On 04/01/2018 23:05, Steve Walker wrote:
On 29/12/2017 14:37, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

George Miles wrote:

Is it allowed to extend an old circuit using black and red wiring
with new
blue and brown.

Yes.

But you should put a warning sticker on your CU(s)

https://www.labelsonline.co.uk/electrical-labels/bs7671-cable-colour-harmonisation-labels


Which has always seemed a little superfluous in domestic premises with
single phase supplies.

Red - Brown
Black - Blue

There's no mistaking which is live or neutral in either case.

Slight possibility of confusion when 3&E is used; Red, Blue, Yellow, or
Black, Grey, Brown - all of which can be lives.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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On Friday, 5 January 2018 01:01:55 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/01/2018 23:05, Steve Walker wrote:
On 29/12/2017 14:37, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

George Miles wrote:

Is it allowed to extend an old circuit using black and red wiring
with new
blue and brown.

Yes.

But you should put a warning sticker on your CU(s)

https://www.labelsonline.co.uk/electrical-labels/bs7671-cable-colour-harmonisation-labels


Which has always seemed a little superfluous in domestic premises with
single phase supplies.

Red - Brown
Black - Blue

There's no mistaking which is live or neutral in either case.

Slight possibility of confusion when 3&E is used; Red, Blue, Yellow, or
Black, Grey, Brown - all of which can be lives.


If an electrician can't handle working with the common standard cables, where does the fault really lie? As said the note on domestic CUs is senseless.


NT

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Which has always seemed a little superfluous in domestic premises with
single phase supplies.

Red - Brown
Black - Blue

There's no mistaking which is live or neutral in either case.

Slight possibility of confusion when 3&E is used; Red, Blue, Yellow, or
Black, Grey, Brown - all of which can be lives.

If anyone is confused by the new wiring colours over the old, get a pro in
to do any work.

With 3&E in domestic use, I'd not assume what any of the colours are used
for anyway.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 05/01/2018 05:06, wrote:
On Friday, 5 January 2018 01:01:55 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/01/2018 23:05, Steve Walker wrote:
On 29/12/2017 14:37, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

George Miles wrote:

Is it allowed to extend an old circuit using black and red
wiring with new blue and brown.

Yes.

But you should put a warning sticker on your CU(s)

https://www.labelsonline.co.uk/electrical-labels/bs7671-cable-colour-harmonisation-labels




Which has always seemed a little superfluous in domestic premises with
single phase supplies.

Red - Brown Black - Blue

There's no mistaking which is live or neutral in either case.

Slight possibility of confusion when 3&E is used; Red, Blue,
Yellow, or Black, Grey, Brown - all of which can be lives.


If an electrician can't handle working with the common standard
cables, where does the fault really lie? As said the note on domestic
CUs is senseless.

Is everyone who works on domestic electrics an electrician?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote:

On Friday, 5 January 2018 01:01:55 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/01/2018 23:05, Steve Walker wrote:
On 29/12/2017 14:37, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

George Miles wrote:

Is it allowed to extend an old circuit using black and red wiring
with new
blue and brown.

Yes.

But you should put a warning sticker on your CU(s)


https://www.labelsonline.co.uk/elect...-cable-colour-
harmonisation-labels


Which has always seemed a little superfluous in domestic premises with
single phase supplies.

Red - Brown
Black - Blue

There's no mistaking which is live or neutral in either case.

Slight possibility of confusion when 3&E is used; Red, Blue, Yellow, or
Black, Grey, Brown - all of which can be lives.


If an electrician can't handle working with the common standard cables,
where does the fault really lie? As said the note on domestic CUs is
senseless.


NT
It's still perfectly legal for non-electricians to work on house wiring.
And some young persons may be mystified if they come across red and
black in a house they've moved into.


--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
If an electrician can't handle working with the common standard cables,
where does the fault really lie? As said the note on domestic CUs is
senseless.


NT
It's still perfectly legal for non-electricians to work on house wiring.
And some young persons may be mystified if they come across red and
black in a house they've moved into.

If you came across wiring colours you didn't recognise, wouldn't you
ascertain what they referred to before going further?

At one time is was quite common to find imported goods with just about any
flex colours you could shake a stick at. So before fitting a mains plug
you'd check which did what. If you valued your health.

--
*OK, who stopped payment on my reality check?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Friday, 5 January 2018 14:18:35 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
NT:

If an electrician can't handle working with the common standard cables,
where does the fault really lie? As said the note on domestic CUs is
senseless.

It's still perfectly legal for non-electricians to work on house wiring.
And some young persons may be mystified if they come across red and
black in a house they've moved into.

then what are they doing working on electrics?

If you came across wiring colours you didn't recognise, wouldn't you
ascertain what they referred to before going further?

either that's obvious, or the person concerned should be backing well away from anything as tricky as replacing a plug.

At one time is was quite common to find imported goods with just about any
flex colours you could shake a stick at. So before fitting a mains plug
you'd check which did what. If you valued your health.

Maybe we should litter roads with 'caution: pothole' signs. Taps with 'caution: wet' signs. And microwaves with 'caution, food may be hot' signs. Oh, they do that apparently. Next it'll be 'caution, coffee is hot.'


NT

On 30/12/2017 13:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And don't make the mistake of thinking a ratcheting tool is always going
to make a good joint as an incorrectly adjusted one just makes a lot of
bad joints one after another.

I've got a few ratchet tools for those RBY terminals. None is adjustable.

Mine are. In one case, I also filed down the outside jaws a bit because
I wasn't getting enough "bite" even when adjusted tight.

On 05/01/2018 15:48, wrote:
On Friday, 5 January 2018 14:18:35 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
NT:

If an electrician can't handle working with the common standard cables,
where does the fault really lie? As said the note on domestic CUs is
senseless.

It's still perfectly legal for non-electricians to work on house wiring.
And some young persons may be mystified if they come across red and
black in a house they've moved into.

then what are they doing working on electrics?

It called DIY.

--


Adam

On 05/01/2018 10:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

With 3&E in domestic use, I'd not assume what any of the colours are used
for anyway.


That was made worse with the new colours when old timers used the black
as the neutral and the grey as switched live.

I would however say that over 99% of the work I see now has the black as
the switched live.



--


Adam

On 05/01/2018 20:19, ARW wrote:
On 05/01/2018 10:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

With 3&E in domestic use, I'd not assume what any of the colours are used
for anyway.


That was made worse with the new colours when old timers used the black
as the neutral and the grey as switched live.

TBH, I am pretty sure I have done that one one early installation with
new colour 3&E as well.

I would however say that over 99% of the work I see now has the black as
the switched live.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Friday, 5 January 2018 19:57:28 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 05/01/2018 15:48, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 5 January 2018 14:18:35 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
NT:

If an electrician can't handle working with the common standard cables,
where does the fault really lie? As said the note on domestic CUs is
senseless.

It's still perfectly legal for non-electricians to work on house wiring.
And some young persons may be mystified if they come across red and
black in a house they've moved into.

then what are they doing working on electrics?

It called DIY.

You don't say.

Either they're capable or they're not. A bit of paper on the CU saying what they will see with their own eyes is hardly useful.


NT

On 06/01/2018 05:58, wrote:
On Friday, 5 January 2018 19:57:28 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 05/01/2018 15:48, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 5 January 2018 14:18:35 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Roger
Hayter wrote:
NT:

If an electrician can't handle working with the common
standard cables, where does the fault really lie? As said
the note on domestic CUs is senseless.

It's still perfectly legal for non-electricians to work on
house wiring. And some young persons may be mystified if they
come across red and black in a house they've moved into.

then what are they doing working on electrics?

It called DIY.

You don't say.

Either they're capable or they're not.

While true, it does rather ignore Dunning Kruger... i.e. all those who
are not quite capable, but don't know it.

A bit of paper on the CU
saying what they will see with their own eyes is hardly useful.

This is one of those pointless conversations really. One should (i.e.
its a wiring regs requirement) fit the sticker when appropriate, its
costs next to nothing to do it. It might help someone at some point.
That's all there is to it really.

You obviously won't fit the sticker, that's your prerogative, and in the
grand scheme of things the world is unlikely to end (at least for that
reason).

There are a whole bunch of "soft" rules that don't alter the fundamental
electrical safety of the installation, but potentially make life easier
for either users or future maintainers. Lots of people don't label the
MCBs, or fit a "live" sleeve on the switched wires on a lighting circuit
- one could argue it doesn't matter since if you know what you are
doing, you can work it all out from first principles anyway. However
these are things that gives an insight into the attention to detail
possessed of the installer. While its no guarantee, IME if you can see
that the installer has shown attention to the small details, then you
usually also find the big picture stuff is right as well.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 06/01/2018 17:16, John Rumm wrote:
snip

You obviously won't fit the sticker, that's your prerogative, and in the
grand scheme of things the world is unlikely to end (at least for that
reason).

There are a whole bunch of "soft" rules that don't alter the fundamental
electrical safety of the installation, but potentially make life easier
for either users or future maintainers. Lots of people don't label the
MCBs, or fit a "live" sleeve on the switched wires on a lighting circuit
- one could argue it doesn't matter since if you know what you are
doing, you can work it all out from first principles anyway. However
these are things that gives an insight into the attention to detail
possessed of the installer. While its no guarantee, IME if you can see
that the installer has shown attention to the small details, then you
usually also find the big picture stuff is right as well.


It seems to me the sticker was more clearly of value at the time of the
change of colour schemes. But changing the regs. to remove the
requirement raises the (all too common) issue of asymmetric rewards and
penalties for the people responsible. Hardly anyone would praise them
for saving 30 pence or so per CU. Many would call for their heads if
someone were killed where the blame could be put on the lack of a label.
(It's what made the MPs who backed the relaxation of Part P all the
more praiseworthy IMO.)




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Saturday, 6 January 2018 17:16:47 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/01/2018 05:58, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 5 January 2018 19:57:28 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 05/01/2018 15:48, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 5 January 2018 14:18:35 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Roger
Hayter wrote:
NT:

If an electrician can't handle working with the common
standard cables, where does the fault really lie? As said
the note on domestic CUs is senseless.

It's still perfectly legal for non-electricians to work on
house wiring. And some young persons may be mystified if they
come across red and black in a house they've moved into.

then what are they doing working on electrics?

It called DIY.

You don't say.

Either they're capable or they're not.

While true, it does rather ignore Dunning Kruger... i.e. all those who
are not quite capable, but don't know it.

it isn't, it's a simple statement of fact.

A bit of paper on the CU
saying what they will see with their own eyes is hardly useful.

This is one of those pointless conversations really. One should (i.e.
its a wiring regs requirement) fit the sticker when appropriate, its
costs next to nothing to do it. It might help someone at some point.
That's all there is to it really.

it's already been explained why it has no way to help anyone. It's as useful as a sign saying 'caution square pin plugs in use.'

You obviously won't fit the sticker,

I'm not aware of any fact or reason to base that on

that's your prerogative, and in the
grand scheme of things the world is unlikely to end (at least for that
reason).

There are a whole bunch of "soft" rules that don't alter the fundamental
electrical safety of the installation, but potentially make life easier
for either users or future maintainers. Lots of people don't label the
MCBs, or fit a "live" sleeve on the switched wires on a lighting circuit
- one could argue it doesn't matter since if you know what you are
doing, you can work it all out from first principles anyway.

that is a different situation and a different argument to the colours sign

However
these are things that gives an insight into the attention to detail
possessed of the installer. While its no guarantee, IME if you can see
that the installer has shown attention to the small details, then you
usually also find the big picture stuff is right as well.

yes, until the installation is altered later.

There are useful constructive rules and useless ones. Caution red & black does not look the same as blue & brown is one of the latter.


NT