Hi all

Following on from my previous thread Higher Speed Broadband with
FTTC, I am trying to establish what sort of loss of signal I am likely
to get over my in-house "extension" cable.

The reason I have extension in quotes is because, although it is an
extension of the supplied incoming phone line, it is before the face
plate splitter and router/phone distribution panel bit.

Q1: what is the construction of the incoming phone line supplied by KC
likely to be? Is this twisted pair or simply 4 core telephone cable?
If it makes a difference, the house is early 70s with an underground
connection (supplied by Kingston Communications) right into the hallway
master box.

Q2: if I use my existing installed telephone cable between the master
box and the loft, what additional losses would be incurred on the signal
before it made it to the new splitter/router (as compared to installing
the splitter at the current master box hall location and connecting the
router there)? I have 2 cables between the hallway master box and the
loft, one 4 core and one 8 core telephone cable. The 4 core is
currently in use with the 8 core as spare - both follow the same route
and are approx 15m long.

Q3: would there be any advantage in doubling or trebling up on cores
used between the current master box location and the loft splitter to
reduce signal loss?

Although our BB service is rather poor (around 4Mb average) I believe
this is down to our distance from the exchange on an all copper supply
ATM, rather than restrictions due to internal wiring.

thanks

Phil

On 05/06/2014 16:43, thescullster wrote:
Hi all

Following on from my previous thread Higher Speed Broadband with
FTTC, I am trying to establish what sort of loss of signal I am likely
to get over my in-house "extension" cable.

The reason I have extension in quotes is because, although it is an
extension of the supplied incoming phone line, it is before the face
plate splitter and router/phone distribution panel bit.

Q1: what is the construction of the incoming phone line supplied by KC
likely to be? Is this twisted pair or simply 4 core telephone cable? If
it makes a difference, the house is early 70s with an underground
connection (supplied by Kingston Communications) right into the hallway
master box.

Q2: if I use my existing installed telephone cable between the master
box and the loft, what additional losses would be incurred on the signal
before it made it to the new splitter/router (as compared to installing
the splitter at the current master box hall location and connecting the
router there)? I have 2 cables between the hallway master box and the
loft, one 4 core and one 8 core telephone cable. The 4 core is
currently in use with the 8 core as spare - both follow the same route
and are approx 15m long.

Q3: would there be any advantage in doubling or trebling up on cores
used between the current master box location and the loft splitter to
reduce signal loss?

Although our BB service is rather poor (around 4Mb average) I believe
this is down to our distance from the exchange on an all copper supply
ATM, rather than restrictions due to internal wiring.

The incoming cable will almost certainly be a twisted pair but in any
case you have no control over that.

It is best practice to locate the ADSL router as close to the master
socket as possible and use network cable from it to the computers.
Forget about the cores or the signal loss within the building as it will
be negligible. The real problem within buildings is interference to the
phone lines.


--
Peter Crosland

Reply address is valid

thescullster wrote:

Q1: what is the construction of the incoming phone line supplied by KC
likely to be? Is this twisted pair or simply 4 core telephone cable?

Telephone cable *is* twisted pair, albeit cat3 rather than cat5 you
might be used to for ethernet in office wiring, most likely the cable
will be CW1308 spec internally the drop wire or underground wire may
have a more substantial outer sheath.

Q2: if I use my existing installed telephone cable between the master
box and the loft, what additional losses would be incurred on the signal
before it made it to the new splitter/router (as compared to installing
the splitter at the current master box hall location and connecting the
router there)? I have 2 cables between the hallway master box and the
loft, one 4 core and one 8 core telephone cable. The 4 core is
currently in use with the 8 core as spare - both follow the same route
and are approx 15m long.

Probably relatively little difference, though more with VDSL that you'd
get from ADSL (your 15m is a greater fraction of the hundreds of metres
to the cabinet that it would be of the thousands of metres to the
exchange) so long your cable is twisted i.e proper phone cable, rather
than e.g. alarm cable.

Q3: would there be any advantage in doubling or trebling up on cores
used between the current master box location and the loft splitter to
reduce signal loss?

Doubt it, but you could try I suppose.

On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 20:53:58 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Q3: would there be any advantage in doubling or trebling up on
cores
used between the current master box location and the loft splitter
to
reduce signal loss?

Doubt it, but you could try I suppose.

Could try but I suspect that the impedance mismatches would screw
things up. CCS "CW1308" certainly fups up ADSL. VDSL uses a much
broader bandwidth (up to 30 MHz?). Those higher frequencies won't
like impedance mismatches.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 05/06/2014 16:43, thescullster wrote:
Hi all

Following on from my previous thread Higher Speed Broadband with
FTTC, I am trying to establish what sort of loss of signal I am likely
to get over my in-house "extension" cable.

The reason I have extension in quotes is because, although it is an
extension of the supplied incoming phone line, it is before the face
plate splitter and router/phone distribution panel bit.

Q1: what is the construction of the incoming phone line supplied by KC
likely to be? Is this twisted pair or simply 4 core telephone cable? If
it makes a difference, the house is early 70s with an underground
connection (supplied by Kingston Communications) right into the hallway
master box.

Q2: if I use my existing installed telephone cable between the master
box and the loft, what additional losses would be incurred on the signal
before it made it to the new splitter/router (as compared to installing
the splitter at the current master box hall location and connecting the
router there)? I have 2 cables between the hallway master box and the
loft, one 4 core and one 8 core telephone cable. The 4 core is
currently in use with the 8 core as spare - both follow the same route
and are approx 15m long.

Q3: would there be any advantage in doubling or trebling up on cores
used between the current master box location and the loft splitter to
reduce signal loss?

Although our BB service is rather poor (around 4Mb average) I believe
this is down to our distance from the exchange on an all copper supply
ATM, rather than restrictions due to internal wiring.

thanks

Phil

Thanks to all

I will have to strip a bit of the existing phone cable and/or spare to
check that the existing stuff is twisted pair between hall and loft.

Phil

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:48:36 +0100, thescullster wrote:

I will have to strip a bit of the existing phone cable and/or spare to
check that the existing stuff is twisted pair between hall and loft.

Proper telephone twisted pair (CW1308) has white/colour
colour/white for the solid core wire of each pair. The only other
cable that I can think of that looks like CW1308 is alarm cable, that
has plain colour, stranded, wires.

Not sure if CCA is about in CW1308 form, CCS is and upsets ADSL.
Might be worth trying confirm that the wire is copper, not steel or
aluminium. A magnet sorts out steel, scrapeing to check the core
color copper v ali.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Friday, June 6, 2014 8:32:22 PM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:48:36 +0100, thescullster wrote:

I will have to strip a bit of the existing phone cable and/or spare to
check that the existing stuff is twisted pair between hall and loft.

Proper telephone twisted pair (CW1308) has white/colour
colour/white for the solid core wire of each pair. The only other
cable that I can think of that looks like CW1308 is alarm cable, that
has plain colour, stranded, wires.
Not sure if CCA is about in CW1308 form, CCS is and upsets ADSL.
Might be worth trying confirm that the wire is copper, not steel or
aluminium. A magnet sorts out steel, scrapeing to check the core
color copper v ali.

Whats the mechanism of upset with CCS, eddy currents?


NT

On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 15:52:54 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Whats the mechanism of upset with CCS, eddy currents?

Donno, haven't the test kit to investigate how a signals from 125 kHz
to 1.1 MHz propagate down a mix of copper and CCS.

There is a thread, probably in here from within the last year or two
about it. IIRC using a length of CCS "CW1308" a handful of metres
long between the incoming dropwire and internal copper CW1308 knocked
the best part of 2 Mbps off the sync speed and at night it was even
worse.

Again IIRC, Steel has about 7 times the resistance of copper so there
was two transitions that potentially have an impedance mismatch and
thus reflections etc. These reflections will interfere with the main
signals.

--
Cheers
Dave.