Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but the
genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist board.
I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?) but here
in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

--
Paul
https://paulc.es

"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the
genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist board.
I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?) but
here
in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.


Hi

Sure the genny has "no neutral" and not "no earth"?

The usual trick is to fake an earth from the neutral of the genny (should
you need to).

A few details about the genny will help.

Cheers

--
Adam

ARW wrote:
"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in,
but the
genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist board.
I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?) but
here
in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.


Hi

Sure the genny has "no neutral" and not "no earth"?

The usual trick is to fake an earth from the neutral of the genny
(should you need to).

A few details about the genny will help.

Cheers

He might be talking about a 3 phase genny Adam?

Bob

Bob Minchin wrote:

ARW wrote:
"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in,
but the
genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist board.
I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?) but
here
in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.


Hi

Sure the genny has "no neutral" and not "no earth"?

The usual trick is to fake an earth from the neutral of the genny
(should you need to).

A few details about the genny will help.

Cheers

He might be talking about a 3 phase genny Adam?

See picture. I say there's no neutral because both terminals light up the
neon screwdriver.

--
Paul
https://paulc.es

In article ,
Paul Carmichael wrote:
See picture. I say there's no neutral because both terminals light up
the neon screwdriver.

Of course if there's no ground reference. You are acting as ground as far
as the neon is concerned.

If you rig up an isolating transformer (building site, etc) fed from UK
mains both of the output terminals on that would light up a neon too.

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Paul Carmichael wrote:
See picture. I say there's no neutral because both terminals light up
the neon screwdriver.

Of course if there's no ground reference. You are acting as ground as far
as the neon is concerned.

If you rig up an isolating transformer (building site, etc) fed from UK
mains both of the output terminals on that would light up a neon too.


So are you saying that if I connect the genny earth to the house earth I
would suddenly get a live and neutral as opposed to two lives?

--

Paul.
https://paulc.es

"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
ARW wrote:
"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in,
but the
genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist board.
I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?) but
here
in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.


Hi

Sure the genny has "no neutral" and not "no earth"?

The usual trick is to fake an earth from the neutral of the genny
(should you need to).

A few details about the genny will help.

Cheers

He might be talking about a 3 phase genny Adam?


More likely Spanish electrics that label the both the Live and Neutral as
Lines.

Lets see what info the OP can post about the genny. As the genny is for a
house it will still need a neutral (unless the Spanish are using 400V lamps)

--
Adam

ARW wrote:

"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
ARW wrote:
"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in,
but the
genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a
neutral?) but here
in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.


Hi

Sure the genny has "no neutral" and not "no earth"?

The usual trick is to fake an earth from the neutral of the genny
(should you need to).

A few details about the genny will help.

Cheers

He might be talking about a 3 phase genny Adam?


More likely Spanish electrics that label the both the Live and Neutral as
Lines.

Plugs and sockets are not considered phase-sensitive ie; the plug can go
either way up. But the genny isn't Spanish. I think it's Chinese.

http://www.itcpower.com/index.php?op...2&id=8&lang=en

Lets see what info the OP can post about the genny. As the genny is for a
house it will still need a neutral

It's not "for a house" as such. I bought it to use on site, but now the
house is finished I thought I'd use it for a backup supply at least for
office/freezer.

--
Paul
http://paulc.es

On 21/03/2015 14:52, Paul Carmichael wrote:
ARW wrote:

"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
ARW wrote:
"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in,
but the
genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a
neutral?) but here
in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.


Hi

Sure the genny has "no neutral" and not "no earth"?

The usual trick is to fake an earth from the neutral of the genny
(should you need to).

A few details about the genny will help.

Cheers

He might be talking about a 3 phase genny Adam?


More likely Spanish electrics that label the both the Live and Neutral as
Lines.

Plugs and sockets are not considered phase-sensitive ie; the plug can go
either way up. But the genny isn't Spanish. I think it's Chinese.

http://www.itcpower.com/index.php?op...2&id=8&lang=en

Does the Cupper Winding help you make tea?

ARW wrote:

"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the
genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist board.
I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?) but
here
in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.


Hi

Sure the genny has "no neutral" and not "no earth"?

The usual trick is to fake an earth from the neutral of the genny (should
you need to).

A few details about the genny will help.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...321_141811.jpg

I think the idea is to connect that earth terminal to an earth spike and
that provides an earth for the sockets.

When I fire it up and poke my neon screwdriver in the socket, both terminals
light it up.

--
Paul
https://paulc.es

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 14:52:18 +0100, Paulus wrote:


I think the idea is to connect that earth terminal to an earth spike and
that provides an earth for the sockets.

Yes, that's pretty much it.


When I fire it up and poke my neon screwdriver in the socket, both
terminals light it up.

That's (most likely) because the two terminals are the ends of a winding
that's having a voltage induced into it, it's floating.

Do you have the manual for the generator?

TBH I know nothing about the Spanish electrical distribution system; what
happens if you try the neon screwdriver test on your fixed sockets.

John wrote:

TBH I know nothing about the Spanish electrical distribution system; what
happens if you try the neon screwdriver test on your fixed sockets.

One terminal lights it up and the other doesn't. But the wiring here is
pretty phase-insensitive - in fact I recently found that the lighting in my
house had some switches on the neutral side which was playing tricks with
the modern bulbs. I've since changed this around.

--

Paul.
https://paulc.es

On Sun, 22 Mar 2015 11:37:48 +0100, Paul wrote:

John wrote:

TBH I know nothing about the Spanish electrical distribution system;
what happens if you try the neon screwdriver test on your fixed
sockets.

One terminal lights it up and the other doesn't. But the wiring here is
pretty phase-insensitive - in fact I recently found that the lighting in
my house had some switches on the neutral side which was playing tricks
with the modern bulbs. I've since changed this around.

As others have said it is possible to tie one end of the winding to
earth.

One thing you should watch out for is that the output of your generator
is unlikely to be sinusoidal, and whilst it's fine for powering tools and
the like, some electroinc equipment (computers, etc) might be very
unhappy about it. Best to use a sine wave generator for electronic
gadgets.

Generator v pure sine wave inverter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17YhjHJxatg

On 22/03/2015 10:37, Paul wrote:
John wrote:

TBH I know nothing about the Spanish electrical distribution system; what
happens if you try the neon screwdriver test on your fixed sockets.

One terminal lights it up and the other doesn't. But the wiring here is

ok that tells us something useful - that you have a similar live and
neutral setup to the UK rather than a split phase system like some of
the US. So as long at the generator does not have the earth terminal
connected centre tapped to the winding (unlikely) then you should be
able to connect it up in a sensible fashion.

pretty phase-insensitive - in fact I recently found that the lighting in my
house had some switches on the neutral side which was playing tricks with
the modern bulbs. I've since changed this around.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Paulus" wrote in message
...
ARW wrote:

"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the
genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist board.
I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?) but
here
in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.


Hi

Sure the genny has "no neutral" and not "no earth"?

The usual trick is to fake an earth from the neutral of the genny (should
you need to).

A few details about the genny will help.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...321_141811.jpg

I think the idea is to connect that earth terminal to an earth spike and
that provides an earth for the sockets.

That is correct - but see below

When I fire it up and poke my neon screwdriver in the socket, both
terminals
light it up.

That is because the neutral is not tied to ground.

You may already have an earth rod for your house electrics. if so then there
is no need for another earth rod rod for the genny.

Sometimes I link the neural and earth in the lead from the genny - it is
sometimes needed to do this to fire up boilers.

--
Adam

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but the
genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist board.
I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?) but here
in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output terminas you connect to ground.
They don't have an earth, a house needs that. If you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its best to also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod, its easy to fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a supplier earth when power's off.


NT

wrote:

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?)
but here in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output terminas
you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house needs that. If
you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its best to
also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod, its easy to
fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a supplier earth when
power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in other
post).

Both lines light up the neon screwdriver.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth spikes under
the extension which are also connected to all the steel reinforcing in the
concrete base.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.

--
Paul
http://paulc.es

Paul Carmichael wrote:

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.


Right. Inspected.

One wire from the earth terminal goes to the earth connectors in the
sockets. Another goes off to the generator.

Coming from the generator we have black and brown at 12v and blue and red at
220v.

I still don't know how to get a live and a neutral from what appears to be
true AC at 115-115 but without a 0.

Confused.

--

Paul.
https://paulc.es

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:20:12 +0100, Paul
wrote:

Paul Carmichael wrote:

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.


Right. Inspected.

One wire from the earth terminal goes to the earth connectors in the
sockets. Another goes off to the generator.

Coming from the generator we have black and brown at 12v and blue and red at
220v.

I still don't know how to get a live and a neutral from what appears to be
true AC at 115-115 but without a 0.

Confused.

I was too... by your use of three different usenet identities (Paul,
Paulus and Paul Carmichael).

However, leaving that aside, once I managed to find the posting with
a dropbox link to your photo of the generator panel, it would seem to
be the sort of small portable emergency generator sold by the likes of
Aldi from time to time back in blighty.

These are designed to power incandescent lighting and fridges and
freezers. Unfortunately, when it comes to supplying electrical loads
with anything more than a microfarad's worth of excess leading
current, the generator itself reacts by overvolting despite any AVR
controller circuit's best efforts to maintain the correct voltage
level. IOW, you might find problems if you have much in the way of
computer kit in your office, especially if you have a UPS or two in
the mix.

What appears to be the model number (GG2500C) suggests that it's a
2.5KVA rated generator (the Aldi one was 115v / 230v 2.8KVA rated, for
all the use it was for _my_ needs).

From your description, it appears that the two 110v windings have
been permanently linked in series in the generator head itself rather
than brought out to a voltage selector switch on the panel to cover
both mains voltage options as in the case of the Aldi 115/230v 2.8KVA
genset.

It's standard practice to leave the stator windings floating on
single phase gensets. The splittedness of the stator windings makes
for a very balanced floating supply, hence being able to detect
voltage using a neon tester on either outlet socket pin (live and
neutral as you referred to them. Are they actually 13A sockets hidden
under the flaps?).

If you're going to use it to provide emergency power to fridge /
freezer and incandescent table lamps, you're safest method is simply
to run an extension cable or two to where your appliances are and
transfer their plugs from the house sockets to the genset extension
sockets.

However, the floating output could still represent a hidden danger in
the event that items like fridges or freezers with their earthed metal
casings were to develop a live to casing fault which on its own
represents no immediate danger of electric shock (other than a mild
sensation of 100Hz tickle when lightly touched due to leakage paths to
earth , largely capacitive leakage when everything is nice and dry).

A worst case fault scenario is when a fridge adjacent to a freezer
develops respectively a live to case and a neutral to case fault. The
lack of a path to earth in the former case (because the neutral is
isolated from a good safety earth) means that the usual fuse
protection against such faults is rendered ineffective (the neutral to
case contact isn't normally a shock hazard[1]).

An obvious way to get around this problem is to use an rcd breaker
between the genset and the extension socket but you need to strap
what's marked as the neutral pin on the genset sockets across to the
earth and make sure to connect to a reasonably good earth connection.

With domestic electrical supplies, there are already enough ways to
create dangerous/lethal shock hazards. Adding an emergency genset into
the mix multiplies this risk management considerably. It can be done
with properly installed equipment and wiring practice by an
electrician who specialises in such installations.

For more casual use of such emergency gensets, limit your hook ups to
simply transferring the appliance plugs from the house sockets to the
genset sockets and stay mindful of the potential danger in using a
floating 220v supply[2].

[1] Neutral already being connected to earth at the sub-station anyway
on a single phase supply - I don't know about your Spanish supply. You
say the rcd breaker trips to an earth contact from any of the two
supply pins in the house sockets which implies the possibility of the
more expensive bi-phase cabling distribution system (two lives at 110v
each, summing up to 220v between the two power pins).

[2] If this was a UK installation with a good old fashioned
sub-station earth provided over the incoming cable's armouring, I'd
suggest the obvious solution of providing a special 2 or 3 way 13A
socket by which to physically plug appliances into the genset supply
where the genset connections for the 'neutral and the frame earth can
be strapped across to the house neutral and earth leaving the genset's
live only connected to the special 13A socket's Live and nothing else.

You could make up a connecting lead to go from the genset, normally
kept outside, with a suitable inline socket (a 10A IEC female socket
as used by the detachable mains leads used by PCs would be fine for
this where you plan to trail the lead into the house. The associated
permanent panel mounted shrouded plug will only give finger access to
the house neutral and earth connections and a dead "live pin"
connection.

A technically better (and marginally safer) option would be to use an
external weatherproof 16A IEC connector designed for such usgae on the
outside wall of the house handy to where you plan to run the emergency
genset.

Whichever method you use to connect to the special genset 13A
sockets, you gurantee that one of the generator terminals is connected
to neutral leaving the other connection to act as a live phase and the
genset framework earthed to the house earth which is generally an
order or three magnitude better than an earth spike alone.

However, it won't do any harm to provide the genset's frame an
additional connection to an independant earth spike connection. It
will keep it safe if you're using it to power external electrical
tools or just running it up for testing (or simply if someone pulls
the plug whilst the genset is still running).
--
J B Good

Johny B Good wrote:

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:20:12 +0100, Paul
wrote:

Paul Carmichael wrote:

Confused.

I was too... by your use of three different usenet identities (Paul,
Paulus and Paul Carmichael).

Heh. Fixed that now I think.


However, leaving that aside, once I managed to find the posting with
a dropbox link to your photo of the generator panel, it would seem to
be the sort of small portable emergency generator sold by the likes of
Aldi from time to time back in blighty.

These are designed to power incandescent lighting and fridges and
freezers. Unfortunately, when it comes to supplying electrical loads
with anything more than a microfarad's worth of excess leading
current, the generator itself reacts by overvolting despite any AVR
controller circuit's best efforts to maintain the correct voltage
level. IOW, you might find problems if you have much in the way of
computer kit in your office, especially if you have a UPS or two in
the mix.

Which is in fact the case. The main reason for wanting the emergency supply
was to be able to carry on working in my office (with it's 3 UPSs) in case
of power cut (we have many such things here as all the lines are above
ground).

Anyhoo, thank you for a well thought out and comprehensive reply. The thread
has been interesting for me and educative.

However, the conclusion I have to come to is that this genny is fit for what
I bought it for (site) but not for an emergency house supply.

Thanks to all for your input.

I shall now consider either a proper genny (now that I've forked out the 90
euros for a changeover switch) or a solar solution (we see a lot of sunshine
here).

--

Paul.
https://paulc.es

"Johny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:20:12 +0100, Paul
wrote:

Paul Carmichael wrote:

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.


Right. Inspected.

One wire from the earth terminal goes to the earth connectors in the
sockets. Another goes off to the generator.

Coming from the generator we have black and brown at 12v and blue and red
at
220v.

I still don't know how to get a live and a neutral from what appears to be
true AC at 115-115 but without a 0.

Confused.

I was too... by your use of three different usenet identities (Paul,
Paulus and Paul Carmichael).

However, leaving that aside, once I managed to find the posting with
a dropbox link to your photo of the generator panel, it would seem to
be the sort of small portable emergency generator sold by the likes of
Aldi from time to time back in blighty.

These are designed to power incandescent lighting and fridges and
freezers. Unfortunately, when it comes to supplying electrical loads
with anything more than a microfarad's worth of excess leading
current, the generator itself reacts by overvolting despite any AVR
controller circuit's best efforts to maintain the correct voltage
level. IOW, you might find problems if you have much in the way of
computer kit in your office, especially if you have a UPS or two in
the mix.

What appears to be the model number (GG2500C) suggests that it's a
2.5KVA rated generator (the Aldi one was 115v / 230v 2.8KVA rated, for
all the use it was for _my_ needs).

From your description, it appears that the two 110v windings have
been permanently linked in series in the generator head itself rather
than brought out to a voltage selector switch on the panel to cover
both mains voltage options as in the case of the Aldi 115/230v 2.8KVA
genset.

It's standard practice to leave the stator windings floating on
single phase gensets. The splittedness of the stator windings makes
for a very balanced floating supply, hence being able to detect
voltage using a neon tester on either outlet socket pin (live and
neutral as you referred to them. Are they actually 13A sockets hidden
under the flaps?).

If you're going to use it to provide emergency power to fridge /
freezer and incandescent table lamps, you're safest method is simply
to run an extension cable or two to where your appliances are and
transfer their plugs from the house sockets to the genset extension
sockets.

However, the floating output could still represent a hidden danger in
the event that items like fridges or freezers with their earthed metal
casings were to develop a live to casing fault which on its own
represents no immediate danger of electric shock (other than a mild
sensation of 100Hz tickle when lightly touched due to leakage paths to
earth , largely capacitive leakage when everything is nice and dry).

A worst case fault scenario is when a fridge adjacent to a freezer
develops respectively a live to case and a neutral to case fault. The
lack of a path to earth in the former case (because the neutral is
isolated from a good safety earth) means that the usual fuse
protection against such faults is rendered ineffective (the neutral to
case contact isn't normally a shock hazard[1]).

An obvious way to get around this problem is to use an rcd breaker
between the genset and the extension socket but you need to strap
what's marked as the neutral pin on the genset sockets across to the
earth and make sure to connect to a reasonably good earth connection.

With domestic electrical supplies, there are already enough ways to
create dangerous/lethal shock hazards. Adding an emergency genset into
the mix multiplies this risk management considerably. It can be done
with properly installed equipment and wiring practice by an
electrician who specialises in such installations.

For more casual use of such emergency gensets, limit your hook ups to
simply transferring the appliance plugs from the house sockets to the
genset sockets and stay mindful of the potential danger in using a
floating 220v supply[2].

[1] Neutral already being connected to earth at the sub-station anyway
on a single phase supply - I don't know about your Spanish supply. You
say the rcd breaker trips to an earth contact from any of the two
supply pins in the house sockets which implies the possibility of the
more expensive bi-phase cabling distribution system (two lives at 110v
each, summing up to 220v between the two power pins).

[2] If this was a UK installation with a good old fashioned
sub-station earth provided over the incoming cable's armouring, I'd
suggest the obvious solution of providing a special 2 or 3 way 13A
socket by which to physically plug appliances into the genset supply
where the genset connections for the 'neutral and the frame earth can
be strapped across to the house neutral and earth leaving the genset's
live only connected to the special 13A socket's Live and nothing else.

You could make up a connecting lead to go from the genset, normally
kept outside, with a suitable inline socket (a 10A IEC female socket
as used by the detachable mains leads used by PCs would be fine for
this where you plan to trail the lead into the house. The associated
permanent panel mounted shrouded plug will only give finger access to
the house neutral and earth connections and a dead "live pin"
connection.

A technically better (and marginally safer) option would be to use an
external weatherproof 16A IEC connector designed for such usgae on the
outside wall of the house handy to where you plan to run the emergency
genset.

Whichever method you use to connect to the special genset 13A
sockets, you gurantee that one of the generator terminals is connected
to neutral leaving the other connection to act as a live phase and the
genset framework earthed to the house earth which is generally an
order or three magnitude better than an earth spike alone.

However, it won't do any harm to provide the genset's frame an
additional connection to an independant earth spike connection. It
will keep it safe if you're using it to power external electrical
tools or just running it up for testing (or simply if someone pulls
the plug whilst the genset is still running).


That is probably the best reply to this thread.

Now after reading the rest of the posts we can conclude that the OP has a TT
supply (or a Spanish equivalent) and that the house CU will have RCD
protection (a quick Google search suggests that Spanish electrical
installations require DP switched RCDs/RCBOs on all circuits).

So the OP now needs to suck it and see. Your point about the genny being a
110-0-110 V centre tapped earth supply does not preclude it from operating
most of the house electrical supply.

It will not matter if the genny is supplying 110-0-110V or 220V to most
equipment - the waveform of the gennys output is more relevant and might
cause some items not to work.

--
Adam

On 21/03/2015 15:46, Paul Carmichael wrote:
wrote:

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?)
but here in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output terminas
you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house needs that. If
you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its best to
also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod, its easy to
fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a supplier earth when
power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in other
post).

Both lines light up the neon screwdriver.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth spikes under
the extension which are also connected to all the steel reinforcing in the
concrete base.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.

Some 110V sources are split either side of earth. I have no idea of this
is the case for your genny, on either/both the 230 and 115V settings.

Personally, I would earth the earth lead to your house earth. Depending
on how you use it, that might happen anyway.

Fredxxx wrote:

On 21/03/2015 15:46, Paul Carmichael wrote:
wrote:

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a
neutral?) but here in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips
the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output
terminas you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house needs
that. If you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its
best to also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod,
its easy to fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a
supplier earth when power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in other
post).

Both lines light up the neon screwdriver.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth spikes
under the extension which are also connected to all the steel reinforcing
in the concrete base.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.

Some 110V sources are split either side of earth. I have no idea of this
is the case for your genny, on either/both the 230 and 115V settings.

Personally, I would earth the earth lead to your house earth. Depending
on how you use it, that might happen anyway.

I was going to connect a plug to the house side and plug that into the
genny, which would include an earth connection. But I don't know how to wire
the plug if I don't know which wire will be "neutral". I suppose I could
connect the genny earth terminal to a nearby earth spike, fire it up and see
what happens.
--

Paul.
https://paulc.es

Paul wrote:
Fredxxx wrote:

On 21/03/2015 15:46, Paul Carmichael wrote:
wrote:

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a
neutral?) but here in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips
the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output
terminas you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house needs
that. If you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its
best to also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod,
its easy to fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a
supplier earth when power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in other
post).

Both lines light up the neon screwdriver.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth spikes
under the extension which are also connected to all the steel reinforcing
in the concrete base.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.

Some 110V sources are split either side of earth. I have no idea of this
is the case for your genny, on either/both the 230 and 115V settings.

Personally, I would earth the earth lead to your house earth. Depending
on how you use it, that might happen anyway.

I was going to connect a plug to the house side and plug that into the
genny, which would include an earth connection. But I don't know how to wire
the plug if I don't know which wire will be "neutral". I suppose I could
connect the genny earth terminal to a nearby earth spike, fire it up and see
what happens.

That is lethal and known as a widow-maker. You clearly have no idea what
you are doing. Stop right now and get local knowledgeable help.

On 21/03/2015 16:55, Paul wrote:
Fredxxx wrote:

On 21/03/2015 15:46, Paul Carmichael wrote:
wrote:

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a
neutral?) but here in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips
the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output
terminas you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house needs
that. If you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its
best to also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod,
its easy to fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a
supplier earth when power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in other
post).

Both lines light up the neon screwdriver.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth spikes
under the extension which are also connected to all the steel reinforcing
in the concrete base.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.

Some 110V sources are split either side of earth. I have no idea of this
is the case for your genny, on either/both the 230 and 115V settings.

Personally, I would earth the earth lead to your house earth. Depending
on how you use it, that might happen anyway.

I was going to connect a plug to the house side and plug that into the
genny, which would include an earth connection. But I don't know how to wire
the plug if I don't know which wire will be "neutral". I suppose I could
connect the genny earth terminal to a nearby earth spike, fire it up and see
what happens.

Have you measure between lines and earth? And checked the earth pin is
connected to the genny frame?

I thought those connectors did specify neutral and live?

On 21/03/15 16:55, Paul wrote:

I was going to connect a plug to the house side and plug that into the
genny, which would include an earth connection. But I don't know how to wire
the plug if I don't know which wire will be "neutral". I suppose I could
connect the genny earth terminal to a nearby earth spike, fire it up and see
what happens.

That's called a Jesus Cord.

Because when you pick up the wrong end, you either yell "Jesus" or you
meet him.

Seriously - stop it now. You're dangerous.


One other factor you may need to consider is that it is unwise to rely
on the supplier's earth during supply failure - indeed, if the supplier
has a nuetral fault and you're on a TN-C-S (also referred to as PME)
your supply earth may drift quite some volts (10s, 100s if you were
really unlucky) above nominal earth outside your house.

The usual route here is to put an earth spike or two in and bond that to
the MET - but as this connection may become a route for current in the
event of certain faults, it needs special consideration to do it correctly.


And no, you cannot switch the house earth between the supply earth and
your local rod when you are using a generator.

"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
wrote:

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a
neutral?)
but here in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output
terminas
you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house needs that. If
you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its best to
also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod, its easy to
fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a supplier earth when
power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in other
post).

Both lines light up the neon screwdriver.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth spikes
under
the extension which are also connected to all the steel reinforcing in the
concrete base.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.

--
Paul
http://paulc.es

You might find the generator winding is centre tapped to earth.
This is what's done in the UK with 110 volt tool transformers.
This means that there is 55 volts to earth on both poles.

If your neon lights up on both poles, it sounds likely.

On 21/03/2015 17:42, harryagain wrote:
"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
wrote:

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a
neutral?)
but here in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output
terminas
you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house needs that. If
you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its best to
also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod, its easy to
fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a supplier earth when
power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in other
post).

Both lines light up the neon screwdriver.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth spikes
under
the extension which are also connected to all the steel reinforcing in the
concrete base.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.

--
Paul
http://paulc.es

You might find the generator winding is centre tapped to earth.
This is what's done in the UK with 110 volt tool transformers.
This means that there is 55 volts to earth on both poles.

If your neon lights up on both poles, it sounds likely.

That does not follow.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 21/03/2015 17:42, harryagain wrote:
"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...
wrote:

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in,
but
the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a
neutral?)
but here in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the
rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output
terminas
you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house needs that. If
you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its best to
also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod, its easy
to
fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a supplier earth
when
power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in other
post).

Both lines light up the neon screwdriver.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth spikes
under
the extension which are also connected to all the steel reinforcing in
the
concrete base.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.

--
Paul
http://paulc.es

You might find the generator winding is centre tapped to earth.
This is what's done in the UK with 110 volt tool transformers.
This means that there is 55 volts to earth on both poles.

If your neon lights up on both poles, it sounds likely.

That does not follow.

If the winding is centre tapped toearth, both poles will be live with
respect to earth.
At half the voltage that appears between the poles.
In effect a "two phase" output with the phases at 180deg.

On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 3:46:13 PM UTC, Paul wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in, but
the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a neutral?)
but here in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the rcds..

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output terminas
you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house needs that. If
you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its best to
also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod, its easy to
fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a supplier earth when
power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in other
post).

There are no photos, this is usenet.
A connector from gen chassis to earth terminal on its socket does not provide an adequate earth.

Both lines light up the neon screwdriver.

That tells us little. You could do with a multimeter. They're under £3 now.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth spikes under
the extension which are also connected to all the steel reinforcing in the
concrete base.

That's a highly effective earth, called a Ufer earth. So you dont need any additional earthing, as long as gen earth terminal connects to house wiring earth.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.

There are 3 possibilities
a) output isnt connected to gen chassis
b) one output pole is connected to gen chassis
c) gen centre tap connects to chassis

Resistance readings with gen not running should tell you which.
If a is the case, you can connect either of the output poles to ground and call it neutral.
If b is the case, the pole connecting to chassis must be your neutral.
If c, you mustnt connect either pole to ground, and you get to live with dual pole live, no neutral. You'd then need 2 pole fusing - the gen is likely to have that onboard.


NT

On 21/03/2015 20:02, wrote:
On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 3:46:13 PM UTC, Paul wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael
wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch
in, but the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the
gubbins in the dist board. I've see here stuff about grounding
one phase (to fake a neutral?) but here in Spain we don't have
PME and ground+anything trips the rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output
terminas you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house
needs that. If you have a local earth rod, that's already
covered, though its best to also connect earth to (genny)
neutral. If no local earth rod, its easy to fit one as a
supplementary earth. You can't rely on a supplier earth when
power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth
connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in
other post).

That tells us little. You could do with a multimeter. They're under
£3 now.


Indeed.

If you start with the genny powered down and disconnected. Use your
multimeter on a resistance range to check the resistance between both
outputs and the earth connection on the socket. If you get infinite or a
very high resistance reading (= megohms) between either output and the
earth terminal, then you are good to go, since you now know there is no
internal earth connection between either side of the generator winding
and the earth terminal. Follow the instructions in my other post about
how to connect it up.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth

A "supplier earth" is what some electrical supplies will include - they
will supply three connections live, neutral, and earth. Common in the
UK. With these there is no need for additional earth spikes etc at the
property.

spikes under the extension which are also connected to all the
steel reinforcing in the concrete base.

That's a highly effective earth, called a Ufer earth. So you dont
need any additional earthing, as long as gen earth terminal connects
to house wiring earth.

See the TT earthing article I pointed you at elsewhere.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

That will happen even with PME in most houses, since its common for the
neutral voltage to rise a little above the earth when connected to a
load. That will allow enough current to flow to earth when the are
connected to cause a RCD trip.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal
is internally connected to one of the lines.

There are 3 possibilities a) output isnt connected to gen chassis b)
one output pole is connected to gen chassis c) gen centre tap
connects to chassis

Resistance readings with gen not running should tell you which. If a
is the case, you can connect either of the output poles to ground and
call it neutral. If b is the case, the pole connecting to chassis
must be your neutral. If c, you mustnt connect either pole to ground,
and you get to live with dual pole live, no neutral. You'd then need
2 pole fusing - the gen is likely to have that onboard.

If C, its also not really suitable for connection to a house electrical
system. Restrict its use to feeding a few appliances via separate
extension wires etc.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

If you start with the genny powered down and disconnected. Use your
multimeter on a resistance range to check the resistance between both
outputs and the earth connection on the socket. If you get infinite or a
very high resistance reading (= megohms) between either output and the
earth terminal, then you are good to go, since you now know there is no
internal earth connection between either side of the generator winding
and the earth terminal. Follow the instructions in my other post about
how to connect it up.

If it stops raining for a minute[1], I'll nip out into the garage and prod
things with a meter. Just for a laugh. I'm tempted to carry on with the
plan, but I'm now a bit scared I'm going to kill my UPSs.

Praps I should buy one of those inverter jobbies. Or make one. Can't be
difficult - I have a few soldering irons.

--

Paul.
https://paulc.es

wrote in message
...
On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 3:46:13 PM UTC, Paul wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 12:09:26 PM UTC, Paul Carmichael wrote:
Howdy.

Geezer over on the bike group says that I should ask you.

I want to connect a genny to my house. Got the isolating switch in,
but
the genny has no neutral. I don't want to fry the gubbins in the dist
board. I've see here stuff about grounding one phase (to fake a
neutral?)
but here in Spain we don't have PME and ground+anything trips the
rcds.

Any idea?

Cheers in advance.

Portable gens have a neutral, its whichever of the 2 power output
terminas
you connect to ground. They don't have an earth, a house needs that. If
you have a local earth rod, that's already covered, though its best to
also connect earth to (genny) neutral. If no local earth rod, its easy
to
fit one as a supplementary earth. You can't rely on a supplier earth
when
power's off.

I'm not sure I understand any of that.

The genny has two "normal" socket outlets including earth connectors.

There is an earth terminal connector on the chassis (see photo in other
post).

There are no photos, this is usenet.

There was a link to a photo.

A connector from gen chassis to earth terminal on its socket does not
provide an adequate earth.

Both lines light up the neon screwdriver.

That tells us little. You could do with a multimeter. They're under £3
now.

I don't know what a "supplier earth" is. The house has 6 earth spikes
under
the extension which are also connected to all the steel reinforcing in
the
concrete base.

That's a highly effective earth, called a Ufer earth. So you dont need any
additional earthing, as long as gen earth terminal connects to house
wiring earth.

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

I'm going to inspect the genny wiring to see if the earth terminal is
internally connected to one of the lines.

There are 3 possibilities
a) output isnt connected to gen chassis
b) one output pole is connected to gen chassis
c) gen centre tap connects to chassis

Resistance readings with gen not running should tell you which.
If a is the case, you can connect either of the output poles to ground and
call it neutral.
If b is the case, the pole connecting to chassis must be your neutral.
If c, you mustnt connect either pole to ground, and you get to live with
dual pole live, no neutral. You'd then need 2 pole fusing - the gen is
likely to have that onboard.


NT

wrote:

That tells us little. You could do with a multimeter. They're under £3
now.

Heh. When the old-time sparky came around to look at my swimming pool pump,
he saw my Avo-meter on the shelf. He said "next time you need a new pump,
we'll do a deal for that meter" - pumps cost about 200 euros.

Actually he didn't say that, he said "la próxima vez que necesites una
bomba..." - oh never mind.

But I do also have one of those 3 quid plastic things for when accuracy
isn't an issue ;-)

--

Paul.
https://paulc.es

"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

Is that the house RCD or the genny RCD? If the genny has an RCD then you
cannot link the N&E together on the output - you would have to do it on the
internal wiring - if indeed you need to do it at all.
I did Scraggys genny with a NE link and added an earth rod (to the house and
not the genny) to ensure that his boiler would fire up should the cause of a
powercut at his place be caused by a cut supply cable to his house.



--
Adam

ARW wrote:

"Paul Carmichael" wrote in message
...

There is no PME here. Touch the neutral to earth and the RCD trips
immediately.

Is that the house RCD or the genny RCD?

House. Genny has a simple 16A trip as far as I can tell.

If the genny has an RCD then you
cannot link the N&E together on the output - you would have to do it on
the internal wiring - if indeed you need to do it at all.
I did Scraggys genny with a NE link and added an earth rod (to the house
and not the genny) to ensure that his boiler would fire up should the
cause of a powercut at his place be caused by a cut supply cable to his
house.

This house has the mother of all earth setups.

--

Paul.
https://paulc.es