|
VW Generators
"Move over Golf, how about a VW home power plant?
Like its cars, can Germany's smart grid network of Volkswagen mini-generators win over Britain?" http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-plant-germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. -- Rod |
VW Generators
In message , polygonum
writes "Move over Golf, how about a VW home power plant? Like its cars, can Germany's smart grid network of Volkswagen mini-generators win over Britain?" http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-car-power-pla nt-germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. So why no mention of the running life of a gas powered piston engine and the replacement cost/routine maintenance? Also, what do they do with the *waste* heat in summer? 4-5 years? -- Tim Lamb |
VW Generators
On 14/06/2014 20:19, polygonum wrote:
"Move over Golf, how about a VW home power plant? Like its cars, can Germany's smart grid network of Volkswagen mini-generators win over Britain?" http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-plant-germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. "The system has the backing of the German government, which is pushing Lichtblick’s model – and a similar venture between Honda and meter maker Valliant – because it thinks switching to decentralised power units will make it possible to shut down its nuclear reactors by 2022." Steaming great dozy muppets. Lets take out zero co2 emission plant and shut it down in favour of a hydrocarbon based one even less efficient than any other we already have! About the only thing they have in their favour is they can be used to try and balance a grid made unstable by all the massively expensive and unreliable renewables. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
VW Generators
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... On 14/06/2014 20:19, polygonum wrote: "Move over Golf, how about a VW home power plant? Like its cars, can Germany's smart grid network of Volkswagen mini-generators win over Britain?" http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-plant-germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. "The system has the backing of the German government, which is pushing Lichtblick’s model – and a similar venture between Honda and meter maker Valliant – because it thinks switching to decentralised power units will make it possible to shut down its nuclear reactors by 2022." Steaming great dozy muppets. Lets take out zero co2 emission plant and shut it down in favour of a hydrocarbon based one even less efficient than any other we already have! About the only thing they have in their favour is they can be used to try and balance a grid made unstable by all the massively expensive and unreliable renewables. Your usual drivel. Still living in the Lala land of the past. You can't get your head around a new concept can you? This has been on the cards for years. They will only operate at times of peak demand and low electricity output. There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home. The idea works perfectly because home heat is needed in Winter when PV power output is down. All part of the Smart grid" system too. It will come to be the standard instead of gas boilers. Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. |
VW Generators
"Since May 2014, LichtBlick has been unable to offer any more 'ZuhauseKraftwerk' combined heat and power systems. LichtBlick had developed this innovative technology together with Volkswagen since 2009. Unfortunately, we were unable to reach an agreement with VW as to the commercial future of the business, something we would have really liked to have done."
Oh well, throw some more Brown coal in the boiler Manfred Jim K |
VW Generators
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 06:46:32 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote: "John Rumm" wrote in message ... On 14/06/2014 20:19, polygonum wrote: "Move over Golf, how about a VW home power plant? Like its cars, can Germany's smart grid network of Volkswagen mini-generators win over Britain?" http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-plant-germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. "The system has the backing of the German government, which is pushing Lichtblick’s model – and a similar venture between Honda and meter maker Valliant – because it thinks switching to decentralised power units will make it possible to shut down its nuclear reactors by 2022." Steaming great dozy muppets. Lets take out zero co2 emission plant and shut it down in favour of a hydrocarbon based one even less efficient than any other we already have! About the only thing they have in their favour is they can be used to try and balance a grid made unstable by all the massively expensive and unreliable renewables. Your usual drivel. Still living in the Lala land of the past. You can't get your head around a new concept can you? This has been on the cards for years. They will only operate at times of peak demand and low electricity output. There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home. The idea works perfectly because home heat is needed in Winter when PV power output is down. All part of the Smart grid" system too. It will come to be the standard instead of gas boilers. Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. You were doing so well (reasoned argument) until you spoilt it all in that last paragraph. It's true that the current crop of nuclear power stations have been cursed by the Cold War legacy but there remains the undeveloped LFTR technology, first looked at by the military over 40 years ago as a potential means of keeping a fleet of nuclear bombers aloft for weeks at a time until the penny dropped regarding ICBM technology refined from the V1 rocket program by Germany towards the end of WW2. I suggest you goggle LFTR before you discount nuclear fission power as the immediate solution to the world's energy crisis for the next 300 to 10000 years. -- J B Good |
VW Generators
On 15/06/14 12:47, Johny B Good wrote:
It's true that the current crop of nuclear power stations have been cursed by the Cold War legacy but there remains the undeveloped LFTR technology, first looked at by the military over 40 years ago as a potential means of keeping a fleet of nuclear bombers aloft for weeks at a time until the penny dropped regarding ICBM technology refined from the V1 rocket program by Germany towards the end of WW2. Harry was happy with his 41p or whatever FIT payments. Don't make him feel sad... |
VW Generators
n/13/golf-vw-car-power-plant-
germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. "The system has the backing of the German government, which is pushing Lichtblicks model €“ and a similar venture between Honda and meter maker Valliant €“ because it thinks switching to decentralised power units will make it possible to shut down its nuclear reactors by 2022." Steaming great dozy muppets. Lets take out zero co2 emission plant and shut it down in favour of a hydrocarbon based one even less efficient than any other we already have! About the only thing they have in their favour is they can be used to try and balance a grid made unstable by all the massively expensive and unreliable renewables. Your usual drivel. Still living in the Lala land of the past. You can't get your head around a new concept can you? This has been on the cards for years. They will only operate at times of peak demand and low electricity output. There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home. The idea works perfectly because home heat is needed in Winter when PV power output is down. All part of the Smart grid" system too. It will come to be the standard instead of gas boilers. Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. We can simply tell who wrote that without even looking at the author .... soo very predictable... -- Tony Sayer |
VW Generators
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 12:52:10 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote: On 15/06/14 12:47, Johny B Good wrote: It's true that the current crop of nuclear power stations have been cursed by the Cold War legacy but there remains the undeveloped LFTR technology, first looked at by the military over 40 years ago as a potential means of keeping a fleet of nuclear bombers aloft for weeks at a time until the penny dropped regarding ICBM technology refined from the V1 rocket program by Germany towards the end of WW2. Harry was happy with his 41p or whatever FIT payments. Don't make him feel sad... I had to google "FIT payments" (I'd seen it before but couldn't remember the context) and landed up on this page: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Getting-money-back/Cashback-Calculator Just out of interest, I tried the calculator using 'ballpark figures of 8KW generator head running an average of 8 hours a day during the 'heating season' to give a total annual generation figure of 11680 KWH which. at 75% export produced a total income and savings figure of £2,200! No wonder you urged me not to make Harry sad! However, since governments worldwide are unlikely to percieve nuclear as the new incredibly safer greener way to both power and save the planet for at least another decade or two, I don't think Harry has too much to worry about just yet. :-( In the meantime, micro CHP seems to be a 'No Brainer' solution to replacing a 25 years old CH/HW boiler that's come to its end of life. If I've interpreted that £2,200 figure correctly, I'd be looking at an effective ROI payback period of just one or two years. Just how much does a 2 litre petrol engine from a scrapyard cost these days? Honestly now, anyone got any idea? Also, more to the point, how much would an 8 or 10 KW genset head cost? -- J B Good |
VW Generators
In article , Johny B Good
scribeth thus On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 12:52:10 +0100, Tim Watts wrote: On 15/06/14 12:47, Johny B Good wrote: It's true that the current crop of nuclear power stations have been cursed by the Cold War legacy but there remains the undeveloped LFTR technology, first looked at by the military over 40 years ago as a potential means of keeping a fleet of nuclear bombers aloft for weeks at a time until the penny dropped regarding ICBM technology refined from the V1 rocket program by Germany towards the end of WW2. Harry was happy with his 41p or whatever FIT payments. Don't make him feel sad... I had to google "FIT payments" (I'd seen it before but couldn't remember the context) and landed up on this page: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...Getting-money- back/Cashback-Calculator Just out of interest, I tried the calculator using 'ballpark figures of 8KW generator head running an average of 8 hours a day during the 'heating season' to give a total annual generation figure of 11680 KWH which. at 75% export produced a total income and savings figure of £2,200! No wonder you urged me not to make Harry sad! However, since governments worldwide are unlikely to percieve nuclear as the new incredibly safer greener way to both power and save the planet for at least another decade or two, I don't think Harry has too much to worry about just yet. :-( In the meantime, micro CHP seems to be a 'No Brainer' solution to replacing a 25 years old CH/HW boiler that's come to its end of life. If I've interpreted that £2,200 figure correctly, I'd be looking at an effective ROI payback period of just one or two years. Just how much does a 2 litre petrol engine from a scrapyard cost these days? Prolly 300 to 600 odd quid in good nick.. Honestly now, anyone got any idea? Also, more to the point, how much would an 8 or 10 KW genset head cost? Anything from £1200 to £5K ... Mind you the generator might not be the one that you'd want to run 24/7 and the engine might be a tad more noisy that you'd like to run at home... There is an element of some sense in the idea but I reckon you'll still need a mains connection one way or the other.. -- Tony Sayer |
VW Generators
"tony sayer" wrote in message ... n/13/golf-vw-car-power-plant- germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. "The system has the backing of the German government, which is pushing Lichtblick's model - and a similar venture between Honda and meter maker Valliant - because it thinks switching to decentralised power units will make it possible to shut down its nuclear reactors by 2022." Steaming great dozy muppets. Lets take out zero co2 emission plant and shut it down in favour of a hydrocarbon based one even less efficient than any other we already have! About the only thing they have in their favour is they can be used to try and balance a grid made unstable by all the massively expensive and unreliable renewables. Your usual drivel. Still living in the Lala land of the past. You can't get your head around a new concept can you? This has been on the cards for years. They will only operate at times of peak demand and low electricity output. There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home. The idea works perfectly because home heat is needed in Winter when PV power output is down. All part of the Smart grid" system too. It will come to be the standard instead of gas boilers. Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. We can simply tell who wrote that without even looking at the author ... soo very predictable... Bit of light reading for you. If you're capable of understanding it that is. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf |
VW Generators
On 15/06/2014 06:46, harryagain wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... On 14/06/2014 20:19, polygonum wrote: "Move over Golf, how about a VW home power plant? Like its cars, can Germany's smart grid network of Volkswagen mini-generators win over Britain?" http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-plant-germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. "The system has the backing of the German government, which is pushing Lichtblick’s model – and a similar venture between Honda and meter maker Valliant – because it thinks switching to decentralised power units will make it possible to shut down its nuclear reactors by 2022." Steaming great dozy muppets. Lets take out zero co2 emission plant and shut it down in favour of a hydrocarbon based one even less efficient than any other we already have! About the only thing they have in their favour is they can be used to try and balance a grid made unstable by all the massively expensive and unreliable renewables. Your usual drivel. Still living in the Lala land of the past. You can't get your head around a new concept can you? No you are right it makes no sense at all. This has been on the cards for years. They will only operate at times of peak demand and low electricity output. There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home. ********. The most efficient IC engine based genset is less than half the efficiency of a combined cycle gas plant even including the distribution losses. The idea works perfectly because home heat is needed in Winter when PV power output is down. All part of the Smart grid" system too. It will come to be the standard instead of gas boilers. Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. Dangerous how? its always killed less people than solar and wind per TWh, and order of magnitude less than coal. Its the only ultimately viable solution so you will need to get used to it... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
VW Generators
On 15/06/2014 17:50, harryagain wrote:
Bit of light reading for you. If you're capable of understanding it that is. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf Author worked as a researcher for many years. researcher as in read stuff but did nothing herself. And it was for greenpeace and introduced by 'arry so we can safely assume its biased and ignore it. |
VW Generators
"dennis@home" wrote in message eb.com... On 15/06/2014 17:50, harryagain wrote: Bit of light reading for you. If you're capable of understanding it that is. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf Author worked as a researcher for many years. researcher as in read stuff but did nothing herself. And it was for greenpeace and introduced by 'arry so we can safely assume its biased and ignore it. Ah. You don't understand it do you Den? Hardly surprising. |
VW Generators
"John Rumm" wrote in message o.uk... On 15/06/2014 06:46, harryagain wrote: "John Rumm" wrote in message ... On 14/06/2014 20:19, polygonum wrote: "Move over Golf, how about a VW home power plant? Like its cars, can Germany's smart grid network of Volkswagen mini-generators win over Britain?" http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-plant-germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. "The system has the backing of the German government, which is pushing Lichtblick’s model – and a similar venture between Honda and meter maker Valliant – because it thinks switching to decentralised power units will make it possible to shut down its nuclear reactors by 2022." Steaming great dozy muppets. Lets take out zero co2 emission plant and shut it down in favour of a hydrocarbon based one even less efficient than any other we already have! About the only thing they have in their favour is they can be used to try and balance a grid made unstable by all the massively expensive and unreliable renewables. Your usual drivel. Still living in the Lala land of the past. You can't get your head around a new concept can you? No you are right it makes no sense at all. This has been on the cards for years. They will only operate at times of peak demand and low electricity output. There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home. ********. The most efficient IC engine based genset is less than half the efficiency of a combined cycle gas plant even including the distribution losses. The idea works perfectly because home heat is needed in Winter when PV power output is down. All part of the Smart grid" system too. It will come to be the standard instead of gas boilers. Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. Dangerous how? its always killed less people than solar and wind per TWh, and order of magnitude less than coal. Its the only ultimately viable solution so you will need to get used to it... Viable is exactly what it's not. |
VW Generators
"John Rumm" wrote in message o.uk... On 15/06/2014 06:46, harryagain wrote: "John Rumm" wrote in message ... On 14/06/2014 20:19, polygonum wrote: "Move over Golf, how about a VW home power plant? Like its cars, can Germany's smart grid network of Volkswagen mini-generators win over Britain?" http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-plant-germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. "The system has the backing of the German government, which is pushing Lichtblick’s model – and a similar venture between Honda and meter maker Valliant – because it thinks switching to decentralised power units will make it possible to shut down its nuclear reactors by 2022." Steaming great dozy muppets. Lets take out zero co2 emission plant and shut it down in favour of a hydrocarbon based one even less efficient than any other we already have! About the only thing they have in their favour is they can be used to try and balance a grid made unstable by all the massively expensive and unreliable renewables. Your usual drivel. Still living in the Lala land of the past. You can't get your head around a new concept can you? No you are right it makes no sense at all. This has been on the cards for years. They will only operate at times of peak demand and low electricity output. There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home. ********. The most efficient IC engine based genset is less than half the efficiency of a combined cycle gas plant even including the distribution losses. The idea works perfectly because home heat is needed in Winter when PV power output is down. All part of the Smart grid" system too. It will come to be the standard instead of gas boilers. Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. Dangerous how? its always killed less people than solar and wind per TWh, and order of magnitude less than coal. Its the only ultimately viable solution so you will need to get used to it... Viable is what it's not. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf |
VW Generators
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:14:32 +0100, tony sayer wrote:
Mind you the generator might not be the one that you'd want to run 24/7 and the engine might be a tad more noisy that you'd like to run at home... Aye, our little 2 kVA diesel is just a tad noisey but rather than than no heat in the middle of winter and ice has brought the lines down. There is an element of some sense in the idea but I reckon you'll still need a mains connection one way or the other.. Uur set burns about a litre of (red) diesel per hour, so approx 80p/hour. A litre of diesel contains about 10 kWhr of energy. I doubt our peak load is a kW so overall efficiency is 10% and thus p/kWhr is well over 80p. Purely from the cost POV it's not something that one would use without good reason, like no mains. And what did harry say? Oh yes "There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home." OK not recovering the waste heat but being a diesel it doesn't produce that much waste heat. But even if the heat was recovered, pushing efficiency to a generous 30%, that still about half that of CCGT station. -- Cheers Dave. |
VW Generators
John Rumm writes:
On 14/06/2014 20:19, polygonum wrote: "Move over Golf, how about a VW home power plant? Like its cars, can Germany's smart grid network of Volkswagen mini-generators win over Britain?" http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-plant-germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. "The system has the backing of the German government, which is pushing Lichtblick’s model – and a similar venture between Honda and meter maker Valliant – because it thinks switching to decentralised power units will make it possible to shut down its nuclear reactors by 2022." Steaming great dozy muppets. Lets take out zero co2 emission plant and shut it down in favour of a hydrocarbon based one even less efficient than any other we already have! About the only thing they have in their favour is they can be used to try and balance a grid made unstable by all the massively expensive and unreliable renewables. It's always been obvious that renewables + energy storage would be pretty nifty, but without storage not a lot of good. Just possibly, by pushing it all down to the individual level, something can be done to improve the situation before Putin (or whoever) turns off the taps. NiFe anyone? I see a lot of firewood logs stacked in city centre basements; maybe some think a problem is already developing. You can exist (I won't say live) with 4 watt LED lamps turned on only when a sensor detects a human presence in the room, you can look at the internet via a Raspberry PI and a tablet, and two or three layers of clothing and a cap on your head will allow existence without heating. (Your wife will leave you for someone with more purchasing power, but a 40 watt electric blanket will make up for the heat loss at least, while other expenses might even decrease :-). -- Windmill, Use t m i l l J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost |
VW Generators
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:14:32 +0100, tony sayer
wrote: In article , Johny B Good scribeth thus On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 12:52:10 +0100, Tim Watts wrote: On 15/06/14 12:47, Johny B Good wrote: It's true that the current crop of nuclear power stations have been cursed by the Cold War legacy but there remains the undeveloped LFTR technology, first looked at by the military over 40 years ago as a potential means of keeping a fleet of nuclear bombers aloft for weeks at a time until the penny dropped regarding ICBM technology refined from the V1 rocket program by Germany towards the end of WW2. Harry was happy with his 41p or whatever FIT payments. Don't make him feel sad... I had to google "FIT payments" (I'd seen it before but couldn't remember the context) and landed up on this page: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/...Getting-money- back/Cashback-Calculator Just out of interest, I tried the calculator using 'ballpark figures of 8KW generator head running an average of 8 hours a day during the 'heating season' to give a total annual generation figure of 11680 KWH which. at 75% export produced a total income and savings figure of £2,200! No wonder you urged me not to make Harry sad! However, since governments worldwide are unlikely to percieve nuclear as the new incredibly safer greener way to both power and save the planet for at least another decade or two, I don't think Harry has too much to worry about just yet. :-( In the meantime, micro CHP seems to be a 'No Brainer' solution to replacing a 25 years old CH/HW boiler that's come to its end of life. If I've interpreted that £2,200 figure correctly, I'd be looking at an effective ROI payback period of just one or two years. Just how much does a 2 litre petrol engine from a scrapyard cost these days? Prolly 300 to 600 odd quid in good nick.. That sounds about right to me. Honestly now, anyone got any idea? Also, more to the point, how much would an 8 or 10 KW genset head cost? Anything from £1200 to £5K ... I'd hope to be paying the lower figure for a 4 pole 1500rpm 50Hz generator head. Mind you the generator might not be the one that you'd want to run 24/7 and the engine might be a tad more noisy that you'd like to run at home... I've got a suitable basement location. It's where the existing Mexico Super 100 boiler lives at the moment. Obviously, I'm planning on running the engine at a nice sedate pace of1500 rpm inside a suitable soundproofed enclosure. It's literally only meant to replace the function of the original boiler. The 20% surplus electricity is going to be dumped into the mains supply connection. Basically I'm turning the current boiler's 79.2% efficiency (20.8% loss) into high value electric energy (turning the efficiency equation on its head so to speak). There is an element of some sense in the idea but I reckon you'll still need a mains connection one way or the other.. There'd be no sense at all in running a micro CHP generator _without_ a connection to the grid otherwise you're going to have a problem storing all that surplus electrical energy - the grid makes an excellent storage facility. From the viewpoint of the PSUs, it's far less problematic than home PV generation since it contributes to the grid during peak demand periods rather than during low demand periods. The mains gas consumption remains pretty well unchanged eliminating the "Robbing Peter to pay Paul" factor. I expect this type of co-generation would be favoured the most by the PSUs but they don't have any say in this and it seems the eco green ******** has decreed that the FIT rates be the least favourable of the lot for CHP. -- J B Good |
VW Generators
Johny B Good wrote:
tony sayer wrote: Johny B Good wrote: how much would an 8 or 10 KW genset head cost? Isn't 2kW the maximum size for CHP? Anything from £1200 to £5K ... the generator might not be the one that you'd want to run 24/7 I've got a suitable basement location. It's where the existing Mexico Super 100 boiler lives at the moment. Obviously, I'm planning on running the engine at a nice sedate pace of1500 rpm inside a suitable soundproofed enclosure. It's literally only meant to replace the function of the original boiler. The 20% surplus electricity is going to be dumped into the mains supply connection. You don't expect to be allowed to DIY install this "CHP" generator and get the FIT payments, do you? |
VW Generators
"Andy Burns" wrote in message o.uk... Johny B Good wrote: tony sayer wrote: Johny B Good wrote: how much would an 8 or 10 KW genset head cost? Isn't 2kW the maximum size for CHP? Anything from £1200 to £5K ... the generator might not be the one that you'd want to run 24/7 I've got a suitable basement location. It's where the existing Mexico Super 100 boiler lives at the moment. Obviously, I'm planning on running the engine at a nice sedate pace of1500 rpm inside a suitable soundproofed enclosure. It's literally only meant to replace the function of the original boiler. The 20% surplus electricity is going to be dumped into the mains supply connection. You don't expect to be allowed to DIY install this "CHP" generator and get the FIT payments, do you? No, that won't happen. Some cobbled up arrangement with second hand engines won't last two minutes anyway. |
VW Generators
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ll.co.uk... On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:14:32 +0100, tony sayer wrote: Mind you the generator might not be the one that you'd want to run 24/7 and the engine might be a tad more noisy that you'd like to run at home... Aye, our little 2 kVA diesel is just a tad noisey but rather than than no heat in the middle of winter and ice has brought the lines down. There is an element of some sense in the idea but I reckon you'll still need a mains connection one way or the other.. Uur set burns about a litre of (red) diesel per hour, so approx 80p/hour. A litre of diesel contains about 10 kWhr of energy. I doubt our peak load is a kW so overall efficiency is 10% and thus p/kWhr is well over 80p. Purely from the cost POV it's not something that one would use without good reason, like no mains. And what did harry say? Oh yes "There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home." OK not recovering the waste heat but being a diesel it doesn't produce that much waste heat. But even if the heat was recovered, pushing efficiency to a generous 30%, that still about half that of CCGT station. A proper CHP/co-generation engine recovers heat from the engine jacket, exhaust gases and oil. They are as efficient as condensing boiler, the advantage being that a portion of the gas/other fuel is turned into a more valuable product that can be exported (electricity). It has to be capable of running for many thousands of hours but will need maintenance. (Oil changes etc) So your beat up scrapper engine won't do. But the engine is running in far nearer to ideal conditions than for traction. Even industrial sized ones are not cheap (pro rata). So domestic sized ones are going to be really expensive plus there is all the gear for parallel operation. Plus you need a use for the heat, so that means Winter only running in most cases, so it will take a long time to recover the capital. The ones I had experience of preheated steam boiler feedwater all the year round & even than the economics were marginal. But fuel prices/economics have changed since then. |
VW Generators
We can simply tell who wrote that without even looking at the author
... soo very predictable... Bit of light reading for you. If you're capable of understanding it that is. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf Yes and?... -- Tony Sayer |
VW Generators
Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. Dangerous how? its always killed less people than solar and wind per TWh, and order of magnitude less than coal. Its the only ultimately viable solution so you will need to get used to it... Viable is what it's not. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf So what do you suggest for large scale power generation then Oh wise one?.. -- Tony Sayer |
VW Generators
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 00:24:29 +0100, Johny B Good
wrote: I'd hope to be paying the lower figure for a 4 pole 1500rpm 50Hz generator head. Not when you are forced to buy from a very small list of "approved" suppliers who must also install your approved equipment before you qualify for any FIT payment. |
VW Generators
polygonum wrote
"Move over Golf, how about a VW home power plant? Like its cars, can Germany's smart grid network of Volkswagen mini-generators win over Britain?" http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-plant-germany Move over Audrey II, this is a real power plant. Absolutely classic examples of the sort of terminal stupidity that the kraut system can end up with. It makes absolutely no sense what ever to be encouraging people to generate electricity that way. |
VW Generators
On 15/06/2014 19:53, harryagain wrote:
Viable is what it's not. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf Haven't you learnt yet? repeating it doesn't make it true! |
VW Generators
On 16/06/2014 07:02, harryagain wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ll.co.uk... On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:14:32 +0100, tony sayer wrote: Mind you the generator might not be the one that you'd want to run 24/7 and the engine might be a tad more noisy that you'd like to run at home... Aye, our little 2 kVA diesel is just a tad noisey but rather than than no heat in the middle of winter and ice has brought the lines down. There is an element of some sense in the idea but I reckon you'll still need a mains connection one way or the other.. Uur set burns about a litre of (red) diesel per hour, so approx 80p/hour. A litre of diesel contains about 10 kWhr of energy. I doubt our peak load is a kW so overall efficiency is 10% and thus p/kWhr is well over 80p. Purely from the cost POV it's not something that one would use without good reason, like no mains. And what did harry say? Oh yes "There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home." OK not recovering the waste heat but being a diesel it doesn't produce that much waste heat. But even if the heat was recovered, pushing efficiency to a generous 30%, that still about half that of CCGT station. A proper CHP/co-generation engine recovers heat from the engine jacket, exhaust gases and oil. They are as efficient as condensing boiler, the advantage being that a portion of the gas/other fuel is turned into a more valuable product that can be exported (electricity). It has to be capable of running for many thousands of hours but will need maintenance. (Oil changes etc) So your beat up scrapper engine won't do. But the engine is running in far nearer to ideal conditions than for traction. Even industrial sized ones are not cheap (pro rata). So domestic sized ones are going to be really expensive plus there is all the gear for parallel operation. Plus you need a use for the heat, so that means Winter only running in most cases, so it will take a long time to recover the capital. The ones I had experience of preheated steam boiler feedwater all the year round & even than the economics were marginal. But fuel prices/economics have changed since then. But harry they generate CO2 so are bad, very bad, very very bad as you keep telling us! Also they don't work well in well insulated houses as they just throw away the heat like they do in summer. Not all of us have a need to heat a swimming pool. |
VW Generators
On 16/06/2014 10:55, tony sayer wrote:
Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. Dangerous how? its always killed less people than solar and wind per TWh, and order of magnitude less than coal. Its the only ultimately viable solution so you will need to get used to it... Viable is what it's not. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf So what do you suggest for large scale power generation then Oh wise one?.. He wants us to import lots of foreign solar panels where they have been burning loads of fossil fuels to make them and transport them. Next it will be batteries where they have burnt loads of fossil fuels to make them. Like hybrid cars that actually produce more CO2 in their life than a normal petrol engined car unless you charge it on nuke electricity and never travel more than a couple of miles. |
VW Generators
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 05:02:53 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote: Johny B Good wrote: tony sayer wrote: Johny B Good wrote: how much would an 8 or 10 KW genset head cost? Isn't 2kW the maximum size for CHP? That's obviously not a physical limit so much as a FIT rate limit. The larger 15KW Hydro FIT rate provides a greater financial incentive for someone lucky enough to have access to the natural resource of an energetic flow of water nearby. Anything from £1200 to £5K ... the generator might not be the one that you'd want to run 24/7 I've got a suitable basement location. It's where the existing Mexico Super 100 boiler lives at the moment. Obviously, I'm planning on running the engine at a nice sedate pace of1500 rpm inside a suitable soundproofed enclosure. It's literally only meant to replace the function of the original boiler. The 20% surplus electricity is going to be dumped into the mains supply connection. You don't expect to be allowed to DIY install this "CHP" generator and get the FIT payments, do you? Not really but even just reducing my net consumption from the Grid could make it a worthwhile exercise since it has the added attraction of being able to act as an emergency electrical supply in the event of a blackout. Obviously, a summertime blackout means you'll be running it purely as a generator and, like all such gensets, be forced to throw away the heat as waste energy (but that's no worse than using a stand alone emergency genset anyway). In this case, you'd be shedding non-critical loads and keeping the electrical consumption to its minimum (you'd have to have a thermostatically linked car radiator and fan to dump the excess heat once the ho****er tank has reached its temperature limit). The more likely wintertime blackout event means you'll not have to chuck the 'waste heat' away as you'd normally be doing with a regular emergency generator but you'd probably have to connect a 2KW fanheater or two to contribute to the heating shortfall from the engine cooling flow and to increase the loading to raise the coolant temperature in a 'balancing act' that aims to minimise gas consumption for the desired level of heating. I'm assuming the meter isn't fraudulently prevented from running backwards from the legitimate reverse energy flow you're providing to the grid otherwise you'd be looking at a more expensive battery/converter setup to achieve the electrical savings. AFAIAA, the 'old fashioned' analogue meters have for many years now been fitted with 'reverse flow' flags to show attempts at defraud by reversing the in and out connections for suitable periods to reduce the net reading which also reveals legitimate exports of energy from a home generated source of electricity. Unfortunately, this complicates the metering requirements for such home installations (CHP, PV, Hydro and wind). With that being the case, the home owner has no choice but to 'buy' a readymade and certified micro CHP system and take advantage of whatever grants may be available to encourage such 'end user bravery'. I don't imagine they'll be a cheap option (but I've yet to look for any example pricing to see whether this would make any financial sense). -- J B Good |
VW Generators
"dennis@home" wrote in message eb.com... On 16/06/2014 07:02, harryagain wrote: "Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ll.co.uk... On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:14:32 +0100, tony sayer wrote: Mind you the generator might not be the one that you'd want to run 24/7 and the engine might be a tad more noisy that you'd like to run at home... Aye, our little 2 kVA diesel is just a tad noisey but rather than than no heat in the middle of winter and ice has brought the lines down. There is an element of some sense in the idea but I reckon you'll still need a mains connection one way or the other.. Uur set burns about a litre of (red) diesel per hour, so approx 80p/hour. A litre of diesel contains about 10 kWhr of energy. I doubt our peak load is a kW so overall efficiency is 10% and thus p/kWhr is well over 80p. Purely from the cost POV it's not something that one would use without good reason, like no mains. And what did harry say? Oh yes "There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home." OK not recovering the waste heat but being a diesel it doesn't produce that much waste heat. But even if the heat was recovered, pushing efficiency to a generous 30%, that still about half that of CCGT station. A proper CHP/co-generation engine recovers heat from the engine jacket, exhaust gases and oil. They are as efficient as condensing boiler, the advantage being that a portion of the gas/other fuel is turned into a more valuable product that can be exported (electricity). It has to be capable of running for many thousands of hours but will need maintenance. (Oil changes etc) So your beat up scrapper engine won't do. But the engine is running in far nearer to ideal conditions than for traction. Even industrial sized ones are not cheap (pro rata). So domestic sized ones are going to be really expensive plus there is all the gear for parallel operation. Plus you need a use for the heat, so that means Winter only running in most cases, so it will take a long time to recover the capital. The ones I had experience of preheated steam boiler feedwater all the year round & even than the economics were marginal. But fuel prices/economics have changed since then. But harry they generate CO2 so are bad, very bad, very very bad as you keep telling us! Also they don't work well in well insulated houses as they just throw away the heat like they do in summer. Not all of us have a need to heat a swimming pool. Well ****-fer-brains, run on gas it's a lot less CO2 than petrol or diesel. I already pointed out the summer heat problem. You wouldn't run them in summer. |
VW Generators
"Peter Parry" wrote in message ... On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 00:24:29 +0100, Johny B Good wrote: I'd hope to be paying the lower figure for a 4 pole 1500rpm 50Hz generator head. Not when you are forced to buy from a very small list of "approved" suppliers who must also install your approved equipment before you qualify for any FIT payment. Exactly what happens with PV panels. |
VW Generators
"tony sayer" wrote in message ... Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. Dangerous how? its always killed less people than solar and wind per TWh, and order of magnitude less than coal. Its the only ultimately viable solution so you will need to get used to it... Viable is what it's not. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf So what do you suggest for large scale power generation then Oh wise one?.. -- Tony Sayer We've already been into that in the past. |
VW Generators
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus "tony sayer" wrote in message ... Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. Dangerous how? its always killed less people than solar and wind per TWh, and order of magnitude less than coal. Its the only ultimately viable solution so you will need to get used to it... Viable is what it's not. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf So what do you suggest for large scale power generation then Oh wise one?.. -- Tony Sayer We've already been into that in the past. As maybe but any more sensible answers though?... -- Tony Sayer |
VW Generators
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:48:46 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote: "dennis@home" wrote in message web.com... On 16/06/2014 07:02, harryagain wrote: "Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ll.co.uk... On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:14:32 +0100, tony sayer wrote: Mind you the generator might not be the one that you'd want to run 24/7 and the engine might be a tad more noisy that you'd like to run at home... Aye, our little 2 kVA diesel is just a tad noisey but rather than than no heat in the middle of winter and ice has brought the lines down. There is an element of some sense in the idea but I reckon you'll still need a mains connection one way or the other.. Uur set burns about a litre of (red) diesel per hour, so approx 80p/hour. A litre of diesel contains about 10 kWhr of energy. I doubt our peak load is a kW so overall efficiency is 10% and thus p/kWhr is well over 80p. Purely from the cost POV it's not something that one would use without good reason, like no mains. And what did harry say? Oh yes "There will always be a need for gas fired plant, this is just microgeneration and is more efficient in that the power is used locally and the heat in the home." OK not recovering the waste heat but being a diesel it doesn't produce that much waste heat. But even if the heat was recovered, pushing efficiency to a generous 30%, that still about half that of CCGT station. A proper CHP/co-generation engine recovers heat from the engine jacket, exhaust gases and oil. They are as efficient as condensing boiler, the advantage being that a portion of the gas/other fuel is turned into a more valuable product that can be exported (electricity). It has to be capable of running for many thousands of hours but will need maintenance. (Oil changes etc) So your beat up scrapper engine won't do. But the engine is running in far nearer to ideal conditions than for traction. Even industrial sized ones are not cheap (pro rata). So domestic sized ones are going to be really expensive plus there is all the gear for parallel operation. Plus you need a use for the heat, so that means Winter only running in most cases, so it will take a long time to recover the capital. The ones I had experience of preheated steam boiler feedwater all the year round & even than the economics were marginal. But fuel prices/economics have changed since then. But harry they generate CO2 so are bad, very bad, very very bad as you keep telling us! Also they don't work well in well insulated houses as they just throw away the heat like they do in summer. Not all of us have a need to heat a swimming pool. Well ****-fer-brains, run on gas it's a lot less CO2 than petrol or diesel. I already pointed out the summer heat problem. You wouldn't run them in summer. I hate to have to say this but, for once, Harry does make an excellent point. :-) -- J B Good |
VW Generators
"tony sayer" wrote in message ... In article , harryagain scribeth thus "tony sayer" wrote in message ... Nuclear power is finished in sensible society. It always was a false path, invented as byproduct of the nuclear weapons program. Inefficient, expensive and dangerous. Dangerous how? its always killed less people than solar and wind per TWh, and order of magnitude less than coal. Its the only ultimately viable solution so you will need to get used to it... Viable is what it's not. http://stophinkley.org/WManDecom/DEC...l27May2014.pdf So what do you suggest for large scale power generation then Oh wise one?.. -- Tony Sayer We've already been into that in the past. As maybe but any more sensible answers though?... -- Tony Sayer Like this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewab...rgy_in_Germany |
VW Generators
On 17/06/2014 02:44, Johny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:48:46 +0100, "harryagain" 8 Well ****-fer-brains, run on gas it's a lot less CO2 than petrol or diesel. I already pointed out the summer heat problem. You wouldn't run them in summer. I hate to have to say this but, for once, Harry does make an excellent point. :-) Well it appears its OK to generate CO2 in winter so all we need to do is burn fossil fuel in winter and find some way to store the energy for summer. These greens always have the wrong answer for everything. |
VW Generators
So what do you suggest for large scale power generation then Oh wise one?.. -- Tony Sayer We've already been into that in the past. As maybe but any more sensible answers though?... -- Tony Sayer Like this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewab...rgy_in_Germany Humm.... At 25 May 2012, a Saturday, solar power reached a new record with feeding 22 GW, as much as 20 nuclear power stations, into the German power grid, which made 50% of the nation's midday's electricity demand. The jump above the 20 GW level was due to increased capacity and bright sunshine nation-wide.. Well isn't that impressive. Wonder why they don't quote 18:00 hrs on say 25 November ?.... Subsidises aimed at stimulating the growth of renewables have driven up consumer energy prices by 12.5% in the year to 2013.[43] To date, German consumers have absorbed the costs of the Energiewende, but the IEA says that the debate over the social and economic impacts of the new approach has become more prominent as the share of renewable energy has continued to grow alongside rising electricity prices. The transition to a low- carbon energy sector requires public acceptance, and, therefore, retail electricity prices must remain at an affordable level. Presently, German electricity prices are among the highest in Europe, despite relatively low wholesale prices Humm .. not so good that then.. So where does the power come from when the wind don't blow enough or its not quite that sunny?... I note they take a bit of power from Nuclear and Hydro power France but where else does it come from?.. Now please don't come up with that silly "well the winds always blowing somewhere" joke... -- Tony Sayer |
VW Generators
On 17/06/2014 15:13, tony sayer wrote:
German power Humm .. not so good that then.. So where does the power come from when the wind don't blow enough or its not quite that sunny?... I note they take a bit of power from Nuclear and Hydro power France but where else does it come from?.. The *used* to take it from their own nuclear stations, but as they shut them down after the Japanese incident, they just chuck some more brown coal into the boilers nowadays. They have to do that when it's calm and cloudy in Denmark, too, as the Danes no longer have any fossil fuel generators to speak of, and throw their hands up in horror at the thought of nuclear power. Now please don't come up with that silly "well the winds always blowing somewhere" joke... It's always blowing warm near harry. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
VW Generators
On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 13:39:46 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote: On 17/06/2014 02:44, Johny B Good wrote: On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 17:48:46 +0100, "harryagain" 8 Well ****-fer-brains, run on gas it's a lot less CO2 than petrol or diesel. I already pointed out the summer heat problem. You wouldn't run them in summer. I hate to have to say this but, for once, Harry does make an excellent point. :-) Well it appears its OK to generate CO2 in winter so all we need to do is burn fossil fuel in winter and find some way to store the energy for summer. Running a micro CHP system in winter actually reduces your net CO2 contribution since you're burning, to a very close approximation, the same amount of gas that an 80% efficient boiler would have used only the 20% loss is now being realised as useful electrical energy which reduces the demand on the national grid, reducing the carbon emissions at the coal or gas fired power stations. These greens always have the wrong answer for everything. Sadly, that's depressingly true. They seem to lack the necessary pragmatism and vision required to make more truly optimum choices in regard of energy production solutions. If they could remove their heads from up their collective arses and 'wake up and smell the coffee', they'd be hollering the loudest for an accelerated LFTR development program. Whilst Fusion has now finally reached the break even point, even if it's only for 150 picoseconds at a time, it may take yet another 50 years before this techology can be converted into an effective source of energy. In the meantime, further research on this front will continue to demand vast amounts of energy to continue the Fusion Energy development program. If we don't invest in an interim nuclear power program such as the very promising LFTR technology very soon, we could end up 'being caught short' as the looming energy crisis starts to make itself felt in the developed world. -- J B Good |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:01 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 DIYbanter