We were welcomed back from holiday by a cold house and defrosting
freezer! Put early evening clockwise travel on the M25 into perspective.

Thank heavens for log burners:-)

Initial investigation found that the boiler system was tripping the 30ma
RCD protecting the ring mains. Isolating the boiler got things running
and we spent the evening sorting partly defrosted foodstuffs.

With the boiler fully disconnected (Potterton Profile 100E yes I know it
is old and inefficient) the fault persisted. With the circulating pump
isolated and the boiler reconnected the fault disappeared.

Eureka moment, the pump must be faulty I'll replace it with one of the
two spares I have in the barn. Bit of furbishing with a wire brush and a
check that the spindle rotates and in it goes. Ta-ra! Switch on and out
pops the 3 Amp fuse! Duff capacitor? Change that. Now which terminals
did the old one use? More fuses. Must be the motor, try the second
back-up. More fuses.

About now I began to wonder if I had inadvertently swopped the two black
wires (pump) when re-connecting the boiler wiring......

I have the *S* plan circuit diagram (wiki.diyfaq....) which largely
agrees with what I am finding. Is there another diagram which would
explain the two *pump* connections at the boiler? My system uses the
bathroom radiators for bypass purposes so the pump runs on after the
heat call is satisfied.

Of course hidden cable runs and Mice remain a consideration!


--
Tim Lamb

On 09/11/2014 09:49, Tim Lamb wrote:
We were welcomed back from holiday by a cold house and defrosting
freezer! Put early evening clockwise travel on the M25 into perspective.

Thank heavens for log burners:-)

Initial investigation found that the boiler system was tripping the 30ma
RCD protecting the ring mains. Isolating the boiler got things running
and we spent the evening sorting partly defrosted foodstuffs.

With the boiler fully disconnected (Potterton Profile 100E yes I know it
is old and inefficient) the fault persisted. With the circulating pump
isolated and the boiler reconnected the fault disappeared.

Eureka moment, the pump must be faulty I'll replace it with one of the
two spares I have in the barn. Bit of furbishing with a wire brush and a
check that the spindle rotates and in it goes. Ta-ra! Switch on and out
pops the 3 Amp fuse! Duff capacitor? Change that. Now which terminals
did the old one use? More fuses. Must be the motor, try the second
back-up. More fuses.

About now I began to wonder if I had inadvertently swopped the two black
wires (pump) when re-connecting the boiler wiring......

I have the *S* plan circuit diagram (wiki.diyfaq....) which largely
agrees with what I am finding. Is there another diagram which would
explain the two *pump* connections at the boiler? My system uses the
bathroom radiators for bypass purposes so the pump runs on after the
heat call is satisfied.

Of course hidden cable runs and Mice remain a consideration!

Powering up the pump on a bit of flex connected to a plug (with 3A) fuse
may either eliminate or direct suspicion in this case. (if you can stick
an ammeter in there as well - even better). That way you would know if
its really the pump or the wiring.

If its looking like the wiring, then disconnecting from the boiler etc
and buzzing out (possibly testing with an insulation resistance meter)
would probably be my next step.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 09/11/2014 09:49, Tim Lamb wrote:
We were welcomed back from holiday by a cold house and defrosting
freezer! Put early evening clockwise travel on the M25 into perspective.

Thank heavens for log burners:-)

Initial investigation found that the boiler system was tripping the 30ma
RCD protecting the ring mains. Isolating the boiler got things running
and we spent the evening sorting partly defrosted foodstuffs.

With the boiler fully disconnected (Potterton Profile 100E yes I know it
is old and inefficient) the fault persisted. With the circulating pump
isolated and the boiler reconnected the fault disappeared.

Eureka moment, the pump must be faulty I'll replace it with one of the
two spares I have in the barn. Bit of furbishing with a wire brush and a
check that the spindle rotates and in it goes. Ta-ra! Switch on and out
pops the 3 Amp fuse! Duff capacitor? Change that. Now which terminals
did the old one use? More fuses. Must be the motor, try the second
back-up. More fuses.

About now I began to wonder if I had inadvertently swopped the two black
wires (pump) when re-connecting the boiler wiring......

I have the *S* plan circuit diagram (wiki.diyfaq....) which largely
agrees with what I am finding. Is there another diagram which would
explain the two *pump* connections at the boiler? My system uses the
bathroom radiators for bypass purposes so the pump runs on after the
heat call is satisfied.

Of course hidden cable runs and Mice remain a consideration!

Powering up the pump on a bit of flex connected to a plug (with 3A)
fuse may either eliminate or direct suspicion in this case. (if you can
stick an ammeter in there as well - even better). That way you would
know if its really the pump or the wiring.

Just tried that on one of the back-up pumps. Seems OK.

If its looking like the wiring, then disconnecting from the boiler etc
and buzzing out (possibly testing with an insulation resistance meter)
would probably be my next step.

Yes. I am reluctant to disconnect the choc block wiring as it looks like
the apprentice had a bad day. 2C+E with sleeving and dogs breakfast
style. I suppose I could label stuff as it comes off. My Megger takes a
PP9 battery so unlikely to work off the shelf.

If the original pump tests OK it has to be a wiring:-(

Probably quicker to renew than attempt a repair.



--
Tim Lamb

In message , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , John
Rumm writes
On 09/11/2014 09:49, Tim Lamb wrote:

Of course hidden cable runs and Mice remain a consideration!

Powering up the pump on a bit of flex connected to a plug (with 3A)
fuse may either eliminate or direct suspicion in this case. (if you
can stick an ammeter in there as well - even better). That way you
would know if its really the pump or the wiring.

Just tried that on one of the back-up pumps. Seems OK.


Later news.... the original Grundfoss Alpha 2 pump trips out the RCD on
my workshop supply.

In view of the consequential cost, I might revert to a simple 3 speed
pump and ditch the adaptive electronics.

If its looking like the wiring, then disconnecting from the boiler etc
and buzzing out (possibly testing with an insulation resistance meter)
would probably be my next step.

Yes. I am reluctant to disconnect the choc block wiring as it looks
like the apprentice had a bad day. 2C+E with sleeving and dogs
breakfast style. I suppose I could label stuff as it comes off. My
Megger takes a PP9 battery so unlikely to work off the shelf.

If the original pump tests OK it has to be a wiring:-(

Probably quicker to renew than attempt a repair.

I'll spend the evening doing a more careful check of the wiring and
certainly *buzz* test the two black cables.

Meanwhile Google for Alpha 2 complaints!




--
Tim Lamb

On 09/11/2014 15:18, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , John

Just tried that on one of the back-up pumps. Seems OK.

That's a shame ;-)

If its looking like the wiring, then disconnecting from the boiler etc
and buzzing out (possibly testing with an insulation resistance meter)
would probably be my next step.

Yes. I am reluctant to disconnect the choc block wiring as it looks like
the apprentice had a bad day. 2C+E with sleeving and dogs breakfast
style. I suppose I could label stuff as it comes off. My Megger takes a
PP9 battery so unlikely to work off the shelf.

Looking at the pump feed first would seem to be sensible.


If the original pump tests OK it has to be a wiring:-(

Probably quicker to renew than attempt a repair.

All the normal wiring plans can be found he

wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Central_Heating_Controls_and_Zonin g



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 09/11/2014 15:18, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , John

Just tried that on one of the back-up pumps. Seems OK.

That's a shame ;-)

If its looking like the wiring, then disconnecting from the boiler etc
and buzzing out (possibly testing with an insulation resistance meter)
would probably be my next step.

Yes. I am reluctant to disconnect the choc block wiring as it looks like
the apprentice had a bad day. 2C+E with sleeving and dogs breakfast
style. I suppose I could label stuff as it comes off. My Megger takes a
PP9 battery so unlikely to work off the shelf.

Looking at the pump feed first would seem to be sensible.


If the original pump tests OK it has to be a wiring:-(

Probably quicker to renew than attempt a repair.

All the normal wiring plans can be found he

wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Central_Heating_Controls_and_Zonin g

OK John, found them.

My mistake was in disconnecting all the incoming connections to the
boiler when fault finding. By re-connecting with normal colour
convention, I put 230V on the boiler N and N on the line. Whether the
boiler internals survive this sort of treatment is unknown to me.

For reasons only known to the original plumber, the whole system is
reverse polarised. Sadly, the fused spur was clearly connected prior to
installing the boiler housing and the worktop. Getting access to
re-connect properly is going to be a pig and my brain can't handle fault
finding blue cable running 230V!

The original fault was definitely the pump (some sort of earth leakage).
New pump installed now but reverting to the original plumber polarities
does not bring on the boiler.

Is there a safe connection I can try to test the boiler operation?

If I have to hurry over to Watford for a recon circuit board, I'd rather
do it today than after a tedious rewire!




--
Tim Lamb

In message , Tim Lamb
writes
In message , John
Rumm writes

All the normal wiring plans can be found he

wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Central_Heating_Controls_and_Zonin g

OK John, found them.

My mistake was in disconnecting all the incoming connections to the
boiler when fault finding. By re-connecting with normal colour
convention, I put 230V on the boiler N and N on the line. Whether the
boiler internals survive this sort of treatment is unknown to me.

For reasons only known to the original plumber, the whole system is
reverse polarised. Sadly, the fused spur was clearly connected prior to
installing the boiler housing and the worktop. Getting access to
re-connect properly is going to be a pig and my brain can't handle
fault finding blue cable running 230V!

The original fault was definitely the pump (some sort of earth
leakage). New pump installed now but reverting to the original plumber
polarities does not bring on the boiler.

Is there a safe connection I can try to test the boiler operation?

OK. Scrub that. Linking live to boiler SWL brings on the boiler!

If I have to hurry over to Watford for a recon circuit board, I'd
rather do it today than after a tedious rewire!

--
Tim Lamb

On 11/11/2014 09:56, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , John
Rumm writes
On 09/11/2014 15:18, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , John

Just tried that on one of the back-up pumps. Seems OK.

That's a shame ;-)

If its looking like the wiring, then disconnecting from the boiler etc
and buzzing out (possibly testing with an insulation resistance meter)
would probably be my next step.

Yes. I am reluctant to disconnect the choc block wiring as it looks like
the apprentice had a bad day. 2C+E with sleeving and dogs breakfast
style. I suppose I could label stuff as it comes off. My Megger takes a
PP9 battery so unlikely to work off the shelf.

Looking at the pump feed first would seem to be sensible.


If the original pump tests OK it has to be a wiring:-(

Probably quicker to renew than attempt a repair.

All the normal wiring plans can be found he

wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Central_Heating_Controls_and_Zonin g

OK John, found them.

My mistake was in disconnecting all the incoming connections to the
boiler when fault finding. By re-connecting with normal colour
convention, I put 230V on the boiler N and N on the line. Whether the
boiler internals survive this sort of treatment is unknown to me.

Depending on which contacts we are talking about - you may get away with
it ;-)

For reasons only known to the original plumber, the whole system is
reverse polarised. Sadly, the fused spur was clearly connected prior to
installing the boiler housing and the worktop. Getting access to
re-connect properly is going to be a pig and my brain can't handle fault
finding blue cable running 230V!

Not exactly conducive to safe working going forward either...

The original fault was definitely the pump (some sort of earth leakage).
New pump installed now but reverting to the original plumber polarities
does not bring on the boiler.

Is there a safe connection I can try to test the boiler operation?

Normally if you connect a loopback wire between the stat inputs on the
boiler, it will run whenever powered on.

If I have to hurry over to Watford for a recon circuit board, I'd rather
do it today than after a tedious rewire!

;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 09/11/2014 09:49, Tim Lamb wrote:

I have the *S* plan circuit diagram (wiki.diyfaq....) which largely
agrees with what I am finding. Is there another diagram which would
explain the two *pump* connections at the boiler? My system uses the
bathroom radiators for bypass purposes so the pump runs on after the
heat call is satisfied.

I junked my 1991 60e very recently, not because it had finally given up
the ghost, but as part of a major reworking of my house. Unfortunately
the installation instructions went out with last week's recycling and my
useless memory is of no help. However the electrical bits from the
boiler are still in a heap in the corner of the kitchen and I can't see
anything there that looks like an alternative pump connection. The
internal connections on the boiler connection block go:

(Pump) Live, neutral, Earth (Mains) switched live, neutral, live.

Of course the 100e might have been a bit more elaborate but without the
destructions I just don't know.

Sorry I can't be more help.

--
Roger Chapman

In message , Roger Chapman
writes
On 09/11/2014 09:49, Tim Lamb wrote:

I have the *S* plan circuit diagram (wiki.diyfaq....) which largely
agrees with what I am finding. Is there another diagram which would
explain the two *pump* connections at the boiler? My system uses the
bathroom radiators for bypass purposes so the pump runs on after the
heat call is satisfied.

I junked my 1991 60e very recently, not because it had finally given up
the ghost, but as part of a major reworking of my house. Unfortunately
the installation instructions went out with last week's recycling and
my useless memory is of no help. However the electrical bits from the
boiler are still in a heap in the corner of the kitchen and I can't see
anything there that looks like an alternative pump connection. The
internal connections on the boiler connection block go:

(Pump) Live, neutral, Earth (Mains) switched live, neutral, live.

Ah! That might eliminate one possible error. My first two wires are
black back to the fused spur back box where they join 2+E for the run up
to the control box and pump.

Of course the 100e might have been a bit more elaborate but without the
destructions I just don't know.

I have the installation book which just refers to those two as *Pump*.
The others are as you say.

Sorry I can't be more help.


--
Tim Lamb