http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?

Jim K

On 02/02/2015 13:06, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
JimK wrote:

http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...+your+question

s+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?

Hard to say, although the adjective "thermodynamic" is meaningless as
applied to these panels.

Actually it is very indicative of a liberal application of snake oil.

Caveat emptor!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

JimK wrote:

http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?

£5500 to install plus 33p/day to run, vs sticking with my 60p/day to
run? It might be nice to think I'll live the 57 years to break even, but ...

On Monday, 2 February 2015 13:16:47 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
JimK wrote:

http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?

£5500 to install plus 33p/day to run, vs sticking with my 60p/day to
run? It might be nice to think I'll live the 57 years to break even, but ....

what do you get for 60p a day though?

Jim K

In article , Martin Brown
writes

Actually it is very indicative of a liberal application of snake oil.

If that stuff leaks out it can make a hell of a mess of your carpets :-/

"Having heard quite a few outrageous claims made for these panels at
trade shows last year, my advice would be for buyers to be wary of
investing at this stage, until there has been some testing in the UK,
and standards for performance are set by MCS."

sounds like a good summary.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

JimK wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

£5500 to install plus 33p/day to run, vs sticking with my 60p/day to
run? It might be nice to think I'll live the 57 years to break even, but ...

what do you get for 60p a day though?

Traditional H/W tank heated twice a day, one of which will generally be
a minimal top-up, their system might be sized for showering a couple of
teenagers I suppose ...

JimK wrote:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?

Jim K

PV panel efficiency drops off with increased panel temperature. Standard
PV panels are normally mounted a few inches off the roof surface where
natural convection currents help cool the back of the panel.
Putting a solar thermal panel behind defeats this. By the time the
thermal part of the panel is up to a useful water heating temperature
say 80c or more, the efficiency of the PV is well down the slippery slope.

Also the proportions are all wrong. For a domestic installation, 10-15
sq m of PV is about right but you only need a solar thermal aperture of
say 2sq m to get more than enough hot water.

Bob Minchin wrote:

the proportions are all wrong. For a domestic installation, 10-15 sq
m of PV is about right but you only need a solar thermal aperture of
say 2sq m to get more than enough hot water.

The way I read it, there's nothing photovoltaic about them, they're a
heat-pump version of solar water heating panels ...

Andy Burns wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote:

the proportions are all wrong. For a domestic installation, 10-15 sq
m of PV is about right but you only need a solar thermal aperture of
say 2sq m to get more than enough hot water.

The way I read it, there's nothing photovoltaic about them, they're a
heat-pump version of solar water heating panels ...

Yes Apologies, I jumped to a conclusion that they were the same as I saw
at an exhibition last year.

I don't think these have anything to offer. I have 30 x 58mm evacuated
tubes (about 2 sq m) and a 357 litre store. I collect so much from this
system that in peak summer, I'm sending excess heat to bathroom towel
rail once the store has got to 93 degrees C

In article , Andy Burns wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote:

the proportions are all wrong. For a domestic installation, 10-15 sq
m of PV is about right but you only need a solar thermal aperture of
say 2sq m to get more than enough hot water.

The way I read it, there's nothing photovoltaic about them, they're a
heat-pump version of solar water heating panels ...

Many many years ago I read a book which said heat pump plus solar was the
most efficient heating system, but the capital installation costs made it
impractical. It's got somewhat cheaper since, and the principle is still
sound, but the vendors do seem prone to hyperbole.

Bob's objection sounds more like hybrid ("PV-T") panels. cf.
http://www.solarblogger.net/2012/10/...good-idea.html
"It is possible to imagine a solar heating application which would keep the
temperature lower for more of the day. For example PV-T panels heating
water in a swimming pool would operate at 30-40 degrees all the time."
Since I have a swimming pool with a failing gas heater....

However, there is an obvious connection between heat pumps and hybrid panels -
the PV part of the panel will be more efficient at temperatures which are
lower than you want for hot water. But if you use some of the PV electricity
to run a heat pump, you can have panels producing luke warm water, and the
output of the heat pump producing hot water (i.e. same as the "thermodynamic"
panels, but with added PV, in less roof space than separate "thermodynamic"
and PV panels, and with the PV cooled for better efficiency).

You can even make the initial system cost even higher, by combining it with
a ground source heat pump, and using surplus solar heat to warm up for subsoil
to be recovered at night, or even in winter.....
e.g. http://zerocarbonsolution.co.uk/technology/

On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 12:57:03 PM UTC, JimK wrote:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?


"How much hot water do they produce?

They claim to provide 100% of the hot water requirements for domestic and commercial premises, swimming pools, underfloor heating and can make a contribution to traditional central heating. They come with a built in immersion which uses electricity to boost the water to 60 degrees every so often to avoid any risk of legionella."

anyone spot a slight contradiction?


NT

wrote:
On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 12:57:03 PM UTC, JimK wrote:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?


"How much hot water do they produce?

They claim to provide 100% of the hot water requirements for domestic and
commercial premises, swimming pools, underfloor heating and can make a
contribution to traditional central heating. They come with a built in
immersion which uses electricity to boost the water to 60 degrees every
so often to avoid any risk of legionella."

anyone spot a slight contradiction?


NT

Yes and no. Isn't an immersion for legionella eradication good practice and
fairly normal for cylinders running as sub-60 temperatures most of the
time?

Tim

On 02/02/2015 18:13, Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 12:57:03 PM UTC, JimK wrote:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?


"How much hot water do they produce?

They claim to provide 100% of the hot water requirements for domestic and
commercial premises, swimming pools, underfloor heating and can make a
contribution to traditional central heating. They come with a built in
immersion which uses electricity to boost the water to 60 degrees every
so often to avoid any risk of legionella."

anyone spot a slight contradiction?


NT

Yes and no. Isn't an immersion for legionella eradication good practice and
fairly normal for cylinders running as sub-60 temperatures most of the
time?

Tim


I am not convinced that you need to run at a high temp in a sealed
system but they tell you that you should.
If it were true then the chlorine in the pipes wouldn't make tap water
safe either.

In article ,
Tim+ writes:
wrote:
On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 12:57:03 PM UTC, JimK wrote:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?


"How much hot water do they produce?

They claim to provide 100% of the hot water requirements for domestic and
commercial premises, swimming pools, underfloor heating and can make a
contribution to traditional central heating. They come with a built in
immersion which uses electricity to boost the water to 60 degrees every
so often to avoid any risk of legionella."

I considered a few things for hot water, until I eventually collected
enough data to show that the spend on hot water heating was negligable
compared with central heating, and nothing would ever pay back the
investment.

anyone spot a slight contradiction?

Yes and no. Isn't an immersion for legionella eradication good practice and
fairly normal for cylinders running as sub-60 temperatures most of the
time?

I'm not convinced legionella eradication is a good idea. Exposure to
it whilst you are healthy generates immunity. It only started to become
a problem when we started trying to create super-hygenic water systems,
which may have prevented regular exposure and immunity for some people.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ writes:
wrote:
On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 12:57:03 PM UTC, JimK wrote:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?


"How much hot water do they produce?

They claim to provide 100% of the hot water requirements for domestic
and commercial premises, swimming pools, underfloor heating and can
make a contribution to traditional central heating. They come with a
built in immersion which uses electricity to boost the water to 60
degrees every so often to avoid any risk of legionella."

I considered a few things for hot water, until I eventually collected
enough data to show that the spend on hot water heating was negligable
compared with central heating, and nothing would ever pay back the
investment.

anyone spot a slight contradiction?

Yes and no. Isn't an immersion for legionella eradication good practice
and fairly normal for cylinders running as sub-60 temperatures most of
the time?

I'm not convinced legionella eradication is a good idea. Exposure to it
whilst you are healthy generates immunity. It only started to become a
problem when we started trying to create super-hygenic water systems,
which may have prevented regular exposure and immunity for some people.

As someone who has suffered from legionella, I'd say you don't know
anything about it. Exposure, when you are healthy results in a severe fever
from which many people die; I know that my lung capacity was permanently
reduced by over 50%. Future immunity is not guaranteed; I certainly
wouldn't want to risk getting again.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 02/02/2015 21:02, charles wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ writes:
wrote:
On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 12:57:03 PM UTC, JimK wrote:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?


"How much hot water do they produce?

They claim to provide 100% of the hot water requirements for domestic
and commercial premises, swimming pools, underfloor heating and can
make a contribution to traditional central heating. They come with a
built in immersion which uses electricity to boost the water to 60
degrees every so often to avoid any risk of legionella."

I considered a few things for hot water, until I eventually collected
enough data to show that the spend on hot water heating was negligable
compared with central heating, and nothing would ever pay back the
investment.

anyone spot a slight contradiction?

Yes and no. Isn't an immersion for legionella eradication good practice
and fairly normal for cylinders running as sub-60 temperatures most of
the time?

I'm not convinced legionella eradication is a good idea. Exposure to it
whilst you are healthy generates immunity. It only started to become a
problem when we started trying to create super-hygenic water systems,
which may have prevented regular exposure and immunity for some people.

As someone who has suffered from legionella, I'd say you don't know
anything about it. Exposure, when you are healthy results in a severe fever
from which many people die; I know that my lung capacity was permanently
reduced by over 50%. Future immunity is not guaranteed; I certainly
wouldn't want to risk getting again.

I understand immunity can last up to a year.

But most people are unaffected by Legionella, and seemingly only affects
those with a poor immune system such as the old. Healthy people are
generally unaware they may have the disease.

/....system that in peak summer, I'm sending excess heat to bathroom towel
rail once the store has got to 93 degrees C /q


Sounds useful....

What do you get out of them in winter when you really need all you can get?

Jim K

/The way I read it, there's nothing photovoltaic about them, they're a
heat-pump version of solar water heating panels ... /q

Precisement

Jim K

In article , Fredxxx wrote:
On 02/02/2015 21:02, charles wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ writes:
wrote:
On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 12:57:03 PM UTC, JimK wrote:
http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/2...ions+answered/

anyone got em yet? any good?


"How much hot water do they produce?

They claim to provide 100% of the hot water requirements for
domestic and commercial premises, swimming pools, underfloor heating
and can make a contribution to traditional central heating. They
come with a built in immersion which uses electricity to boost the
water to 60 degrees every so often to avoid any risk of legionella."

I considered a few things for hot water, until I eventually collected
enough data to show that the spend on hot water heating was negligable
compared with central heating, and nothing would ever pay back the
investment.

anyone spot a slight contradiction?

Yes and no. Isn't an immersion for legionella eradication good
practice and fairly normal for cylinders running as sub-60
temperatures most of the time?

I'm not convinced legionella eradication is a good idea. Exposure to
it whilst you are healthy generates immunity. It only started to
become a problem when we started trying to create super-hygenic water
systems, which may have prevented regular exposure and immunity for
some people.

As someone who has suffered from legionella, I'd say you don't know
anything about it. Exposure, when you are healthy results in a severe
fever from which many people die; I know that my lung capacity was
permanently reduced by over 50%. Future immunity is not guaranteed; I
certainly wouldn't want to risk getting again.

I understand immunity can last up to a year.

But most people are unaffected by Legionella, and seemingly only affects
those with a poor immune system such as the old. Healthy people are
generally unaware they may have the disease.

I wasn't old when I got it, which is probably why I recovered. The outbreak
that affected me also killed 3 people and seriously affected one of my
colleagues - he is younger than me.
Legionella is a particularly nasty variant of pneumonia which does not
respond to regular antibiotics.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

JimK wrote:
/....system that in peak summer, I'm sending excess heat to bathroom towel
rail once the store has got to 93 degrees C /q


Sounds useful....

What do you get out of them in winter when you really need all you can get?

Jim K

Virtually nothing in December and January although on a bright but cold
day, 3-4kWh is possible.

This maybe all you wanted to know but here is a bit more if you are
interested.
Heat input comes from solar thermal tubes and any excess PV. A diverter
acts to send any spare pv to the immersion rather than export any to the
grid. In the winter, the PV goes to an immersion half way up the tank,
in summer it goes in at the bottom to increase the storage potential.
In winter effectively only the top half of the store is in use with
inputs from boiler and excess PV and extracted from the top via the DHW
heat exchanger. The tank is allowed to stratify. In summer the whole
store is used. Inputs from PV and solar thermal go in at the bottom and
a de-stratification pump can optionally be used to maximise the energy
capacity by the whole store being at 93 C
Summer and winter are simply names for the two modes and not calendar
definitions.
Typically winter mode is used from November to mid March

The control system is work in progress, but at the moment, the tank stat
that controls the boiler is set to 60C and the timer runs the boiler for
20 mins in the morning which gives enough DHW for morning ablutions and
odd needs during the day (we are all (3 adults) at home all day normally).
If there is any solar input, this adds heat during the day and then at
5pm the boiler runs for 30 mins as needed.
If the solar gain has been significant , then the tank stat will turn
the boiler off sooner.

From March to October, it is rare for the boiler to fire at all for DHW

The cylinder is very well lagged (75mm foam) even so measurements show
that it loses 10-15% of its heat capacity over night.

My proposed control system will endeavour to minimise the energy stored
overnight when it has been sourced by burning gas.
The main input to this will be my "calorimeter". This measures the
cylinder temperature at 7 places vertically (the store is 2.2m tall
deliberately to allow stratification), as well as the output temperature
from the TMV (its control knob is not calibrated) and the cold inlet
temperature. From this data, it calculates how much water can be drawn
off before the output temperature would fall below the setting of the TMV.
The calorimeter is all working but just has a display at the moment.
Eventually it will be integrated into closed loop control.

A few pics

Cylinder and sensors:
http://s115.photobucket.com/user/9fi...3b568.jpg.html

Control panel (under development):
http://s115.photobucket.com/user/9fi...34cfd.jpg.html

Calorimeter display:

http://s115.photobucket.com/user/9fi...82e59.jpg.html

top row: cylinder temps top(right) bottom (left)
2nd row: Actual in and out temperatures
3rd row: cold temperature (trough hold-slow rise) and output
temperature (peak hold-slow fall)
bottom row: Processing time mS: calculated volume of useful hot water:
software version number.

As you might have gathered this has been a bit of a 'project' undertaken
to keep me out of mischief since retiring.

There is a bit more of a write up here
http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/vi...hp?f=9&t=10577
if I have not bored everyone rigid so far!

Bob

In article , Bob Minchin
writes

There is a bit more of a write up here
http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/vi...hp?f=9&t=10577
if I have not bored everyone rigid so far!

A nice job (including the cupboard) and very interesting (I read right
to the bottom :-), thanks for sharing.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

fred wrote:
In article , Bob Minchin
writes

There is a bit more of a write up here
http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/vi...hp?f=9&t=10577
if I have not bored everyone rigid so far!

A nice job (including the cupboard) and very interesting (I read right
to the bottom :-), thanks for sharing.

Thanks Fred,

Here is a bit more of the cupboard.

http://s115.photobucket.com/user/9fi...70e5e.jpg.html

And a roll out airing cupboard although it does not get very warm due to
the tank insulation!

http://s115.photobucket.com/user/9fi...01d63.jpg.html

Bob

In article , Bob Minchin
writes

Here is a bit more of the cupboard.

http://s115.photobucket.com/user/9fi..._zps3e070e5e.j
pg.html

And a roll out airing cupboard although it does not get very warm due to
the tank insulation!

http://s115.photobucket.com/user/9fi..._zps73a01d63.j
pg.html

Yes, I explored a short way left and right in the album and found those.
I liked that the wood had been left light, very natural looking.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .