I also think ecigs should be prescription only, we don't want people
getting hooked on them instead of cigs unless they are already hooked on
cigs.


I don't like the sound of "we". You me "you" I think

On 11/08/2014 13:40, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

It is extremely odd that are lurid warnings about the possible side
effects of tobacco use on all those products, but none whatsoever with
alcohol.

The lurid warnings haver no effect and are a waste of time. At our
youth club, more than 50 years ago, they showed a film showing the
effects of tar and smoke on lungs and lung tissue. The kids who smoked
then continued to do so and when the YC leader asked if they'd stop,
they all said no.


OTOH I went to school in the '70s and on the notice board of the school
was a test tube dribbling tar into a saucer - the caption was "the tar
found in the lungs of an average smoker". This was enough to prevent me
and several of my friends from ever even trying cigarettes.

I cant find the exact poster via google but it was similar to this one

http://www.worldlungfoundation.org/h...15910/pid/6858



--
Chris

On 11/08/2014 15:11, Dennis@home wrote:
On 11/08/2014 07:30, RJH wrote:
On 10/08/2014 18:37, Mike Barnes wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/08/14 17:08, Mike Barnes wrote:
sports are generally regarded as beneficial to society. Smoking
isn't.

Generally regarded. But it is of immense benefit to society. The
taxes alone are billions. And the fact that smokers die quickly and
unequivocally means less NHS bills for the rest of us to pay.

Some would disagree.

http://ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_121.pdf

"Smoking is a health problem, the costs of which include sickness, pain,
grief and misery. But tobacco use also imposes a significant economic
burden on society. In addition to the direct medical costs of treating
tobacco-induced illnesses there are other indirect costs including loss
of productivity, fire damage and environmental harm from cigarette
litter and destructive farming practices. The total burden caused by
tobacco products more than outweighs any economic benefit from their
manufacture and sale."


Some! FFS, a decent source?!

And to add to other savings/non-spendings mentioned, curtailed pension
entitlements, which can find their way to the state.


Smokers like to use NHS costs, ignoring that the costs of providing
care, etc. isn't a part of the NHS and probably costs a lot more because
the NHS keeps smokers alive longer.

I'm not sure that smokers 'like' to do anything of the sort. But I'd
agree that many aspects of care parallel to treatment are often not
costed. Particularly family and friend carers.

--
Cheers, Rob

In article ,
Mike Barnes wrote:
Indeed. Which is why I'm in favour of these 'electronic' cigarettes.
(for those who already smoke) They should be a good way of dispensing
an instant 'hit' from nicotine with no side effects. And, of course,
safe for others in the vicinity.

What I don't like is the fact that they're made to *look* like
cigarettes. I haven't spend much time thinking about it but my gut
instinct tells me that can't be a good thing.

The one I use looks nothing like a cigarette.

--
*Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
Dennis@home wrote:
I also think ecigs should be prescription only, we don't want people
getting hooked on them instead of cigs unless they are already hooked on
cigs.

Plenty of drugs which are illegal - let alone prescription only. Yet are
easily obtainable. Bringing criminals into the supply chain which simply
makes things worse.

You can ban whatever you like by law. Enforcing it is a different matter.
A law which isn't or can't be enforced is a bad law.

--
*Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
The most positive thing that the government could do would be to ban
*all* cigarette and e-cigarette advertising, including product placement
and any use of smoking as plot elements in TV programmes and films, and
enforce a rule that all tobacco products be sold in the plainest
possible packaging with subtle messages on it such as "Smoking kills" or
"Smoking injures your children", and possibly pictures of diseased
lungs and hearts caused by smoking. I'd not energetically support one
proposal I've seen in a science fiction book that cigarettes, cigars
and such, as well as their smoke be removed from old movies, but it
might not be a terribly bad idea, if it could be done without otherwise
affecting the plot.

If all that would work, how come smoking cannabis is so popular?

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
On 12/08/2014 00:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
Someone with an "addictive personality" can get addicted to almost
anything, and it's not the same thing for all of them. I was just giving
some common examples. The effect is the same, with a poorly damped
reinforcement of a reward loop in the brain making the person want to do
the same thing over and over again.

Think it's rather more complicated than that.

Have we got space and time for quoting the entirety of the literature on
the subject? Or just time for the simplified "Lies to students" version?
Books have been written on addiction and the causes of it, and more than
a couple of papers have been written on the biochemical pathways by
which addiction occurs and is reinforced.

Snag is even the 'experts' disagree on the reasons for addiction - and
even more so on treatments for it.

--
*Taxation WITH representation ain't much fun, either.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article . com,
Dennis@home wrote:
I also think ecigs should be prescription only, we don't want people
getting hooked on them instead of cigs unless they are already
hooked on cigs.

Plenty of drugs which are illegal - let alone prescription only. Yet
are easily obtainable. Bringing criminals into the supply chain which
simply makes things worse.

You can ban whatever you like by law. Enforcing it is a different
matter. A law which isn't or can't be enforced is a bad law.

Yes. If you ban these things (drugs, cigs, prostitution), you just drive
them underground and put a smile on the crooks' faces.

Quite - think prohibition in the US. Yet governments never learn.

--
*Can atheists get insurance for acts of God? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 12/08/2014 13:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
Dennis@home wrote:
I also think ecigs should be prescription only, we don't want people
getting hooked on them instead of cigs unless they are already hooked on
cigs.

Plenty of drugs which are illegal - let alone prescription only. Yet are
easily obtainable. Bringing criminals into the supply chain which simply
makes things worse.

You can ban whatever you like by law. Enforcing it is a different matter.
A law which isn't or can't be enforced is a bad law.


It only makes them difficult to get to a few.
The rest can buy them without much trouble so there is no cash to be
made by crooks.

On 12/08/2014 12:23, RJH wrote:
On 11/08/2014 15:11, Dennis@home wrote:
On 11/08/2014 07:30, RJH wrote:
On 10/08/2014 18:37, Mike Barnes wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/08/14 17:08, Mike Barnes wrote:
sports are generally regarded as beneficial to society. Smoking
isn't.

Generally regarded. But it is of immense benefit to society. The
taxes alone are billions. And the fact that smokers die quickly and
unequivocally means less NHS bills for the rest of us to pay.

Some would disagree.

http://ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_121.pdf

"Smoking is a health problem, the costs of which include sickness,
pain,
grief and misery. But tobacco use also imposes a significant economic
burden on society. In addition to the direct medical costs of treating
tobacco-induced illnesses there are other indirect costs including loss
of productivity, fire damage and environmental harm from cigarette
litter and destructive farming practices. The total burden caused by
tobacco products more than outweighs any economic benefit from their
manufacture and sale."


Some! FFS, a decent source?!

And to add to other savings/non-spendings mentioned, curtailed pension
entitlements, which can find their way to the state.


Smokers like to use NHS costs, ignoring that the costs of providing
care, etc. isn't a part of the NHS and probably costs a lot more because
the NHS keeps smokers alive longer.

I'm not sure that smokers 'like' to do anything of the sort. But I'd
agree that many aspects of care parallel to treatment are often not
costed. Particularly family and friend carers.


Virtually none of the care is in the NHS figures.
It doesn't include unemployment benefits, disability benefits, care
provided by councils, social service care, etc.
About the only thing it includes is the cost of the heart bypasses,
amputation costs, some drugs, some hospice care for the ones that die in
agony .

in 1328268 20140812 092404 John Williamson wrote:
On 12/08/2014 08:56, Dennis@home wrote:
On 11/08/2014 23:18, John Williamson wrote:
Also, some people find it very easy to get addicted, and they can get
addicted to alcohol, gambling, tobacco or even pain. Those of us lucky
enough not to have this particular peculiarity in our brain chemistry
can't possibly fully understand the attraction of being addicted to
something.


You aren't addicted to nicotine before you start smoking, as I said you
would have to be stupid to start now or even in the last 30+ years when
the dangers were well known by all.

People are normally pushed into smoking at a young age by peer pressure.
If you refuse that first cigarette, you're a wimp. If you're that way
inclined, it will only take a few attempts to overcome the coughing and
get addicted to the hit of nicotine. If you're not, you won't keep it up.

Nicotine is a habit, not an addiction.

On 13/08/2014 07:45, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1328268 20140812 092404 John Williamson wrote:
On 12/08/2014 08:56, Dennis@home wrote:
On 11/08/2014 23:18, John Williamson wrote:
Also, some people find it very easy to get addicted, and they can get
addicted to alcohol, gambling, tobacco or even pain. Those of us lucky
enough not to have this particular peculiarity in our brain chemistry
can't possibly fully understand the attraction of being addicted to
something.


You aren't addicted to nicotine before you start smoking, as I said you
would have to be stupid to start now or even in the last 30+ years when
the dangers were well known by all.

People are normally pushed into smoking at a young age by peer pressure.
If you refuse that first cigarette, you're a wimp. If you're that way
inclined, it will only take a few attempts to overcome the coughing and
get addicted to the hit of nicotine. If you're not, you won't keep it up.

Nicotine is a habit, not an addiction.


On reflection I think you're right

In article ,
Bob Martin wrote:
People are normally pushed into smoking at a young age by peer
pressure. If you refuse that first cigarette, you're a wimp. If you're
that way inclined, it will only take a few attempts to overcome the
coughing and get addicted to the hit of nicotine. If you're not, you
won't keep it up.

Nicotine is a habit, not an addiction.

You need to learn about such things. Nicotine is more addictive than many
class A drugs.

--
*Welcome to **** Creek - sorry, we're out of paddles*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
stuart noble wrote:
People are normally pushed into smoking at a young age by peer
pressure. If you refuse that first cigarette, you're a wimp. If
you're that way inclined, it will only take a few attempts to
overcome the coughing and get addicted to the hit of nicotine. If
you're not, you won't keep it up.

Nicotine is a habit, not an addiction.


On reflection I think you're right

Then reflect more. Because you're wrong.

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/08/14 07:45, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1328268 20140812 092404 John Williamson wrote:
On 12/08/2014 08:56, Dennis@home wrote:
On 11/08/2014 23:18, John Williamson wrote:
Also, some people find it very easy to get addicted, and they can get
addicted to alcohol, gambling, tobacco or even pain. Those of us lucky
enough not to have this particular peculiarity in our brain chemistry
can't possibly fully understand the attraction of being addicted to
something.


You aren't addicted to nicotine before you start smoking, as I said you
would have to be stupid to start now or even in the last 30+ years when
the dangers were well known by all.

People are normally pushed into smoking at a young age by peer pressure.
If you refuse that first cigarette, you're a wimp. If you're that way
inclined, it will only take a few attempts to overcome the coughing and
get addicted to the hit of nicotine. If you're not, you won't keep it up.

Nicotine is a habit, not an addiction.

No it isnt


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 13/08/2014 11:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
You need to learn about such things. Nicotine is more addictive than many
class A drugs.

+1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotin...and_withdrawal

Andy

On 13/08/2014 08:05, stuart noble wrote:
On 13/08/2014 07:45, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1328268 20140812 092404 John Williamson
wrote:
On 12/08/2014 08:56, Dennis@home wrote:
On 11/08/2014 23:18, John Williamson wrote:
Also, some people find it very easy to get addicted, and they can get
addicted to alcohol, gambling, tobacco or even pain. Those of us lucky
enough not to have this particular peculiarity in our brain chemistry
can't possibly fully understand the attraction of being addicted to
something.


You aren't addicted to nicotine before you start smoking, as I said you
would have to be stupid to start now or even in the last 30+ years when
the dangers were well known by all.

People are normally pushed into smoking at a young age by peer pressure.
If you refuse that first cigarette, you're a wimp. If you're that way
inclined, it will only take a few attempts to overcome the coughing and
get addicted to the hit of nicotine. If you're not, you won't keep it
up.

Nicotine is a habit, not an addiction.


On reflection I think you're right

I think it's partly habit - that doing something with your hands sort of
thing. I soon got over that, though, when I gave up 6 years back. I'm
still addicted to nicotine though, and can't quite shake the nicotine
lozenges.

--
Cheers, Rob

In article ,
Bob Martin wrote:
People are normally pushed into smoking at a young age by peer pressure.
If you refuse that first cigarette, you're a wimp. If you're that way
inclined, it will only take a few attempts to overcome the coughing and
get addicted to the hit of nicotine. If you're not, you won't keep it up.

Nicotine is a habit, not an addiction.

If you're really interested, there are sort of two parts to addiction.

The 'physical' side. Withdrawal of the drugs produces real physical
symptoms. A hangover after drinking lots of alcohol being the most obvious
example. Hence 'the hair of the dog'.

The 'mental' side. If someone drinks excessively - or uses other mind
altering substances on a regular basis - the reasons why they do this have
to be addressed, or they will go back to using that drug, even after
stopping for long enough to get over the withdrawal symptoms.

--
*Few women admit their age; fewer men act it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
RJH wrote:
Nicotine is a habit, not an addiction.


On reflection I think you're right

I think it's partly habit - that doing something with your hands sort of
thing. I soon got over that, though, when I gave up 6 years back. I'm
still addicted to nicotine though, and can't quite shake the nicotine
lozenges.

Which would make nicotine the addiction, smoking cigarettes the habit.

--
*If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/08/2014 07:45, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1328268 20140812 092404 John Williamson wrote:
On 12/08/2014 08:56, Dennis@home wrote:
On 11/08/2014 23:18, John Williamson wrote:
Also, some people find it very easy to get addicted, and they can get
addicted to alcohol, gambling, tobacco or even pain. Those of us lucky
enough not to have this particular peculiarity in our brain chemistry
can't possibly fully understand the attraction of being addicted to
something.


You aren't addicted to nicotine before you start smoking, as I said you
would have to be stupid to start now or even in the last 30+ years when
the dangers were well known by all.

People are normally pushed into smoking at a young age by peer pressure.
If you refuse that first cigarette, you're a wimp. If you're that way
inclined, it will only take a few attempts to overcome the coughing and
get addicted to the hit of nicotine. If you're not, you won't keep it up.

Nicotine is a habit, not an addiction.


It is an addiction just like heroin and other drugs.
Don't try to make out it isn't.

Smoking may well become a habit too.
But to quit you first have to combat the addiction and then the habit
which may take longer.

This is especially true when a smoker tries to quit as their "friends"
don't like to see others doing better than they are and will try to make
it difficult for them to quit.
Smokers can be *******s, they don't care about themselves so they sure
don't care about others.

On 13/08/2014 15:59, Dennis@home wrote:
On 13/08/2014 07:45, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1328268 20140812 092404 John Williamson
wrote:
On 12/08/2014 08:56, Dennis@home wrote:
On 11/08/2014 23:18, John Williamson wrote:
Also, some people find it very easy to get addicted, and they can get
addicted to alcohol, gambling, tobacco or even pain. Those of us lucky
enough not to have this particular peculiarity in our brain chemistry
can't possibly fully understand the attraction of being addicted to
something.


You aren't addicted to nicotine before you start smoking, as I said you
would have to be stupid to start now or even in the last 30+ years when
the dangers were well known by all.

People are normally pushed into smoking at a young age by peer pressure.
If you refuse that first cigarette, you're a wimp. If you're that way
inclined, it will only take a few attempts to overcome the coughing and
get addicted to the hit of nicotine. If you're not, you won't keep it
up.

Nicotine is a habit, not an addiction.


It is an addiction just like heroin and other drugs.
Don't try to make out it isn't.

Smoking may well become a habit too.
But to quit you first have to combat the addiction and then the habit
which may take longer.

This is especially true when a smoker tries to quit as their "friends"
don't like to see others doing better than they are and will try to make
it difficult for them to quit.
Smokers can be *******s, they don't care about themselves so they sure
don't care about others.

Calling it an addiction means you'll never kick the .....habit