The prohibition of HFCs seems to be claimed as a major success against
greenhouse gasses. Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane
(R600a) so it seems manufacturers are ahead of the curve on this one, is
the "deal" mainly trumpet-blowing?

On 15/10/16 07:44, Andy Burns wrote:
The prohibition of HFCs seems to be claimed as a major success against
greenhouse gasses. Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane
(R600a) so it seems manufacturers are ahead of the curve on this one, is
the "deal" mainly trumpet-blowing?


I'm still not convinced about having flammable refrigerants like butane...

What happened to ammonia?

On 15/10/2016 07:44, Andy Burns wrote:
The prohibition of HFCs seems to be claimed as a major success against
greenhouse gasses. Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane
(R600a) so it seems manufacturers are ahead of the curve on this one, is
the "deal" mainly trumpet-blowing?

Have you looked at the refrigerants in, for examples, heat pump tumble
dryers?

--
Rod

On Saturday, 15 October 2016 08:15:59 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 15/10/16 07:44, Andy Burns wrote:
The prohibition of HFCs seems to be claimed as a major success against
greenhouse gasses. Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane
(R600a) so it seems manufacturers are ahead of the curve on this one, is
the "deal" mainly trumpet-blowing?


I'm still not convinced about having flammable refrigerants like butane...

What happened to ammonia?

Poisonous in the event of a leak.
CO2 seems to be the future.

On Saturday, 15 October 2016 08:50:45 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Saturday, 15 October 2016 08:15:59 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 15/10/16 07:44, Andy Burns wrote:
The prohibition of HFCs seems to be claimed as a major success against
greenhouse gasses. Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane
(R600a) so it seems manufacturers are ahead of the curve on this one, is
the "deal" mainly trumpet-blowing?


I'm still not convinced about having flammable refrigerants like butane...

What happened to ammonia?

Poisonous in the event of a leak.
CO2 seems to be the future.

Also Ammonia is flammable.

polygonum wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane (R600a)

Have you looked at the refrigerants in, for examples, heat pump tumble
dryers?

Not previously, but some Miele ones do use R134a

On 15/10/2016 08:15, Tim Watts wrote:
On 15/10/16 07:44, Andy Burns wrote:
The prohibition of HFCs seems to be claimed as a major success against
greenhouse gasses. Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane
(R600a) so it seems manufacturers are ahead of the curve on this one, is
the "deal" mainly trumpet-blowing?

Mostly it is an attempt to replace them in airconditioning as well.

I'm still not convinced about having flammable refrigerants like butane...

What happened to ammonia?

Anhydrous ammonia is both poisonous *and* flammable.

Though still it was used in some large scale industrial refridgeration
plant. I can recall an old ice plant for diazo dyes with a 32' flywheel
that made the ground shake on the compression stroke. It made hollow
core ice cubes about the same size as a man in bulk. You could smell
ammonia in the air which made a nice change from the NOx everywhere else
in the shed. Not a good place to work.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 07:44:24 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

The prohibition of HFCs seems to be claimed as a major success against
greenhouse gasses. Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane
(R600a) so it seems manufacturers are ahead of the curve on this one, is
the "deal" mainly trumpet-blowing?

I heard this too. The 'developed' * countries are going first,
followed by China, followed by India. If the goods are made in China
for the European market, will Chinese rules apply (point of
manufacture) or European rules (point of sale). If the former, will
this cause a shift of production to China? If the latter, why would
the Chinese make non-HFC products for export and HFC products for the
home market?

* Someone once asked Mahatma Gandhi what he thought of Western
civilization. “I think it would be a good idea,” he replied.

How efficient are the new gasses over the old. I mean if theey are too much
lower, then we might be healing the ozone hole at the expense of creating
more carbon dioxide in power generation.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The prohibition of HFCs seems to be claimed as a major success against
greenhouse gasses. Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane
(R600a) so it seems manufacturers are ahead of the curve on this one, is
the "deal" mainly trumpet-blowing?

On 15 Oct 2016 08:41, Chris Hogg wrote:


My parents used to have a fridge using the ammonia cycle. It was
gas-powered, with a little gas burner at the back. What always puzzled
me as a kid was a) that it was 'cooled' by a heater, and b) that it
was made by Electrolux.

The one in my motorhome is electrolux, powered either by gas, 12Volt Dc
or 220 volt Ac

--
Flying on Per Ardua ad Astra

On 15/10/16 08:41, Chris Hogg wrote:

My parents used to have a fridge using the ammonia cycle. It was
gas-powered, with a little gas burner at the back.

Yup, same. We removed it in 1986 (lasted us 14 years!). The ice box had
broken, and an igloo used to grow inside where the frozen peas then lived.

What always puzzled
me as a kid was a) that it was 'cooled' by a heater

Yup

, and b) that it
was made by Electrolux.

Yup, I think that too..

Interesting rap video

Electrolux Gas Fridge 'Golden Age' 1962 TV commercial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQCIW1aU1kY

"long life and happiness" :-)

--
Adrian C

In article ,
Chris Hogg writes:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 08:15:54 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 15/10/16 07:44, Andy Burns wrote:
The prohibition of HFCs seems to be claimed as a major success against
greenhouse gasses. Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane
(R600a) so it seems manufacturers are ahead of the curve on this one, is
the "deal" mainly trumpet-blowing?


I'm still not convinced about having flammable refrigerants like butane...

What happened to ammonia?

It got up people's noses!

sorry!

My parents used to have a fridge using the ammonia cycle. It was
gas-powered, with a little gas burner at the back. What always puzzled
me as a kid was a) that it was 'cooled' by a heater, and b) that it
was made by Electrolux.

My grandparents had one too. It never worked properly after conversion
to natural gas - flame kept blowing out, and the gas board kept being
called out to get it working again. Eventually my grandfather went
into one of the Gas Board buildings, walked into one of the offices
(which wasn't open the public), and sat down at someone's desk. He
said he wasn't moving until they fixed his fridge. After a hour or so,
they agreed to buy him an electric fridge.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Brian Gaff wrote

How efficient are the new gasses over the old. I mean if theey are too
much lower, then we might be healing the ozone hole at the expense of
creating more carbon dioxide in power generation.

Not if nukes are used for power generation.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The prohibition of HFCs seems to be claimed as a major success against
greenhouse gasses. Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane
(R600a) so it seems manufacturers are ahead of the curve on this one, is
the "deal" mainly trumpet-blowing?

Andy Burns wrote:
polygonum wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane (R600a)

Have you looked at the refrigerants in, for examples, heat pump tumble
dryers?

Not previously, but some Miele ones do use R134a

There is a large argument about using hydrocarbons in auto air
conditioning as a replacement for 134a .
A mixture of propane and isobutane is used.
the fridge mechanics raise all sorts of dire arguments against, mostly
rubbish because ordinary non licensed people can buy it and it does them
out of a job.They waffle about flammability but coke machines and a lot
of small fridges use butane, and as for cars the air con uses about 300
or so grams,What about the 80 litres or more in the boot of an LPG
car.(it is legal in a lot of the world,not in some.

In article om, F
Murtz writes
Andy Burns wrote:
polygonum wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane (R600a)

Have you looked at the refrigerants in, for examples, heat pump tumble
dryers?

Not previously, but some Miele ones do use R134a

There is a large argument about using hydrocarbons in auto air
conditioning as a replacement for 134a .
A mixture of propane and isobutane is used.
the fridge mechanics raise all sorts of dire arguments against, mostly
rubbish because ordinary non licensed people can buy it and it does
them out of a job.They waffle about flammability but coke machines and
a lot of small fridges use butane, and as for cars the air con uses
about 300 or so grams,What about the 80 litres or more in the boot of
an LPG car.(it is legal in a lot of the world,not in some.
It's legal here if it's properly fitted.
--
bert

bert wrote:
In article om, F
Murtz writes
Andy Burns wrote:
polygonum wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Even my 9+ year old fridge-freeze uses isobutane (R600a)

Have you looked at the refrigerants in, for examples, heat pump tumble
dryers?

Not previously, but some Miele ones do use R134a

There is a large argument about using hydrocarbons in auto air
conditioning as a replacement for 134a .
A mixture of propane and isobutane is used.
the fridge mechanics raise all sorts of dire arguments against, mostly
rubbish because ordinary non licensed people can buy it and it does
them out of a job.They waffle about flammability but coke machines and
a lot of small fridges use butane, and as for cars the air con uses
about 300 or so grams,What about the 80 litres or more in the boot of
an LPG car.(it is legal in a lot of the world,not in some.
It's legal here if it's properly fitted.
I really meant it is legal for hydrocarbon refrigerants