I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
Or is 24/25 KW plenty for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

This pretty much, but obviously there are other factors like capacity of
gas supply at the boiler installation point and mains water
pressure/flow rate.

We have a 28KW purely because we wanted better DHW performance.

On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".


IIRC didn't do well in Which? report when we looked for elderly relative
2 years ago. But looks cheap for London. Depends on details though:

Power flush included?
Approved installer?
Ideal parts and labour warranty for how many years?
At what price for annual service?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 07/04/2017 14:05, Robin wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".


IIRC didn't do well in Which? report when we looked for elderly relative
2 years ago. But looks cheap for London. Depends on details though:

My concern is just the choice of boiler. The rest of the quote looks okay.


Power flush included?
Approved installer?
Ideal parts and labour warranty for how many years?
At what price for annual service?




Our quote for a new boiler is as follows
Power flush out radiators and pipe work with chemicals and remove old boiler
Strip back boiler and make safe and electrics. Remove old flue
Supply and fit an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler
Supply and fit new flue
Alter pipe work to suit
Alter wiring to suit
Connect up gas and electrics. Make good around flue.
Issue Gas Safety Certificate, Gas safe compliance certificate and
register warranty.
Clear site. Leave on and working....
Includes a 3 year manufacturers parts warranty
£1495 + Vat

On 07/04/2017 14:05, Robin wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".


IIRC didn't do well in Which? report when we looked for elderly relative
2 years ago. But looks cheap for London. Depends on details though:

In place of Ideal, I'm looking at specifying an Intergas 24 KW combi.
They seem a bit cheaper than worcester bosch and they have a good rep,
apparently.

Any comments, please?


Power flush included?
Approved installer?
Ideal parts and labour warranty for how many years?
At what price for annual service?

On Friday, 7 April 2017 13:42:34 UTC+1, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

The 2 relatively reliable makes are Worcester Bosch & Vaillant. Forget the rest.


NT

On 07/04/2017 17:06, wrote:

The 2 relatively reliable makes are Worcester Bosch & Vaillant. Forget the rest.


FWIW in 2015 the Which? reliability index gave Viessmann the same score
as WB.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?


I've had 2 Ideal combi boilers fitted in different properties over the
past 10 years. Both have been reliable for the 5 years each I've used them.

I'd add they weren't my first choice - I'd have chosen Veissmann or WB.
But the price difference, 5 year warranty (subject to annual service)
and the fitter's strong lobbying swayed me.

Ans as some have mentioned - a higher output will I think mean a higher
flow of HW.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

Yup, 24kW is a tad on the feeble side for hot water. Good for a shower,
but would be a bit slow on a bath.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 07/04/2017 14:05, Robin wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".


IIRC didn't do well in Which? report when we looked for elderly relative
2 years ago.

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want a job
done properly.


--
Adam

On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want a job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in up
to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps by
the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

PS
I misremembered. It was Vaillant and Veissmann that had equal scores
(77); Worcester was 79.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want a job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in up
to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps by
the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

I remember their test which showed that while Fergusson TVs were quite
reliable - HMV ones were very unreliable.
The two sets were identical apart from the cabinet - plastic or wood.
Sample size for HMV = 1.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 08/04/17 14:24, charles wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want a job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in up
to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps by
the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

I remember their test which showed that while Fergusson TVs were quite
reliable - HMV ones were very unreliable.
The two sets were identical apart from the cabinet - plastic or wood.
Sample size for HMV = 1.

Yep.

What strikes is the amazing variety of feedback you get on e.g. ebay
from 'fantastic' to '****, couldn't assemble it and it fell apart within
one day'

(office chair was what I was looking for)

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On 4/8/2017 2:10 PM, Robin wrote:
On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want a job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in up
to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps by
the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

PS
I misremembered. It was Vaillant and Veissmann that had equal scores
(77); Worcester was 79.

+1 for the relevance of Which? statistics in this case.

Also, there seems to have been a consensus here for some years in favour
of Vaillant and Worcester Bosch.

On 4/7/2017 11:19 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

Yup, 24kW is a tad on the feeble side for hot water. Good for a shower,
but would be a bit slow on a bath.


Also, I was never able to persuade my first two combis (Vaillant,
Halstead) to supply hot enough water for washing dishes. I'm *much*
happier with a traditional system boiler, even with a vented cylinder.

On 08/04/2017 15:42, newshound wrote:
On 4/7/2017 11:19 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so
on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

Yup, 24kW is a tad on the feeble side for hot water. Good for a
shower, but would be a bit slow on a bath.


Also, I was never able to persuade my first two combis (Vaillant,
Halstead) to supply hot enough water for washing dishes. I'm *much*
happier with a traditional system boiler, even with a vented cylinder.

Fair point.. most seem to top out at 60 ish for DHW. How hot do you want it?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/04/2017 15:40, newshound wrote:
On 4/8/2017 2:10 PM, Robin wrote:
On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want a job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in
up to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps
by the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

PS
I misremembered. It was Vaillant and Veissmann that had equal scores
(77); Worcester was 79.

+1 for the relevance of Which? statistics in this case.

Also, there seems to have been a consensus here for some years in favour
of Vaillant and Worcester Bosch.

Although consensus in any relatively small and insular group only has
limited value, since we all probably parrot each other ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/04/17 16:07, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:42, newshound wrote:
On 4/7/2017 11:19 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so
on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment
it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty
for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

Yup, 24kW is a tad on the feeble side for hot water. Good for a
shower, but would be a bit slow on a bath.


Also, I was never able to persuade my first two combis (Vaillant,
Halstead) to supply hot enough water for washing dishes. I'm *much*
happier with a traditional system boiler, even with a vented cylinder.

Fair point.. most seem to top out at 60 ish for DHW. How hot do you want
it?

Its not the temp, its the flow rate

The combi where I am these days has to be carefully adjusted to give hot
water for a bath. Too fast and its cold. Too slow and it doesn't
activate the flow switch



--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

In article ,
charles wrote:
I remember their test which showed that while Fergusson TVs were quite
reliable - HMV ones were very unreliable.
The two sets were identical apart from the cabinet - plastic or wood.
Sample size for HMV = 1.

Surely anyone would know that a tiny sample isn't going to give an average?

--
*Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
newshound wrote:
Also, there seems to have been a consensus here for some years in favour
of Vaillant and Worcester Bosch.

Thing must of changed, then. I bought my Viessmann based on what was said
here - and looking on their site.

But I did a self install. Getting a plumber to install what he's not
recommended may not be the best idea.

--
*Born free...Taxed to death.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Saturday, 8 April 2017 16:50:18 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
I remember their test which showed that while Fergusson TVs were quite
reliable - HMV ones were very unreliable.
The two sets were identical apart from the cabinet - plastic or wood.
Sample size for HMV = 1.

Surely anyone would know that a tiny sample isn't going to give an average?

Doesn't mean they care. Which has a bit of a habit there.


NT

On 4/8/2017 4:09 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:40, newshound wrote:
On 4/8/2017 2:10 PM, Robin wrote:
On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want a
job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in
up to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps
by the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

PS
I misremembered. It was Vaillant and Veissmann that had equal scores
(77); Worcester was 79.

+1 for the relevance of Which? statistics in this case.

Also, there seems to have been a consensus here for some years in favour
of Vaillant and Worcester Bosch.

Although consensus in any relatively small and insular group only has
limited value, since we all probably parrot each other ;-)

Well informed, though. Many of us will have installed boilers and most
of us investigated failures rather than just "get a man in", I suspect.

On 4/8/2017 4:26 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/04/17 16:07, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:42, newshound wrote:
On 4/7/2017 11:19 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so
on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment
it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty
for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

Yup, 24kW is a tad on the feeble side for hot water. Good for a
shower, but would be a bit slow on a bath.


Also, I was never able to persuade my first two combis (Vaillant,
Halstead) to supply hot enough water for washing dishes. I'm *much*
happier with a traditional system boiler, even with a vented cylinder.

Fair point.. most seem to top out at 60 ish for DHW. How hot do you want
it?

Its not the temp, its the flow rate

The combi where I am these days has to be carefully adjusted to give hot
water for a bath. Too fast and its cold. Too slow and it doesn't
activate the flow switch



That was the problem I had with mine. Don't think I ever saw anything
reliable above about 50 C. And even then it isn't instant heat, so that
you can't top up a sink (or bath) that is getting cold without having
several litres of tepid water first. Always seems a bit primitive having
to boil a kettle to finish the dish-pans.

I think I run my cylinder at about 65. And with a Stuart Turner to make
sure I get a decent flow.

On 08/04/2017 16:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/04/17 16:07, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:42, newshound wrote:
On 4/7/2017 11:19 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so
on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment
it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty
for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

Yup, 24kW is a tad on the feeble side for hot water. Good for a
shower, but would be a bit slow on a bath.


Also, I was never able to persuade my first two combis (Vaillant,
Halstead) to supply hot enough water for washing dishes. I'm *much*
happier with a traditional system boiler, even with a vented cylinder.

Fair point.. most seem to top out at 60 ish for DHW. How hot do you want
it?

Its not the temp, its the flow rate

The combi where I am these days has to be carefully adjusted to give hot
water for a bath. Too fast and its cold. Too slow and it doesn't
activate the flow switch


I just set it at the boiler to 'bath temperature', and it fills the bath
fairly quickly with no need for cold


--
Cheers, Rob

On 08/04/2017 17:12, newshound wrote:

snipppage

That was the problem I had with mine. Don't think I ever saw anything
reliable above about 50 C []..

If I put a thermometer under the hot tap it pretty much agrees with the
LCD display on the front of the boiler, unless I set the flow rate
ridiculously high (quite high mains pressure here) A constant 70C isn't
a problem, but I usually have it set at 55-60C anyway, because that's
where I prefer it.


[]..And even then it isn't instant heat, so that
you can't top up a sink (or bath) that is getting cold without having
several litres of tepid water first.

Can't argue with that though

Always seems a bit primitive having
to boil a kettle to finish the dish-pans.


Nah, what's primitive is washing dishes in a sink grin

On 08/04/2017 18:09, RJH wrote:

I just set it at the boiler to 'bath temperature', and it fills the bath
fairly quickly with no need for cold



That's pretty much where ours is except it's "shower temp", well hers, I
have to mix cold in

On 08/04/2017 15:42, newshound wrote:
On 4/7/2017 11:19 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so
on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

Yup, 24kW is a tad on the feeble side for hot water. Good for a
shower, but would be a bit slow on a bath.


Also, I was never able to persuade my first two combis (Vaillant,
Halstead) to supply hot enough water for washing dishes. I'm *much*
happier with a traditional system boiler, even with a vented cylinder.


You have obviously never been on a training course to learn how to hand
wash dishes properly:-)




--
Adam

On 4/8/2017 6:15 PM, Lee wrote:
On 08/04/2017 17:12, newshound wrote:

snipppage

That was the problem I had with mine. Don't think I ever saw anything
reliable above about 50 C []..

If I put a thermometer under the hot tap it pretty much agrees with the
LCD display on the front of the boiler, unless I set the flow rate
ridiculously high (quite high mains pressure here) A constant 70C isn't
a problem, but I usually have it set at 55-60C anyway, because that's
where I prefer it.


[]..And even then it isn't instant heat, so that you can't top up a
sink (or bath) that is getting cold without having several litres of
tepid water first.

Can't argue with that though

Always seems a bit primitive having to boil a kettle to finish the
dish-pans.


Nah, what's primitive is washing dishes in a sink grin




I agree *up to a point* but my big wooden chopping boards don't go in
the dishwasher, and I have some other pans of a size where one or two
are a full load.

:-)

On 4/8/2017 8:22 PM, ARW wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:42, newshound wrote:
On 4/7/2017 11:19 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so
on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment
it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty
for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

Yup, 24kW is a tad on the feeble side for hot water. Good for a
shower, but would be a bit slow on a bath.


Also, I was never able to persuade my first two combis (Vaillant,
Halstead) to supply hot enough water for washing dishes. I'm *much*
happier with a traditional system boiler, even with a vented cylinder.


You have obviously never been on a training course to learn how to hand
wash dishes properly:-)




You have no idea how many courses I *have* been on. But using skin
friendly detergents, there is a minimum temperature for effective
cleaning. Of course caustic soda is fine at room temperature.

On 08/04/2017 17:08, newshound wrote:
On 4/8/2017 4:09 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:40, newshound wrote:
On 4/8/2017 2:10 PM, Robin wrote:
On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want
a job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in
up to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps
by the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

PS
I misremembered. It was Vaillant and Veissmann that had equal scores
(77); Worcester was 79.

+1 for the relevance of Which? statistics in this case.

Also, there seems to have been a consensus here for some years in favour
of Vaillant and Worcester Bosch.

Although consensus in any relatively small and insular group only has
limited value, since we all probably parrot each other ;-)

Well informed, though. Many of us will have installed boilers and most
of us investigated failures rather than just "get a man in", I suspect.

... and to be fair to the Ideal Isar I installed in my previous place, it
worked well for the 4 years or so that I owned it. (had one small
failure when the DHW temp probe failed).

The Vaillant I installed in this place is probably better though...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/04/2017 16:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/04/17 16:07, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:42, newshound wrote:
On 4/7/2017 11:19 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so
on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment
it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty
for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

Yup, 24kW is a tad on the feeble side for hot water. Good for a
shower, but would be a bit slow on a bath.


Also, I was never able to persuade my first two combis (Vaillant,
Halstead) to supply hot enough water for washing dishes. I'm *much*
happier with a traditional system boiler, even with a vented cylinder.

Fair point.. most seem to top out at 60 ish for DHW. How hot do you want
it?

Its not the temp, its the flow rate

For washing dishes?

The combi where I am these days has to be carefully adjusted to give hot
water for a bath. Too fast and its cold. Too slow and it doesn't
activate the flow switch

What model of boiler is it?

The very first Main combi used was like that, but more modern ones seem
much better at triggering at quite modest flow rates.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/04/17 23:54, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 16:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/04/17 16:07, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:42, newshound wrote:
On 4/7/2017 11:19 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/04/2017 13:42, GB wrote:
I've just had a quote to replace a boiler. £1500 +VAT. I guess that's
the going rate around here in London, although it looks like an
incredibly straightforward job. There's plenty of room to work and so
on.

My question relates to the boiler they are suggesting: "Supply and
fit
an Ideal Combi 25 KW Boiler".

What would the assembled minds here suggest is a good make/model of
boiler to install?

Presumably a 25KW combi is required, but may go up to 28 KW, as we
are
thinking of converting the garage into an extra room. At the moment
it's
a 2 bed bungalow without very good insulation. Or is 24/25 KW plenty
for
heating, regardless, and the size is determined more by the need to
provide a decent supply of hot water?

Yup, 24kW is a tad on the feeble side for hot water. Good for a
shower, but would be a bit slow on a bath.


Also, I was never able to persuade my first two combis (Vaillant,
Halstead) to supply hot enough water for washing dishes. I'm *much*
happier with a traditional system boiler, even with a vented cylinder.

Fair point.. most seem to top out at 60 ish for DHW. How hot do you want
it?

Its not the temp, its the flow rate

For washing dishes?

Yup.

The combi where I am these days has to be carefully adjusted to give hot
water for a bath. Too fast and its cold. Too slow and it doesn't
activate the flow switch

What model of boiler is it?

Cant remember. Oil condensing thing from Ireland IIRC. Less than a
decade old.


The very first Main combi used was like that, but more modern ones seem
much better at triggering at quite modest flow rates.

well a hot trickle is not what I call 'domestic hot water' . More like a
case for Tena.




--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/04/17 14:24, charles wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want a
job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in up
to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps by
the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

I remember their test which showed that while Fergusson TVs were quite
reliable - HMV ones were very unreliable.
The two sets were identical apart from the cabinet - plastic or wood.
Sample size for HMV = 1.

Yep.

What strikes is the amazing variety of feedback you get on e.g. ebay
from 'fantastic' to '****, couldn't assemble it and it fell apart within
one day'

(office chair was what I was looking for)


I find the 1 star reviews on Amazon give a good clue to the likely
problems. The percentage also is useful.

John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:40, newshound wrote:
On 4/8/2017 2:10 PM, Robin wrote:
On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want a
job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in
up to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps
by the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

PS
I misremembered. It was Vaillant and Veissmann that had equal scores
(77); Worcester was 79.

+1 for the relevance of Which? statistics in this case.

Also, there seems to have been a consensus here for some years in favour
of Vaillant and Worcester Bosch.

Although consensus in any relatively small and insular group only has
limited value, since we all probably parrot each other ;-)


I didn't realise you agreed with HarrY!

John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 17:08, newshound wrote:
On 4/8/2017 4:09 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:40, newshound wrote:
On 4/8/2017 2:10 PM, Robin wrote:
On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want
a job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in
up to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps
by the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

PS
I misremembered. It was Vaillant and Veissmann that had equal scores
(77); Worcester was 79.

+1 for the relevance of Which? statistics in this case.

Also, there seems to have been a consensus here for some years in
favour
of Vaillant and Worcester Bosch.

Although consensus in any relatively small and insular group only has
limited value, since we all probably parrot each other ;-)

Well informed, though. Many of us will have installed boilers and most
of us investigated failures rather than just "get a man in", I suspect.

.. and to be fair to the Ideal Isar I installed in my previous place, it
worked well for the 4 years or so that I owned it. (had one small
failure when the DHW temp probe failed).

The Vaillant I installed in this place is probably better though...


My traditional boiler has had 1 failure (pump) in 40 years of
operation. It has never had inhibitor, but does run on softened water.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

What strikes is the amazing variety of feedback you get on e.g. ebay
from 'fantastic' to '****, couldn't assemble it and it fell apart
within one day'

The trouble with those reviews is the capability or otherwise of the
reviewer. I'm no expert, but even going back to MFI flat pack stuff, it
was OK if the instructions were carefully followed and usually better if
assembled with a supply of PVA glue to strengthen the important bits.

Someone else may assemble without realising that all screws were not
identical, no glue and yes, it falls apart and is a 'crap' product.
--
Graeme

On 09/04/17 09:47, Capitol wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 08/04/2017 15:40, newshound wrote:
On 4/8/2017 2:10 PM, Robin wrote:
On 08/04/2017 08:31, ARW wrote:
snip

Are Which reports still as useful as a suggestion from dennis?

You always do the opposite to what they say or suggest if you want a
job
done properly.


And I thought _I_ was cynical

I certainly dismiss most of what Which? counts as "tests" these days.
But the reliability index for boilers was based on reports from Which?
members of which gas boilers they own and if they had broken done in
up to 6 years from when they were installed. I had thought that they
couldn't muck up analysis of them but I suppose...

Not that Which? members are typical of course - as indicated perhaps
by the sample including 848 Vaillant, 131 Veissmann (131) and 1,847
Worcester but only 177 BG.

PS
I misremembered. It was Vaillant and Veissmann that had equal scores
(77); Worcester was 79.

+1 for the relevance of Which? statistics in this case.

Also, there seems to have been a consensus here for some years in favour
of Vaillant and Worcester Bosch.

Although consensus in any relatively small and insular group only has
limited value, since we all probably parrot each other ;-)


I didn't realise you agreed with HarrY!

The value of off topic posts here is that the selection is so broad.
D-I-Y it seems is no indicator of someone with libertarian or
individualistic leanings.

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 08/04/2017 16:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The combi where I am these days has to be carefully adjusted to give hot
water for a bath. Too fast and its cold. Too slow and it doesn't
activate the flow switch

That's like the old gas geysers; if it was in the kitchen people had to
call up to the bathroom to turn down the tap to just the right point
before the gas flow reduces.

--
Max Demian

On 09/04/17 10:46, Max Demian wrote:
On 08/04/2017 16:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The combi where I am these days has to be carefully adjusted to give hot
water for a bath. Too fast and its cold. Too slow and it doesn't
activate the flow switch

That's like the old gas geysers; if it was in the kitchen people had to
call up to the bathroom to turn down the tap to just the right point
before the gas flow reduces.

Exactly. Its like going back to the 1950s


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 08/04/2017 20:22, ARW wrote:


You have obviously never been on a training course to learn how to hand
wash dishes properly:-)

In our house, we have a terrible problem with sub-optimal dishwasher
loading.