Dave Liquorice wrote:
Hands up those that have had the brakes on a modern car fade? I have
Ford Monedo, ventilated discs on the front. But that was after a very
"spirted" 1,100' descent in about 5 miles from Hartside Top to
Melmerby. A very nice road to "drive", with sharp 2nd gear bends,
straights, sweeping bends and sections where you can see what is (or
isn't) coming as you approach a bend.

It's bit unnerving approaching a 2nd gear bend at 60 mph, hit the
brakes, and something, followed rapidly by nothing, happens. Pressing
the pedal harder makes things worse. Once in that state it wouldn't
take much braking to fade them out again. The brakes didn't reliably
come back until I'd driven a mile or so without using them.

BTDTGTTS - on the Cat & Fiddle pass in Cheshire, Golf GTI Mk. 1.

Not exactly "modern", though.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

newshound wrote:
On 18/07/2015 14:28, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
"kshy" wrote in message
...


"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 19:38:26 +0100, David Lang wrote:

Looking to replace the handy van and I notice that modern vans have a
service interval of 22,500 miles. Which is very impressive.

But it states "22,500 miles or two years, which ever comes first".

But surely the only thing that matters is the mileage, not the time
taken to do it?

Nope. Lets say the van's only used very occasionally, for whatever
reason. It's 10 years old, and still only has 20k on it. By your logic,
it would never ever have seen the inside of a workshop in all that
time.

Apart from anything else, brake fluid should be replaced at two year
intervals.

My Hyundai Getz says nothing like that, just INSPECT the brake fluid
every
2 years.

I've lost count of the cars that I've owned over the past 44 years.
I have never ever changed the brake fluid on any of them, and guess
what? I
have never had brake failure.


You have *never* had a cylinder seized owing to corrosion? I find that
hard to believe.


I've never had a cylinder corrode to any extent requiring replacement.
However worn seal replacement has been a common problem after a decade
or two.

Nightjar.me.uk" "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Come to think of it tho, with modern computer controlled
cars, it makes a lot more sense for the computer to keep
track of the number of starts and how warmed up the
engine got and tell you when to change the oil rather
than to just use a very crude do it every 2 years with
the cars that don’t make the miles required in 2 years.

It is a long time since I had a vehicle with a fixed service interval.
They all tell me when they think a service is due, based upon the type of
driving done.

Mine doesn’t, admittedly its just coming up to 10 years old, bought new.

On Sat, 18 Jul 2015 22:30:57 +0100, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:

Come to think of it tho, with modern computer controlled cars, it makes
a lot more sense for the computer to keep track of the number of starts
and how warmed up the engine got and tell you when to change the oil
rather than to just use a very crude do it every 2 years with the cars
that dont make the miles required in 2 years.

It is a long time since I had a vehicle with a fixed service interval.
They all tell me when they think a service is due, based upon the type
of driving done.

Back in the early-mid '90s, I had a 3-series as a co.car. It told me when
the service was due, based on mileage/use/etc.

Then, two weeks after it'd been serviced, it told me a service (brake
fluid/coolant change) was due because it was 24months from the PDI...

On Sat, 18 Jul 2015 17:52:20 +0000 (UTC), Adrian
wrote:


Because it's ethylene-glycol based.

I have distant memories of issues between the fluid used in French cars
and the brake piston seals on others. Vegetable/mineral origins etc.

Hydraulic Citroens used LHM - bright green - which is mineral based and
non-hygroscopic. But it isn't compatible with the seals used in DOT-based
systems.


Was that used by BMC/British Leyland in the hydrolastic suspension as
well? I recall seeing the surprised look on someone in a breakers
yard* when they cut a pipe or something and ended up looking like the
incredible Hulk, in truth only his colour had changed and
unfortunately it did nothing to enable him to talk.
* Breakers yard was probably too posh a description by todays
standards, Muddy field full of rusty and broken vehicles dripping
fluids and other substances into the ground and near a watercourse.
Even though in a town it is undeveloped as the soil will have to be
removed. The owner did have one interesting vehicle he kept in a tin
shed but would never let on how he got hold of a 1950's ZIL

G.Harman

In message , Adrian
writes
On Sat, 18 Jul 2015 17:49:34 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Tim Lamb
writes
Apart from anything else, brake fluid should be replaced at two year
intervals.

Why is brake fluid hygroscopic?

Because it's ethylene-glycol based.

I have distant memories of issues between the fluid used in French cars
and the brake piston seals on others. Vegetable/mineral origins etc.

Hydraulic Citroens used LHM - bright green - which is mineral based and
non-hygroscopic. But it isn't compatible with the seals used in DOT-based
systems.

Also used on David Brown/Case tractors circa 1980. Strong handbook
warnings about not using other brake fluids.

--
Tim Lamb

On 18/07/2015 23:44, Capitol wrote:
newshound wrote:
On 18/07/2015 14:28, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
"kshy" wrote in message
...


"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 19:38:26 +0100, David Lang wrote:

Looking to replace the handy van and I notice that modern vans have a
service interval of 22,500 miles. Which is very impressive.

But it states "22,500 miles or two years, which ever comes first".

But surely the only thing that matters is the mileage, not the time
taken to do it?

Nope. Lets say the van's only used very occasionally, for whatever
reason. It's 10 years old, and still only has 20k on it. By your
logic,
it would never ever have seen the inside of a workshop in all that
time.

Apart from anything else, brake fluid should be replaced at two year
intervals.

My Hyundai Getz says nothing like that, just INSPECT the brake fluid
every
2 years.

I've lost count of the cars that I've owned over the past 44 years.
I have never ever changed the brake fluid on any of them, and guess
what? I
have never had brake failure.


You have *never* had a cylinder seized owing to corrosion? I find that
hard to believe.


I've never had a cylinder corrode to any extent requiring
replacement. However worn seal replacement has been a common problem
after a decade or two.

I've replaced 1/2 dozen or more in my time, but none in the past 15 or
so years. Hence my question about brake fluid, perhaps seals and other
materials have improved as well?

In article , Nightjar
writes
On 18/07/2015 01:27, Rod Speed wrote:
...
Come to think of it tho, with modern computer controlled
cars, it makes a lot more sense for the computer to keep
track of the number of starts and how warmed up the
engine got and tell you when to change the oil rather
than to just use a very crude do it every 2 years with
the cars that dont make the miles required in 2 years.

It is a long time since I had a vehicle with a fixed service interval.
They all tell me when they think a service is due, based upon the type
of driving done.

Really?
I have 3 vehicles 08,59,63 and all have a specified maximum[1] service
interval as well as mileage based.
[1] I assume you meant max rather than fixed.
--
bert

In article , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , Adrian
writes
On Sat, 18 Jul 2015 17:49:34 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , Tim Lamb
writes
Apart from anything else, brake fluid should be replaced at two year
intervals.

Why is brake fluid hygroscopic?

Because it's ethylene-glycol based.

I have distant memories of issues between the fluid used in French cars
and the brake piston seals on others. Vegetable/mineral origins etc.

Hydraulic Citroens used LHM - bright green - which is mineral based and
non-hygroscopic. But it isn't compatible with the seals used in DOT-based
systems.

Also used on David Brown/Case tractors circa 1980. Strong handbook
warnings about not using other brake fluids.

Many years ago there were two systems Lockheed and Girling which used
incompatible fluids mineral and veg based.
--
bert

In article , Mr Pounder Esquire
writes

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Mr Pounder Esquire
writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
I've lost count of the cars that I've owned over the past 44 years. I
have never ever changed the brake fluid on any of them, and guess what?
I have never had brake failure.

Obviously those who owned the car before you looked after their brakes.

Present car is now 10 years old, it has never had the fluid changed. We
bought it 8 years ago.
I owned taxis for too many years, the fluid was never changed. These
vehicles were doing around 1000 miles per week.

It's called preventative maintenance.

I know what it is called.




I would say that 19 years of owning taxis and never changing the fluid
confirms my view that changing the fluid is a load of ********.
I'd say that 44 years of driving and never changing the fluid confirms my
view that changing the fluid is a load of ********.
I will say again that I have never had brake failure.






http://www.crashforensics.com/brakefailure.cfm

Fluid Fade
Cars and trucks from Class 1 to Class 6 commonly use a hydraulic brake
systems. A hydraulic brake system works by using a non compressible
fluid (brake fluid) to transmit the force of a driver pushing on the
brake pedal to the brake linings. Air and vaporized fluid are
compressible and, if allowed into a hydraulic brake system, the brake
pedal will feel spongy and the force transmitted to the lining will be
reduced. Just like water, brake fluid can boil and change to a vapour if
it gets hot enough. Fluid Fade is the overheating of brake fluid causing
it to vaporize. The vaporized fluid will have to be compressed before
the system can transmit pedal force to the lining. In most cases, there
will be insufficient pedal travel to do both.

The brake fluid used in cars and trucks typically has a boiling point of
around 401degrees at sea level. Brake fluid is also hygroscopic, a
characteristic which allows it to absorb moisture. Over time, brake
fluid will become contaminated with moisture. As this happens, the
boiling point of the brake fluid will be lowered, since the boiling
point of water at sea level is only 212 degrees. Wet brake fluid has
only a 3.5% water content and the wet boiling point of brake fluid drops
to 284 degrees. I have tested the boiling point of brake fluid many
times and have tested samples that boiled at temperatures as low as 260
degrees. For this reason, brake fluid maintenance recommendations are
that it should be flushed about every 4 years.

The boiling point of a fluid is also reduced as altitude is increased.
For example, the boiling point of water is reduced by approximately 1%
for every 1,000 feet above sea level. So driving mountain passes, which
often exceed 11,000 feet, driving Pikes Peak highway that tops out at
14,110 feet, or Mount Evans Road, that tops out at 14,130 feet can
easily cause brake fade, by producing a significant drop in the brake
fluid boiling point. These locations also put extreme demands on a brake
system that cause brakes to get hot and are the most common places brake
fade is experienced.
--
bert

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Mr Pounder Esquire
writes

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Mr Pounder Esquire
writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
I've lost count of the cars that I've owned over the past 44 years. I
have never ever changed the brake fluid on any of them, and guess
what?
I have never had brake failure.

Obviously those who owned the car before you looked after their
brakes.

Present car is now 10 years old, it has never had the fluid changed. We
bought it 8 years ago.
I owned taxis for too many years, the fluid was never changed. These
vehicles were doing around 1000 miles per week.

It's called preventative maintenance.

I know what it is called.




I would say that 19 years of owning taxis and never changing the fluid
confirms my view that changing the fluid is a load of ********.
I'd say that 44 years of driving and never changing the fluid confirms my
view that changing the fluid is a load of ********.
I will say again that I have never had brake failure.


http://www.crashforensics.com/brakefailure.cfm


Snipped politely.

I would say that 19 years of owning taxis and never changing the fluid
confirms my view that changing the fluid is a load of ********.
I'd say that 44 years of driving and never changing the fluid confirms my
view that changing the fluid is a load of ********.
I will say again that I have never had brake failure.

On 19/07/2015 19:36, bert wrote:
In article , Nightjar
writes
On 18/07/2015 01:27, Rod Speed wrote:
...
Come to think of it tho, with modern computer controlled
cars, it makes a lot more sense for the computer to keep
track of the number of starts and how warmed up the
engine got and tell you when to change the oil rather
than to just use a very crude do it every 2 years with
the cars that dont make the miles required in 2 years.

It is a long time since I had a vehicle with a fixed service interval.
They all tell me when they think a service is due, based upon the type
of driving done.

Really?
I have 3 vehicles 08,59,63 and all have a specified maximum[1] service
interval as well as mileage based.
[1] I assume you meant max rather than fixed.

You assume wrong. I meant that, although the car has a notional mileage
service interval, it is not fixed. Instead the car analyses the use the
car gets and warns when a service is required and which type. For
example, one car was nominally due a service at 10,000 miles from new.
However, its first 10,000 miles was largely done on long motorway runs
across Europe and the car did not decide it needed a service until
nearly 14,000 miles were on the clock.

--
Colin Bignell

On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:22:44 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

I've never had a cylinder corrode to any extent requiring
replacement. However worn seal replacement has been a common problem
after a decade or two.

I've replaced 1/2 dozen or more in my time, but none in the past 15 or
so years. Hence my question about brake fluid, perhaps seals and other
materials have improved as well?

The problem is that seals - no matter how good - don't like moving across
bores that're roughened by rust because of the moisture in the fluid.

Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:

sigh The brakes did not fail .............................. ffs!
Did you actually read my postings?

Yes and it just reinforces why I tend to skip straight over them. I've
seen brighter glow-worms.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:22:44 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

I've never had a cylinder corrode to any extent requiring
replacement. However worn seal replacement has been a common problem
after a decade or two.

I've replaced 1/2 dozen or more in my time, but none in the past 15 or
so years. Hence my question about brake fluid, perhaps seals and other
materials have improved as well?

The problem is that seals - no matter how good - don't like moving across
bores that're roughened by rust because of the moisture in the fluid.

But its perfectly possible to have bores that dont rust.

In message , kshy
writes


"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:22:44 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

I've never had a cylinder corrode to any extent requiring
replacement. However worn seal replacement has been a common problem
after a decade or two.

I've replaced 1/2 dozen or more in my time, but none in the past 15 or
so years. Hence my question about brake fluid, perhaps seals and other
materials have improved as well?

The problem is that seals - no matter how good - don't like moving across
bores that're roughened by rust because of the moisture in the fluid.

But its perfectly possible to have bores that dont rust.

I think the Girling cylinders I struggled with on early minis were some
sort of alloy. White corrosion rather than rust.

For such a vital component, improvements seem sadly lacking.

--
Tim Lamb

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , kshy writes


"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:22:44 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

I've never had a cylinder corrode to any extent requiring
replacement. However worn seal replacement has been a common problem
after a decade or two.

I've replaced 1/2 dozen or more in my time, but none in the past 15 or
so years. Hence my question about brake fluid, perhaps seals and other
materials have improved as well?

The problem is that seals - no matter how good - don't like moving
across
bores that're roughened by rust because of the moisture in the fluid.

But its perfectly possible to have bores that dont rust.

I think the Girling cylinders I struggled with on early minis were some
sort of alloy. White corrosion rather than rust.

Yeah, bet that's the reason.

For such a vital component, improvements seem sadly lacking.

Dunno, whoever it was that said that they had had to replace
heaps at one time and none in the last few decades shows
that dramatic improvements have been made.

Nightjar cpb@ wrote:
On 19/07/2015 19:36, bert wrote:
In article , Nightjar
writes
On 18/07/2015 01:27, Rod Speed wrote:
...
Come to think of it tho, with modern computer controlled
cars, it makes a lot more sense for the computer to keep
track of the number of starts and how warmed up the
engine got and tell you when to change the oil rather
than to just use a very crude do it every 2 years with
the cars that dont make the miles required in 2 years.

It is a long time since I had a vehicle with a fixed service interval.
They all tell me when they think a service is due, based upon the type
of driving done.

Really?
I have 3 vehicles 08,59,63 and all have a specified maximum[1] service
interval as well as mileage based.
[1] I assume you meant max rather than fixed.

You assume wrong. I meant that, although the car has a notional mileage
service interval, it is not fixed. Instead the car analyses the use the
car gets and warns when a service is required and which type. For
example, one car was nominally due a service at 10,000 miles from new.
However, its first 10,000 miles was largely done on long motorway runs
across Europe and the car did not decide it needed a service until
nearly 14,000 miles were on the clock.


Nominal service intervals are a bit of a farce. I can think of one
example where it is 3K miles in the US and 10K miles in Europe for the
same car. I belong to the school of thought which uses a 6k mile oil
change and only uses 20/50 oil. Seems to work for the first 180K miles.
One of my relatives used sae5 oil and 1K service intervals, he achieved
150K miles in a 1950s Ford popular van without an engine change doing
only short journeys.

On 20/07/15 08:56, kshy wrote:


"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , kshy
writes


"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:22:44 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

I've never had a cylinder corrode to any extent requiring
replacement. However worn seal replacement has been a common problem
after a decade or two.

I've replaced 1/2 dozen or more in my time, but none in the past 15 or
so years. Hence my question about brake fluid, perhaps seals and
other
materials have improved as well?

The problem is that seals - no matter how good - don't like moving
across
bores that're roughened by rust because of the moisture in the fluid.

But its perfectly possible to have bores that dont rust.

I think the Girling cylinders I struggled with on early minis were
some sort of alloy. White corrosion rather than rust.

Yeah, bet that's the reason.

For such a vital component, improvements seem sadly lacking.

Dunno, whoever it was that said that they had had to replace
heaps at one time and none in the last few decades shows
that dramatic improvements have been made.

really materials have just got better: old hydraulic fluid absorbed
water and it collected in wheel cylinders and corroded them, seals went
and that was that..

Its unusual today to get that sort of failure.




--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
Nightjar cpb@ wrote:
On 19/07/2015 19:36, bert wrote:
In article , Nightjar
writes
On 18/07/2015 01:27, Rod Speed wrote:
...
Come to think of it tho, with modern computer controlled
cars, it makes a lot more sense for the computer to keep
track of the number of starts and how warmed up the
engine got and tell you when to change the oil rather
than to just use a very crude do it every 2 years with
the cars that dont make the miles required in 2 years.

It is a long time since I had a vehicle with a fixed service interval.
They all tell me when they think a service is due, based upon the type
of driving done.

Really?
I have 3 vehicles 08,59,63 and all have a specified maximum[1] service
interval as well as mileage based.
[1] I assume you meant max rather than fixed.

You assume wrong. I meant that, although the car has a notional mileage
service interval, it is not fixed. Instead the car analyses the use the
car gets and warns when a service is required and which type. For
example, one car was nominally due a service at 10,000 miles from new.
However, its first 10,000 miles was largely done on long motorway runs
across Europe and the car did not decide it needed a service until
nearly 14,000 miles were on the clock.


Nominal service intervals are a bit of a farce. I can think of one example
where it is 3K miles in the US and 10K miles in Europe for the same car. I
belong to the school of thought which uses a 6k mile oil change and only
uses 20/50 oil. Seems to work for the first 180K miles.

You dont know how it would have gone with twice that change interval.

One of my relatives used sae5 oil and 1K service intervals, he achieved
150K miles in a 1950s Ford popular van without an engine change doing only
short journeys.

The technical term for that is 'pathetically inadequate sample'

On 20/07/2015 08:31, Tim Lamb wrote:
I think the Girling cylinders I struggled with on early minis were some
sort of alloy. White corrosion rather than rust.

I think I replaced every single cylinder on my Mini, which was only 4
years old. Nearly one a year. I haven't had to do one since.

Andy

On Sat, 18 Jul 2015 17:52:20 +0000 (UTC), Adrian
wrote:

Hydraulic Citroens used LHM - bright green

I see you said "used". Don't Citroen use this system any more? What a
shame. I used to own a Xantia and remember it fondly.

On 20/07/2015 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/07/15 08:56, kshy wrote:


"Tim Lamb" wrote in message

Dunno, whoever it was that said that they had had to replace
heaps at one time and none in the last few decades shows
that dramatic improvements have been made.

really materials have just got better: old hydraulic fluid absorbed
water and it collected in wheel cylinders and corroded them, seals went
and that was that..

Its unusual today to get that sort of failure.




Agreed. And, thinking about it, most of my failures in the past were on
drum brakes with cast iron cylinders. And on cars which were typically
ten years old or more.

Disks seem to cope better, perhaps the cylinder is no longer the lowest
part of the system, also I guess calipers tend to be aluminium alloy
rather than cast iron these days. I did have to replace one front brake
caliper on a Daihatsu Fourtrak three or four years ago.