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Build my own power station
I was watching the early development of electricity generation and
houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. -- AnthonyL |
Build my own power station
On 05/05/2017 19:42, AnthonyL wrote:
I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. The reason why gas is cheaper than electricity is that the gas engine is inherently inefficient. I think commercial ones are up to 50% efficient: I don't think you'll get anything like that. An ICE might be 30% and a steam engine more like 10%. -- Max Demian |
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On Friday, 5 May 2017 20:14:39 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:
On 05/05/2017 19:42, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. The reason why gas is cheaper than electricity is that the gas engine is inherently inefficient. I think commercial ones are up to 50% efficient: I don't think you'll get anything like that. An ICE might be 30% and a steam engine more like 10%. If the OP hits 21%, which is doable, the electricity will cost the same 14p a unit in gas, but you'll get the extra heat free. It's done on larger scale, but a lot of mucking about for not a lot on a domestic scale. NT |
Build my own power station
On 5/5/2017 7:42 PM, AnthonyL wrote:
I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. One of my former colleagues was hoping to develop, after retiring, a commercially viable domestic CHP source using a lorry turbocharger fired by natural gas driving an electrical generator in a unit about the size of a large boiler. I assume he was thinking about something like a "dyson" high speed motor as the generator. I guess it never got beyond the prototype stage. |
Build my own power station
On 05/05/17 19:42, AnthonyL wrote:
I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. Model aircraft turbines can be had BUT they are not very efficient. And that's the problem. To turn that gas at 3p/kwh into electricity at 4p/kwh which is what a big CCGT plant does you need....well a big ccgt plant! -- €œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans, about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a 'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,' a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.€ Vaclav Klaus |
Build my own power station
On 05/05/17 20:14, Max Demian wrote:
On 05/05/2017 19:42, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. The reason why gas is cheaper than electricity is that the gas engine is inherently inefficient. I think commercial ones are up to 50% efficient: 65%. I don't think you'll get anything like that. An ICE might be 30% 40under noraml conditions and a steam engine more like 10%. 37% or up to 42% with supercritical steam at 400C or so. -- €œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans, about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a 'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,' a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.€ Vaclav Klaus |
Build my own power station
On Friday, 5 May 2017 23:20:13 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/05/17 20:14, Max Demian wrote: On 05/05/2017 19:42, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. The reason why gas is cheaper than electricity is that the gas engine is inherently inefficient. I think commercial ones are up to 50% efficient: 65%. I don't think you'll get anything like that. An ICE might be 30% 40under noraml conditions if 'normal' means with all the bells & whistles huge power stations have. Without all that you'll get nowhere near. This is one of the problems with small scale generation. and a steam engine more like 10%. 37% or up to 42% with supercritical steam at 400C or so. NT |
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In article ,
AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. The two retail prices are quite closely tied together. If it were economical to generate electricity locally from gas it would be done that way. But a small generator is never going to be as efficient as a large one - specially when capital and running costs are included. -- *If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. The two retail prices are quite closely tied together. Like hell they are. There's a reason most use gas instead of electricity to heat their house. If it were economical to generate electricity locally from gas it would be done that way. But when the gas price sags, and the price of electricity increases do to the stupid scrapping of coal fired power generation and the subsiding of 'renewable' ****, there may come a time when what didn’t previously make sense, does now make sense. But a small generator is never going to be as efficient as a large one - specially when capital and running costs are included. Doesn’t need to be. ALL it needs to do is provide electricity more cheaply than buying it does. |
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On Saturday, 6 May 2017 07:08:11 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
'renewable' ****, there may come a time when what didnt previously make sense, does now make sense. if only that could be applied to you. NT |
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Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
wrote just more of the **** that always pours from the back of that desperately cowering gutless ****wit. |
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On Saturday, 6 May 2017 08:12:52 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind tabbypurr wrote just more of the **** that always pours from the back of that desperately cowering gutless ****wit. Stick your fingers in some superglue. We could do with the rest. NT |
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On Friday, 5 May 2017 19:42:43 UTC+1, AnthonyL wrote:
I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. -- AnthonyL All been thought of years ago. You can buy one, a box that generates electricity and heat using gas. http://www.micro-chp.org.uk/domestic-chp/ |
Build my own power station
There was one on costing the Earth a week or so back. I understand it did
work but it had some drawbacks about replacing vital membranes or something. About the size of a washing machine. Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "Chris Hogg" wrote in message ... On Fri, 05 May 2017 18:42:40 GMT, lid (AnthonyL) wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. What you want is a home fuel cell: produces heat and electricity directly from natural gas. Perfectly viable and already marketed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_fuel_cell Lots more here http://tinyurl.com/mytd9to -- Chris |
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On 06/05/17 09:16, Brian Gaff wrote:
I'd imagine a jet might be a little noisy though. The issue really is is it cost effective and what are the rules of doing this and maybe selling spare back to the grid? Golly gosh Brian. (Are you the Brian from the magic roundabout?) What took you so long? Don't you think if it were cheaper to build a gadget that plugged into the gas supply and generated electricity the way a combi boiler generates hot water, we wouldn't all have one? Why do you think we deliver gas to houses, instead of hot water? There's this funny thing called a 'market' which means that until governments interfere, stuff that is cheap and works well and does something useful just naturally gets deployed, and expensive stupid ideas that are dreamt up by armchair greens and socialists,m never get to first base. And big ideas that take a lot of money to deploy, can collect small amounts of money from people and add it all up and build big things. Thats called capitalism. And when the big thing (like a nuclear power staion and a national grid) does something better than lots of little things (like domestic electricity generators running off diesel), everybody benefits - as long as the shareholders don't get taxed by government of course. I bet the first thing your council would do is charge business rates if you started to sell energy back. Of course. Government is the enemy of the people. All government is a self legalising protection racket. That's why we have a democracy, so we can limit their power somewhat. But that's why they like to control the media and the education system. so you don't notice them exercising it. Brian -- Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas? Josef Stalin |
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In article ,
harry writes: On Friday, 5 May 2017 19:42:43 UTC+1, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. -- AnthonyL All been thought of years ago. You can buy one, a box that generates electricity and heat using gas. http://www.micro-chp.org.uk/domestic-chp/ Not currently offering any products. That's been the state of this field for last 15 years. If you go to any of the trade shows, you will find lots of combined heat and power units. However, they can't be made small enough (in power output) and efficient enough for domestic use. Over the last 15 years, products have appeared on the market briefly, but rarely got past beta phase. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
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On 05/05/2017 19:42, AnthonyL wrote:
I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. Why not just run an ordinary generator from gas? As long as you need the heat as well, you'd be quids in, ignoring capital costs. And noise. And safety. Cheers -- Clive |
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On 06/05/17 13:34, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 05/05/2017 19:42, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. Why not just run an ordinary generator from gas? As long as you need the heat as well, you'd be quids in, ignoring capital costs. And noise. And safety. Cheers Well as the CHP in Denmark is testament to, you end up generating heat beyond your needs. 5Kw is about what a house needs and that's about 6.6 brake horsepower A small steam engine fed from a gas powered boiler could do that. At about 20% efficiency. leaving you wit about 25KW of waste heat. Oh dear. Thats enough to heat the house 5 times over in the depths of winter... -- There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. Mark Twain |
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On Saturday, 6 May 2017 13:34:25 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 05/05/2017 19:42, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. Why not just run an ordinary generator from gas? As long as you need the heat as well, you'd be quids in, ignoring capital costs. And noise. And safety. Cheers efficiency, noise, capital cost, run cost, reliability, payback, failure to use the heat, anything I missed? NT |
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Build my own power station
On 06/05/2017 14:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/05/17 13:34, Clive Arthur wrote: On 05/05/2017 19:42, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. Why not just run an ordinary generator from gas? As long as you need the heat as well, you'd be quids in, ignoring capital costs. And noise. And safety. Cheers Well as the CHP in Denmark is testament to, you end up generating heat beyond your needs. 5Kw is about what a house needs and that's about 6.6 brake horsepower A small steam engine fed from a gas powered boiler could do that. At about 20% efficiency. leaving you wit about 25KW of waste heat. Oh dear. Thats enough to heat the house 5 times over in the depths of winter... Well, I suppose you'd size it according to the heating needs rather than the electricity needs and use the grid as an AC accumulator. The *average* household electricity consumption is about 500W, I think, although the shorter term winter average (when you needed the heat) would be more. It's probably not practical, or it would already be done, and obviously, only a small proportion of people could do it. Cheers -- Clive |
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Build my own power station
On Saturday, 6 May 2017 16:31:31 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/05/17 14:33, tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 6 May 2017 13:34:25 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote: On 05/05/2017 19:42, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. Why not just run an ordinary generator from gas? As long as you need the heat as well, you'd be quids in, ignoring capital costs. And noise. And safety. Cheers efficiency, noise, capital cost, run cost, reliability, payback, failure to use the heat, anything I missed? smell? CO hazard NT |
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In article ,
Clive Arthur writes: On 06/05/2017 14:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote: Well as the CHP in Denmark is testament to, you end up generating heat beyond your needs. 5Kw is about what a house needs and that's about 6.6 brake horsepower A small steam engine fed from a gas powered boiler could do that. At about 20% efficiency. leaving you wit about 25KW of waste heat. Oh dear. Thats enough to heat the house 5 times over in the depths of winter... Well, I suppose you'd size it according to the heating needs rather than the electricity needs and use the grid as an AC accumulator. The *average* household electricity consumption is about 500W, I think, although the shorter term winter average (when you needed the heat) would be more. It's probably not practical, or it would already be done, and obviously, only a small proportion of people could do it. It was done - Whispergen and another I forget made domestic boilers with 1kW electricity output. They weren't viable and the companies abandoned the domestic products when the development subsidies were withdrawn. A set of 4 or 5 major domestic boiler manufacturers then setup shared research into this field, but I'm not aware it resulted in any products. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
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On 5/5/2017 11:18 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/05/17 19:42, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. Model aircraft turbines can be had BUT they are not very efficient. And that's the problem. To turn that gas at 3p/kwh into electricity at 4p/kwh which is what a big CCGT plant does you need....well a big ccgt plant! +1 |
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On 5/6/2017 12:16 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. The two retail prices are quite closely tied together. If it were economical to generate electricity locally from gas it would be done that way. But a small generator is never going to be as efficient as a large one - specially when capital and running costs are included. Is this a first, you and TNP in agreement! :-) |
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On 5/6/2017 12:36 PM, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , harry writes: On Friday, 5 May 2017 19:42:43 UTC+1, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. -- AnthonyL All been thought of years ago. You can buy one, a box that generates electricity and heat using gas. http://www.micro-chp.org.uk/domestic-chp/ Not currently offering any products. That's been the state of this field for last 15 years. If you go to any of the trade shows, you will find lots of combined heat and power units. However, they can't be made small enough (in power output) and efficient enough for domestic use. Over the last 15 years, products have appeared on the market briefly, but rarely got past beta phase. That was my belief, glad to see it confirmed! |
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On 5/6/2017 12:11 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , AnthonyL wrote: ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. You can get small jet engines from, f'rinstance, these people: http://www.wrenpowersystems.com/index.html I've no idea whether anything like that would be suitable or not. They didn't obviously have prices but they were IIRC not that expensive. As I said elsewhere, a turbocharger turbine is somewhat comparable. But they run at getting on for 100,000 rpm. Gearing is never going to be an option, but perhaps something like the Dyson "digital" motors might be adaptable. |
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Some gutless ****wit desperately cowering behind
tabbypurr wrote just more of the **** that always pours from the back of that desperately cowering gutless ****wit. |
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Build my own power station
On Fri, 5 May 2017 23:18:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: Model aircraft turbines can be had BUT they are not very efficient. And that's the problem. To turn that gas at 3p/kwh into electricity at 4p/kwh which is what a big CCGT plant does you need....well a big ccgt plant! 15 years ago we ran a LS60 apu on woodgas briefly, it worked but my colleague estimated a gas turbine would not be viable as a genrator prime mover less than 300kW(e) AJH |
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On Sat, 6 May 2017 19:28:12 -0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote: It was done - Whispergen and another I forget made domestic boilers with 1kW electricity output. They weren't viable and the companies abandoned the domestic products when the development subsidies were withdrawn. Sounds about right, one was a free running piston and the other used three cylinders and a swash plate IIRC AJH |
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In article ,
writes: On Fri, 5 May 2017 13:06:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote: If the OP hits 21%, which is doable, the electricity will cost the same 14p a unit in gas, but you'll get the extra heat free. It's done on larger scale, but a lot of mucking about for not a lot on a domestic scale. Does no one remember the calor totem from the 80s. It supplied the electricity needs of three households but the achilles heel was engine life was only about a year, 1100cc FIAT I think. Cars (of that type) are only designed for 3000 hours use. That gets you to roughly 100,000 miles at an average 30MPH. I'm not sure why the various Stirling units failed, they were about 1kW(e) and 9kW(t), British gas were going to install 3000 in Manchester but pulled out, the NZ company that made them still exists. They were supposed to offer the life of a freezer and the utility of a gas boiler all for around six times the cost of a traditional boiler. The development was funded by the likes of Eon, British Gas, etc. The products vanished when the development funding ceased. I think this was probably down to them never being economic to sell without hefty subsidies, due to inefficient energy production in small units for domestic use. I've actually run a 1kW(e) Honda generator in the evenings for two years with no issues until it got stolen from the caravan, so engine life need not be a problem but matching size to demand is. In the 90s installed a 10kW(e) Petter genset based chp at a remote classroom and the electricity cost about the same as the diesel used plus the operation and maintenance costs so not worthwhile if grid connected, just under 20% efficient because it was sized for peak loads and ran at 10% most of the time which was inefficient. My old boss now installs wood pellet chp which back feed the grid, they have one that's been online for 2 years, but that all hinges on a generous feed in tariff. Conversely the National Trust have finally gone overboard for wood energy and in qualifying for RHI have removed a number of oversized chip boilers and replaced by new, these are for heat only, at one property where a micro hydro electric scheme has been replaced rather than backfeed the grid they have opted to use excess electricity to power immersion elements in the thermal store. I installed Aircon at home 12 years ago. It was for cooling my main living area when working at home, but I actually use it in reverse to heat the area in winter when working at home, rather than heating the whole house. For first few years, I had it on a power meter, and using it as an air-sourced heat pump cost very little to heat the room all winter, vastly less than heating the whole house all day with gas central heating just because I'm working in one room. It only gets used for cooling a few days a year, but for heating, probably 50 days a year. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
Build my own power station
On 07/05/17 10:16, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
On Fri, 5 May 2017 13:06:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Does no one remember the calor totem from the 80s. It supplied the electricity needs of three households but the achilles heel was engine life was only about a year, 1100cc FIAT I think. Cars (of that type) are only designed for 3000 hours use. That gets you to roughly 100,000 miles at an average 30MPH. In the 1973 power cuts where I worked had a generator., It started with a Ford 2 litre but that died within days, and a Perkins 2.5L diesel was welded in its place. That got us through. Car engines are not designed for continuous moderate to high power output, but commercial vehicle diesels are. -- Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas? Josef Stalin |
Build my own power station
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote: Does no one remember the calor totem from the 80s. It supplied the electricity needs of three households but the achilles heel was engine life was only about a year, 1100cc FIAT I think. Cars (of that type) are only designed for 3000 hours use. That gets you to roughly 100,000 miles at an average 30MPH. There's a very big difference between normal start stop driving and running at constant load, on an engine's life. If it really were designed for a 3000 hour life with normal use, I'd expect many times that with a generator. Presumably with the engine running at somewhere near maximum torque, so therefore efficiency. -- *If at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Build my own power station
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , writes: On Fri, 5 May 2017 13:06:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote: If the OP hits 21%, which is doable, the electricity will cost the same 14p a unit in gas, but you'll get the extra heat free. It's done on larger scale, but a lot of mucking about for not a lot on a domestic scale. Does no one remember the calor totem from the 80s. It supplied the electricity needs of three households but the achilles heel was engine life was only about a year, 1100cc FIAT I think. Cars (of that type) are only designed for 3000 hours use. BULL****. That gets you to roughly 100,000 miles at an average 30MPH. I'm not sure why the various Stirling units failed, they were about 1kW(e) and 9kW(t), British gas were going to install 3000 in Manchester but pulled out, the NZ company that made them still exists. They were supposed to offer the life of a freezer and the utility of a gas boiler all for around six times the cost of a traditional boiler. The development was funded by the likes of Eon, British Gas, etc. The products vanished when the development funding ceased. I think this was probably down to them never being economic to sell without hefty subsidies, due to inefficient energy production in small units for domestic use. I've actually run a 1kW(e) Honda generator in the evenings for two years with no issues until it got stolen from the caravan, so engine life need not be a problem but matching size to demand is. In the 90s installed a 10kW(e) Petter genset based chp at a remote classroom and the electricity cost about the same as the diesel used plus the operation and maintenance costs so not worthwhile if grid connected, just under 20% efficient because it was sized for peak loads and ran at 10% most of the time which was inefficient. My old boss now installs wood pellet chp which back feed the grid, they have one that's been online for 2 years, but that all hinges on a generous feed in tariff. Conversely the National Trust have finally gone overboard for wood energy and in qualifying for RHI have removed a number of oversized chip boilers and replaced by new, these are for heat only, at one property where a micro hydro electric scheme has been replaced rather than backfeed the grid they have opted to use excess electricity to power immersion elements in the thermal store. I installed Aircon at home 12 years ago. It was for cooling my main living area when working at home, but I actually use it in reverse to heat the area in winter when working at home, rather than heating the whole house. For first few years, I had it on a power meter, and using it as an air-sourced heat pump cost very little to heat the room all winter, vastly less than heating the whole house all day with gas central heating just because I'm working in one room. It only gets used for cooling a few days a year, but for heating, probably 50 days a year. |
Build my own power station
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Build my own power station
On Sat, 6 May 2017 20:34:57 +0100, newshound
wrote: On 5/5/2017 11:18 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 05/05/17 19:42, AnthonyL wrote: I was watching the early development of electricity generation and houses had their own coal fired generators before power distribution became widespread. Now is the time of year my fuel contracts come up for renewal; I can get gas at less that 3p/kwH but my electricity supplier (soon not to be) has upped their rate to nearly 14p/kwH which had me wondering about the economics of using the cheaper gas to generate my electricity. ok, a bit t-i-c but it'd be fun having my own steam generator (modified boiler?), turbine and generator. I recall a viable jet engine (intended for VTOL some 45yrs ago) that could be picked up by one person so a turbine needn't be too big. Model aircraft turbines can be had BUT they are not very efficient. And that's the problem. To turn that gas at 3p/kwh into electricity at 4p/kwh which is what a big CCGT plant does you need....well a big ccgt plant! +1 I'll keep an eye on Ebay to see if one comes up cheap. -- AnthonyL |
Build my own power station
AnthonyL wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: a big ccgt plant! I'll keep an eye on Ebay to see if one comes up cheap. I think you were asking about Ratcliffe the other week? I happened to drive past on Friday and the coal heaps looked very well stocked and neatly raked over ... suppose the bulldozer drivers have to do something over summer? |
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