. Dunno! But JOOI how far away is the nearest mains supply is it or might it be possible to string a cable across there like a phone wire size?.. It's a rented yard, may not be there much longer, not worth investing in a new supply. Even if one of the neighbours was prepared to let me have a feed, it's not a worthwhile option. Most convenient would need 300 metres of SWA. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 22:11, The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:21:59 +0000, newshound wrote: Thanks for the suggestion; I have thought loosely about this in the past. Bearing in mind that I only need lighting in the winter, what sort of daily watt-hours might I expect out of a 100 watt panel in the middle of winter? I have a reasonably unobstructed view to the south. http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/pvest.php Both sources and their predictions are quite accurate Aligned south with 40 degree from horizontal tilt a 100W panel will yield somewhere around 80-100kWh per year with a monthly performance around 2 - 3kWh per month in December rising to around 12kWh per month in July At about 60 degrees tilt you'll get better performance in winter with the sun closer to the horizon pushing that to 3-4kWh per month in midwinter with a reduction in summer to maybe 9kWh per month. 3kWh per month might be 100Wh per day but it could be a lot less as you've got to cater for multiple cloudy days, but size the loads right and even in the depths of winter with little visible sun the system will be dumping solar output (to an inbuilt resistive load) because the batteries are full. The 2nd website listed also has a calculator (4th tab) for standalone systems with a depth of discharge and load size option. The output produced has the percentage of days the battery is estimated to be empty or full in each particular month. Thanks for the detailed response. The winter figure would probably do for the lighting, but I still question whether it is a good investment, given that I only need power in the winter. I suppose it would let me put in CCTV, but actually I have had very little trouble in ~ 10 years (and CCTV is like advertising). |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On 13/03/2018 15:47, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes temperature is one thing many forget about, particularly in recent weather. it may well be you do heat part of the place, maybe with bottled gas, but if not and there is heating life of batteries is much better when they are in an even temperature. Brian No, you don't heat stables like this! |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
In article ,
newshound scribeth thus On 13/03/2018 21:58, tony sayer wrote: In article , newshound scribeth thus On 13/03/2018 20:25, The Other Mike wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:57:33 +0000, newshound wrote: I rent a small stable yard which has no mains supply. We manage quite well using 12 volt batteries to provide the limited amount of lighting required, (and also to run electric fencers some of the time). I normally use ageing car batteries, but have also had a couple of Alpha "leisure" batteries that seem to be a compromise between deep discharge and "starters". However, I had poor life from these (well under 100 cycles) even though I do check voltages and try not to run them right down, or leave them discharged. I wonder if I would be better with "proper" deep discharge, ideally not the 100 AH plus monsters. I'm going over from 12 volt CFLs to more efficient LEDs so would probably be OK now with "scooter" sized. Anyone recommend suppliers? Sort out your charging arrangement and loads such that you don't discharge Bearing in mind that I only need lighting in the winter, what sort of daily watt-hours might I expect out of a 100 watt panel in the middle of winter? I have a reasonably unobstructed view to the south. Dunno! But JOOI how far away is the nearest mains supply is it or might it be possible to string a cable across there like a phone wire size?.. It's a rented yard, may not be there much longer, not worth investing in a new supply. Even if one of the neighbours was prepared to let me have a feed, it's not a worthwhile option. Most convenient would need 300 metres of SWA. OK its just that some years ago we had a radio system and no power for it in the end we used an old phone line no longer connected to BT stuffed IIRC 75 odd volts AC down it and then that was used to charge a battery overnight and during the day when the radio unit wasn't transmitting worked well for many years:).. -- Tony Sayer |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:14:42 +0000, T i m wrote:
And sometimes they don't actually know the difference between a 'flat battery' and their can not starting for other reasons. I got a knock the other morning (in the drizzle of course) by a neighbour asking if she could borrow some jump leads because her 'battery was flat and her car wouldn't start'. I grabbed my portable (Lithium) jumps start pack, hooked it onto her battery and got her to spin it over, which it seemed to do ok, but still didn't start. Knowing how little most people know about how anything works I'd have asked her to put the head lights on first. If they are good and bright then try an start it, do lights just go out or dim a little/a lot as the engine goes through compression. Does it turn over quickly or struggle? If it struggles or the lights die I go for a jump start but (carefully) touching any of the easy to access starter current connections as well. A hot one and that could be cause rather than a flat battery. She did and after maybe about 10 seconds it slowly struggled into life. She then added she's been on holiday for a couple of weeks Petrol or diesel? Presumably a modern fuel injected engine not one with a carburetta and float chambers that evaporate... Funny ... she's not knocked since (a few weeks now) to say it needs a jump start again (so there is nothing wrong with the car) or thank me for helping her out in the rain. Of course not you're just a grease monkey to be called upon as an when and cheaper than AA/RAC/Green Flag membership. I might just buy and give her some jump leads then I can stay in the dry. ;-) Wouldn't work, she'd not know how to use ,em and would need your spare battery and/or car for you to jump from. I think part of the driving test there should be more of an obligation for people to understand more generic stuff about their vehicles as some seem to think they run by magic. ;-) I thought there was somthing, but not much beyond which fluid in which hole and checking levels. Maybe tyre pressures? -- Cheers Dave. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
T i m wrote:
sometimes they don't actually know the difference between a 'flat battery' and their can not starting for other reasons. Some (30+ I guess) bloke down the road during the cold snap, didn't understand that he had a flat battery, at about 6am he tried to start it, the starter solenoid just making the clicking noise as they do, he kept trying every half an hour or so, with the clicking getting slower and weaker, I think he expected it would somehow warm up and start working. |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:33:42 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:14:42 +0000, T i m wrote: And sometimes they don't actually know the difference between a 'flat battery' and their can not starting for other reasons. I got a knock the other morning (in the drizzle of course) by a neighbour asking if she could borrow some jump leads because her 'battery was flat and her car wouldn't start'. I grabbed my portable (Lithium) jumps start pack, hooked it onto her battery and got her to spin it over, which it seemed to do ok, but still didn't start. Knowing how little most people know about how anything works I'd have asked her to put the head lights on first. Whilst you are right, I wouldn't have considered her to be someone who would have got so confused ... and when she asked for the jump leads there was already a council truck hovering about who may have seeded the idea in her head. If they are good and bright then try an start it, do lights just go out or dim a little/a lot as the engine goes through compression. Understood. Does it turn over quickly or struggle? That was a question to her in 'is it spinning over as fast as it usually does' and different engines, starters, batteries sound different and what sounds slow to me could be perfectly normal. If it struggles or the lights die I go for a jump start but (carefully) touching any of the easy to access starter current connections as well. A hot one and that could be cause rather than a flat battery. Good point but again, in this case she said herself it sounded perfectly normal (but just wasn't starting). She did and after maybe about 10 seconds it slowly struggled into life. She then added she's been on holiday for a couple of weeks Petrol or diesel? Petrol I think Andy. I think I got a whiff of it along the way. Presumably a modern fuel injected engine not one with a carburetta and float chambers that evaporate... Nope, classic modern oversized SUV thing. Funny ... she's not knocked since (a few weeks now) to say it needs a jump start again (so there is nothing wrong with the car) or thank me for helping her out in the rain. Of course not you're just a grease monkey to be called upon as an when and cheaper than AA/RAC/Green Flag membership. It does make you wonder. I think she's one of these who considers it perfectly normal / acceptable to 'knock up a neighbour' to borrow time / equipment / skills but may well be equally happy to offer help in return (like shelter if I find myself locked out in the rain). I might just buy and give her some jump leads then I can stay in the dry. ;-) Wouldn't work, she'd not know how to use ,em and would need your spare battery and/or car for you to jump from. Yeah ... you are probably right ... ;-( I think part of the driving test there should be more of an obligation for people to understand more generic stuff about their vehicles as some seem to think they run by magic. ;-) I thought there was somthing, but not much beyond which fluid in which hole and checking levels. I believe that is part of the test now ('now' compared with 'in my day' etc). Maybe tyre pressures? Yes, that should be covered for sure if it isn't already and they could even have an airline at the test centre to do it with. I was going to say 'all drivers' should be able to say change a rear lamp but with more and more vehicles going for LEDs I think that would be too late now. I think there are several types of drivers and two are being those who are interested and able in their rides and others who treat them (and anyone they park next to it seems) as a disposable appliance. The sad thing is that that is the way cars seem to be going. ;-( Cheers, T i m |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:47:19 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
T i m wrote: sometimes they don't actually know the difference between a 'flat battery' and their can not starting for other reasons. Some (30+ I guess) bloke down the road during the cold snap, didn't understand that he had a flat battery, at about 6am he tried to start it, the starter solenoid just making the clicking noise as they do, he kept trying every half an hour or so, with the clicking getting slower and weaker, I think he expected it would somehow warm up and start working. If it's really cold turning on your headlights for a short while increases the battery temperature and improves the available capacity of the battery for an engine start. Putting your car away in a heated garage or leaving it plugged in (block heater and battery blanket) whilst in the company car park is far better though :) -- |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:47:19 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote: T i m wrote: sometimes they don't actually know the difference between a 'flat battery' and their can not starting for other reasons. Some (30+ I guess) bloke down the road during the cold snap, didn't understand that he had a flat battery, at about 6am he tried to start it, the starter solenoid just making the clicking noise as they do, he kept trying every half an hour or so, with the clicking getting slower and weaker, I think he expected it would somehow warm up and start working. Well ... it might have been that or something else but when Mum had her 4dr Moggy saloon that seemed to be what was happening. She would go to use it in the morning and it 'wouldn't start' ("flat battery" (because she hadn't used it for ages etc)). She would phone and tell me and (more often or not), when I pop in at lunchtime, whilst being sluggish it generally did start. I think it would have to be pretty marginal for that to apply though. Bringing a battery indoors and letting it warm (without charging) up definitely helps (as I have tested several times). I have also had what I call 'winter batteries' that when cold and have lost capacity wouldn't see me though a typical week of stop starts (without an off jump-start etc) ... but once though the winter would be fine for the whole summer and until the next winter. ;-) Cheers, T i m |
Deep discharge battery suppliers?
On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:29:44 +0000
T i m wrote: Well ... it might have been that or something else but when Mum had her 4dr Moggy saloon that seemed to be what was happening. Didn't they all come with a starting handle? |
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