Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions - yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.

On 19/08/16 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions - yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.

Better built and better specced. Early car electronics were dire.


--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

On 19/08/2016 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions - yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.

It'll be simply that the car ones are built better. It costs a bit more
to do so, but a) they have to be because of the expected life and
conditions they're operated on, b) on something which costs 10K there's
more money available, and c) a manufacturer which skimped would soon get
a terrible reputation - people complain a lot more about their cars not
working than their washing machines.

Well washing machines pcbs get shaken a lot don't they, they also seem to
suffer issues of solder joints going dry on mains carrying parts. My
suspicion is they are not made very well in the first place with lead free
solder that is mostly crap.
In cars, much of the kit is better made and housed at least the sensitive
stuff is as its a higher value product and people would expect it not to go
wrong for both safety reasons and of course reliability. Washing machines
seem to have an accepted official life of no more than 7 years or so these
days, though many do last longer of course.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Remember, if you don't like where I post
or what I say, you don't have to
read my posts! :-)
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.236...
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a
fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions - yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.

In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer
wit circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in
a fairly stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex
on-board systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying
conditions - yet they seem to be incredibly reliable.

Cheapest components? Car electronics are in a hostile environment and are
expected to have a decent life. Components specified for the odd voltage
spike you get in cars, rather than the absolute minimum in a more
controlled environment.

So saying, the PCB in my Viessmann boiler is beautifully made. As well it
might be at a spare part price of 500 quid. ;-)

--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19/08/2016 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions - yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.


Well for some value of "incredibly". According to the AA etc over half
of all breakdown calls they get are caused by electrical faults.

In both cases, of course, the manufacturers want the device to fail
after a few years, ideally after the guarantee has expired so you buy a
new one. Sometimes they get their timing wrong, of course.

--
Clive Page

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer
wit circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in
a fairly stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex
on-board systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying
conditions - yet they seem to be incredibly reliable.

Cheapest components? Car electronics are in a hostile environment and are
expected to have a decent life. Components specified for the odd voltage
spike you get in cars,

[Snip]

and, of course, for the very large temperature swing

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
On 19/08/2016 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer
wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a
fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions -
yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.


Well for some value of "incredibly". According to the AA etc over half of
all breakdown calls they get are caused by electrical faults.

In both cases, of course, the manufacturers want the device to fail after
a few years, ideally after the guarantee has expired so you buy a new one.
Sometimes they get their timing wrong, of course.

Failing computer boards cost me £2000 in repairs on my last car (Citroen).
I've gone for a car made in a different country now, in the hope that the
boards won't be made in the same factory.
--
Dave W

Clive Page wrote in
:

On 19/08/2016 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to
suffer wit circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple
and are in a fairly stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have
very complex on-board systems coping with high speed signals and
widely varying conditions - yet they seem to be incredibly reliable.


Well for some value of "incredibly". According to the AA etc over
half of all breakdown calls they get are caused by electrical faults.

In both cases, of course, the manufacturers want the device to fail
after a few years, ideally after the guarantee has expired so you buy
a new one. Sometimes they get their timing wrong, of course.


Maybe - but rarely due to the "brains" of the car.

Failing computer boards cost me £2000 in repairs on my last car
(Citroen). I've gone for a car made in a different country now, in the
hope that the boards won't be made in the same factory.

Input or output devices could cause the board to fail!

In article ,
Clive Page wrote:
On 19/08/2016 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions - yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.


Well for some value of "incredibly". According to the AA etc over half
of all breakdown calls they get are caused by electrical faults.

Could well be. The same could be said of a washing machine or boiler. But
is it down to a circuit board?

In both cases, of course, the manufacturers want the device to fail
after a few years, ideally after the guarantee has expired so you buy a
new one. Sometimes they get their timing wrong, of course.

--
*I thought I wanted a career. Turns out I just wanted paychecks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave W wrote:
Failing computer boards cost me £2000 in repairs on my last car
(Citroen). I've gone for a car made in a different country now, in the
hope that the boards won't be made in the same factory.

Do Citroen use their own?

Never ceases to amaze me - the cost of some of those spares. No way can it
cost much more than a laptop.

--
*Eschew obfuscation *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Saturday, 20 August 2016 00:18:22 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Clive Page wrote:
On 19/08/2016 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:

Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions - yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.


Well for some value of "incredibly". According to the AA etc over half
of all breakdown calls they get are caused by electrical faults.

Could well be. The same could be said of a washing machine or boiler. But
is it down to a circuit board?

I thought batteries were the prime cause these days.


NT

On 20/08/16 08:42, wrote:
On Saturday, 20 August 2016 00:18:22 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Clive Page wrote:
On 19/08/2016 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:

Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions - yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.


Well for some value of "incredibly". According to the AA etc over half
of all breakdown calls they get are caused by electrical faults.

Could well be. The same could be said of a washing machine or boiler. But
is it down to a circuit board?

I thought batteries were the prime cause these days.

That is an electrical fault ;-)

Or was that your point?

Crucial (near) breakdowns I have had in the last few years have been
fuel pumps.




NT



--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 19/08/2016 20:27, Dave W wrote:
Failing computer boards cost me £2000 in repairs on my last car (Citroen).
I've gone for a car made in a different country now, in the hope that the
boards won't be made in the same factory.

It pays to consult the reliability figures published by insurance
companies and others. There are some exceptions but the general pattern
is clear: Japanese cars made in Japan are most reliable, Japanese brands
made in European factories are next, and European brands made in Europe
are least reliable. One can draw one's own conclusions about the
relative contributions of good design and good workmanship.

--
Clive Page

On Saturday, 20 August 2016 08:56:15 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/08/16 08:42, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 20 August 2016 00:18:22 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Clive Page wrote:
On 19/08/2016 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:

Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions - yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.


Well for some value of "incredibly". According to the AA etc over half
of all breakdown calls they get are caused by electrical faults.

Could well be. The same could be said of a washing machine or boiler. But
is it down to a circuit board?

I thought batteries were the prime cause these days.

That is an electrical fault ;-)

yeees

Or was that your point?

the point was it's mainly batteries not ECUs.

Crucial (near) breakdowns I have had in the last few years have been
fuel pumps.


NT

"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.222...


Failing computer boards cost me £2000 in repairs on my last car
(Citroen). I've gone for a car made in a different country now, in the
hope that the boards won't be made in the same factory.

Input or output devices could cause the board to fail!

Of course, but the board should be designed to be immune. Also in my case
two boards were involved. When one faulty board was replaced by the latest
version, it could not communicate with the other board, so that had to be
replaced by the latest version as well.
--
Dave W

In article ,
wrote:
On Saturday, 20 August 2016 00:18:22 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Clive Page wrote:
On 19/08/2016 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:

Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to
suffer wit circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple
and are in a fairly stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand
have very complex on-board systems coping with high speed signals
and widely varying conditions - yet they seem to be incredibly
reliable.


Well for some value of "incredibly". According to the AA etc over
half of all breakdown calls they get are caused by electrical
faults.

Could well be. The same could be said of a washing machine or boiler.
But is it down to a circuit board?

I thought batteries were the prime cause these days.


The car battery? Quite likely. Quiescent draw in some cars means it may
not last leaving the car when on holiday (a long one). And no battery
lasts for ever.

Probably just me, but I didn't immediately think of a flat battery as a
fault as a such. Or a puncture as a breakdown, etc. Neither would I call
out a breakdown service for.

--
*When you get a bladder infection urine trouble.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions - yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.

The white goods market is very competitive, and all that counts is
price. Therefore the manufacturer cuts costs wherever possible - a quarter
of a penny on a part is a worthwhile saving. That means the boundaries of
reliability are pushed in the name of price, so there's no margin to spare
if anything goes wrong.

Theo

In article ,
Dave W wrote:

"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.222...


Failing computer boards cost me £2000 in repairs on my last car
(Citroen). I've gone for a car made in a different country now, in the
hope that the boards won't be made in the same factory.

Input or output devices could cause the board to fail!

Of course, but the board should be designed to be immune. Also in my
case two boards were involved. When one faulty board was replaced by the
latest version, it could not communicate with the other board, so that
had to be replaced by the latest version as well.

Big snag with all that is you're in the hands of the garage. And have to
accept what they say. Not the most honest trade in the world - or the most
competent.

There used to be a contributor to here who re-conned car ECUs on an
exchange basis (ATP?). Rather like Geoff at CET?.

He said that something like 60% of the 'faulty' boards he got back after
an exchange was was supplied were no fault found. But the customer still
got charged.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 20/08/2016 11:24, Dave W wrote:
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.222...


Failing computer boards cost me £2000 in repairs on my last car
(Citroen). I've gone for a car made in a different country now, in the
hope that the boards won't be made in the same factory.

Input or output devices could cause the board to fail!

Of course, but the board should be designed to be immune. Also in my case
two boards were involved. When one faulty board was replaced by the latest
version, it could not communicate with the other board, so that had to be
replaced by the latest version as well.


The absolute manifold pressure sensor on my Astra F had three
connections, +5V supply, ground and analogue return. The
connector did not have gold-flashed pins which under the
bonnet of a car is a silly cost saving exercise. Ditto the
rad temp sensor.

I suspect a lot of people are paying out large sums to have
circuit boards in cars replaced, when in many cases simply
pulling the connector off and replacing, wipes the surface
corrosion off the pins and cures the fault anyway.

Most garage grease monkeys don't appreciate the difference
between something with a 12V supply and another sensor
with a +5 logic supply. Spraying WD40 all over the connector
pins is the sort of dumb thing they try.

All the backplane connectors in my computer, sitting in my nice
warm dry 'office' are gold-flashed.

On 20/08/2016 00:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave W wrote:
Failing computer boards cost me £2000 in repairs on my last car
(Citroen). I've gone for a car made in a different country now, in the
hope that the boards won't be made in the same factory.

Do Citroen use their own?

Never ceases to amaze me - the cost of some of those spares. No way can it
cost much more than a laptop.

Neighbours Renault Megane needed a complete new instrument panel
when it went blank. £400 just for the part. It might have been
something simple like a diode or voltage regulator but no-one
has the time or skills to investigate.

On Saturday, 20 August 2016 12:32:39 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Big snag with all that is you're in the hands of the garage. And have to
accept what they say. Not the most honest trade in the world - or the most
competent.

There used to be a contributor to here who re-conned car ECUs on an
exchange basis (ATP?). Rather like Geoff at CET?.

He said that something like 60% of the 'faulty' boards he got back after
an exchange was was supplied were no fault found. But the customer still
got charged.

That's to be expected with connection problems one gets in high vibration environments. It's inconclusive.


NT

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
The absolute manifold pressure sensor on my Astra F had three
connections, +5V supply, ground and analogue return. The
connector did not have gold-flashed pins which under the
bonnet of a car is a silly cost saving exercise. Ditto the
rad temp sensor.

Gold flashed connectors ain't that common on cars. Some other form of
decent plating, yes. Connectors usually packed with a special grease to
help prevent corrosion. Many modern connectors are also pretty splash
proof too - unlike once.

I suspect a lot of people are paying out large sums to have
circuit boards in cars replaced, when in many cases simply
pulling the connector off and replacing, wipes the surface
corrosion off the pins and cures the fault anyway.

Quite.

Most garage grease monkeys don't appreciate the difference
between something with a 12V supply and another sensor
with a +5 logic supply. Spraying WD40 all over the connector
pins is the sort of dumb thing they try.

Car electrics seem to be something the average mechanic or fitter has no
wish to learn about. And even some specialist auto electricians are little
more than bodgers.

All the backplane connectors in my computer, sitting in my nice
warm dry 'office' are gold-flashed.

Yehbut they can be dealing with high frequency very low current signals.
Not something you usually see from an engine etc sensor.

--
*WHY IS THERE AN EXPIRATION DATE ON SOUR CREAM?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 20/08/2016 00:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave W wrote:
Failing computer boards cost me £2000 in repairs on my last car
(Citroen). I've gone for a car made in a different country now, in the
hope that the boards won't be made in the same factory.

Do Citroen use their own?

Never ceases to amaze me - the cost of some of those spares. No way
can it cost much more than a laptop.

Neighbours Renault Megane needed a complete new instrument panel
when it went blank. £400 just for the part. It might have been
something simple like a diode or voltage regulator but no-one
has the time or skills to investigate.

Just the same with the PCB on my Viessmann boiler. Had a number of on
board fuses of the solder in type, one of which had blown due to water
getting on the spark generator. Nothing in the manual about checking or
replacing those fuses, and well beyond a service monkey. Who would simply
replace the board at fast cost. Instead of soldering in a new 10p fuse.

--
*The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Just the same with the PCB on my Viessmann boiler. Had a number of on
board fuses of the solder in type, one of which had blown due to water
getting on the spark generator. Nothing in the manual about checking
or replacing those fuses, and well beyond a service monkey. Who would
simply replace the board at fast cost. Instead of soldering in a new
10p fuse.


Possibly a time served Plumber. Good at joining pipes.

On 8/19/2016 5:57 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

So saying, the PCB in my Viessmann boiler is beautifully made. As well it
might be at a spare part price of 500 quid. ;-)



Hope it fairs better than my Baxi Barcelona .... gas maintenance have
changed 5 boards out in past 3 weeks ... even changed both boards at
same time on one visit.

rick wrote:



Hope it fairs better than my Baxi Barcelona .... gas maintenance have
changed 5 boards out in past 3 weeks ... even changed both boards at
same time on one visit.


ive had a Baxi Barcelona in a rented house for 13 years and only needed to
repair it once.
( christ what have said touches wood, lucky rabbits foot)
preventive maintenance, change spark electrode every year and check
combustion chamber seals.
"gas maintenance" are mostly plumbers who only seem to know how to change a
circuit board

-

rick wrote:
On 8/19/2016 5:57 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

So saying, the PCB in my Viessmann boiler is beautifully made. As well it
might be at a spare part price of 500 quid. ;-)



Hope it fairs better than my Baxi Barcelona .... gas maintenance have
changed 5 boards out in past 3 weeks ... even changed both boards at
same time on one visit.


Perhaps they need to find out what's *actually* wrong?

We had a similar (though not as extreme) problem with our boiler which
turned out to be due to a badly sited automatic bleed valve above the
boiler leaking water into the boiler. The "engineer" completely failed to
spot this.

Tim

--
Trolls AND TROLL FEEDERS all go in my kill file

On 19/08/16 17:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/08/16 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer
wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a
fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions -
yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.

Better built and better specced. Early car electronics were dire.


Yes. I had the misfortune to have a Volvo 480ES, which had a CEM
(Central Electronic Module), the equivalent of a convenience/body
control ECU in today's cars. A nightmare, madly built, unreliable. Mind,
that applied to the body and mechanics too, not just the electronics.

In article ,
Tim+ wrote:
We had a similar (though not as extreme) problem with our boiler which
turned out to be due to a badly sited automatic bleed valve above the
boiler leaking water into the boiler. The "engineer" completely failed
to spot this.


That was the problem with my Viessmann. A hose at the top of the boiler -
between the heat exchanger and copper pipework - split, and soaked the
spark unit and gas valve. But was pretty obvious. ;-)

The exploded view of the boiler in the installation booklet didn't show
this hose - just a solid pipe - so it was presumably a mod on later
boilers, perhaps to reduce noise.

I've just got rid of my '97 BMW and that never had a coolant system hose
replaced in its life, so it's possible to make such things last more than
the few years this one did. Or to have some form of shield to deflect
water away from electrical bits.

--
*If you lived in your car, you'd be home by now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Chris Bartram wrote:
On 19/08/16 17:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/08/16 16:58, DerbyBorn wrote:
Why is it that things like washing machines and boilers seem to suffer
wit
circuit board failures - yet they are relatively simple and are in a
fairly
stable environment. Cars. on the otherhand have very complex on-board
systems coping with high speed signals and widely varying conditions -
yet
they seem to be incredibly reliable.

Better built and better specced. Early car electronics were dire.


Yes. I had the misfortune to have a Volvo 480ES, which had a CEM
(Central Electronic Module), the equivalent of a convenience/body
control ECU in today's cars. A nightmare, madly built, unreliable. Mind,
that applied to the body and mechanics too, not just the electronics.

Pretty well the first EFI car in the UK was the Rover Vitesse. Nominally a
Lucas system, but based on Bosch and uses lots of Bosch parts. The ECU is
pure Lucas - and actually pretty reliable in terms of failing. The main
snag with the system was production variations. Even when new, some cars
performed very much better than others.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Hope it fairs better than my Baxi Barcelona .... gas maintenance have
changed 5 boards out in past 3 weeks ... even changed both boards at
same time on one visit.

We need "Boiler Technicians" Not "Plumbers" or "Gas Fitters". They need to
understand the control logic and the interlocks.

"rick" wrote in message
...
Hope it fairs better than my Baxi Barcelona .... gas maintenance have
changed 5 boards out in past 3 weeks ... even changed both boards at same
time on one visit.

They are reasonably easy to fault find, start up goes
flow sensor ok fan running ok spark ign on ok gas valve opens flame
detected ok: it working.

Lockouts, will not attempt to start
flow temp thermostat
fan thermostat
safety thermostat
condenser trap full


-

On 21/08/16 16:28, DerbyBorn wrote:

Hope it fairs better than my Baxi Barcelona .... gas maintenance have
changed 5 boards out in past 3 weeks ... even changed both boards at
same time on one visit.

We need "Boiler Technicians" Not "Plumbers" or "Gas Fitters". They need to
understand the control logic and the interlocks.

trouble is, after all the training they can earn more fixing something
more expensive


--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

"Mark" wrote in :


"rick" wrote in message
...
Hope it fairs better than my Baxi Barcelona .... gas maintenance
have changed 5 boards out in past 3 weeks ... even changed both
boards at same time on one visit.

They are reasonably easy to fault find, start up goes
flow sensor ok fan running ok spark ign on ok gas valve opens
flame detected ok: it working.

Lockouts, will not attempt to start
flow temp thermostat
fan thermostat
safety thermostat
condenser trap full


-




......but usually - It isn't working, I'll change the PCB!

On 21/08/2016 11:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim+ wrote:
We had a similar (though not as extreme) problem with our boiler which
turned out to be due to a badly sited automatic bleed valve above the
boiler leaking water into the boiler. The "engineer" completely failed
to spot this.


That was the problem with my Viessmann. A hose at the top of the boiler -
between the heat exchanger and copper pipework - split, and soaked the
spark unit and gas valve. But was pretty obvious. ;-)

The exploded view of the boiler in the installation booklet didn't show
this hose - just a solid pipe - so it was presumably a mod on later
boilers, perhaps to reduce noise.

I've just got rid of my '97 BMW and that never had a coolant system hose
replaced in its life, so it's possible to make such things last more than
the few years this one did. Or to have some form of shield to deflect
water away from electrical bits.

I got rid of my 1997/8 Astra F estate last year and it never let me down
after 13 years of motoring.

Apart from replacing both front wishbones when the rubber/metal
joints failed (design flaw) that was it. Nothing ever failed and
left me stranded. Had all its original hoses and drive belt for the
alternator, PS and air-con. The ford garage I bought it from in 2003
put new disks and pads on and new tyres all round. The rears still had
6 mm of tread when I sold it after 40,000 miles.

replying to DerbyBorn, john430 wrote:
automotive parts for circuit boards are of much higher quality than those used
in the washing machines etc. also most of the electrical designs used in home
appliances are really garbage designs as if they are made by amateurs whereas
those in cars are very good designs.

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/...s-1151358-.htm

In article s.com,
john430 m wrote:
replying to DerbyBorn, john430 wrote: automotive parts for circuit
boards are of much higher quality than those used in the washing
machines etc. also most of the electrical designs used in home
appliances are really garbage designs as if they are made by amateurs
whereas those in cars are very good designs.

Think what you actually mean is PCBs in cheap domestic products are likely
to be cheap too. Buy a quality make and you're more likely to get quality
everywhere.

Car stuff is made to a quality to survive the required time with minimal
failures within warranty. No different from domestic stuff. If it is
generally better quality, that's because a car is a far more hostile
environment than a house.

But to say all car PCBs are perfect is nonsense.

--
*I'm not being rude. You're just insignificant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"john430" m wrote in
message roups.com...
replying to DerbyBorn, john430 wrote:
automotive parts for circuit boards are of much higher quality than those
used
in the washing machines etc. also most of the electrical designs used in
home
appliances are really garbage designs as if they are made by amateurs

whereas
those in cars are very good designs.


You only have to look online to see the number of relativity young cars
being sold for peanuts because of ECU/electronic problems that result in a
nun runner or MOT failure

-