Modern car rear lights!
I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the
case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! -- Michael Chare |
Modern car rear lights!
Michael Chare wrote:
is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? Well yes, because thick copper is expensive, and those 4 wires (and multiple CAN chips) can individually drive tail/brake/indicator/reverse/fog lamps ... Also the chips start to do snazzy things such as dimming one side's front running lamps when indicating or providing the "moving pulse" on newer indicators |
Modern car rear lights!
Michael Chare formulated the question :
I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! Actually, it makes it easier and it can be more clever. One thick wire as the main supply, then thin wires can be used to pick up the signals. The trailer lights can be monitored and issues fed as data down the can-bus. |
Modern car rear lights!
In article , Harry Bloomfield
wrote: Michael Chare formulated the question : I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! Actually, it makes it easier and it can be more clever. One thick wire as the main supply, then thin wires can be used to pick up the signals. The trailer lights can be monitored and issues fed as data down the can-bus. what's so new about this? I was at an international exhibition in Hamburg in the '70s. There was a Leyland bus that was wired in this way. 40 years ago! -- from KT24 in Surrey, England |
Modern car rear lights!
On 5/24/2017 8:57 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
Michael Chare wrote: is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? Well yes, because thick copper is expensive, and those 4 wires (and multiple CAN chips) can individually drive tail/brake/indicator/reverse/fog lamps ... Also the chips start to do snazzy things such as dimming one side's front running lamps when indicating or providing the "moving pulse" on newer indicators To hi-jack this thread slightly, it seems to me that the indicators on many modern cars are significantly less visible, especially off-axis, than those of older vehicles. Being positioned very close to bright LED running lights does not help in other cases, too (so dimming these seems an excellent idea to me). |
Modern car rear lights!
newshound wrote:
it seems to me that the indicators on many modern cars are significantly less visible, especially off-axis, than those of older vehicles. I find the worst design is circular brake lights surrounded by a ring of indicators, or vice-versa. Being positioned very close to bright LED running lights does not help in other cases, too (so dimming these seems an excellent idea to me). Yes, several manufacturers seem to do that now. |
Modern car rear lights!
"Michael Chare" wrote in message ... I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? Yep. The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! It does when it is designed to handle a trailer. |
Modern car rear lights!
charles pretended :
what's so new about this? I was at an international exhibition in Hamburg in the '70s. There was a Leyland bus that was wired in this way. 40 years ago! Who suggested it was new? A more recent addition to cars, maybe - past 15/20 years. |
Modern car rear lights!
On 24/05/2017 20:57, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Michael Chare formulated the question : I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! Actually, it makes it easier and it can be more clever. One thick wire as the main supply, then thin wires can be used to pick up the signals. The trailer lights can be monitored and issues fed as data down the can-bus. Yes. And then you plug in a trailer with LED lights and the damned monitoring pulse causes the lights to visibly flash every few seconds. I had to change the trailer back to filament lamps thus losing the reliability benefit - grrrr! SteveW |
Modern car rear lights!
"newshound" wrote in message
... On 5/24/2017 8:57 PM, Andy Burns wrote: To hi-jack this thread slightly, it seems to me that the indicators on many modern cars are significantly less visible, especially off-axis, than those of older vehicles. Being positioned very close to bright LED running lights does not help in other cases, too (so dimming these seems an excellent idea to me). VW Golfs of recent vintage are terrible for visibility of indicators: the front ones are placed close to the headlights and the back ones are right next to the brake lights. Gone are the days when you had a side light / indicator cluster that was totally separate from the headlights - maybe within or underneath the bumpers. I'm surprised that various countries haven't collectively mandated more stringent Construction and Use regulations which require the indicator to be as far as possible from any other source of bright light (headlight/DRL at front, brake/fog at rear), and returning to the old days of function being more important than style. I too think that modern cars' indicators are far less conspicuous, especially in daylight when the light reflected off the clear "glass" of the cluster makes it harder to see the slightly brighter "on" phase of the flashing light. |
Modern car rear lights!
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
... newshound wrote: it seems to me that the indicators on many modern cars are significantly less visible, especially off-axis, than those of older vehicles. I find the worst design is circular brake lights surrounded by a ring of indicators, or vice-versa. VW, hang you heads in shame. |
Modern car rear lights!
On 24/05/2017 20:57, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Michael Chare formulated the question : I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! Actually, it makes it easier and it can be more clever. One thick wire as the main supply, then thin wires can be used to pick up the signals. The trailer lights can be monitored and issues fed as data down the can-bus. Well it no doubt depends on the vehicle, but the manufacturer can make the car without any cable thick enough to power trailer lights, running to the back of the vehicle. -- Michael Chare |
Modern car rear lights!
On Wed, 24 May 2017 21:46:14 +0100, "NY" wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message ... newshound wrote: it seems to me that the indicators on many modern cars are significantly less visible, especially off-axis, than those of older vehicles. I find the worst design is circular brake lights surrounded by a ring of indicators, or vice-versa. VW, hang you heads in shame. An excellent example of form over function, not to mention road safety. -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
Modern car rear lights!
On Wed, 24 May 2017 20:57:28 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote: Michael Chare wrote: is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? Well yes, because thick copper is expensive, and those 4 wires (and multiple CAN chips) can individually drive tail/brake/indicator/reverse/fog lamps ... Also the chips start to do snazzy things such as dimming one side's front running lamps when indicating or providing the "moving pulse" on newer indicators How about a different cadence for hazard lights, so you don't mistake them as an intention to pull out when the nearside indicator is obscured. -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
Modern car rear lights!
Graham. wrote on 24/05/2017 :
How about a different cadence for hazard lights, so you don't mistake them as an intention to pull out when the nearside indicator is obscured. It would need to be very different, because normal indicators legally have a wide range of speeds. |
Modern car rear lights!
On 24/05/2017 22:37, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Graham. wrote on 24/05/2017 : How about a different cadence for hazard lights, so you don't mistake them as an intention to pull out when the nearside indicator is obscured. It would need to be very different, because normal indicators legally have a wide range of speeds. How about a double flash, pause, double flash? I must admit that I am fed up of seeing vehicles that appear to be about to pull out from a row, only to find as I get there that they have hazard lights on. SteveW |
Modern car rear lights!
Steve Walker used his keyboard to write :
How about a double flash, pause, double flash? That might work. I must admit that I am fed up of seeing vehicles that appear to be about to pull out from a row, only to find as I get there that they have hazard lights on. Me too. I even consider stopping to let HGV's out, then notice there is no driver behind the wheel. |
Modern car rear lights!
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message ... Michael Chare formulated the question : I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! Actually, it makes it easier and it can be more clever. One thick wire as the main supply, then thin wires can be used to pick up the signals. The trailer lights can be monitored and issues fed as data down the can-bus. It's all far too clever IMHO. Take the seat sensors, if I bung a shopping bag on the passenger seat the "fasten seat belt" command/bleeper goes barmy. I realise it's all designed for dumbarses but c'mon. With other probs, you take it to a dealer who sucks his teeth and hasn't a clue. Whatever the diagnostics tell him it gets changed, charged for, and still has the prob. The poor back-street garage who i've used for 52 years is totally buggered. Progress/profit. The day we get driverless cars i'll be hopefully dead. |
Modern car rear lights!
On Wed, 24 May 2017 22:37:41 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Graham. wrote on 24/05/2017 : How about a different cadence for hazard lights, so you don't mistake them as an intention to pull out when the nearside indicator is obscured. It would need to be very different, because normal indicators legally have a wide range of speeds. Change the mark/space ratio? -- My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message. Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor |
Modern car rear lights!
On 24/05/2017 23:16, bm wrote:
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message ... Michael Chare formulated the question : I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! Actually, it makes it easier and it can be more clever. One thick wire as the main supply, then thin wires can be used to pick up the signals. The trailer lights can be monitored and issues fed as data down the can-bus. It's all far too clever IMHO. Take the seat sensors, if I bung a shopping bag on the passenger seat the "fasten seat belt" command/bleeper goes barmy. I realise it's all designed for dumbarses but c'mon. With other probs, you take it to a dealer who sucks his teeth and hasn't a clue. Whatever the diagnostics tell him it gets changed, charged for, and still has the prob. The poor back-street garage who i've used for 52 years is totally buggered. Progress/profit. The day we get driverless cars i'll be hopefully dead. I find I now have a car that is supposed to start when you press a button and the key is in the car. However instead of starting I got a message in front of me saying "Savelock RTFM". (Well perhaps without the expletive.) -- Michael Chare |
Modern car rear lights!
In article ,
Michael Chare wrote: I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? Seems to be. When you make electronics in bulk they may well be cheaper to the factory than high current cables and switchgear. But not, of course, when it comes to buying replacements, if needed. So saying, my last car was an early adopter of this idea, and the electrics were very reliable even at getting on for 20 years old. -- *If God dropped acid, would he see people? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Modern car rear lights!
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Michael Chare wrote: I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? Seems to be. When you make electronics in bulk they may well be cheaper to the factory than high current cables and switchgear. But not, of course, when it comes to buying replacements, if needed. So saying, my last car was an early adopter of this idea, and the electrics were very reliable even at getting on for 20 years old. Just wait until the electronics are not very reliable. Similar to the Labour party. |
Modern car rear lights!
"Michael Chare" wrote in message ... On 24/05/2017 23:16, bm wrote: "Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message ... Michael Chare formulated the question : I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! Actually, it makes it easier and it can be more clever. One thick wire as the main supply, then thin wires can be used to pick up the signals. The trailer lights can be monitored and issues fed as data down the can-bus. It's all far too clever IMHO. Take the seat sensors, if I bung a shopping bag on the passenger seat the "fasten seat belt" command/bleeper goes barmy. I realise it's all designed for dumbarses but c'mon. With other probs, you take it to a dealer who sucks his teeth and hasn't a clue. Whatever the diagnostics tell him it gets changed, charged for, and still has the prob. The poor back-street garage who i've used for 52 years is totally buggered. Progress/profit. The day we get driverless cars i'll be hopefully dead. I find I now have a car that is supposed to start when you press a button and the key is in the car. However instead of starting I got a message in front of me saying "Savelock RTFM". (Well perhaps without the expletive.) And this is progress? Dave knows, but won't admit to anything. He's fractionally left. Lets get Corbyn and sound engineers in power, then we'll know who are the nogberts/pricks. McDonnell might get to perform fellatio on Corbyn, legally. Not in closed doors. Ya hafta laugh at these ****s. And Dave. Steady on missus, we might just have to pay a few UK pence more for our caviar. LMFAO. Really though, I'm absolutely frightened to death of what the EU might impose upon us. They might even come to their senses? Nah. |
Modern car rear lights!
En el artículo ,
newshound escribió: Being positioned very close to bright LED running lights does not help in other cases, too (so dimming these seems an excellent idea to me). I spotted a car the other day that turned off the running lights on that side while the indicator was flashing. It certainly worked to make the indicator more visible. -- (\_/) (='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick (")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West |
Modern car rear lights!
"Michael Chare" wrote in message ... I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! yes in the same way they love making cheap self exploding car engins with a rubber band connecting bits together ..... |
Modern car rear lights!
"NY" wrote in message o.uk... "Andy Burns" wrote in message ... newshound wrote: it seems to me that the indicators on many modern cars are significantly less visible, especially off-axis, than those of older vehicles. I find the worst design is circular brake lights surrounded by a ring of indicators, or vice-versa. VW, hang you heads in shame. I quite like Audi sequential indicators which were pioneered by ford in the 60's .... |
Modern car rear lights!
"Michael Chare" wrote in message ... I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! LEDs are great but with fault finding flicker they bugger up my eyes big time .... |
Modern car rear lights!
That is because the manufacturers don't want joe public doing any job,
instead they want over priced specialists to do it. However the current drain of modern lights is one heck of a lot less than a bulb and arguably, less likely to fail without the driver being alerted via a snazzy dasboard icon. Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "Michael Chare" wrote in message ... I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! -- Michael Chare |
Modern car rear lights!
On 24/05/2017 22:15, Graham. wrote:
On Wed, 24 May 2017 20:57:28 +0100, Andy Burns wrote: Michael Chare wrote: is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? Well yes, because thick copper is expensive, and those 4 wires (and multiple CAN chips) can individually drive tail/brake/indicator/reverse/fog lamps ... The other thing is that the solid state LEDs essentially last pretty much forever so you can dispense with sockets in many cases. There is a slight problem with some of them producing a too collimated beam of light so that they dim as you get closer but further off axis. This is actually a benefit for motorway signs at night since it makes them visible from further away without dazzling close up. But in bright sunlight on cars it can work against being able to see them close up. Also the chips start to do snazzy things such as dimming one side's front running lamps when indicating or providing the "moving pulse" on newer indicators How about a different cadence for hazard lights, so you don't mistake them as an intention to pull out when the nearside indicator is obscured. That is actually a damn good idea now that the flashing is no longer determined by the vaguaries of a bimetallic strip and heater or simple astable. dot-dash-dot-dash would be the most unambiguous. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
Modern car rear lights!
Martin Brown wrote:
now that the flashing is no longer determined by the vaguaries of a bimetallic strip and heater But the sound of the flasher unit lives on, presumably as a .wav file? |
Modern car rear lights!
|
Modern car rear lights!
On 24-May-17 9:14 PM, newshound wrote:
On 5/24/2017 8:57 PM, Andy Burns wrote: Michael Chare wrote: is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? Well yes, because thick copper is expensive, and those 4 wires (and multiple CAN chips) can individually drive tail/brake/indicator/reverse/fog lamps ... Also the chips start to do snazzy things such as dimming one side's front running lamps when indicating or providing the "moving pulse" on newer indicators To hi-jack this thread slightly, it seems to me that the indicators on many modern cars are significantly less visible, especially off-axis, than those of older vehicles. Being positioned very close to bright LED running lights does not help in other cases, too (so dimming these seems an excellent idea to me). On some cars, the same position is used for front running light and indicator, with the running light being turned off when the indicator is in use. I have also seen running rabbit style indicators, where the yellow LEDS light in sequence, moving towards the direction of turn. -- -- Colin Bignell |
Modern car rear lights!
On 24-May-17 8:50 PM, Michael Chare wrote:
I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? A failed LED in an array won't make much difference to the function of the light, but a failed bulb, which is far more probable, will. The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! I bought my car with manufacturer fitted fold-away tow bar and electrics. -- -- Colin Bignell |
Modern car rear lights!
Brian Gaff formulated the question :
However the current drain of modern lights is one heck of a lot less than a bulb and arguably, less likely to fail without the driver being alerted via a snazzy dasboard icon. More than just snazzy, the system can be very practical, very useful. I can plug the caravan in and know all the car and all the caravan's road lighting is functioning. If there were a failure on route, I would know immediately and know precisely which lamp had failed. They don't even have to completely fail, a poor connection or flickering lamp is enough to trigger a fault condition. |
Modern car rear lights!
Nightjar wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: Also the chips start to do snazzy things such as dimming one side's front running lamps when indicating or providing the "moving pulse" on newer indicators I have also seen running rabbit style indicators, where the yellow LEDS light in sequence, moving towards the direction of turn. That's what I meant by the "moving pulse" I think Audi call them "dynamic indicators" |
Modern car rear lights!
"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
... En el artículo , newshound escribió: Being positioned very close to bright LED running lights does not help in other cases, too (so dimming these seems an excellent idea to me). I spotted a car the other day that turned off the running lights on that side while the indicator was flashing. It certainly worked to make the indicator more visible. I think that's fairly common. Our Honda CRV does that, both for DRL (during day) and for sidelights (at night). I've seen quite a few other cars that do it - in fact with today's poor indicators, it's often the first thing I spot that tells me a car is about to turn. |
Modern car rear lights!
On 5/24/2017 9:45 PM, NY wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message ... On 5/24/2017 8:57 PM, Andy Burns wrote: To hi-jack this thread slightly, it seems to me that the indicators on many modern cars are significantly less visible, especially off-axis, than those of older vehicles. Being positioned very close to bright LED running lights does not help in other cases, too (so dimming these seems an excellent idea to me). VW Golfs of recent vintage are terrible for visibility of indicators: the front ones are placed close to the headlights and the back ones are right next to the brake lights. Gone are the days when you had a side light / indicator cluster that was totally separate from the headlights - maybe within or underneath the bumpers. I'm surprised that various countries haven't collectively mandated more stringent Construction and Use regulations which require the indicator to be as far as possible from any other source of bright light (headlight/DRL at front, brake/fog at rear), and returning to the old days of function being more important than style. I too think that modern cars' indicators are far less conspicuous, especially in daylight when the light reflected off the clear "glass" of the cluster makes it harder to see the slightly brighter "on" phase of the flashing light. Glad it is not just me! Perhaps what we need is some sort of European Union where collective benefits (like USB charging on phones) can be worked out :-) |
Modern car rear lights!
On Thu, 25 May 2017 09:29:03 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff formulated the question : However the current drain of modern lights is one heck of a lot less than a bulb and arguably, less likely to fail without the driver being alerted via a snazzy dasboard icon. More than just snazzy, the system can be very practical, very useful. I can plug the caravan in and know all the car and all the caravan's road lighting is functioning. If there were a failure on route, I would know immediately and know precisely which lamp had failed. They don't even have to completely fail, a poor connection or flickering lamp is enough to trigger a fault condition. Just wondering - which car has that on? Im aware of the ones that register a failed indicator bulb but not ones that show that trailer/ caravan road lighting/reversing/fog lights are working. As an aside I watched a 17 plate Volvo tractor/trailer unit having its lights checked at a service station the other day. Driver stood at the back with a remote control and then went through the checks for all the trailer lights. Fascinating to watch them all going off and on in sequence including the side marker lights. |
Modern car rear lights!
On 5/25/2017 12:34 AM, Michael Chare wrote:
On 24/05/2017 23:16, bm wrote: "Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message ... Michael Chare formulated the question : I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much thicker wires? The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy! Actually, it makes it easier and it can be more clever. One thick wire as the main supply, then thin wires can be used to pick up the signals. The trailer lights can be monitored and issues fed as data down the can-bus. It's all far too clever IMHO. Take the seat sensors, if I bung a shopping bag on the passenger seat the "fasten seat belt" command/bleeper goes barmy. I realise it's all designed for dumbarses but c'mon. With other probs, you take it to a dealer who sucks his teeth and hasn't a clue. Whatever the diagnostics tell him it gets changed, charged for, and still has the prob. The poor back-street garage who i've used for 52 years is totally buggered. Progress/profit. The day we get driverless cars i'll be hopefully dead. I find I now have a car that is supposed to start when you press a button and the key is in the car. However instead of starting I got a message in front of me saying "Savelock RTFM". (Well perhaps without the expletive.) Reminds me of a hired manual Renault (iirc) a few years ago. Required you to depress the clutch (or was it the clutch and brake?) before it would start. Spend five minutes waiting for the breakdown emergency number to find the answer, even though it had an "information" screen. No manuals left in hire car, of course. |
Modern car rear lights!
In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote: That is because the manufacturers don't want joe public doing any job, instead they want over priced specialists to do it. Good luck finding a specialist who can do anything other than just fit a new bit. Which joe public could do if he wanted. Thing is most these days think everything can be done in software. Fixing hardware doesn't come into it. -- *The more people I meet, the more I like my dog. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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