I'll soon be moving in to a new place in a house that was built in 1893. The outside walls are brick on the outside and 22 inches thick.

Given the age of the place I was expecting it to have very hard bricks like my current 1930s semi, where I had to buy an SDS drill to have any hope of drilling into the walls.

But no - the walls in this new place have plaster 35mm deep and then a mixture of stone and mortar. I can tell this having seen the walls of the place next door which have been stripped of plaster and look quite nice.

I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure them to the wall to stop them toppling - I found it really hard to get a decent fixing in using my usual method of a hole with the SDS and a PlasPlug. I guess the PlasPlug is all going to be in the plaster. It's like drilling into a digestive biscuit - I can't get a decent purchase and I'm glad I'm not trying to hang wall units.

What would be the best kind of fixings for this type of wall? I've bought some 8x80mm frame fixings but not tried them yet. I guess I need a plug that's a lot longer than the depth of the plaster and that's what the frame fixings provide.

On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 16:54:30 UTC, Murmansk wrote:
I'll soon be moving in to a new place in a house that was built in 1893. The outside walls are brick on the outside and 22 inches thick.

Given the age of the place I was expecting it to have very hard bricks like my current 1930s semi, where I had to buy an SDS drill to have any hope of drilling into the walls.

But no - the walls in this new place have plaster 35mm deep and then a mixture of stone and mortar. I can tell this having seen the walls of the place next door which have been stripped of plaster and look quite nice.

I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure them to the wall to stop them toppling - I found it really hard to get a decent fixing in using my usual method of a hole with the SDS and a PlasPlug. I guess the PlasPlug is all going to be in the plaster. It's like drilling into a digestive biscuit - I can't get a decent purchase and I'm glad I'm not trying to hang wall units.

What would be the best kind of fixings for this type of wall? I've bought some 8x80mm frame fixings but not tried them yet. I guess I need a plug that's a lot longer than the depth of the plaster and that's what the frame fixings provide.

I have had several similar places.
In the end the only solution is to hack all the plaster off and cement render the lot.

On exterior walls you might take opportunity to line with insulation.

There are no short cuts.

Be sure to wear a mask. This old plaster often has horse/cow hair in which may have still active anthrax.

On 08/03/2017 16:54, Murmansk wrote:
I'll soon be moving in to a new place in a house that was

built in 1893. The outside walls are brick on the outside and 22
inches thick.

Given the age of the place I was expecting it to have very hard

bricks like my current 1930s semi, where I had to buy an SDS drill to
have any hope of drilling into the walls.


But no - the walls in this new place have plaster 35mm deep an

d then a mixture of stone and mortar. I can tell this having seen

the walls of the place next door which have been stripped of plaster

and look quite nice.

I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure

them to the wall to stop them toppling - I found it really hard to get a
decent fixing in u

sing my usual method of a hole with the SDS and a PlasPlug. I guess the
PlasPlug is all going to be in

the plaster. It's like drilling into a digestive biscuit - I can't get a
decent purchase and I'm glad I'm

not trying to hang wall units.

What would be the best kind of fixings for this type of wall? I've b

ought some 8x80mm frame fixings but not tried them yet. I guess I need a
plug

that's a lot longer than the depth of the plaster and that's what the
frame fixings provide.

In extremis chase out a channel in the plaster to reveal a line of bare
stone. Then you can fix to the stone strategically, Fix a batten to the
stone and and pack the batten out where necessary. Fix to the batten.

Bill

On 08-Mar-17 4:54 PM, Murmansk wrote:
I'll soon be moving in to a new place in a house that was built in 1893. The outside walls are brick on the outside and 22 inches thick.

Given the age of the place I was expecting it to have very hard bricks like my current 1930s semi, where I had to buy an SDS drill to have any hope of drilling into the walls.

But no - the walls in this new place have plaster 35mm deep and then a mixture of stone and mortar. I can tell this having seen the walls of the place next door which have been stripped of plaster and look quite nice.

I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure them to the wall to stop them toppling - I found it really hard to get a decent fixing in using my usual method of a hole with the SDS and a PlasPlug. I guess the PlasPlug is all going to be in the plaster. It's like drilling into a digestive biscuit - I can't get a decent purchase and I'm glad I'm not trying to hang wall units.

What would be the best kind of fixings for this type of wall? I've bought some 8x80mm frame fixings but not tried them yet. I guess I need a plug that's a lot longer than the depth of the plaster and that's what the frame fixings provide.


What I did with my kitchen, which has dodgy plaster over brick, was to
cover the whole wall with 15mm ply, using frame fixings, then screw the
kitchen units to the ply.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 08/03/2017 16:54, Murmansk wrote:
I'll soon be moving in to a new place in a house that was built in 1893. The outside walls are brick on the outside and 22 inches thick.

Given the age of the place I was expecting it to have very hard bricks like my current 1930s semi, where I had to buy an SDS drill to have any hope of drilling into the walls.

But no - the walls in this new place have plaster 35mm deep and then a mixture of stone and mortar. I can tell this having seen the walls of the place next door which have been stripped of plaster and look quite nice.

I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure them to the wall to stop them toppling - I found it really hard to get a decent fixing in using my usual method of a hole with the SDS and a PlasPlug. I guess the PlasPlug is all going to be in the plaster. It's like drilling into a digestive biscuit - I can't get a decent purchase and I'm glad I'm not trying to hang wall units.

What would be the best kind of fixings for this type of wall? I've bought some 8x80mm frame fixings but not tried them yet. I guess I need a plug that's a lot longer than the depth of the plaster and that's what the frame fixings provide.

You could try some longish masonry screws straight into the solidish
stuff behind the plaster, such as these
http://www.screwfix.com/p/easydrive-...100-pack/9643h
(but available in various lengths).
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 08/03/2017 17:32, Roger Mills wrote:
On 08/03/2017 16:54, Murmansk wrote:
I'll soon be moving in to a new place in a house that was built in
1893. The outside walls are brick on the outside and 22 inches thick.

Given the age of the place I was expecting it to have very hard bricks
like my current 1930s semi, where I had to buy an SDS drill to have
any hope of drilling into the walls.

But no - the walls in this new place have plaster 35mm deep and then a
mixture of stone and mortar. I can tell this having seen the walls of
the place next door which have been stripped of plaster and look quite
nice.

I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure
them to the wall to stop them toppling - I found it really hard to get
a decent fixing in using my usual method of a hole with the SDS and a
PlasPlug. I guess the PlasPlug is all going to be in the plaster. It's
like drilling into a digestive biscuit - I can't get a decent purchase
and I'm glad I'm not trying to hang wall units.

What would be the best kind of fixings for this type of wall? I've
bought some 8x80mm frame fixings but not tried them yet. I guess I
need a plug that's a lot longer than the depth of the plaster and
that's what the frame fixings provide.

You could try some longish masonry screws straight into the solidish
stuff behind the plaster, such as these
http://www.screwfix.com/p/easydrive-...100-pack/9643h
(but available in various lengths).

They are bloody good screws.

--
Adam

I have had several similar places.
In the end the only solution is to hack all the plaster off and cement render the lot.

On exterior walls you might take opportunity to line with insulation.

There are no short cuts.

Be sure to wear a mask. This old plaster often has horse/cow hair in which may have still active anthrax.

I think maybe I'll demolish the whole house, put it through one of those crushing machines that demolition people use then get it rebuilt in concrete made from the resulting stuff - that way I'll be able to put up my kitchen cupboards more easily (and I won't catch anthrax!)

On 08/03/2017 16:54, Murmansk wrote:
- show quoted text -
You could try some longish masonry screws straight into the solidish
stuff behind the plaster, such as these
http://www.screwfix.com/p/easydrive-...100-pack/9643h
(but available in various lengths).
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.


Those look great, thanks I'll give them a try

On 08/03/17 16:54, Murmansk wrote:
I'll soon be moving in to a new place in a house that was built in
1893. The outside walls are brick on the outside and 22 inches thick.


Given the age of the place I was expecting it to have very hard
bricks like my current 1930s semi, where I had to buy an SDS drill to
have any hope of drilling into the walls.

But no - the walls in this new place have plaster 35mm deep and then
a mixture of stone and mortar. I can tell this having seen the walls
of the place next door which have been stripped of plaster and look
quite nice.

I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure
them to the wall to stop them toppling - I found it really hard to
get a decent fixing in using my usual method of a hole with the SDS
and a PlasPlug. I guess the PlasPlug is all going to be in the
plaster. It's like drilling into a digestive biscuit - I can't get a
decent purchase and I'm glad I'm not trying to hang wall units.

What would be the best kind of fixings for this type of wall? I've
bought some 8x80mm frame fixings but not tried them yet. I guess I
need a plug that's a lot longer than the depth of the plaster and
that's what the frame fixings provide.



Fischer do some extra long plugs, which I have used in soft walls
(celcon block) to good effect.

http://www.fischer.co.uk/Home/tabid-...roductdetails/

There is one in the S10 range that are even longer. Use a 6mm screw if
you can for extra purchase.

On 08/03/17 18:47, Murmansk wrote:
I have had several similar places.
In the end the only solution is to hack all the plaster off and
cement render the lot.

On exterior walls you might take opportunity to line with insulation.


There are no short cuts.

Be sure to wear a mask. This old plaster often has horse/cow hair in
which may have still active anthrax.

I think maybe I'll demolish the whole house, put it through one of
those crushing machines that demolition people use then get it
rebuilt in concrete made from the resulting stuff - that way I'll be
able to put up my kitchen cupboards more easily (and I won't catch
anthrax!)


I wouldn't worry about anthrax from a tiny sample of horsehair. Lots of
old furniture was stuffed with horsehair and you didn't get people
catching anthrax all over the place.

There's anthrax in your flower beds and you need a decent exposure to
catch it - at least that's what Tomorrow's World said...

Murmansk wrote:
I'll soon be moving in to a new place in a house that was built in
1893. The outside walls are brick on the outside and 22 inches thick.

Given the age of the place I was expecting it to have very hard
bricks like my current 1930s semi, where I had to buy an SDS drill to
have any hope of drilling into the walls.

But no - the walls in this new place have plaster 35mm deep and then
a mixture of stone and mortar. I can tell this having seen the walls
of the place next door which have been stripped of plaster and look
quite nice.

I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure
them to the wall to stop them toppling - I found it really hard to
get a decent fixing in using my usual method of a hole with the SDS
and a PlasPlug. I guess the PlasPlug is all going to be in the
plaster. It's like drilling into a digestive biscuit - I can't get a
decent purchase and I'm glad I'm not trying to hang wall units.

What would be the best kind of fixings for this type of wall? I've
bought some 8x80mm frame fixings but not tried them yet. I guess I
need a plug that's a lot longer than the depth of the plaster and
that's what the frame fixings provide.

No plaster anywhere is strong enough to hold anything major, you need to
drill into the stone, start the screw off in the plug and then knock it in
so that the plug goes into the stone.
ordinary 75mm screws will be enough and just use your normal plugs, frame
fixings aren't required.

On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 16:54:30 UTC, Murmansk wrote:
I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure them
to the wall to stop them toppling

Intended for wall cupboards, but I don't see why you couldn't use wall cupboard hangers on a tall cupboard, with a rail:

https://www.locksonline.com/Cabinet-...Long-6492.html

Helps get multiple fixing points ona dodgy wall

Owain

Wrote in message:
On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 16:54:30 UTC, Murmansk wrote:
I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure them
to the wall to stop them toppling

Intended for wall cupboards, but I don't see why you couldn't use wall cupboard hangers on a tall cupboard, with a rail:

https://www.locksonline.com/Cabinet-...Long-6492.html

Helps get multiple fixing points ona dodgy wall

Owain


Do you have to notch the sides of the cupboards to use these? Or
do you use seperate bits for each cupboard?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 20:17:03 UTC, jim wrote:
https://www.locksonline.com/Cabinet-...Long-6492.html
Helps get multiple fixing points ona dodgy wall
Do you have to notch the sides of the cupboards to use these? Or
do you use seperate bits for each cupboard?

a) notch the sides of the cupboards, except for the ends of the run, and cut the rail a bit shorter than the end of the run

b) don't notch the sides and have the cupboards hanging off the wall slightly at the top

c) separate bits for each cupboard, but this loses much of the advantage of using a long rail

Owain

On 3/8/2017 5:18 PM, Bill Wright wrote:

In extremis chase out a channel in the plaster to reveal a line of bare
stone. Then you can fix to the stone strategically, Fix a batten to the
stone and and pack the batten out where necessary. Fix to the batten.

Bill

Done that!

On 3/8/2017 5:19 PM, Nightjar wrote:
On 08-Mar-17 4:54 PM, Murmansk wrote:
I'll soon be moving in to a new place in a house that was built in
1893. The outside walls are brick on the outside and 22 inches thick.

Given the age of the place I was expecting it to have very hard bricks
like my current 1930s semi, where I had to buy an SDS drill to have
any hope of drilling into the walls.

But no - the walls in this new place have plaster 35mm deep and then a
mixture of stone and mortar. I can tell this having seen the walls of
the place next door which have been stripped of plaster and look quite
nice.

I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure
them to the wall to stop them toppling - I found it really hard to get
a decent fixing in using my usual method of a hole with the SDS and a
PlasPlug. I guess the PlasPlug is all going to be in the plaster. It's
like drilling into a digestive biscuit - I can't get a decent purchase
and I'm glad I'm not trying to hang wall units.

What would be the best kind of fixings for this type of wall? I've
bought some 8x80mm frame fixings but not tried them yet. I guess I
need a plug that's a lot longer than the depth of the plaster and
that's what the frame fixings provide.


What I did with my kitchen, which has dodgy plaster over brick, was to
cover the whole wall with 15mm ply, using frame fixings, then screw the
kitchen units to the ply.

Done something very like that too! Actually to make a built-in corner
unit clear of the floor to hold a TV, but same idea. This was on 18th
century rubble filled stone wall, also about 2 feet thick.

On 3/8/2017 6:47 PM, Murmansk wrote:
I have had several similar places.
In the end the only solution is to hack all the plaster off and cement render the lot.

On exterior walls you might take opportunity to line with insulation.

There are no short cuts.

Be sure to wear a mask. This old plaster often has horse/cow hair in which may have still active anthrax.

I think maybe I'll demolish the whole house, put it through one of those crushing machines that demolition people use then get it rebuilt in concrete made from the resulting stuff - that way I'll be able to put up my kitchen cupboards more easily (and I won't catch anthrax!)

New neighbour started doing something like that. Until the conservation
officer came round.

On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 19:31:14 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/03/17 18:47, Murmansk wrote:
I have had several similar places.
In the end the only solution is to hack all the plaster off and
cement render the lot.

On exterior walls you might take opportunity to line with insulation.


There are no short cuts.

Be sure to wear a mask. This old plaster often has horse/cow hair in
which may have still active anthrax.

I think maybe I'll demolish the whole house, put it through one of
those crushing machines that demolition people use then get it
rebuilt in concrete made from the resulting stuff - that way I'll be
able to put up my kitchen cupboards more easily (and I won't catch
anthrax!)


I wouldn't worry about anthrax from a tiny sample of horsehair. Lots of
old furniture was stuffed with horsehair and you didn't get people
catching anthrax all over the place.

There's anthrax in your flower beds and you need a decent exposure to
catch it - at least that's what Tomorrow's World said...

There may well be tetanus in your garden but not anthrax.
And you can catch it very easily.
https://dengarden.com/gardening/How-...Garden-Tetanus

http://www.demolitionnews.com/2009/0...-anthrax-risk/

On 08-Mar-17 10:34 PM, newshound wrote:
On 3/8/2017 5:19 PM, Nightjar wrote:
....
What I did with my kitchen, which has dodgy plaster over brick, was to
cover the whole wall with 15mm ply, using frame fixings, then screw the
kitchen units to the ply.

Done something very like that too! Actually to make a built-in corner
unit clear of the floor to hold a TV, but same idea. This was on 18th
century rubble filled stone wall, also about 2 feet thick.

My main problem was that horizontal mortar lines happened to coincide
with where I needed to fit the cabinet brackets, so I couldn't just use
longer screws. The ply could be fixed to brick centres and then allowed
me complete freedom as to where I fitted the brackets.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 09/03/17 09:16, Nightjar wrote:
On 08-Mar-17 10:34 PM, newshound wrote:
On 3/8/2017 5:19 PM, Nightjar wrote:
....
What I did with my kitchen, which has dodgy plaster over brick, was to
cover the whole wall with 15mm ply, using frame fixings, then screw the
kitchen units to the ply.

Done something very like that too! Actually to make a built-in corner
unit clear of the floor to hold a TV, but same idea. This was on 18th
century rubble filled stone wall, also about 2 feet thick.

My main problem was that horizontal mortar lines happened to coincide
with where I needed to fit the cabinet brackets, so I couldn't just use
longer screws. The ply could be fixed to brick centres and then allowed
me complete freedom as to where I fitted the brackets.


I have always found that hacking out whatever is loose and backfilling
with car body filler (P38 etc.) provided a stable place for screws.

It works on loose walls an disintegrated chipbord in kitchen cabinets too.



--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

On 08/03/2017 19:56, Phil L wrote:

No plaster anywhere is strong enough to hold anything major, you need to
drill into the stone, start the screw off in the plug and then knock it in
so that the plug goes into the stone.
ordinary 75mm screws will be enough and just use your normal plugs, frame
fixings aren't required.


I'm pleased you said that, because I thought it's the obvious solution -
ie what I'd try first. This is a longish thread, and I'm surprised
nobody else said it. If worried, you can always drill a clearance hole
in the plaster to get through to the good fixing underneath.

In article ,
Murmansk wrote:
I was fitting some new tall kitchen cupboards and wanted to secure them
to the wall to stop them toppling - I found it really hard to get a
decent fixing in using my usual method of a hole with the SDS and a
PlasPlug. I guess the PlasPlug is all going to be in the plaster. It's
like drilling into a digestive biscuit - I can't get a decent purchase
and I'm glad I'm not trying to hang wall units.

Basically, the softer the wall material the longer the fixing needs to be.

Frame fixings would probably be your best bet.

--
*If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Nightjar was thinking very hard :
My main problem was that horizontal mortar lines happened to coincide with
where I needed to fit the cabinet brackets, so I couldn't just use longer
screws. The ply could be fixed to brick centres and then allowed me complete
freedom as to where I fitted the brackets.


--

In the past, when a fixing must be obtained in a soft mortar joint, I
would clear the mortar out where I needed the fixing and hammer a
wooden wedge in, then drill and fix into that.

On 09-Mar-17 10:57 AM, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Nightjar was thinking very hard :
My main problem was that horizontal mortar lines happened to coincide
with where I needed to fit the cabinet brackets, so I couldn't just
use longer screws. The ply could be fixed to brick centres and then
allowed me complete freedom as to where I fitted the brackets.


--

In the past, when a fixing must be obtained in a soft mortar joint, I
would clear the mortar out where I needed the fixing and hammer a wooden
wedge in, then drill and fix into that.

The problem with that is that I needed a lot of fixings on the same line
and the plaster over the brick was in poor condition. I was not
convinced that I wouldn't end up having to re-plaster the entire wall.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 08/03/2017 18:45, ARW wrote:
On 08/03/2017 17:32, Roger Mills wrote:

You could try some longish masonry screws straight into the solidish
stuff behind the plaster, such as these
http://www.screwfix.com/p/easydrive-...100-pack/9643h

(but available in various lengths).

They are bloody good screws.


But you need to use the correct sized drill bit (usually 6.5mm)
and make sure the drill bit is dead straight. If it, or the chuck
has any wear and liable to wobble then you end up with a hole that
is closer to the diameter of the screw (7.5 mm) so it doesn't
create its own thread in the brick, block or concrete. Then you
need to squirt some oil-based mastic into the hole or insert
something to act like a rawplug.

On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 10:47:03 -0800 (PST), Murmansk wrote:

I'll be able to put up my kitchen cupboards

Hmm, did they have (wall hung) kitchen cupboards in 1893? Is it a
listed house?

On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:36:21 +0000, newshound wrote:

New neighbour started doing something like that. Until the
conservation officer came round.

Hope he was able to convince said neighbour on the need for respect
for old buildings.

On 3/9/2017 10:57 AM, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Nightjar was thinking very hard :
My main problem was that horizontal mortar lines happened to coincide
with where I needed to fit the cabinet brackets, so I couldn't just
use longer screws. The ply could be fixed to brick centres and then
allowed me complete freedom as to where I fitted the brackets.


--

In the past, when a fixing must be obtained in a soft mortar joint, I
would clear the mortar out where I needed the fixing and hammer a wooden
wedge in, then drill and fix into that.

You old traditionalist!

I was always amazed when removing Victorian skirting boards how
effective that method was. Firstly, because you would expect the timber
to dry out, secondly because nailing in-line with the wood fibres is not
particularly secure.

In article ,
newshound wrote:
I was always amazed when removing Victorian skirting boards how
effective that method was. Firstly, because you would expect the timber
to dry out, secondly because nailing in-line with the wood fibres is not
particularly secure.

I suspect it's because they used real wood in those days - rather than the
stuff we get now.

--
*Save the whale - I'll have it for my supper*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 9 March 2017 14:04:54 UTC, newshound wrote:
I was always amazed when removing Victorian skirting boards how
effective that method was. Firstly, because you would expect the timber
to dry out, secondly because nailing in-line with the wood fibres is not
particularly secure.

It was still pretty effective in the late 1960s when they did it in my flat - and it certainly wasn't good quality wood they used as the battens have more shakes than a maraca band.

Owain

wrote on 09/03/2017 :
On Thursday, 9 March 2017 14:04:54 UTC, newshound wrote:
I was always amazed when removing Victorian skirting boards how
effective that method was. Firstly, because you would expect the timber
to dry out, secondly because nailing in-line with the wood fibres is not
particularly secure.

It was still pretty effective in the late 1960s when they did it in my flat -
and it certainly wasn't good quality wood they used as the battens have more
shakes than a maraca band.

Owain

It is very effective, if done properly and you can make the wedge what
ever size works for the gap/hole. When I first started work, prior to
the fibre rawlplugs becoming popular, wood was used for many of the
fixings.

On Thursday, 9 March 2017 14:04:54 UTC, newshound wrote:
On 3/9/2017 10:57 AM, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Nightjar was thinking very hard :
My main problem was that horizontal mortar lines happened to coincide
with where I needed to fit the cabinet brackets, so I couldn't just
use longer screws. The ply could be fixed to brick centres and then
allowed me complete freedom as to where I fitted the brackets.


--

In the past, when a fixing must be obtained in a soft mortar joint, I
would clear the mortar out where I needed the fixing and hammer a wooden
wedge in, then drill and fix into that.

You old traditionalist!

I was always amazed when removing Victorian skirting boards how
effective that method was. Firstly, because you would expect the timber
to dry out, secondly because nailing in-line with the wood fibres is not
particularly secure.

I expect the wood was already dry. It works fine, just is a lot of work.


NT