An energy first as UK successfully transmits data via national
electricity grid

New technology is a significant step towards the creation of virtual
power stations that would enable smarter electricity use by homes and
businesses

Data has been transmitted across a national electricity grid for the
first time, in what could be a significant step towards the creation of
virtual power stations, where many thousands of homes and businesses
combine to manage electricity use more smartly.

The new technology could lead to lower energy bills for consumers who
allow small variations in the energy consumption of their appliances,
such as water heaters or freezers.

The flexibility provided by thousands of appliances combined could
reduce peaks in energy use and remove the need for some large new gas or
nuclear power stations or polluting diesel generator farms that are
started up in times of short supply.

The new data system, created using telecoms technology by Reactive
Technologies (RT) and now successfully tested on the UKs National Grid,
could also allow the optimum use of intermittent renewable energy, an
important feature given the fast-rising proportion of green energy on
the grid.

Rest of article:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ectricity-grid

Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to
reduce it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any
system like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.

--
Rod

In message , polygonum
writes
An energy first as UK successfully transmits data via national
electricity grid

New technology is a significant step towards the creation of virtual
power stations that would enable smarter electricity use by homes and
businesses

Data has been transmitted across a national electricity grid for the
first time, in what could be a significant step towards the creation of
virtual power stations, where many thousands of homes and businesses
combine to manage electricity use more smartly.

The new technology could lead to lower energy bills for consumers who
allow small variations in the energy consumption of their appliances,
such as water heaters or freezers.

The flexibility provided by thousands of appliances combined could
reduce peaks in energy use and remove the need for some large new gas
or nuclear power stations or polluting diesel generator farms that are
started up in times of short supply.

The new data system, created using telecoms technology by Reactive
Technologies (RT) and now successfully tested on the UKs National
Grid, could also allow the optimum use of intermittent renewable
energy, an important feature given the fast-rising proportion of green
energy on the grid.

Rest of article:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-first-as-uk-s
uccessfully-transmits-data-via-national-electricity-grid

Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to
reduce it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any
system like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.

More importantly:-) outside the terms of their existing wayleaves for
either overhead or buried cables.

Must give the CLA a nudge! and join Harry in the consumer rip off
bonanza.


--
Tim Lamb

On 10/11/2016 7:17 PM, polygonum wrote:
An energy first as UK successfully transmits data via national
electricity grid

New technology is a significant step towards the creation of virtual
power stations that would enable smarter electricity use by homes and
businesses

Data has been transmitted across a national electricity grid for the
first time, in what could be a significant step towards the creation of
virtual power stations, where many thousands of homes and businesses
combine to manage electricity use more smartly.

The new technology could lead to lower energy bills for consumers who
allow small variations in the energy consumption of their appliances,
such as water heaters or freezers.

The flexibility provided by thousands of appliances combined could
reduce peaks in energy use and remove the need for some large new gas or
nuclear power stations or polluting diesel generator farms that are
started up in times of short supply.

The new data system, created using telecoms technology by Reactive
Technologies (RT) and now successfully tested on the UKs National Grid,
could also allow the optimum use of intermittent renewable energy, an
important feature given the fast-rising proportion of green energy on
the grid.

Rest of article:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ectricity-grid


Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to
reduce it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any
system like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.



On "hacking", the new system is digital. So it is as secure (or
insecure) as the encryption and the design of the access points.

Also I somehow doubt it was using truck-sized resistors. Reactance, perhaps.

On 11/10/2016 20:33, newshound wrote:
On 10/11/2016 7:17 PM, polygonum wrote:

Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to
reduce it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any
system like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.



On "hacking", the new system is digital. So it is as secure (or
insecure) as the encryption and the design of the access points.

Also I somehow doubt it was using truck-sized resistors. Reactance,
perhaps.



Doubt to your heart's content, you might be absolutely right, but my
comment is based on the quoted article:

"To test the new technology, RT set up a handful of electrical devices -
truck-sized resistors - across the UK to generate the messages and then
installed 20 listening receivers in other places, connected only via the
National Grid. When the messages were sent out, they were successfully
received."

--
Rod

Chris Hogg wrote:

how can a resistor, truck-sized or otherwise "insert(s) the
data as small changes in the 50Hz signal"?

causing a sequence of voltage drops, by switching it in and out of
circuit, at a guess

On Tuesday, 11 October 2016 19:17:41 UTC+1, polygonum wrote:
Data has been transmitted across a national electricity grid for the
first time,

I don't know about 'across the grid' but mains-borne 'ripple control' was used for air raid warning and street light control during WWII.

Owain

on 11/10/2016, supposed :
I don't know about 'across the grid' but mains-borne 'ripple control' was
used for air raid warning and street light control during WWII.

I didn't know that - have you a web site source for more information
please?

On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 20:08:43 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

More importantly:-) outside the terms of their existing wayleaves for
either overhead or buried cables.

Let me know how you get on as I argued this point and the DNO said
that as they were not selling the bandwidth on the fibre strung along
the top of our 132kV pylon was covered by the existing wayleave.

AJH

newshound wrote:

On 10/11/2016 7:17 PM, polygonum wrote:
An energy first as UK successfully transmits data via national
electricity grid

New technology is a significant step towards the creation of virtual
power stations that would enable smarter electricity use by homes and
businesses

Data has been transmitted across a national electricity grid for the
first time, in what could be a significant step towards the creation of
virtual power stations, where many thousands of homes and businesses
combine to manage electricity use more smartly.

The new technology could lead to lower energy bills for consumers who
allow small variations in the energy consumption of their appliances,
such as water heaters or freezers.

The flexibility provided by thousands of appliances combined could
reduce peaks in energy use and remove the need for some large new gas or
nuclear power stations or polluting diesel generator farms that are
started up in times of short supply.

The new data system, created using telecoms technology by Reactive
Technologies (RT) and now successfully tested on the UK's National Grid,
could also allow the optimum use of intermittent renewable energy, an
important feature given the fast-rising proportion of green energy on
the grid.

Rest of article:


https://www.theguardian.com/environm...first-as-uk-su
ccessfully-transmits-data-via-national-electricity-grid


Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to
reduce it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any
system like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.



On "hacking", the new system is digital. So it is as secure (or
insecure) as the encryption and the design of the access points.

Also I somehow doubt it was using truck-sized resistors. Reactance, perhaps.

I agree. Most likely tiny amounts of phase modulation.

--

Roger Hayter

"polygonum" wrote in message
...
An energy first as UK successfully transmits data via national
electricity grid

New technology is a significant step towards the creation of virtual power
stations that would enable smarter electricity use by homes and businesses

Data has been transmitted across a national electricity grid for the first
time, in what could be a significant step towards the creation of virtual
power stations, where many thousands of homes and businesses combine to
manage electricity use more smartly.

The new technology could lead to lower energy bills for consumers who
allow small variations in the energy consumption of their appliances, such
as water heaters or freezers.

The flexibility provided by thousands of appliances combined could reduce
peaks in energy use and remove the need for some large new gas or nuclear
power stations or polluting diesel generator farms that are started up in
times of short supply.

The new data system, created using telecoms technology by Reactive
Technologies (RT) and now successfully tested on the UKs National Grid,
could also allow the optimum use of intermittent renewable energy, an
important feature given the fast-rising proportion of green energy on the
grid.

Rest of article:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ectricity-grid

Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to reduce
it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any system
like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.

But net banking and the mobile phone system is adequately secure.

Military drones in spades.

Perfectly possible.

On Tuesday, 11 October 2016 19:17:41 UTC+1, polygonum wrote:
An energy first as UK successfully transmits data via national
electricity grid

New technology is a significant step towards the creation of virtual
power stations that would enable smarter electricity use by homes and
businesses

Data has been transmitted across a national electricity grid for the
first time, in what could be a significant step towards the creation of
virtual power stations, where many thousands of homes and businesses
combine to manage electricity use more smartly.

The new technology could lead to lower energy bills for consumers who
allow small variations in the energy consumption of their appliances,
such as water heaters or freezers.

The flexibility provided by thousands of appliances combined could
reduce peaks in energy use and remove the need for some large new gas or
nuclear power stations or polluting diesel generator farms that are
started up in times of short supply.

The new data system, created using telecoms technology by Reactive
Technologies (RT) and now successfully tested on the UKs National Grid,
could also allow the optimum use of intermittent renewable energy, an
important feature given the fast-rising proportion of green energy on
the grid.

Rest of article:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ectricity-grid

Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to
reduce it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any
system like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.

--
Rod

Data was being transmitted on the grid back in the 1970s.
Eg, you could buy baby alarms which plugged into 13a sockets, data transmitted through the house wiring

On 11/10/16 21:53, wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 October 2016 19:17:41 UTC+1, polygonum wrote:
Data has been transmitted across a national electricity grid for the
first time,

I don't know about 'across the grid' but mains-borne 'ripple control' was used for air raid warning and street light control during WWII.

Owain



Later nuclear attack sirens were handled by something on the GPO side, IIRC.

The did try to switch streetlamps (dawn/dusk) using a single harmonic on
top of the LV mains and a tuned relay in each lamppost sometime in the
50s-60s, but apparently passing trains (on 3rd rail services) were prone
to making them flash.

And then of course many many radio frequencies, already polluted by
powerline adaptors and badly designed swith mode psus would be totally
unusable anywhere in the country. What a bummer.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"polygonum" wrote in message
...
An energy first as UK successfully transmits data via national
electricity grid

New technology is a significant step towards the creation of virtual power
stations that would enable smarter electricity use by homes and businesses

Data has been transmitted across a national electricity grid for the first
time, in what could be a significant step towards the creation of virtual
power stations, where many thousands of homes and businesses combine to
manage electricity use more smartly.

The new technology could lead to lower energy bills for consumers who
allow small variations in the energy consumption of their appliances, such
as water heaters or freezers.

The flexibility provided by thousands of appliances combined could reduce
peaks in energy use and remove the need for some large new gas or nuclear
power stations or polluting diesel generator farms that are started up in
times of short supply.

The new data system, created using telecoms technology by Reactive
Technologies (RT) and now successfully tested on the UK's National Grid,
could also allow the optimum use of intermittent renewable energy, an
important feature given the fast-rising proportion of green energy on the
grid.

Rest of article:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ectricity-grid

Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to reduce
it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any system
like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.

--
Rod

On 11/10/2016 21:06, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 20:47:38 +0100, polygonum
wrote:

On 11/10/2016 20:33, newshound wrote:
On 10/11/2016 7:17 PM, polygonum wrote:

Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to
reduce it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any
system like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.



On "hacking", the new system is digital. So it is as secure (or
insecure) as the encryption and the design of the access points.

Also I somehow doubt it was using truck-sized resistors. Reactance,
perhaps.



Doubt to your heart's content, you might be absolutely right, but my
comment is based on the quoted article:

"To test the new technology, RT set up a handful of electrical devices -
truck-sized resistors - across the UK to generate the messages and then
installed 20 listening receivers in other places, connected only via the
National Grid. When the messages were sent out, they were successfully
received."

Yebbut...how can a resistor, truck-sized or otherwise "insert(s) the
data as small changes in the 50Hz signal"?

They wired it up with a Russ Andrew's cable?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tuesday, 11 October 2016 22:09:32 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I don't know about 'across the grid' but mains-borne 'ripple control' was
used for air raid warning and street light control during WWII.
I didn't know that - have you a web site source for more information
please?

Early implementations of ripple control occurred during World War II in various parts of the world using a system that communicates over the electrical distribution system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_m...Ripple_control

New Scientist, 21 April 1983, page 170
http://tinyurl.com/jb8brxf (Google Books)

The other resources I have, which describe the system in detail, are Newnes electrical books from the 1940s and 1950s.

Owain

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
on 11/10/2016, supposed :
I don't know about 'across the grid' but mains-borne 'ripple control' was
used for air raid warning and street light control during WWII.

I didn't know that - have you a web site source for more information
please?

Many years ago the London Science Museum had an exhibit of this. Bursts of
audio tone were added on or off every second it seemed. A tuned circuit
reacted to the audio by giving a swinging armature on a spring a kick at
every burst. The swing rate was tuned to the burst rate, and when the
armature had built up a sufficient amplitude of swing it operated a switch
for the street light. I can't remember how the light was switched off.
--
Dave W

"Dave W" wrote in message
...

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
on 11/10/2016, supposed :
I don't know about 'across the grid' but mains-borne 'ripple control'
was used for air raid warning and street light control during WWII.

I didn't know that - have you a web site source for more information
please?

Many years ago the London Science Museum had an exhibit of this. Bursts of
audio tone were added on or off every second it seemed. A tuned circuit
reacted to the audio by giving a swinging armature on a spring a kick at
every burst. The swing rate was tuned to the burst rate, and when the
armature had built up a sufficient amplitude of swing it operated a switch
for the street light. I can't remember how the light was switched off.
--
Dave W

I've now found this interesting site that shows circuits and photos of the
sort of thing I saw:
http://www.delahyde.com/tauranga/pag...e_control.html
It seems that a different tone burst sequence was used to switch off the
light.
--
Dave W

Chris Hogg formulated the question :
At about the same time, in the early
1960's, I had an ex-WD Marconi CR100 communications receiver. I'm not
sure quite what the source of the sound was, possibly a loose winding
in the mains transformer, but when the receiver was on I could hear
those audio tone pulses in the early evening, lasting for perhaps 30
seconds or so, and at the same time the street lights in our area came
on. It was a beep-beep-beep etc.

We had a two bar electric fire and when on, would reproduce the tones.
That would have been around 1957, because I had initially convinced
myself it was somehow picking up the Sputnik as it passed over.

We had gas street lighting in those days, so I would never see the
electric lights come on.

On 12 Oct 2016 08:31, Brian Gaff wrote:
And then of course many many radio frequencies, already polluted by
powerline adaptors and badly designed swith mode psus would be totally
unusable anywhere in the country. What a bummer.
Brian

I might be missing something here but just an hour ago I did a favour
for a friend and took a card to a shop, gave them some money and they
printed out a receipt with a multi digit number on it. I then typed *
long number# into a keypad by the meter and it credited the money to the
electricity meter. As far as I can see no telephone line is connected so
how does that work? At no time other than at the shop did I need the card.

--
Flying on Per Ardua ad Astra

On Wednesday, 12 October 2016 11:35:26 UTC+1, Zephirum wrote:
I might be missing something here but just an hour ago I did a favour
for a friend and took a card to a shop, gave them some money and they
printed out a receipt with a multi digit number on it. I then typed *
long number# into a keypad by the meter and it credited the money to the
electricity meter. As far as I can see no telephone line is connected so
how does that work? At no time other than at the shop did I need the card.

The *longnumber# will be an encrypted string for that particular meter including the amount of credit to be added, issued from the supplier's database over the paypoint network.

If it's Northern Ireland Keypad it's usually a 20 digit number, but 40 and 60 digit numbers are also used occasionally and can be used to encode a rate change.

The supplier's database and the customer meter will be reconciled with a physical meter reading (in theory annually).

Owain

On 11/10/2016 21:06, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 20:47:38 +0100, polygonum
wrote:

On 11/10/2016 20:33, newshound wrote:
On 10/11/2016 7:17 PM, polygonum wrote:

Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to
reduce it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any
system like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.



On "hacking", the new system is digital. So it is as secure (or
insecure) as the encryption and the design of the access points.

Also I somehow doubt it was using truck-sized resistors. Reactance,
perhaps.



Doubt to your heart's content, you might be absolutely right, but my
comment is based on the quoted article:

"To test the new technology, RT set up a handful of electrical devices -
truck-sized resistors - across the UK to generate the messages and then
installed 20 listening receivers in other places, connected only via the
National Grid. When the messages were sent out, they were successfully
received."

Yebbut...how can a resistor, truck-sized or otherwise "insert(s) the
data as small changes in the 50Hz signal"? I suspect mis-reporting
somewhere along the line.

Well, it probably is misreporting, but varying a resistive load would
cause *some* phase shift - don't forget all those transformer coils and
generator windings.

Cheers
--
Syd

On 12 Oct 2016 14:00, wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 October 2016 11:35:26 UTC+1, Zephirum wrote:
I might be missing something here but just an hour ago I did a favour
for a friend and took a card to a shop, gave them some money and they
printed out a receipt with a multi digit number on it. I then typed *
long number# into a keypad by the meter and it credited the money to the
electricity meter. As far as I can see no telephone line is connected so
how does that work? At no time other than at the shop did I need the card.

The *longnumber# will be an encrypted string for that particular meter including the amount of credit to be added, issued from the supplier's database over the paypoint network.

If it's Northern Ireland Keypad it's usually a 20 digit number, but 40 and 60 digit numbers are also used occasionally and can be used to encode a rate change.

The supplier's database and the customer meter will be reconciled with a physical meter reading (in theory annually).

Owain

Ah OK thanks for that so the meter has an algorithm thing to read the 20
digit number, not magic at all. It's republic rather than north.

--
Flying on Per Ardua ad Astra

Syd Rumpo wrote:

On 11/10/2016 21:06, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 20:47:38 +0100, polygonum
wrote:

On 11/10/2016 20:33, newshound wrote:
On 10/11/2016 7:17 PM, polygonum wrote:

Hopefully the apparent need for truck-sized resistors makes it more
difficult to hack than some things - but what if someone were to hijack
the control of this system? So that devices increased their consumption
(as much as they can) at a critical moment when the real need is to
reduce it as fast as possible? The bigger the potential benefits of any
system like this, the bigger the potential problems if mis-used.



On "hacking", the new system is digital. So it is as secure (or
insecure) as the encryption and the design of the access points.

Also I somehow doubt it was using truck-sized resistors. Reactance,
perhaps.



Doubt to your heart's content, you might be absolutely right, but my
comment is based on the quoted article:

"To test the new technology, RT set up a handful of electrical devices -
truck-sized resistors - across the UK to generate the messages and then
installed 20 listening receivers in other places, connected only via the
National Grid. When the messages were sent out, they were successfully
received."

Yebbut...how can a resistor, truck-sized or otherwise "insert(s) the
data as small changes in the 50Hz signal"? I suspect mis-reporting
somewhere along the line.

Well, it probably is misreporting, but varying a resistive load would
cause *some* phase shift - don't forget all those transformer coils and
generator windings.

Cheers

I don't see how; the variable resistive load constituting the the
instanttaneous power consumption of the country would overwhelm it if it
did.

--

Roger Hayter