On 17/10/2014 17:32, "Nightjar \"cpb\""@ insert my surname here wrote:

Interesting that they have to extract CO2, to prevent it freezing in
storage. In the long term, it might even extract more CO2 from the
atmosphere than the concrete for the power station created.

Then what do you do with that CO2?

--
Rod

On 17/10/2014 18:34, Bod wrote:
On 17/10/2014 18:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
Even so you're not comparing like for like. And a modern condensing
boiler must have saved you a fortune in gas bills over a back boiler
type - which was about the most inefficient around.

I removed the back boiler immediately on moving in and I did say earlier
that I deliberately didn't choose a condensing boiler. They are more
expensive to buy and are notorious for having a much shorter life.

But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the system
for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.
Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html

Yes, and its probably worth a little analysis and rebuttal... since
while plausible, and in most places at least based on (partial) truths,
it does seem to be pushing an agenda (daily wail - never!).

Firstly, the initial point about breakdowns from freezing condensate
drains is entirely the fault of BG and their ilk ignoring the
manufacturers instructions for the protection of the condensate drain.
Read any of the manuals, and they are usually most explicit about how
one should route and protect the drain from freezing. Many of these
boilers were fitted in attic spaces and the condensate drain run through
small diameter pipe in unheated spaces - set to discharge into gutter or
onto a roof surface etc.

The part about return temperatures is also partly true - you do get the
better gains in efficiency at lower return temperatures. And indeed if
installing a system from new, one would tend toward higher output rads
to allow this efficiency gain to work for as much of the year as
possible. However it is ignoring other relevant information. Firstly
modern boilers are modulating. They will adapt their output to match the
demand and don't need to run flat out all the time. This enables them to
maintain condensing efficiency gains for much longer periods of the
year, even where the rads are undersized. Secondly, even at higher
return temperatures, you still get better efficiency from the HE since
with a conventional boiler the HE needed to be limited in size so as to
prevent the possibility of condensation as much as possible.

With regard to condensate corroding the boiler, yes on older designs
adapted from non condensers by adding secondary condensers it was a
problem. On modern designs with ali and stainless HEs, and down or
radial firing burners etc it does not seem to be an issue.

The point about the economic sense in scrapping a working boiler however
is valid. You are unlikely to recoup the cost unless you have a high gas
bill in the first place. This however does not seem to be a relevant
criticism of the technology itself.

The £2000 for "one of the better ones" claim is out by a factor of 2
really - although that article is a few years old now.

Lastly people are very fond of comparing cast iron lump boilers with
natural draught flues to a modern condenser, which is the wrong
comparison since the cast iron lump boiler is not the predecessor of the
condenser, and not the boiler you could have bought as an alternative
anyway. One ought to be making comparisons with other modern forced
induction boilers stuffed full of electronics etc.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Bod wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the system
for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html

Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the best
price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4 years. And
the previous boiler and controls were by no means primitive.

--
*A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the system
for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html

Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the best
price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4 years. And
the previous boiler and controls were by no means primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the system
for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html


Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the best
price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4 years. And
the previous boiler and controls were by no means primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

On 17/10/2014 23:39, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Huge
wrote:

On 2014-10-17, newshound wrote:


Reporting in Lefty News, as well.

I *like* Lefty News.

I don't. It's the only paper I won't pick up (well, that and the Daily
Bigot^WMail) if someone leaves one on the train. Reading the Grauniad is
bad for my blood pressure.

+1


What do you think of UKIP?

:-)

On 17/10/2014 10:56, Bod wrote:
On 17/10/2014 10:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Cap wrote:
It's probably the cheapest in the same way modern CH boilers are the
cheapest, if you ignore maintenance, faults and poor life.

You make it sound like all non condensing boilers never gave problems and
had a long life. This is not so. Low end boilers have always been a
source
of problems.

Hmm! I installed what you would call a low end boiler, we sold the
house 28 years after the install and that boiler (Ideal WRS40) was still
working 100%. All that ever went wrong in that period was about 6
thermocouples which cost about a fiver each and 10 minutes to change
also 2 pump changes. I installed a Combi in this house 10 years ago and
don't expect it to last more than 15 years or so.
Combis are always breaking down and are generally MUCH more expensive to
fix.

My view of Combis is similar to the NGs view of 'Saniflo's, but not
comparing like for like. I'd expect a quality "condensing" to last as
well as a cast iron Ideal type.

In article ,
Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the
system for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html


Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

--
*Funny, I don't remember being absent minded.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/10/2014 18:43, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/10/2014 11:18, charles wrote:

It isn't so much "combi" as "condensing" that seems to make them
unreliable.

Years ago perhaps - can't see why a modern condensor should be any less
reliable than a similarly integrated and controlled conventional boiler.


Yep. Condensing boilers got a bad name when they first came out because
they had fanned flues at a time when most "conventional" boilers didn't.
That added a fair bit of relatively untried complexity.

After a few years, all the non-condensing ones had fanned flues too, so
the reliability advantage more-or-less disappeared. By that time though,
condensing boilers had a reputation that many people cling to even today.

Cheers,

Colin.

On 18/10/2014 09:55, newshound wrote:
On 17/10/2014 10:56, Bod wrote:
On 17/10/2014 10:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Cap wrote:
It's probably the cheapest in the same way modern CH boilers are the
cheapest, if you ignore maintenance, faults and poor life.

You make it sound like all non condensing boilers never gave problems
and
had a long life. This is not so. Low end boilers have always been a
source
of problems.

Hmm! I installed what you would call a low end boiler, we sold the
house 28 years after the install and that boiler (Ideal WRS40) was still
working 100%. All that ever went wrong in that period was about 6
thermocouples which cost about a fiver each and 10 minutes to change
also 2 pump changes. I installed a Combi in this house 10 years ago and
don't expect it to last more than 15 years or so.
Combis are always breaking down and are generally MUCH more expensive to
fix.

My view of Combis is similar to the NGs view of 'Saniflo's, but not
comparing like for like. I'd expect a quality "condensing" to last as
well as a cast iron Ideal type.

I beg to differ.
As for saving on the cost of gas. Our yearly gas bills are just under
£400 per year for CH and hot water plus cooking. I can't see me saving
much more by installing a condensing boiler. Our last bill(summer) was £23.

In article , Bod
wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Bod
wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the
system for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html


Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

You don't need that for working on gas appliances in your own property.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 18/10/2014 10:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the
system for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html


Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

I only asked because it is technically against the law if you aren't
qualified.
This *may* invalidate any insurance payout if a fire or flood is caused
by a boiler fault and you haven't got the installers Gas Safe proof of
installing the boiler.
You know that insurance companies will dig deep to find a way to pay
out, especially on a large claim.


http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/adv...tificates.aspx

On 18/10/2014 10:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

Because you seem to be claiming to have "self installed" a gas
appliance, which is illegal unless you are a registered gas fitter. (Now
Gas Safe, was Corgi).

Of course, it *could* just have been sloppy phrasing...

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 18/10/2014 11:05, charles wrote:
In article , Bod
wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Bod
wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the
system for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html


Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

You don't need that for working on gas appliances in your own property.

Yes you do

http://www.uswitch.com/boilers/guides/gas-safety/

2. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered.
It is against the law for anyone to do work on gas appliances in the
United Kingdom, Isle of Man or Guernsey unless they are on the Gas Safe
Register. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered before
you let them work in your home on the Gas Safe Register website or by
calling 0800 408 5500.

"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...

On 17/10/2014 23:39, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Huge
wrote:

On 2014-10-17, newshound wrote:


Reporting in Lefty News, as well.

I *like* Lefty News.

I don't. It's the only paper I won't pick up (well, that and the Daily
Bigot^WMail) if someone leaves one on the train. Reading the Grauniad is
bad for my blood pressure.

+1


What do you think of UKIP?

It's not a newspaper.

On 17/10/2014 20:08, polygonum wrote:
On 17/10/2014 17:32, "Nightjar \"cpb\""@ insert my surname here wrote:

Interesting that they have to extract CO2, to prevent it freezing in
storage. In the long term, it might even extract more CO2 from the
atmosphere than the concrete for the power station created.

Then what do you do with that CO2?

Keep it solid and use it as a cold reservoir, to help with the air
liquefaction process, fill fire extinguishers, pressurize beer kegs, use
it in various chemical processes, decaffeinate coffee, use for dry
cleaning, pump into oil wells, to improve the extraction rate,
bio-transform it into fuel and quite a number of other things besides.
It is a very useful chemical to have.

--
Colin Bignell

On 17/10/2014 19:17, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:55:50 +0100, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insert my
surname here wrote:

On 17/10/2014 18:19, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar "cpb"@" "insert my surname here wrote in message
...
On 16/10/2014 19:56, harryagain wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...=EMCENVEML1631


A report by a consultancy that specialises in promoting renewable energy
says that it is cheapest. What a surprise. However, it is noteworthy that,
even after factoring in as many intangibles as possible, the report still
can't make it cheaper than nuclear power.

Nope.Cheaper than nuclear too.


From the article you provided a link to:

'Nuclear power, offshore wind and solar energy are all comparably
inexpensive generators, at roughly €125 per MW/h.'

And Harry keeps telling us how expensive nuclear power is!

I do sometimes wonder why he posts links to articles that it is obvious
he has not read properly, if at all.

--
Colin Bignell

On 18/10/2014 11:29, Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote:
On 17/10/2014 19:17, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 18:55:50 +0100, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insert my
'Nuclear power, offshore wind and solar energy are all comparably
inexpensive generators, at roughly €125 per MW/h.'

And Harry keeps telling us how expensive nuclear power is!

I do sometimes wonder why he posts links to articles that it is obvious
he has not read properly, if at all.

Because he can't read anything smaller than a HEADLINE!!!?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 18/10/2014 11:50, Huge wrote:
On 2014-10-18, Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 10:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the
system for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html


Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

I only asked because it is technically against the law if you aren't
qualified.

No it isn't.


Cite?

On 18/10/2014 11:51, Huge wrote:
On 2014-10-18, John Williamson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 10:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

Because you seem to be claiming to have "self installed" a gas
appliance, which is illegal unless you are a registered gas fitter. (Now
Gas Safe, was Corgi).

Of course, it *could* just have been sloppy phrasing...

Or you could be wrong. Which you are.



Illegal gas fitters can put your life at risk - Gas Safe Register

http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/lea...an_put_yo.aspx

"If your gas fitter is not Gas Safe registered then they are illegal. If
your gas engineer is qualified and registered to do gas work in your
home they will be able to ..."

"It is against the law for anyone to do work on gas appliances in the
United Kingdom, Isle of Man or Guernsey unless they are Gas Safe
registered."

"If you think someone is working on gas illegally, report them to us and
we will investigate."

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 10:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

Because you seem to be claiming to have "self installed" a gas
appliance, which is illegal unless you are a registered gas fitter. (Now
Gas Safe, was Corgi).

No it is NOT. It is illegal to fit a boiler for someone else, but you may
do it in your own home. I have checked this with a registered gas fitter.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In article , Bod
scribeth thus
On 18/10/2014 11:05, charles wrote:
In article , Bod
wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Bod
wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the
system for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...re-condensing-
boilers-a-waste-of-money.html


Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

You don't need that for working on gas appliances in your own property.

Yes you do

http://www.uswitch.com/boilers/guides/gas-safety/

2. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered.
It is against the law for anyone to do work on gas appliances in the
United Kingdom, Isle of Man or Guernsey unless they are on the Gas Safe
Register. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered before
you let them work in your home on the Gas Safe Register website or by
calling 0800 408 5500.


You like many other's miss out the bit about charging them for it, doing
it for yourself is another matter so sez my Gas safe friend who's been
the in the bizz for a very long time....
--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
Bod wrote:
So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

I only asked because it is technically against the law if you aren't
qualified.

No it's not. You need to be competent to work on the gas supply in your
own home and I am.

This *may* invalidate any insurance payout if a fire or flood is caused
by a boiler fault and you haven't got the installers Gas Safe proof of
installing the boiler.

Far less chance of fire or flood when installed by a *competent* DIYer in
his own home. They tend to take far more care than many pros.

You know that insurance companies will dig deep to find a way to pay
out, especially on a large claim.

I'll have to print off a gas safe certificate then. Be just as useful as a
real one.


http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/adv...tificates.aspx

You really must stop believing every word you read on that sort of site.

--
*WHERE DO FOREST RANGERS GO TO "GET AWAY FROM IT ALL?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

Because you seem to be claiming to have "self installed" a gas
appliance, which is illegal unless you are a registered gas fitter. (Now
Gas Safe, was Corgi).

You too are wrong.

--
*If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/10/2014 11:08, John Williamson wrote:

Because you seem to be claiming to have "self installed" a gas
appliance, which is illegal unless you are a registered gas fitter. (Now
Gas Safe, was Corgi).

I'm not surprised that Bod got this wrong, but you're generally more
competent.

You're wrong. This has been discussed many times on here.

On 18/10/2014 12:58, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Bod
scribeth thus
On 18/10/2014 11:05, charles wrote:
In article , Bod
wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Bod
wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the
system for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...re-condensing-
boilers-a-waste-of-money.html


Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

You don't need that for working on gas appliances in your own property.

Yes you do

http://www.uswitch.com/boilers/guides/gas-safety/

2. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered.
It is against the law for anyone to do work on gas appliances in the
United Kingdom, Isle of Man or Guernsey unless they are on the Gas Safe
Register. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered before
you let them work in your home on the Gas Safe Register website or by
calling 0800 408 5500.


You like many other's miss out the bit about charging them for it, doing
it for yourself is another matter so sez my Gas safe friend who's been
the in the bizz for a very long time....

If you do it yourself, you should let a Gas Safe engineer to do the gas
connection and the flue plus set the gas rate etc to cover your back if
nothing else.

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 18/10/2014 11:08, John Williamson wrote:

Because you seem to be claiming to have "self installed" a gas
appliance, which is illegal unless you are a registered gas fitter. (Now
Gas Safe, was Corgi).

I'm not surprised that Bod got this wrong, but you're generally more
competent.

You're wrong. This has been discussed many times on here.

My next door neighbour (an elderly widow) was told by a gas safe fitter -
who was servicing her multi-point - that only a gas safe fitter could
install a new cooker for her. And her cooker is electric...

--
*I don't feel old. I don't feel anything until noon. Then it's time for my nap.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/10/2014 14:18, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

I only asked because it is technically against the law if you aren't
qualified.

No it's not. You need to be competent to work on the gas supply in your
own home and I am.

This *may* invalidate any insurance payout if a fire or flood is caused
by a boiler fault and you haven't got the installers Gas Safe proof of
installing the boiler.

Far less chance of fire or flood when installed by a *competent* DIYer in
his own home. They tend to take far more care than many pros.

You know that insurance companies will dig deep to find a way to pay
out, especially on a large claim.

I'll have to print off a gas safe certificate then. Be just as useful as a
real one.


http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/adv...tificates.aspx

You really must stop believing every word you read on that sort of site.

I have my own experiences to back their claims up.

So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

You don't need that for working on gas appliances in your own property.

Yes you do

http://www.uswitch.com/boilers/guides/gas-safety/

2. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered.
It is against the law for anyone to do work on gas appliances in the
United Kingdom, Isle of Man or Guernsey unless they are on the Gas Safe
Register. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered before
you let them work in your home on the Gas Safe Register website or by
calling 0800 408 5500.


You like many other's miss out the bit about charging them for it, doing
it for yourself is another matter so sez my Gas safe friend who's been
the in the bizz for a very long time....

If you do it yourself, you should let a Gas Safe engineer to do the gas
connection and the flue plus set the gas rate etc to cover your back if
nothing else.


Why?...

--
Tony Sayer

On 18/10/2014 15:51, tony sayer wrote:
So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

You don't need that for working on gas appliances in your own property.

Yes you do

http://www.uswitch.com/boilers/guides/gas-safety/

2. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered.
It is against the law for anyone to do work on gas appliances in the
United Kingdom, Isle of Man or Guernsey unless they are on the Gas Safe
Register. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered before
you let them work in your home on the Gas Safe Register website or by
calling 0800 408 5500.


You like many other's miss out the bit about charging them for it, doing
it for yourself is another matter so sez my Gas safe friend who's been
the in the bizz for a very long time....

If you do it yourself, you should let a Gas Safe engineer to do the gas
connection and the flue plus set the gas rate etc to cover your back if
nothing else.


Why?...

Because if you let the Gas Safe engineer do those things and let him
commission it, you can get the Gas Safe certificate and have peace of
mind as well. It is important to keep this certificate as it may be
needed if you sell your home or if you choose to remortgage. The
certificate belongs with the property so if you sell your home then the
certificate will need to be passed on to the next owner.l.

In article ,
Bod wrote:
If you do it yourself, you should let a Gas Safe engineer to do the gas
connection and the flue plus set the gas rate etc to cover your back if
nothing else.

Out of interest, why do you think a competently made gas connection is any
more likely to leak than a water one as regards DIY? Or more difficult to
check for leaks?

--
*A dog's not just for Christmas, it's alright on a Friday night too*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bod wrote:
If you do it yourself, you should let a Gas Safe engineer to do the gas
connection and the flue plus set the gas rate etc to cover your back if
nothing else.


Why?...

Because if you let the Gas Safe engineer do those things and let him
commission it, you can get the Gas Safe certificate and have peace of
mind as well.

And the chances are he'll charge a ridiculous amount for this - if you can
find one willing to do so. It is one of these things that has no place in
the private sector. Talk about a licence to print money.

It is important to keep this certificate as it may be
needed if you sell your home or if you choose to remortgage. The
certificate belongs with the property so if you sell your home then the
certificate will need to be passed on to the next owner.l.

Every survey I've ever seen is adamant about having such things checked
before buying. A bit of paper means zilch.

--
*I yell because I care

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/10/2014 16:32, Bod wrote:

Because if you let the Gas Safe engineer do those things and let him
commission it, you can get the Gas Safe certificate and have peace of
mind as well. It is important to keep this certificate as it may be
needed if you sell your home or if you choose to remortgage. The
certificate belongs with the property so if you sell your home then the
certificate will need to be passed on to the next owner.l.

There's been plenty of tales on this group of people responding to the
buyers requests for certificates etc with "No" and no problems resulting.

On 18/10/2014 07:10, Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the
system
for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html



Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best
price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4 years. And
the previous boiler and controls were by no means primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

No. Why do you ask?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , Bod
scribeth thus
On 18/10/2014 15:51, tony sayer wrote:
So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

You don't need that for working on gas appliances in your own property.

Yes you do

http://www.uswitch.com/boilers/guides/gas-safety/

2. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered.
It is against the law for anyone to do work on gas appliances in the
United Kingdom, Isle of Man or Guernsey unless they are on the Gas Safe
Register. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered before
you let them work in your home on the Gas Safe Register website or by
calling 0800 408 5500.


You like many other's miss out the bit about charging them for it, doing
it for yourself is another matter so sez my Gas safe friend who's been
the in the bizz for a very long time....

If you do it yourself, you should let a Gas Safe engineer to do the gas
connection and the flue plus set the gas rate etc to cover your back if
nothing else.


Why?...

Because if you let the Gas Safe engineer do those things and let him
commission it, you can get the Gas Safe certificate and have peace of
mind as well.

If I couldn't install test and commission it I wouldn't have bothered in
the first place thanks..

It is important to keep this certificate as it may be
needed if you sell your home or if you choose to remortgage.

Sold and bought and re mortgaged don't remembering a Gas cert coming
into it at anytime..

The
certificate belongs with the property so if you sell your home then the
certificate will need to be passed on to the next owner.l.

And how long might they last for, a year like a rented property one?.
--
Tony Sayer

On 18/10/2014 11:08, Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 10:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the
system for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html



Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

I only asked because it is technically against the law if you aren't
qualified.

If you look at the actual legislation:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...ulation/3/made

You will note that the only requirement for someone working on gas
appliances not for profit or for an employer etc is that they are
competent.

While having passed the relevant exams etc would be one way of
demonstrating competence, its not the only way.

(note also the law does not specify a definition of competence)

This *may* invalidate any insurance payout if a fire or flood is caused
by a boiler fault and you haven't got the installers Gas Safe proof of
installing the boiler.

Most people don't have those anyway - i.e. they get lost etc.

You know that insurance companies will dig deep to find a way to pay
out, especially on a large claim.

http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/adv...tificates.aspx

Building regs compliance (in particular the sections on energy
efficiency) are separate and distinct from any legislation regarding the
gas installation itself. You can self install and submit a building
notice if you want.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/10/2014 11:58, Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 11:51, Huge wrote:
On 2014-10-18, John Williamson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 10:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4
years. And the previous boiler and controls were by no means
primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

Why would I need one?

Because you seem to be claiming to have "self installed" a gas
appliance, which is illegal unless you are a registered gas fitter. (Now
Gas Safe, was Corgi).

Of course, it *could* just have been sloppy phrasing...

Or you could be wrong. Which you are.



Illegal gas fitters can put your life at risk - Gas Safe Register

as can legal ones

http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/lea...an_put_yo.aspx

"If your gas fitter is not Gas Safe registered then they are illegal.

True, The law requires people carrying on the business of gas fitting to
be registered.

Think through the situation where a profession gas fitter who works for
a gas safe registered firm, fits his/her own boiler. Would that be legal?

The answer is yes, because even if they are working an a private
capacity and hence not covered by their employers registration, they are
still competent.

"It is against the law for anyone to do work on gas appliances in the
United Kingdom, Isle of Man or Guernsey unless they are Gas Safe
registered."

Not what the law actually says - see my link to the legislation in
question.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/10/2014 18:28, Clive George wrote:
On 18/10/2014 16:32, Bod wrote:

Because if you let the Gas Safe engineer do those things and let him
commission it, you can get the Gas Safe certificate and have peace of
mind as well. It is important to keep this certificate as it may be
needed if you sell your home or if you choose to remortgage. The
certificate belongs with the property so if you sell your home then the
certificate will need to be passed on to the next owner.l.

There's been plenty of tales on this group of people responding to the
buyers requests for certificates etc with "No" and no problems resulting.


Oh.

On 18/10/2014 19:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 07:10, Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 01:53, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/10/2014 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bod wrote:
But use less gas? You need to consider the overall costs of the
system
for a like for like performance.

You've been taken in by all the hype.

I've not. Sounds like you have, though.

Have a read of this:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...-of-money.html




Won't load here.

However, my top of the range self installed condenser (bought at the
best
price by shopping around) paid for itself in approximately 4 years.
And
the previous boiler and controls were by no means primitive.

I estimate mine is saving about £300 - £400 a year. So should pay for
itself in about another 6 months to a year.


So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

No. Why do you ask?


You say it saves you £300 to £400 per year, but our whole years gas
consumption is just shy of £400.
What boiler did you say you had?

On 18/10/2014 16:32, Bod wrote:
On 18/10/2014 15:51, tony sayer wrote:
So you qualified and have a Gas Safe certificate then?

You don't need that for working on gas appliances in your own
property.

Yes you do

http://www.uswitch.com/boilers/guides/gas-safety/

2. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered.
It is against the law for anyone to do work on gas appliances in the
United Kingdom, Isle of Man or Guernsey unless they are on the Gas
Safe
Register. Always check that an engineer is Gas Safe registered before
you let them work in your home on the Gas Safe Register website or by
calling 0800 408 5500.


You like many other's miss out the bit about charging them for it,
doing
it for yourself is another matter so sez my Gas safe friend who's been
the in the bizz for a very long time....

If you do it yourself, you should let a Gas Safe engineer to do the gas
connection and the flue plus set the gas rate etc to cover your back if
nothing else.


Why?...

Because if you let the Gas Safe engineer do those things and let him
commission it, you can get the Gas Safe certificate and have peace of
mind as well.

What would give _you_ the most confidence?:

1) Gas fitter says he has checked the gas connection and its ok, or

2) You have calculated the pressure drop allowances for the pipework
yourself and specified the required diameters to achieve the required
1 mBar drop at the boiler. You have tested the existing installation for
gas soundness and for main gas valve "let by" prior to installation, and
again after completion of work. You have even tested the test nipple on
the meter with leak detector after replacing the test screw.
You have commissioned the boiler fully in accordance with the makers
instructions, and measured the flue gases with your own calibrated
equipment. You have checked the gas rate and dynamic pressure drop under
a range of boiler loads. You remember and have checked that every
required flue retaining screw has been fitted, that the outlet is the
required distance from building openings etc.

Personally I find 2 reassuring, while 1 needs to be taken on trust and
and lots of assumptions made.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/