Decided - since I wanted about 20 - to have some PCBs made.

Never really had anything to do with gerber an exclellon files, so was a
bit apprehensive.

Opted on use a UK maker despite being slightly more expensive.

Asked them to check the files I sent were OK and have had superb service.
Sent a screen shot of how their system sees my files to show where I'd
gone wrong.

So I'm very impressed with PCBtrain. Just hoping the end result is as good
as the service so far.

If I'd made them myself, there would have been quite some waste due to
having to use stock sized boards. They must use much larger boards so
minimal waste. So the cost to me per unit isn't actually that much higher
than DIY - which would have been a lot of work too.

--
*What happens if you get scared half to death twice? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Decided - since I wanted about 20 - to have some PCBs made.

Never really had anything to do with gerber an exclellon files, so was a
bit apprehensive.

Opted on use a UK maker despite being slightly more expensive.

Asked them to check the files I sent were OK and have had superb service.
Sent a screen shot of how their system sees my files to show where I'd
gone wrong.

So I'm very impressed with PCBtrain. Just hoping the end result is as good
as the service so far.

If I'd made them myself, there would have been quite some waste due to
having to use stock sized boards. They must use much larger boards so
minimal waste. So the cost to me per unit isn't actually that much higher
than DIY - which would have been a lot of work too.

I'll be watching with interest Dave.
Before Christmas I thought a future project would benefit from a custom
PCB and started looking at this lot http://ragworm.eu/ who seemed pretty
good and not too dear. There is a price calculator on their home page so
I wonder how they compare with your costs via PCBtrain.

My project has taken a different course with more being done in software
and what hardware I need can live on a prototyping shield fitted onto
the Arduino.

My PCB experience dates back to black tape on mylar and being spoiled
with a wet PCB process where I worked to get home jobs done usually the
same day. Sadly not available to me now I'm retired.

For me the learning curve of mastering PCB cad and interfacing with a
PCB house keeps driving me back to vero board or similar until I really
have no other option.

Bob

On Tuesday, 31 January 2017 20:11:29 UTC, Bob Minchin wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Decided - since I wanted about 20 - to have some PCBs made.

Never really had anything to do with gerber an exclellon files, so was a
bit apprehensive.

Opted on use a UK maker despite being slightly more expensive.

Asked them to check the files I sent were OK and have had superb service.
Sent a screen shot of how their system sees my files to show where I'd
gone wrong.

So I'm very impressed with PCBtrain. Just hoping the end result is as good
as the service so far.

If I'd made them myself, there would have been quite some waste due to
having to use stock sized boards. They must use much larger boards so
minimal waste. So the cost to me per unit isn't actually that much higher
than DIY - which would have been a lot of work too.

I'll be watching with interest Dave.
Before Christmas I thought a future project would benefit from a custom
PCB and started looking at this lot http://ragworm.eu/ who seemed pretty
good and not too dear. There is a price calculator on their home page so
I wonder how they compare with your costs via PCBtrain.

My project has taken a different course with more being done in software
and what hardware I need can live on a prototyping shield fitted onto
the Arduino.

My PCB experience dates back to black tape on mylar and being spoiled
with a wet PCB process where I worked to get home jobs done usually the
same day. Sadly not available to me now I'm retired.

For me the learning curve of mastering PCB cad and interfacing with a
PCB house keeps driving me back to vero board or similar until I really
have no other option.

Bob

I have used PCBtrain a lot and I am happy with the quality and service.
The Express service is useful if you can live without soldermask and
is relatively inexpensive.
I use EasyPC to generate the Gerbers. DesignSpark from RS is a free
cut-down version of EasyPC. RS provide DesignSpark library models for
many of their products.

John


John

On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 20:11:22 +0000, Bob Minchin
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Decided - since I wanted about 20 - to have some PCBs made.

Never really had anything to do with gerber an exclellon files, so was a
bit apprehensive.

Opted on use a UK maker despite being slightly more expensive.

Asked them to check the files I sent were OK and have had superb service.
Sent a screen shot of how their system sees my files to show where I'd
gone wrong.

So I'm very impressed with PCBtrain. Just hoping the end result is as good
as the service so far.

If I'd made them myself, there would have been quite some waste due to
having to use stock sized boards. They must use much larger boards so
minimal waste. So the cost to me per unit isn't actually that much higher
than DIY - which would have been a lot of work too.

I'll be watching with interest Dave.
Before Christmas I thought a future project would benefit from a custom
PCB and started looking at this lot http://ragworm.eu/ who seemed pretty
good and not too dear. There is a price calculator on their home page so
I wonder how they compare with your costs via PCBtrain.

My project has taken a different course with more being done in software
and what hardware I need can live on a prototyping shield fitted onto
the Arduino.

My PCB experience dates back to black tape on mylar and being spoiled
with a wet PCB process where I worked to get home jobs done usually the
same day. Sadly not available to me now I'm retired.

For me the learning curve of mastering PCB cad and interfacing with a
PCB house keeps driving me back to vero board or similar until I really
have no other option.

Bob

I recently made a project that required an interface board to sit on
the GPIO of a Raspberry Pi and have a 1602 LCD display sit on the
other side.

A design for a double sided PCB was provided and I went as far as
ordering the blank PCB and a bottle of FeCl3, but reality kicked in,
because the design was far more intricate than anything I had etched
before, not to mention that I've never attempted a double sided board,
so I didn't even start.

Instead I got some of that double sided board that's a bit like
veroboard, but isolated copper lands, not strips.
I soldered the 0.1in headers, tact switches etc and hand wired the
board with thin PVC covered stranded wire salvaged from a CAT5 patch
cable. The insulated wire is thin enough to pass through the holes.

Stranded wire makes for sounder soldered joints when the joint is made
on the print side rather than passing through from the other side due
to capillary action. (IYSWIM)

I am pleased with the result, it's no bigger than the specified PCB
and for a one off, took me a lot less time than it would if I had
tried to reproduce the artwork and etch one, and that's assuming I
succeeded.





--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
news
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Decided - since I wanted about 20 - to have some PCBs made.

Never really had anything to do with gerber an exclellon files, so was a
bit apprehensive.

Opted on use a UK maker despite being slightly more expensive.

Asked them to check the files I sent were OK and have had superb service.
Sent a screen shot of how their system sees my files to show where I'd
gone wrong.

So I'm very impressed with PCBtrain. Just hoping the end result is as
good
as the service so far.

If I'd made them myself, there would have been quite some waste due to
having to use stock sized boards. They must use much larger boards so
minimal waste. So the cost to me per unit isn't actually that much higher
than DIY - which would have been a lot of work too.

I'll be watching with interest Dave.
Before Christmas I thought a future project would benefit from a custom
PCB and started looking at this lot http://ragworm.eu/ who seemed pretty
good and not too dear. There is a price calculator on their home page so I
wonder how they compare with your costs via PCBtrain.

My project has taken a different course with more being done in software
and what hardware I need can live on a prototyping shield fitted onto the
Arduino.

My PCB experience dates back to black tape on mylar and being spoiled with
a wet PCB process where I worked to get home jobs done usually the same
day. Sadly not available to me now I'm retired.

For me the learning curve of mastering PCB cad and interfacing with a PCB
house keeps driving me back to vero board or similar until I really have
no other option.

Yes, I was spoilt at work where we had CAD, photoplotter and etching tanks.

My first boards back in ~1965 - get this -
Make copies of track layout on a drawing office ammonia film copier (I
needed 12).
Clean some copper clad
Cover with masking tape
Attach a film copy
Cut around the film tracks with a scalpel
Peel out the masking tape on wanted copper
Spray with car paint
Remove the rest of the masking tape
Etch
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz
But you tended not to make mistakes

On 31/01/17 20:11, Bob Minchin wrote:

My project has taken a different course with more being done in software
and what hardware I need can live on a prototyping shield fitted onto
the Arduino.

My PCB experience dates back to black tape on mylar and being spoiled
with a wet PCB process where I worked to get home jobs done usually the
same day. Sadly not available to me now I'm retired.

I was spoiled back in 1991, where at work I had access to electronics
CAD and a flat bed Gerber file driven photoplotter that took anything
upto A2 (or was it A1? - a huge machine) sized sheets of negative film,
and exposed a aperture controlled light source driven across it via a
X-Y table mechanism. This was in a specially constructed photographic
darkroom, so film went next into tanks of developer, fix and wash - and
out with a perfect negative for later UV exposure onto resist
pre-coated copper fibreglass board. Finally that sloshing round warm
ferric chloride in a pyrex dish balanced on top of a hotplate - Ah, I
can still smell the fumes. Not too many 'home jobs' though. No time :-(

--
Adrian C

"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 31/01/17 20:11, Bob Minchin wrote:

My project has taken a different course with more being done in software
and what hardware I need can live on a prototyping shield fitted onto
the Arduino.

My PCB experience dates back to black tape on mylar and being spoiled
with a wet PCB process where I worked to get home jobs done usually the
same day. Sadly not available to me now I'm retired.

I was spoiled back in 1991, where at work I had access to electronics CAD
and a flat bed Gerber file driven photoplotter that took anything upto A2
(or was it A1? - a huge machine) sized sheets of negative film, and
exposed a aperture controlled light source driven across it via a X-Y
table mechanism. This was in a specially constructed photographic
darkroom, so film went next into tanks of developer, fix and wash - and
out with a perfect negative for later UV exposure onto resist pre-coated
copper fibreglass board. Finally that sloshing round warm ferric chloride
in a pyrex dish balanced on top of a hotplate - Ah, I can still smell the
fumes. Not too many 'home jobs' though. No time :-(

A pyrex dish? Pffffffffffft, we had a pucker heated etching tank about 3'
cube with central spinning etchant spray, took around 2 mins
Those were the days, wish I was 17 again, I'd get a proper job

In article ,
Bob Minchin wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Decided - since I wanted about 20 - to have some PCBs made.

Never really had anything to do with gerber an exclellon files, so was a
bit apprehensive.

Opted on use a UK maker despite being slightly more expensive.

Asked them to check the files I sent were OK and have had superb
service. Sent a screen shot of how their system sees my files to show
where I'd gone wrong.

So I'm very impressed with PCBtrain. Just hoping the end result is as good
as the service so far.

If I'd made them myself, there would have been quite some waste due to
having to use stock sized boards. They must use much larger boards so
minimal waste. So the cost to me per unit isn't actually that much higher
than DIY - which would have been a lot of work too.

I'll be watching with interest Dave.
Before Christmas I thought a future project would benefit from a custom
PCB and started looking at this lot http://ragworm.eu/ who seemed pretty
good and not too dear. There is a price calculator on their home page so
I wonder how they compare with your costs via PCBtrain.

My project has taken a different course with more being done in software
and what hardware I need can live on a prototyping shield fitted onto
the Arduino.

My PCB experience dates back to black tape on mylar and being spoiled
with a wet PCB process where I worked to get home jobs done usually the
same day. Sadly not available to me now I'm retired.

I've made my own PCBs from scratch in the past. And have things like a
heated bubble jet tank for etching and a pukka UV lightbox. But have found
it difficult recently to get suitably dense black on the transparancy.
Nothing like as good as I once got years ago.

For me the learning curve of mastering PCB cad and interfacing with a
PCB house keeps driving me back to vero board or similar until I really
have no other option.

I've always designed by boards just using a draw programme - rather than a
proper PCB design one. As it only has to produce a life size transparancy.
And I use the same CAD prog for lots of technical drawings - the devil you
know being easier to use than learning afresh. The latest version of the
CAD prog I'm using can produce gerber and excellon files, so now I've got
a better idea of what those are can produce the same drawing that gerber
and excellon can be made from.

Bob

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 01/02/17 00:02, bm wrote:
"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 31/01/17 20:11, Bob Minchin wrote:

My project has taken a different course with more being done in software
and what hardware I need can live on a prototyping shield fitted onto
the Arduino.

My PCB experience dates back to black tape on mylar and being spoiled
with a wet PCB process where I worked to get home jobs done usually the
same day. Sadly not available to me now I'm retired.

I was spoiled back in 1991, where at work I had access to electronics CAD
and a flat bed Gerber file driven photoplotter that took anything upto A2
(or was it A1? - a huge machine) sized sheets of negative film, and
exposed a aperture controlled light source driven across it via a X-Y
table mechanism. This was in a specially constructed photographic
darkroom, so film went next into tanks of developer, fix and wash - and
out with a perfect negative for later UV exposure onto resist pre-coated
copper fibreglass board. Finally that sloshing round warm ferric chloride
in a pyrex dish balanced on top of a hotplate - Ah, I can still smell the
fumes. Not too many 'home jobs' though. No time :-(

A pyrex dish? Pffffffffffft, we had a pucker heated etching tank about 3'
cube with central spinning etchant spray, took around 2 mins

Luxury

Nah, my Pyrex dish was about 9inch square 2inches deep - sort that a
roast joint would cook in an oven - and would be gently rocked on top of
the hotplate, all inside a chemical fumes cupboard. If the board was a
tiny bit larger than the dish, it would get a little messy, but I
escaped without stained hands and trousers.

The etching solution, which would be strong at the start of the week
then weaker as the days went on, was stored in a drum container that I'd
hoped has been washed previously well as the labelled product it
originally contained was some cyanide based plating solution. I had an
unfortunate instinctive knack of smelling things (doesn't everyone?) to
check if they were indeed clean. Whoops. Did I just really do that? Gulp.

But I got quite good at the process, and even managed some large double
sided boards as well without tragically over etching some parts. Fun days

--
Adrian C

"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 01/02/17 00:02, bm wrote:
"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 31/01/17 20:11, Bob Minchin wrote:

My project has taken a different course with more being done in
software
and what hardware I need can live on a prototyping shield fitted onto
the Arduino.

My PCB experience dates back to black tape on mylar and being spoiled
with a wet PCB process where I worked to get home jobs done usually the
same day. Sadly not available to me now I'm retired.

I was spoiled back in 1991, where at work I had access to electronics
CAD
and a flat bed Gerber file driven photoplotter that took anything upto
A2
(or was it A1? - a huge machine) sized sheets of negative film, and
exposed a aperture controlled light source driven across it via a X-Y
table mechanism. This was in a specially constructed photographic
darkroom, so film went next into tanks of developer, fix and wash - and
out with a perfect negative for later UV exposure onto resist
pre-coated
copper fibreglass board. Finally that sloshing round warm ferric
chloride
in a pyrex dish balanced on top of a hotplate - Ah, I can still smell
the
fumes. Not too many 'home jobs' though. No time :-(

A pyrex dish? Pffffffffffft, we had a pucker heated etching tank about 3'
cube with central spinning etchant spray, took around 2 mins

Luxury

Nah, my Pyrex dish was about 9inch square 2inches deep - sort that a roast
joint would cook in an oven - and would be gently rocked on top of the
hotplate, all inside a chemical fumes cupboard. If the board was a tiny
bit larger than the dish, it would get a little messy, but I escaped
without stained hands and trousers.

The etching solution, which would be strong at the start of the week then
weaker as the days went on, was stored in a drum container that I'd hoped
has been washed previously well as the labelled product it originally
contained was some cyanide based plating solution. I had an unfortunate
instinctive knack of smelling things (doesn't everyone?) to check if they
were indeed clean. Whoops. Did I just really do that? Gulp.

But I got quite good at the process, and even managed some large double
sided boards as well without tragically over etching some parts. Fun days


Fun days indeed
And yes, ISTR the gold plating edge-connector solution was some form of
cyanide.
Done in a fume cupboard. Only because someone told me to
God I feel old, correction, i AM old.
Remember the old ferrite core stores?
Playing startrek on a pdp11 (or something or other, full of oc71's?) using a
punched tape teletype 33 was it?
We had our own Spock (computer guru [conrad lewis]) who managed suicide.
Hmmm, those were the days alright.
Memory is not always a good thing.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:15:20 AM UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 01/02/17 00:02, bm wrote:
"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 31/01/17 20:11, Bob Minchin wrote:

My project has taken a different course with more being done in software
and what hardware I need can live on a prototyping shield fitted onto
the Arduino.

My PCB experience dates back to black tape on mylar and being spoiled
with a wet PCB process where I worked to get home jobs done usually the
same day. Sadly not available to me now I'm retired.

I was spoiled back in 1991, where at work I had access to electronics CAD
and a flat bed Gerber file driven photoplotter that took anything upto A2
(or was it A1? - a huge machine) sized sheets of negative film, and
exposed a aperture controlled light source driven across it via a X-Y
table mechanism. This was in a specially constructed photographic
darkroom, so film went next into tanks of developer, fix and wash - and
out with a perfect negative for later UV exposure onto resist pre-coated
copper fibreglass board. Finally that sloshing round warm ferric chloride
in a pyrex dish balanced on top of a hotplate - Ah, I can still smell the
fumes. Not too many 'home jobs' though. No time :-(

A pyrex dish? Pffffffffffft, we had a pucker heated etching tank about 3'
cube with central spinning etchant spray, took around 2 mins

Luxury

Nah, my Pyrex dish was about 9inch square 2inches deep - sort that a
roast joint would cook in an oven - and would be gently rocked on top of
the hotplate, all inside a chemical fumes cupboard. If the board was a
tiny bit larger than the dish, it would get a little messy, but I
escaped without stained hands and trousers.

The etching solution, which would be strong at the start of the week
then weaker as the days went on, was stored in a drum container that I'd
hoped has been washed previously well as the labelled product it
originally contained was some cyanide based plating solution. I had an
unfortunate instinctive knack of smelling things (doesn't everyone?) to
check if they were indeed clean. Whoops. Did I just really do that? Gulp.

But I got quite good at the process, and even managed some large double
sided boards as well without tragically over etching some parts. Fun days

--
Adrian C

Like others here I have background experience in making PCBs both at the
'hobbyist', and more professional, level.
Live Dave Plowman, if I needed more than a very fewnumber of boards I would
go with one of the 'PCB pool' providers that are thankfully now available.
But FWIW I think the current happy path for doing your own is to

- use a laser printer to print the resist
- apply to the cleaned board
- use Ferric Chloride in small quantities, applied with a sponge

See for instance he

http://www.instructables.com/id/Spon...ch-Circuit-Bo/

I quite fancy finding a need for this just so I can give it a go. I for one
am quite pleased that you can mostly use surface mount components these days,
the worst part of low-quantity PCB making was drilling the holes!

Cheers
Jon N

In article ,
jkn wrote:
Like others here I have background experience in making PCBs both at the
'hobbyist', and more professional, level. Live Dave Plowman, if I needed
more than a very fewnumber of boards I would go with one of the 'PCB
pool' providers that are thankfully now available. But FWIW I think the
current happy path for doing your own is to

- use a laser printer to print the resist - apply to the cleaned
board - use Ferric Chloride in small quantities, applied with a
sponge

Is that the print to a special paper with a laser printer then iron onto
the PCB? I've tried that and found it useless. And have yet to find anyone
who found it OK - apart from very simple stuff. Despite the pretty
pictures I've seen in ads.

The older making a transparency worked very well for ages with my first
two inkjet printers - but not my current one. The blacks don't block the
UV light as they once did. Resulting in some etching of the wanted tracks.


See for instance he

http://www.instructables.com/id/Spon...ch-Circuit-Bo/

I quite fancy finding a need for this just so I can give it a go. I for one
am quite pleased that you can mostly use surface mount components these days,
the worst part of low-quantity PCB making was drilling the holes!

--
*No hand signals. Driver on Viagra*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 01/02/17 10:32, jkn wrote:

I for one
am quite pleased that you can mostly use surface mount components these days,
the worst part of low-quantity PCB making was drilling the holes!

Yup. Mind numbing

--
Adrian C

In article ,
says...

I've made my own PCBs from scratch in the past.

Although I eventually migrated to tape and/or a Letraset
like method (Alfac, I think) and UV box, all my early boards
from the mid 60s - usually one offs - were made like this:

Draw track layout on 0.1" squared graph paper, then cut
laminate to size and fold graph paper tightly round it,
securing on the back with masking tape.

Take a very sharply pointed centrepunch and mark the
location of every hole on the copper through the graph
paper. Carefully remove graph paper for possible re-use.

Take a bottle of nail varnish - dark colours preferred
although black wasn't in vogue in the mid 60s! - and use the
supplied applicator brush to paint the track pattern, using
the centrepunched marks as a guide.

After etching and resist removal, drill board as required at
the centre punched marks.

You can't get more DIY than that!

--

Terry

Bob Minchin wrote:
I'll be watching with interest Dave.
Before Christmas I thought a future project would benefit from a custom
PCB and started looking at this lot http://ragworm.eu/ who seemed pretty
good and not too dear. There is a price calculator on their home page so
I wonder how they compare with your costs via PCBtrain.

They're likely a fair bit cheaper. The main difference with PCBtrain is
they have a variety of different processes you can pick from, while Ragworm
is much more limited.

If you're not in a hurry
http://dirtypcbs.com/store/pcbs
is very cheap if you don't mind waiting for it to come from China.
(or pay for express shipping)

For me the learning curve of mastering PCB cad and interfacing with a
PCB house keeps driving me back to vero board or similar until I really
have no other option.

That's not really a bad option. You can almost certainly do it quicker that
way, unless you hit limits like:
- size constraints
- number of layers
- plated through holes
- signal integrity
- awkward-pitch SMD (1.27mm SMD is doable on padboard)
- need 1

For the times when you do want a PCB but don't want to wait for a fab
roundtrip, I've been pondering non-etch ways - if there's anything less
messy than the ferric chloride method.

Theo

In article b086b826-2e8b-4000-8b11-11a2cf749519
@googlegroups.com, says...

- use a laser printer to print the resist
- apply to the cleaned board


I haven't tried this method yet but I've seen various
references to it. Apparently the secret is in the paper used
and the consensus seems to be that pages from a glossy
magazine provide the best source.

The track layout, of course, has to be a mirror image!

The application method is by using an iron to transfer the
print to the copper.

--

Terry

On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 11:19:32 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Is that the print to a special paper with a laser printer then iron onto
the PCB? I've tried that and found it useless. And have yet to find
anyone who found it OK

Press 'n Peel. I've used it a couple of times and it's done the job.
DesignSpark to do the artwork, saved as a PDF printed using the
monochrome mode (ie black only) of a HP Colour Laser Jet, probably
told it's printing a "transparency" rather than "normal". The real
killer for the system is dust between the film and board when doing
the iron transfer. A speck of dust you can barely see will leave hole
in the transfered resist film.

Other problems were mine, too fine a detail on one board, misaligned
film and only slightly oversized board, Not hot enough for long
enough all over a 2 x 3" board, so one area of tracks lifted at the
peel stage, stayed with the board but not neatly.

I'll learn, I expect any 3rd board I do will be better than the first
two. That's likely to be one to connect a Pi Zero, ethernet module
and solid state relay. These are all simple single sided boards,
though the third one might be double sided. For 20 boards unless they
could be done at least 5 at a time I'd not contemplate the Press 'n
Peel method.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 01/02/17 10:32, jkn wrote:

I for one
am quite pleased that you can mostly use surface mount components
these days, the worst part of low-quantity PCB making was drilling the
holes!

Yup. Mind numbing


I got myself an ancient used PCB drill off Ebay for not a lot. Built like
a tank and zero play in any direction. Adjustable stops for up and down
too. Built in light - which I changed to a LV halogen.

With tungsten bits makes drilling the PCBs easy and fun.

When making my own PCBs, I always included a tiny clear hole in the track
transparency where the actual one was needed. So this would etch and
provide a pilot for the PCB drill.

--
*The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 11:19:32 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Is that the print to a special paper with a laser printer then iron
onto the PCB? I've tried that and found it useless. And have yet to
find anyone who found it OK

Press 'n Peel. I've used it a couple of times and it's done the job.
DesignSpark to do the artwork, saved as a PDF printed using the
monochrome mode (ie black only) of a HP Colour Laser Jet, probably
told it's printing a "transparency" rather than "normal". The real
killer for the system is dust between the film and board when doing
the iron transfer. A speck of dust you can barely see will leave hole
in the transfered resist film.

Despite cleaning the board as per the instructions, I found adhesion to
the copper poor. On several attempts. Might have been down to my cheap
laser printer - but then printer problems was the reason I wanted to try
that over the photo process.

Other problems were mine, too fine a detail on one board, misaligned
film and only slightly oversized board, Not hot enough for long
enough all over a 2 x 3" board, so one area of tracks lifted at the
peel stage, stayed with the board but not neatly.

I found it peeled off at random. And didn't give anything like as crisp a
result as photo. Possibly just about worth is for a very simple PCB - but
pretty well useless where I wanted it.

I'll learn, I expect any 3rd board I do will be better than the first
two. That's likely to be one to connect a Pi Zero, ethernet module
and solid state relay. These are all simple single sided boards,
though the third one might be double sided. For 20 boards unless they
could be done at least 5 at a time I'd not contemplate the Press 'n
Peel method.

--
*There are two kinds of pedestrians... the quick and the dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 1 February 2017 11:29:27 UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 01/02/17 10:32, jkn wrote:

I for one
am quite pleased that you can mostly use surface mount components these days,
the worst part of low-quantity PCB making was drilling the holes!

Yup. Mind numbing

or character building ;-)

Dave like you I thought you had to get the image on the transparency as black as possible but since discovered it is not that critical and what we perceived as problems with the transparency were in fact down to the developer not correctly diluted. What we did find was that setting the printer to transparency setting produced poor results and favoured the glossy photo paper setting.

Richard

On Wednesday, 1 February 2017 16:06:35 UTC, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Dave like you I thought you had to get the image on the transparency as black as possible but since discovered it is not that critical and what we perceived as problems with the transparency were in fact down to the developer not correctly diluted. What we did find was that setting the printer to transparency setting produced poor results and favoured the glossy photo paper setting.

Richard

Temperature can also be important as can agitation (no I'm not refering to wodeny this time)
We have a set up here we use a mixture of etching and/or routing for our PCBs.
Depending on which we think is best for a particular job.

In article ,
Tricky Dicky wrote:
Dave like you I thought you had to get the image on the transparency as
black as possible but since discovered it is not that critical and what
we perceived as problems with the transparency were in fact down to the
developer not correctly diluted. What we did find was that setting the
printer to transparency setting produced poor results and favoured the
glossy photo paper setting.

Thing is I noted the dilutions and settings that worked very well with my
original proper black foils. Are you saying I need to alter the
concentration of the developer? Or that the devloper itself has a life?

--
*No I haven't stolen it , I'm just a **** driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 1 February 2017 16:06:35 UTC, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Dave like you I thought you had to get the image on the transparency
as black as possible but since discovered it is not that critical and
what we perceived as problems with the transparency were in fact down
to the developer not correctly diluted. What we did find was that
setting the printer to transparency setting produced poor results and
favoured the glossy photo paper setting.

Richard

Temperature can also be important as can agitation (no I'm not refering
to wodeny this time) We have a set up here we use a mixture of etching
and/or routing for our PCBs. Depending on which we think is best for a
particular job.

I've never had a problem with the actual etching. It's effectively
exposing the photo resist properly (or developing it) that is my problem.

If I could print a transparency that looks the same as my old ones (which
worked just fine) when holding them up to the light, I'd have eliminated
that as a cause.

--
*I'm reading a book about anti-gravity. I just can't put it down.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 1 February 2017 16:48:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tricky Dicky wrote:
Dave like you I thought you had to get the image on the transparency as
black as possible but since discovered it is not that critical and what
we perceived as problems with the transparency were in fact down to the
developer not correctly diluted. What we did find was that setting the
printer to transparency setting produced poor results and favoured the
glossy photo paper setting.

Thing is I noted the dilutions and settings that worked very well with my
original proper black foils. Are you saying I need to alter the
concentration of the developer? Or that the devloper itself has a life?

I thought they had a life, ours certainly seems to.


--
*No I haven't stolen it , I'm just a **** driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 13:32:24 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 01 Feb 2017 11:19:32 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Is that the print to a special paper with a laser printer then iron
onto the PCB? I've tried that and found it useless. And have yet to
find anyone who found it OK

Press 'n Peel. I've used it a couple of times and it's done the
job.
DesignSpark to do the artwork, saved as a PDF printed using the
monochrome mode (ie black only) of a HP Colour Laser Jet, probably
told it's printing a "transparency" rather than "normal". The real
killer for the system is dust between the film and board when
doing
the iron transfer. A speck of dust you can barely see will leave
hole
in the transfered resist film.

Despite cleaning the board as per the instructions, I found adhesion to
the copper poor. On several attempts. Might have been down to my cheap
laser printer ...

Not sure if you are refering to the "laser print on glossy magazine
page" method or using the commercial "Press 'n Peel" blue stuff.

If the Press 'n Peel I think lack of adhesion is probably down to not
hot enough for long enough and it does need a little bit of pressure
as well. The instructions quote 275 - 325 F which is 135 to 163 C
(150 C mid point), that's pretty hot. The problem being conduction
away from board into what ever it is on.

I found it peeled off at random. And didn't give anything like as crisp
a result as photo. Possibly just about worth is for a very simple PCB -
but pretty well useless where I wanted it.

Strange, my fine detail that was too fine was 5 thou. But the
problesm weren't with the Press 'n Peel that handled it. The problems
were as thermal break around a pad it was too narrow and solder
bridged. As a track the slow etch made it even narrower, the "track"
was text which became almost impossible to read.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
Despite cleaning the board as per the instructions, I found adhesion to
the copper poor. On several attempts. Might have been down to my cheap
laser printer ...

Not sure if you are refering to the "laser print on glossy magazine
page" method or using the commercial "Press 'n Peel" blue stuff.

Commercial press and peel.

If the Press 'n Peel I think lack of adhesion is probably down to not
hot enough for long enough and it does need a little bit of pressure
as well. The instructions quote 275 - 325 F which is 135 to 163 C
(150 C mid point), that's pretty hot. The problem being conduction
away from board into what ever it is on.

I used a domestic ironing iron. Even checked the temperature was ok with
an infra red thermometer. The results I'd describe as poor. I could have
made just about as good a job by drawing onto the board with a photo
resist pen. But it could be down to my el cheapo laser printer. Which
doesn't give a decent deep black even on paper.

I found it peeled off at random. And didn't give anything like as crisp
a result as photo. Possibly just about worth is for a very simple PCB -
but pretty well useless where I wanted it.

Strange, my fine detail that was too fine was 5 thou. But the
problesm weren't with the Press 'n Peel that handled it. The problems
were as thermal break around a pad it was too narrow and solder
bridged. As a track the slow etch made it even narrower, the "track"
was text which became almost impossible to read.

What annoys me is the first photo stuff I did was absolutely excellent.

I've ordered up some new developer from RS and some film from them too -
as both of those I was using are many years old.

--
*DON'T SWEAT THE PETTY THINGS AND DON'T PET THE SWEATY THINGS.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:30:39 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 01/02/17 10:32, jkn wrote:

I for one
am quite pleased that you can mostly use surface mount components
these days, the worst part of low-quantity PCB making was drilling the
holes!

Yup. Mind numbing


I got myself an ancient used PCB drill off Ebay for not a lot. Built like
a tank and zero play in any direction. Adjustable stops for up and down
too. Built in light - which I changed to a LV halogen.

indeed, that would be the kind of tool I would get were I to need to do any more.

With tungsten bits makes drilling the PCBs easy and fun.

you and I must have different ideas of fun...

When making my own PCBs, I always included a tiny clear hole in the track
transparency where the actual one was needed. So this would etch and
provide a pilot for the PCB drill.


+1

With regard to the various experiences of transferring resist, again I have not done this myself (it was photo-resist and UV exposures in my day), there seems to be a "well-regarded" method of laser printing onto *poor quality* colour magazine paper (already printed on, doesn't matter...)

I can't find the original link I had on this but a bit of judicious searching should find a lot of info.

I see there are also people modifying laminating machines instead of using irons, etc...

Jon N

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 4:52:41 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Decided - since I wanted about 20 - to have some PCBs made.

Never really had anything to do with gerber an exclellon files, so was a
bit apprehensive.

Opted on use a UK maker despite being slightly more expensive.

Asked them to check the files I sent were OK and have had superb service.
Sent a screen shot of how their system sees my files to show where I'd
gone wrong.

So I'm very impressed with PCBtrain. Just hoping the end result is as good
as the service so far.

If I'd made them myself, there would have been quite some waste due to
having to use stock sized boards. They must use much larger boards so
minimal waste. So the cost to me per unit isn't actually that much higher
than DIY - which would have been a lot of work too.

The way I read the website they make several designs on the same sheet so can fit them in optimally - I'm sure it's a fairly large sheet, too.
I and others at work used PCB Train and apart from one board where the plated through vias had a problem (copper a little too thick so the resulting hole a bit undersize) everything worked fine. If you don't need solder resist the express service is good and reasonably cheap, too. Not relevant to this discussion but we also used their assembly process - I really didn't fancy assembling 100 boards with nearly six hundred components on each - and found that was fine, too

In article ,
wrote:
If I'd made them myself, there would have been quite some waste due to
having to use stock sized boards. They must use much larger boards so
minimal waste. So the cost to me per unit isn't actually that much
higher than DIY - which would have been a lot of work too.

The way I read the website they make several designs on the same sheet
so can fit them in optimally - I'm sure it's a fairly large sheet, too.
I and others at work used PCB Train and apart from one board where the
plated through vias had a problem (copper a little too thick so the
resulting hole a bit undersize) everything worked fine. If you don't
need solder resist the express service is good and reasonably cheap,
too. Not relevant to this discussion but we also used their assembly
process - I really didn't fancy assembling 100 boards with nearly six
hundred components on each - and found that was fine, too

In this case, only a few will be built initially, and the rest as
required. The cost comes down per unit for bulk, so it made sense to buy
more than enough PCBS in one go, as they don't take up much space to
store. And I quite enjoy building such things - although probably not 100.
;-)

I opted for the three week service to save costs - there's no rush.

--
*You sound reasonable......time to up my medication

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2017 15:29:54 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The instructions quote 275 - 325 F which is 135 to 163 C (150 C
mid
point), that's pretty hot. The problem being conduction away from
board
into what ever it is on.

I used a domestic ironing iron. Even checked the temperature was ok with
an infra red thermometer.

That's what I used, it struggled to get the paper seperator, press 'n
peel and board up to the lower limit when measured by an IR
thermometer. Next time I'll stick a bit of thermal insulation board
between PCB and bench.

But it could be down to my el cheapo laser printer. Which doesn't give a
decent deep black even on paper.

That might be a problem, it needs a reasonable level of toner to bond
to the blue layer when printed and then bond that to the copper when
heated by the iron.

--
Cheers
Dave.