I went to see a performance of West Side Story at Kilworth House Theatre
yesterday and found myself (as usual) looking at the lighting rigs. Later
as the show started I was also reflecting on the fantastic sound quality.

How on earth can a little pea sized microphone in the hair line of the case
give such good sound - and why are hand mics used on TV so big?

The use of LED floodlights was effective, but what intrigues me are the
large spots that are remotely (programmed?) steered, colour changed, beam
shaped, etc.

It has come a long way since I used a Strand Electric 8 channel lighting
board 50 years ago.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 10:58:26 +0000, DerbyBorn wrote:

How on earth can a little pea sized microphone in the hair line of the
case give such good sound

They're very directional, though, and have to be set up carefully.

and why are hand mics used on TV so big?

Ease of use.

The use of LED floodlights was effective, but what intrigues me are the
large spots that are remotely (programmed?) steered, colour changed,
beam shaped, etc.

DMX - or DMX512 - is the default standard.

In article 2, DerbyBorn
wrote:
I went to see a performance of West Side Story at Kilworth House Theatre
yesterday and found myself (as usual) looking at the lighting rigs. Later
as the show started I was also reflecting on the fantastic sound quality.

How on earth can a little pea sized microphone in the hair line of the
case give such good sound - and why are hand mics used on TV so big?

The hand mics also hold the transmitter and battery. But, I suspect that
performers like something they can hold properly.

The use of LED floodlights was effective, but what intrigues me are the
large spots that are remotely (programmed?) steered, colour changed, beam
shaped, etc.

Intellegent fixtures

It has come a long way since I used a Strand Electric 8 channel lighting
board 50 years ago.

If you fancy a trip to London on Wednesday or Thursday, there a exhibition
of theatre equipment at Alexandra Palace. (ABBT Theatre Show) Register
beforehand and it's free.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article 2,
DerbyBorn wrote:
How on earth can a little pea sized microphone in the hair line of the
case give such good sound - and why are hand mics used on TV so big?


A microphone in the hair looks too obtrusive for close ups on TV.

Also, if you're talking about a pop band on TV, the sound levels fed back
to on stage (and likely the general sound levels on stage) are of a
magnitude greater than in a musical in a theatre. Requiring microphones
which can cope with that - which ain't small omnis.

Also, a mic in the hairline doesn't sound anywhere as good as a decent
hand mic. But simply the best compromise in a theatre for singing and
dancing etc at the same time.

--
*America is so advanced that even the chairs are electric.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article 2,
DerbyBorn wrote:
How on earth can a little pea sized microphone in the hair line of the
case give such good sound - and why are hand mics used on TV so big?


A microphone in the hair looks too obtrusive for close ups on TV.

Also, if you're talking about a pop band on TV, the sound levels fed back
to on stage (and likely the general sound levels on stage) are of a
magnitude greater than in a musical in a theatre. Requiring microphones
which can cope with that - which ain't small omnis.

Also, a mic in the hairline doesn't sound anywhere as good as a decent
hand mic. But simply the best compromise in a theatre for singing and
dancing etc at the same time.

There's now a tendency to use very small microphones which are hung from
the top of the ear. These can get much nearer the mouth.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
charles wrote:
A microphone in the hair looks too obtrusive for close ups on TV.

Also, if you're talking about a pop band on TV, the sound levels fed back
to on stage (and likely the general sound levels on stage) are of a
magnitude greater than in a musical in a theatre. Requiring microphones
which can cope with that - which ain't small omnis.

Also, a mic in the hairline doesn't sound anywhere as good as a decent
hand mic. But simply the best compromise in a theatre for singing and
dancing etc at the same time.

There's now a tendency to use very small microphones which are hung from
the top of the ear. These can get much nearer the mouth.

But even more unsightly for TV. And fine for just a performer of some sort
- but a musical does try to be true theatre rather than just a pop record.

--
*It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , charles
wrote:
A microphone in the hair looks too obtrusive for close ups on TV.

Also, if you're talking about a pop band on TV, the sound levels fed
back to on stage (and likely the general sound levels on stage) are
of a magnitude greater than in a musical in a theatre. Requiring
microphones which can cope with that - which ain't small omnis.

Also, a mic in the hairline doesn't sound anywhere as good as a
decent hand mic. But simply the best compromise in a theatre for
singing and dancing etc at the same time.

There's now a tendency to use very small microphones which are hung
from the top of the ear. These can get much nearer the mouth.

But even more unsightly for TV. And fine for just a performer of some
sort - but a musical does try to be true theatre rather than just a pop
record.

However, it's difficult to get singers who can sing over the band - which
why mikes are often needed.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
charles wrote:
But even more unsightly for TV. And fine for just a performer of some
sort - but a musical does try to be true theatre rather than just a pop
record.

However, it's difficult to get singers who can sing over the band - which
why mikes are often needed.

Really? Makes me wonder about G&S etc ever got popular.

--
*That's it! I‘m calling grandma!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , charles
wrote:
But even more unsightly for TV. And fine for just a performer of some
sort - but a musical does try to be true theatre rather than just a
pop record.

However, it's difficult to get singers who can sing over the band -
which why mikes are often needed.

Really? Makes me wonder about G&S etc ever got popular.

1. People knew how to sing

2. Bands weren't amplified

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Sunday, 19 June 2016 11:58:30 UTC+1, DerbyBorn wrote:
I went to see a performance of West Side Story at Kilworth House Theatre
yesterday and found myself (as usual) looking at the lighting rigs. Later
as the show started I was also reflecting on the fantastic sound quality.

How on earth can a little pea sized microphone in the hair line of the case
give such good sound - and why are hand mics used on TV so big?

The use of LED floodlights was effective, but what intrigues me are the
large spots that are remotely (programmed?) steered, colour changed, beam
shaped, etc.

It has come a long way since I used a Strand Electric 8 channel lighting
board 50 years ago.

I presume the individual microphones are faded up and down to a preset cue in a similar manner to the lighting cues.

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , charles
wrote:
But even more unsightly for TV. And fine for just a performer of some
sort - but a musical does try to be true theatre rather than just a
pop record.

However, it's difficult to get singers who can sing over the band -
which why mikes are often needed.

Really? Makes me wonder about G&S etc ever got popular.

1. People knew how to sing

2. Bands weren't amplified

Brass can make quite a racket without amps.

It's more down to arrangements. Without vocal amplification, the band
wouldn't play full belt when there was solo singing.

--
*Broken pencils are pointless.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
DerbyBorn wrote:
On Sunday, 19 June 2016 11:58:30 UTC+1, DerbyBorn wrote:
I went to see a performance of West Side Story at Kilworth House
Theatre yesterday and found myself (as usual) looking at the lighting
rigs. Later as the show started I was also reflecting on the
fantastic sound quality.

How on earth can a little pea sized microphone in the hair line of the
case give such good sound - and why are hand mics used on TV so big?

The use of LED floodlights was effective, but what intrigues me are
the large spots that are remotely (programmed?) steered, colour
changed, beam shaped, etc.

It has come a long way since I used a Strand Electric 8 channel
lighting board 50 years ago.

I presume the individual microphones are faded up and down to a preset
cue in a similar manner to the lighting cues.

That would be very difficult to do with a live performance. Far easier for
the sound mixer to just follow a score - or more likely a lead sheet.

If you were working to a pre-record backing track you could easily arrange
that to control which vocal mic is faded up and the lighting cues too.

--
*There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
charles wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , charles
wrote:
But even more unsightly for TV. And fine for just a performer of
some
sort - but a musical does try to be true theatre rather than just a
pop record.

However, it's difficult to get singers who can sing over the band -
which why mikes are often needed.

Really? Makes me wonder about G&S etc ever got popular.

1. People knew how to sing

2. Bands weren't amplified

Brass can make quite a racket without amps.

It's more down to arrangements. Without vocal amplification, the band
wouldn't play full belt when there was solo singing.

That's ok Dave, Josef Locke (Irish Tenor) rarely used a mic.
Maybe you're a tad set in your ways.
Maybe think "leave"?
Give it some thought. Forget left and right crap. Think English, who tf is
european amongst us?
Not I, lets get the hell out of there.

for the sound mixer to just follow a score - or more likely a lead
sheet.

If you were working to a pre-record backing track you could easily
arrange that to control which vocal mic is faded up and the lighting
cues too.


The show had a live band. Large cast with lots of coming and going on and
off the stage. It went perfectly.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:21:40 -0700 (PDT), DerbyBorn wrote:

I presume the individual microphones are faded up and down to a preset
cue in a similar manner to the lighting cues.

What do you mean by "preset cue"?

An automated system with everything preset into a lot of memory
positions and sequentially moved from one memory to the next under
the control of a timeline or maybe a "take" button.

Or a marked up script that the sound mixer manually follows.

The former can't cope with adlibs or performance changes, the latter
can.

These days the sound desk will almost have confuration/setup memories
but I wouldn't expect them to be used at anything below scene level.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 15:53:33 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Also, a mic in the hairline doesn't sound anywhere as good as a
decent
hand mic. But simply the best compromise in a theatre for singing
and
dancing etc at the same time.

But is far better and much more consistent than the same mic on the
cozzy.

There's now a tendency to use very small microphones which are
hung
from the top of the ear. These can get much nearer the mouth.

But even more unsightly for TV.

Yep, nasty wart on the cheek.

The "hairline technique" also works with the mic just above an ear
(beware of specticals) and is far less noticeable and depening on
hair style possibly not visible at all.

The big snag with hairline mics is the time it takes to stick 'em on
and run the cable so it doesn't come unstuck...

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
There's now a tendency to use very small microphones which are
hung
from the top of the ear. These can get much nearer the mouth.

But even more unsightly for TV.

Yep, nasty wart on the cheek.

The "hairline technique" also works with the mic just above an ear
(beware of specticals) and is far less noticeable and depening on
hair style possibly not visible at all.

The big snag with hairline mics is the time it takes to stick 'em on
and run the cable so it doesn't come unstuck...

Do hairline and cheek mikes give better results than chest mikes of the sort
that are used on chat shows? Mikes work on clothing (providing you take care
to avoid clothing rustle) can be hidden fairly well and give good results
certainly for speaking on chat shows. And less unsightly than a cheek wart
mike!

Do hairline and cheek mikes give better results than chest mikes of
the sort that are used on chat shows? Mikes work on clothing
(providing you take care to avoid clothing rustle) can be hidden
fairly well and give good results certainly for speaking on chat
shows. And less unsightly than a cheek wart mike!



Amazing how little rustle ever comes across. I recall my old tape recorder
- just touching the mic drowned out any voice recording.

In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:

for the sound mixer to just follow a score - or more likely a lead
sheet.

If you were working to a pre-record backing track you could easily
arrange that to control which vocal mic is faded up and the lighting
cues too.


The show had a live band. Large cast with lots of coming and going on
and off the stage. It went perfectly.

Excellent. Just pointing out you don't need full computer control to do
this sort of thing. Humans are still capable.

--
*My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
bm wrote:
Brass can make quite a racket without amps.

It's more down to arrangements. Without vocal amplification, the band
wouldn't play full belt when there was solo singing.

That's ok Dave, Josef Locke (Irish Tenor) rarely used a mic.

Thanks for telling me that. I assume since you singled him out you think
all other singers use mics?

Maybe you're a tad set in your ways.
Maybe think "leave"? Give it some
thought. Forget left and right crap. Think English, who tf is european
amongst us? Not I, lets get the hell out of there.

It's odd that even your very most 'favourite' person on here - Wodney -
occasionally sticks to the subject.

--
*Preserve wildlife - Go pickle a squirrel*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
NY wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
There's now a tendency to use very small microphones which are
hung
from the top of the ear. These can get much nearer the mouth.

But even more unsightly for TV.

Yep, nasty wart on the cheek.

The "hairline technique" also works with the mic just above an ear
(beware of specticals) and is far less noticeable and depening on
hair style possibly not visible at all.

The big snag with hairline mics is the time it takes to stick 'em on
and run the cable so it doesn't come unstuck...

Do hairline and cheek mikes give better results than chest mikes of the
sort that are used on chat shows? Mikes work on clothing (providing you
take care to avoid clothing rustle) can be hidden fairly well and give
good results certainly for speaking on chat shows. And less unsightly
than a cheek wart mike!

You can draw your own conclusions easily. Stick a finger in one ear and
move the other to the various places on your partner while they talk.
Where do you find the most natural sounding position?

It won't be on the chest, nice though that might be. ;-)

TV uses personal mics where they are because of looks - not performance.

--
*I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway through.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:


Do hairline and cheek mikes give better results than chest mikes of
the sort that are used on chat shows? Mikes work on clothing
(providing you take care to avoid clothing rustle) can be hidden
fairly well and give good results certainly for speaking on chat
shows. And less unsightly than a cheek wart mike!



Amazing how little rustle ever comes across. I recall my old tape
recorder - just touching the mic drowned out any voice recording.

You might be surprised to hear just how much rustle etc there is before
post production. Noise gates etc are used to lower the noise level. And
it's also why they don't generally 'brighten' personal mics on drama
enough - that brings up the generally HF sounds of rustle.

After complains about inaudiblity on Happy Valley recently, they did
re-mix later episodes. And up came the rustle.

--
*I yell because I care

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
bm wrote:
Brass can make quite a racket without amps.

It's more down to arrangements. Without vocal amplification, the band
wouldn't play full belt when there was solo singing.

That's ok Dave, Josef Locke (Irish Tenor) rarely used a mic.

Thanks for telling me that. I assume since you singled him out you think
all other singers use mics?

Maybe you're a tad set in your ways.
Maybe think "leave"? Give it some
thought. Forget left and right crap. Think English, who tf is european
amongst us? Not I, lets get the hell out of there.

It's odd that even your very most 'favourite' person on here - Wodney -
occasionally sticks to the subject.

C'mon Dave, you don't miss an opportunity to bang on and on about "remain"

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:


Do hairline and cheek mikes give better results than chest mikes of
the sort that are used on chat shows? Mikes work on clothing
(providing you take care to avoid clothing rustle) can be hidden
fairly well and give good results certainly for speaking on chat
shows. And less unsightly than a cheek wart mike!



Amazing how little rustle ever comes across. I recall my old tape
recorder - just touching the mic drowned out any voice recording.

You might be surprised to hear just how much rustle etc there is before
post production. Noise gates etc are used to lower the noise level. And
it's also why they don't generally 'brighten' personal mics on drama
enough - that brings up the generally HF sounds of rustle.

After complains about inaudiblity on Happy Valley recently, they did
re-mix later episodes. And up came the rustle.

Thanks for that, I did wonder why the audio was so poor so often now.

You do have your uses at times.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:


Do hairline and cheek mikes give better results than chest mikes of
the sort that are used on chat shows? Mikes work on clothing
(providing you take care to avoid clothing rustle) can be hidden
fairly well and give good results certainly for speaking on chat
shows. And less unsightly than a cheek wart mike!



Amazing how little rustle ever comes across. I recall my old tape
recorder - just touching the mic drowned out any voice recording.

You might be surprised to hear just how much rustle etc there is before
post production. Noise gates etc are used to lower the noise level. And
it's also why they don't generally 'brighten' personal mics on drama
enough - that brings up the generally HF sounds of rustle.

After complains about inaudiblity on Happy Valley recently, they did
re-mix later episodes. And up came the rustle.

Thanks for that, I did wonder why the audio was so poor so often now.

I'll give you another one. In the now freelance world - where there is no
job security - the sound guys are terrified of saying a performance or
whatever simply isn't audible. Rock the boat and no more work.

--
*It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:


Do hairline and cheek mikes give better results than chest mikes of
the sort that are used on chat shows? Mikes work on clothing
(providing you take care to avoid clothing rustle) can be hidden
fairly well and give good results certainly for speaking on chat
shows. And less unsightly than a cheek wart mike!



Amazing how little rustle ever comes across. I recall my old tape
recorder - just touching the mic drowned out any voice recording.

You might be surprised to hear just how much rustle etc there is before
post production. Noise gates etc are used to lower the noise level. And
it's also why they don't generally 'brighten' personal mics on drama
enough - that brings up the generally HF sounds of rustle.

After complains about inaudiblity on Happy Valley recently, they did
re-mix later episodes. And up came the rustle.

Thanks for that, I did wonder why the audio was so poor so often now.

I'll give you another one. In the now freelance world - where there is no
job security - the sound guys are terrified of saying a performance or
whatever simply isn't audible. Rock the boat and no more work.

Why tf you give a serious response to the prick is beyond me.
C'mon Dave, you're better than that.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:


Do hairline and cheek mikes give better results than chest mikes of
the sort that are used on chat shows? Mikes work on clothing
(providing you take care to avoid clothing rustle) can be hidden
fairly well and give good results certainly for speaking on chat
shows. And less unsightly than a cheek wart mike!



Amazing how little rustle ever comes across. I recall my old tape
recorder - just touching the mic drowned out any voice recording.

You might be surprised to hear just how much rustle etc there is before
post production. Noise gates etc are used to lower the noise level. And
it's also why they don't generally 'brighten' personal mics on drama
enough - that brings up the generally HF sounds of rustle.

After complains about inaudiblity on Happy Valley recently, they did
re-mix later episodes. And up came the rustle.

Thanks for that, I did wonder why the audio was so poor so often now.

I'll give you another one. In the now freelance world - where there is no
job security - the sound guys are terrified of saying a performance or
whatever simply isn't audible. Rock the boat and no more work.

That one was always obvious.

On Sunday, June 19, 2016 at 11:58:30 AM UTC+1, DerbyBorn wrote:
I went to see a performance of West Side Story at Kilworth House Theatre
yesterday and found myself (as usual) looking at the lighting rigs. Later
as the show started I was also reflecting on the fantastic sound quality.

How on earth can a little pea sized microphone in the hair line of the case
give such good sound - and why are hand mics used on TV so big?

The use of LED floodlights was effective, but what intrigues me are the
large spots that are remotely (programmed?) steered, colour changed, beam
shaped, etc.

It has come a long way since I used a Strand Electric 8 channel lighting
board 50 years ago.

Just miss out the Euro part of the diary ;-) massive production

http://m-m-pr.com/index.php/eurovisi...e-real-april-4

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:15:07 +0100, NY wrote:

There's now a tendency to use very small microphones which are
hung from the top of the ear. These can get much nearer the
mouth.

But even more unsightly for TV.

Yep, nasty wart on the cheek.

The "hairline technique" also works with the mic just above an ear
(beware of specticals) and is far less noticeable and depening on
hair style possibly not visible at all.

The big snag with hairline mics is the time it takes to stick 'em
on
and run the cable so it doesn't come unstuck...

Do hairline and cheek mikes give better results than chest mikes of the
sort that are used on chat shows?

Hairline certianly does. The cheek ones are a bit variable, sensitive
to distance from mouth and cheek and to my ears a bit too "close".
The problems with mics clipped to onto the chest area are getting to
much sound of the chest resonace (males in particular), rustles from
the clothing, muffled if hidden, and as the person turns their head
the quality changing, they are also too close.

Clipped on mics are "OK" for some value of "OK. Do a comparison
between a clip-on and even a 416 in boom at 3' and the boom will
produces a nice, natural, open, clear, sound.

--
Cheers
Dave.