Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did it work OK at first?

On Monday, 5 December 2016 11:07:29 UTC, Halmyre wrote:
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did it work OK at first?

You might enquire whether non-lights still work - vacuum cleaner, oven, fan heater, socketed stuff in general.

Is it the breaker which is instead one of the circuit fuses, or the breaker for a boxful of those? Does Economy 7 seem likely to work, if fitted?

--
SL

On 05/12/16 11:07, Halmyre wrote:
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down
pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no
spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones
yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out.
Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told her to switch all light
switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take all bulbs out of
fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of baffling, and
also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw through a
cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker reset
if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did it work
OK at first?


It's a "circuit breaker" not a contact breaker.


If there was a bang perhaps whatever caused the fault has further
damaged the cable - maybe shorting neutral and earth which would prevent
an RCBO[1] for resetting.

[1] Do you have ab MCB or RCBO? The latter will have a small test button
as well as the main lever.

"Halmyre" wrote in message
...
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant, put
up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or
whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on light,
pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told
her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take
all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of
baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw
through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker
reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did it work OK
at first?

You should've got a man in, Wodney, Mason or PHucker maybe?
LOL
I'll get me coat.

On 05/12/2016 11:07, Halmyre wrote:

Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down
pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no
spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones
yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out.
Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told her to switch all light
switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take all bulbs out of
fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of baffling, and
also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw through a
cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker reset
if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out,

It could be there is a fault on the switched part of the circuit, and
the switch contacts were welded together when it closed the fault
current the first time. It may turn off mechanically but not electrically.

Faulty MCB is another possibility.

Or there may be an (possibly unrelated) fault elsewhere on the circuit.

and why did it work
OK at first?

That's harder to guess at!

You can test the fault after the switch conjecture by disconnecting one
of the wires at the switch, and see if the MCB resets then.

You can test the knackered MCB option by disconnecting the live out from
it in the CU.

If the first mod does not fix it, and the second does, then you have the
fault elsewhere situation to deal with.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 11:25:06 AM UTC, wrote:
On Monday, 5 December 2016 11:07:29 UTC, Halmyre wrote:
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did it work OK at first?

You might enquire whether non-lights still work - vacuum cleaner, oven, fan heater, socketed stuff in general.

Is it the breaker which is instead one of the circuit fuses, or the breaker for a boxful of those? Does Economy 7 seem likely to work, if fitted?



Just the lights, everything else was fine.

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 11:33:32 AM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/12/2016 11:07, Halmyre wrote:

Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down
pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no
spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones
yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out.
Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told her to switch all light
switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take all bulbs out of
fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of baffling, and
also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw through a
cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker reset
if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out,

It could be there is a fault on the switched part of the circuit, and
the switch contacts were welded together when it closed the fault
current the first time. It may turn off mechanically but not electrically.

Faulty MCB is another possibility.

Or there may be an (possibly unrelated) fault elsewhere on the circuit.

and why did it work
OK at first?

That's harder to guess at!

You can test the fault after the switch conjecture by disconnecting one
of the wires at the switch, and see if the MCB resets then.

You can test the knackered MCB option by disconnecting the live out from
it in the CU.

If the first mod does not fix it, and the second does, then you have the
fault elsewhere situation to deal with.



Ta, sadly I don't live near enough to pop over to investigate it, just curious as to the possible causes. Peeved because I've done a fair bit of similar work between my own house, sister-in-laws and parent's without any problems to date.

Parents are going to get a real electrician in to look at it, who will no doubt tut, suck his teeth, shake his head and say "dear oh dear, what cowboy put this in, bleedin' amateurs", etc...

Probably something totally unrelated unless there was a crucial cable
somewhere near where you did put a screw in. Iit has to be one though that
is unswitched as you say.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Halmyre" wrote in message
...
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant, put
up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or
whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on light,
pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told
her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take
all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of
baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw
through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker
reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did it work OK
at first?

I'd imagine a cable above the fitting that in fact feeds the whole circuit
in the flat from the breaker. If a screw went partly through that cable, say
in the void above the ceiling, then it might take a while for it to in fact
finally short out and blow the fuse. It will be a real pain to get at and
fix if it is in such a daft place though, as a hole in the ceiling will be
needed for a connection block of some kind.

Another thought of course is that with unswitched lives in roses these days,
if that wire was not secured in the rose very well and its somehow sprung
and touched something earthy or neutrally, if that is a word, then bang.
Lets hope its the latter as that will be easier to see and fix.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Halmyre" wrote in message
...
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 11:25:06 AM UTC, wrote:
On Monday, 5 December 2016 11:07:29 UTC, Halmyre wrote:
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant,
put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or
whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on
light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to
reset. Told her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy.
Told her to take all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset,
which is kind of baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think
that I put a screw through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but
why won't the breaker reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are
out, and why did it work OK at first?

You might enquire whether non-lights still work - vacuum cleaner, oven,
fan heater, socketed stuff in general.

Is it the breaker which is instead one of the circuit fuses, or the
breaker for a boxful of those? Does Economy 7 seem likely to work, if
fitted?



Just the lights, everything else was fine.

On Monday, 5 December 2016 11:07:29 UTC, Halmyre wrote:
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did it work OK at first?

At the ceiling rose (ie the bit attached to the ceiling) there may well be three terminals; live, neutral and switch wire.
You may have shorted out live and neutral.

The abovementioned live is permanently live regardless of switch position BTW.

Halmyre wrote

Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take
down pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple
T&E, no spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK.

Mum phones yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all
lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to reset.

Which means that there is a short somewhere.

Told her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy.

Which means that the sort isnt in what gets switched.

Told her to take all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset,

Which means that the short is in the fixture or the
wiring to it. Most likely you didnt wire it in properly.
But it could be a shot in the internal wiring of the fixture.

which is kind of baffling,

Nope, very simple to work out what the problem is.
Take the fixture off again, if the breaker now can be
reset, the short is in the fixture. If the breaker still can't
be reset, the short is in the fixed wiring to the fixture.

and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put
a screw through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't),

Or you didnt secure one of the wires properly
and it came out and produced the short.

Or the internal wiring in the fixture is
faulty and thats where the short is.

but why won't the breaker reset if the switch is off

Because the short isnt in the switched circuit.

and all the bulbs are out,

That is only relevant if a bulb has shorted internally,
not something that is a permanent short for long,
but it does sometimes happen with some bulbs.

and why did it work OK at first?

Because the short wasnt there then. If you did put
a screw thru a cable, it didnt short immediately.

If you didnt screw one of the wires into the fixture
properly, it took time to come out and short.

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 11:07:29 AM UTC, Halmyre wrote:
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did it work OK at first?

Update - yep, I'd snagged a wire while I was securing the fitting to its base plate. In my defence it looked (to me at least) like there was twice as much wire in the fitting as was necessary.

However, after the sparky who came out to fix the fault had left, mum found out that the switch wouldn't turn the lights off! - she says it feels 'odd', so it sounds like the switch is borked. Can't believe the bloke didn't actually check the switch.

On 05/12/2016 21:01, Halmyre wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 11:07:29 AM UTC, Halmyre wrote:
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did it work OK at first?

Update - yep, I'd snagged a wire while I was securing the fitting to its base plate. In my defence it looked (to me at least) like there was twice as much wire in the fitting as was necessary.

However, after the sparky who came out to fix the fault had left, mum found out that the switch wouldn't turn the lights off! - she says it feels 'odd', so it sounds like the switch is borked. Can't believe the bloke didn't actually check the switch.



There is always going to be the last occasion that something works, like
a light bulb, anything can fail at any moment.

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 9:03:23 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 05/12/2016 21:01, Halmyre wrote:
On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 11:07:29 AM UTC, Halmyre wrote:
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant, put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to reset. Told her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy. Told her to take all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is kind of baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put a screw through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the breaker reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did it work OK at first?

Update - yep, I'd snagged a wire while I was securing the fitting to its base plate. In my defence it looked (to me at least) like there was twice as much wire in the fitting as was necessary.

However, after the sparky who came out to fix the fault had left, mum found out that the switch wouldn't turn the lights off! - she says it feels 'odd', so it sounds like the switch is borked. Can't believe the bloke didn't actually check the switch.



There is always going to be the last occasion that something works, like
a light bulb, anything can fail at any moment.

GU10 bulbs. They're like buses, work for a while then they all start failing at once. Or it's like dead celebrities, always go in threes...

In article ,
Halmyre wrote:
Update - yep, I'd snagged a wire while I was securing the fitting to its
base plate. In my defence it looked (to me at least) like there was
twice as much wire in the fitting as was necessary.

However, after the sparky who came out to fix the fault had left, mum
found out that the switch wouldn't turn the lights off! - she says it
feels 'odd', so it sounds like the switch is borked. Can't believe the
bloke didn't actually check the switch.

If it is wired with the switch drop from the fitting to the wall, it's
likely he's wired it to the wrong terminal.

--
*Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Brian Gaff wrote

Probably something totally unrelated

Very unlikely indeed IMO.

unless there was a crucial cable somewhere near where you did put a screw
in.

Or the fixture is faulty. Less likely tho given that
the light switch position is irrelevant now.

Iit has to be one though that is unswitched as you say.

"Halmyre" wrote in message
...
Replaced a ceiling light for my parents on Saturday - take down pendant,
put up fancy new new three-bulb fixture, simple T&E, no spurs, loops or
whatever. Everything working AOK. Mum phones yesterday - switched on
light, pop/bang, all lights in flat go out. Contact breaker refuses to
reset. Told her to switch all light switches off, try again - no joy. Told
her to take all bulbs out of fixture - breaker still won't reset, which is
kind of baffling, and also slightly worrying. I can only think that I put
a screw through a cable (and I'm pretty sure I didn't), but why won't the
breaker reset if the switch is off and all the bulbs are out, and why did
it work OK at first?