http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

Ah, the journalistic talents of a trained chimp at work again then.
What sort of headline would tick all the boxes for a must read by the
mythical Daily Mail reader then?

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"harryagain" wrote in message
...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

On 16/09/13 08:29, Brian Gaff wrote:
Ah, the journalistic talents of a trained chimp at work again then.
What sort of headline would tick all the boxes for a must read by the
mythical Daily Mail reader then?

Brian

Apart from the usual sensational headline, the article is reasonably
researched and written - for the daily Mail anyway.
If you want utter drivel, try the Guardian or NY times.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

In article ,
harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

*************
'This scheme is a direct consequence of the renewable energy policy
adopted by the Coalition but first developed by Tony Blair in response to
EU renewables directives to reduce Britain‘s carbon emissions by 20 per
cent by 2020.'
*************

If they could blame immigration too, they'd have managed most of their
hobby horses in one sentence...

--
*Microsoft broke Volkswagen's record: They only made 21.4 million bugs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 08:50:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 16/09/13 08:29, Brian Gaff wrote:
Ah, the journalistic talents of a trained chimp at work again then.
What sort of headline would tick all the boxes for a must read by the
mythical Daily Mail reader then?


Apart from the usual sensational headline, the article is reasonably
researched and written - for the daily Mail anyway.

It's a reflection of the **** we are getting into. Rather than demand reduction,
that was the original intention of this scheme it has morphed into a pikey run
generation mechanism. The loss of large industrial load that is capable of
being temporarily interrupted hasn't helped.

Wind is currently blowing at 'optimum' levels over Scotland, yet their export to
England is less than 1.2 GW. They wil be ****ed when Salmond shuts Torness and
Hunterston B down.


--

On 16/09/2013 10:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

*************
'This scheme is a direct consequence of the renewable energy policy
adopted by the Coalition but first developed by Tony Blair in response to
EU renewables directives to reduce Britain‘s carbon emissions by 20 per
cent by 2020.'
*************

If they could blame immigration too, they'd have managed most of their
hobby horses in one sentence...


I'm surprised they missed that one! They'd only have to have said that
we wouldn't need half as much energy if it weren't for the immigrants! g
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 07:48:47 +0100, harryagain wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-dirty-secret-
Britains-power-madness-Polluting-diesel-generators-built-secret-foreign-
companies-kick-theres-wind-turbines--insane-true-eco-
scandals.html#addComment

A lot of it (at least the first article) seems O.K. apart from the
headline.

Oh, and I don't quite understand how, if there is a power cut, the
hospitals can then use their emergency generators to prop up the National
Grid - I assume they are there to keep the hospital running and sized for
that task so if the power dips they are likely to be busy.

Unless of course there is a brown out and they give say 50% to the
hospital and the other 50% into the grid.

One snippet related to opera :-)

"I would never dream of applying to put wind turbines on my land in an
attempt to turn a profit. But the local farmers have their noses in the
trough"

On one of our walks we can see two wind turbines on farm land.
One is well sited, and is always turning even on days with little wind.

The other seems to be in almost permanent wind shadow.
Even today when it is blowing a hooligan it wasn't turning.

So does it still make economic sense (for the farmer) to have a wind
generator which doesn't generate?

Cheers

Dave R

On 16 Sep 2013 11:18:35 GMT, David.WE.Roberts wrote:

Oh, and I don't quite understand how, if there is a power cut, the
hospitals can then use their emergency generators to prop up the
National Grid - I assume they are there to keep the hospital running and
sized for that task so if the power dips they are likely to be busy.

That's what I thought as well. But the sets are sat idle most of the
time, costing money. It would need some careful thought and contract
writing to enable the sets to be used as STOR and generate income
whilst still protecting the place they are there to protect in the
first place.

The other seems to be in almost permanent wind shadow.
Even today when it is blowing a hooligan it wasn't turning.

So does it still make economic sense (for the farmer) to have a wind
generator which doesn't generate?

Depends, the farmer may not be the owner of the windmills so he won't
be getting the FIT payments. He will be getting rental for the land
and access rights wether the windmill turns or not...

--
Cheers
Dave.

harryagain wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

So, which bits are wrong?


--
Terry Fields

On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811

Colin Bignell

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811

Colin Bignell

No mention of cost, I note.

--
*One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/09/2013 14:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment


These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811

Colin Bignell

Absolutely! That's a guaranteed source of energy virtually all the time.
There may be slack periods near high and low tide when they don't
generate a lot, but if you have enough of them in different places, you
can cover that.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

"David.WE.Roberts" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 07:48:47 +0100, harryagain wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-dirty-secret-
Britains-power-madness-Polluting-diesel-generators-built-secret-foreign-
companies-kick-theres-wind-turbines--insane-true-eco-
scandals.html#addComment

A lot of it (at least the first article) seems O.K. apart from the
headline.

Oh, and I don't quite understand how, if there is a power cut, the
hospitals can then use their emergency generators to prop up the National
Grid - I assume they are there to keep the hospital running and sized for
that task so if the power dips they are likely to be busy.

Unless of course there is a brown out and they give say 50% to the
hospital and the other 50% into the grid.

Hospital emergency generators can't even meet the entire hospital load.
Non essentialload is shed before they are started.

Apart from the issue that they are incapable of parallel operation.

"Terry Fields" wrote in message
...
harryagain wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

So, which bits are wrong?


--
Terry Fields

The issue of synchronising with the public supply for parallel operation.
And the fact that stanby generators are sized to meet the site load, (and
often only part of that) not anything additional off site.
And the site load must be something critical for anyone to go to the expense
of installling standby generators so they won't be willing to export power.
Also:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-islanding

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811

Colin Bignell

Yep, good project, we need them all.
We also need the Servern and other tidal barrages.

On Monday, September 16, 2013 4:42:19 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message

...

On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment



These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811



Colin Bignell



Yep, good project, we need them all.

We also need the Servern and other tidal barrages.

The Severn barrage would be an environmental disaster the scale of which no nuke plant could match.

Philip

On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 09:28:16 -0700, wrote:

The Severn barrage would be an environmental disaster the scale of which
no nuke plant could match.

Why do I think that could be just a _tad_ over-exaggerated...?

On 16/09/2013 16:40, harryagain wrote:
"Terry Fields" wrote in message
...
harryagain wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

So, which bits are wrong?


--
Terry Fields

The issue of synchronising with the public supply for parallel operation.
And the fact that stanby generators are sized to meet the site load, (and
often only part of that) not anything additional off site.
And the site load must be something critical for anyone to go to the expense
of installling standby generators so they won't be willing to export power.
Also:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-islanding

Synchronising generators that are not designed to be synchronised is
indeed a problem. As will be the lack of a system for exporting power,
as all the hospital standby generators will presumably be designed to
only run when the main supply is isolated.

As to generators only being sized for the site's critical load, yes, but
I assume that while grid power is still available, but there is no
reserve, hospitals would export power to prop up the grid. At this stage
they would not be needing their own generator supplies for themselves,
but if things got worse, I assume they would prioritise and cut
themselves off from the grid to ensure their own services.

SteveW

On 16/09/2013 14:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811

Colin Bignell

No mention of cost, I note.


Probably because this is a pilot project to determine such things.
However, the estimates I have seen put the cost of fixed tidal turbines
at about the same as onshore wind.

Colin Bignell

On 16/09/2013 16:42, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811

Colin Bignell

Yep, good project, we need them all.
We also need the Servern and other tidal barrages.


This technology is an alternative to environmentally disastrous Severn
Barrage.

Colin Bignell

On 16/09/13 10:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

*************
'This scheme is a direct consequence of the renewable energy policy
adopted by the Coalition but first developed by Tony Blair in response to
EU renewables directives to reduce Britain€˜s carbon emissions by 20 per
cent by 2020.'
*************

If they could blame immigration too, they'd have managed most of their
hobby horses in one sentence...

Blair is an immigrant from Scotland, and so is Brown.

There fixed it for you!



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 16/09/13 12:18, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Oh, and I don't quite understand how, if there is a power cut, the
hospitals can then use their emergency generators to prop up the
National Grid - I assume they are there to keep the hospital running
and sized for that task so if the power dips they are likely to be busy.

The theory is they can at least take their load off the network BEFORE
the power cuts out.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 16/09/13 14:56, Roger Mills wrote:
On 16/09/2013 14:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment



These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811

Colin Bignell

Absolutely! That's a guaranteed source of energy virtually all the
time. There may be slack periods near high and low tide when they
don't generate a lot, but if you have enough of them in different
places, you can cover that.
you can't. high tides are all one side of the country. The eastern side
is all much lower tides. By the time you get to the baltic, there are no
tides to speak of. additionally, is the cost of the east-west
interconnectors to balance the flow costed out and added in? No. Thought
not.

More hand wavey green nonsense...



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 16/09/13 16:42, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment
These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811

Colin Bignell
Yep, good project, we need them all.
We also need the Servern and other tidal barrages.


WE don't need any of them at all.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 16/09/13 17:28, wrote:

The Severn barrage would be an environmental disaster the scale of which no nuke plant could match.

Philip
+1


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 16/09/13 17:30, Adrian wrote:
On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 09:28:16 -0700, wrote:

The Severn barrage would be an environmental disaster the scale of which
no nuke plant could match.
Why do I think that could be just a _tad_ over-exaggerated...?
it isnt actually

The scale of 'green power' is not yet grapsed by people who see s few
wind turbines and think that can't be too bad.

If you were to create a wind farm with the same average output as
Fukushima, it would PERMANENTLY render TOTALLY UNINHABITABLE an area the
size of greater London and a fair chunk of the home counties - larger
than the Fujkushima(temporary) exclusion zone ever was.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
tides to speak of. additionally, is the cost of the east-west
interconnectors to balance the flow costed out and added in?

Haven't we already got that? It's called the National grid.

JGH

On 16/09/2013 17:30, Adrian wrote:
On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 09:28:16 -0700, wrote:

The Severn barrage would be an environmental disaster the scale of which
no nuke plant could match.

Why do I think that could be just a _tad_ over-exaggerated...?


It probably isn't.
Silting up the Severn estuary would be a pretty big disaster for
anything that lives there.
A nuclear melt down like Chernobyl has minimal impact on stuff living
nearby.

On 16/09/2013 18:35, Nightjar wrote:
On 16/09/2013 16:42, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment



These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811

Colin Bignell

Yep, good project, we need them all. We also need the Servern and
other tidal barrages.


This technology is an alternative to environmentally disastrous
Severn Barrage.

Colin Bignell

Unless having thousands of them is equally disasterous.

En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

If they could blame immigration too, they'd have managed most of their
hobby horses in one sentence...

You forgot Diana and house prices.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

En el artículo ,
escribió:

The Severn barrage would be an environmental disaster the scale of which no nuke
plant could match.

And your evidence for this is?

None? No, thought not.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 21:13:10 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

If they could blame immigration too, they'd have managed most of their
hobby horses in one sentence...

You forgot Diana and house prices.

Both of those give you cancer one week and cure it the next.
It's absolutely true, because I read it in the Daily Mail.

On 16/09/13 20:27, wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
tides to speak of. additionally, is the cost of the east-west
interconnectors to balance the flow costed out and added in?
Haven't we already got that? It's called the National grid.

JGH
No, we haven't got that already. The national grid is a minimal network
designed to fine tune and balance a mesh of local power stations feeding
(largely) local loads. Not transport several gigawatts from one end of
the country to the other.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 10:38:27 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment

*************
'This scheme is a direct consequence of the renewable energy policy
adopted by the Coalition but first developed by Tony Blair in response to
EU renewables directives to reduce Britain‘s carbon emissions by 20 per
cent by 2020.'
*************

If they could blame immigration too, they'd have managed most of their
hobby horses in one sentence...

But what is it going to do to house prices?

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 21:13:10 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

If they could blame immigration too, they'd have managed most of their
hobby horses in one sentence...

You forgot Diana and house prices.

Both of those give you cancer one week and cure it the next.
It's absolutely true, because I read it in the Daily Mail.

Daily Mail Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 16/09/13 14:56, Roger Mills wrote:
On 16/09/2013 14:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment


These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811

Colin Bignell

Absolutely! That's a guaranteed source of energy virtually all the time.
There may be slack periods near high and low tide when they don't
generate a lot, but if you have enough of them in different places, you
can cover that.
you can't. high tides are all one side of the country. The eastern side is
all much lower tides. By the time you get to the baltic, there are no
tides to speak of. additionally, is the cost of the east-west
interconnectors to balance the flow costed out and added in? No. Thought
not.

More hand wavey green nonsense...

More drivel fromTurNiP.

Tides are low in the Baltic because of the narrow passge linking it to the
North Sea.
There has been tidal flooding on the Southeast coast of the UK. It is a
macro tidal area due to the shape of the sea bed and coast.
There is a plan to incorporate tidal energy scheme into e new Thames
barrier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Barrier#Future

wrote in message
...
On Monday, September 16, 2013 4:42:19 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message

...

On 16/09/2013 07:48, harryagain wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...tml#addComment



These make a lot more sense than wind turbines:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24100811



Colin Bignell



Yep, good project, we need them all.

We also need the Servern and other tidal barrages.

The Severn barrage would be an environmental disaster the scale of which
no nuke plant could match.


Oh, why?

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 16/09/13 17:30, Adrian wrote:
On Mon, 16 Sep 2013 09:28:16 -0700, wrote:

The Severn barrage would be an environmental disaster the scale of which
no nuke plant could match.
Why do I think that could be just a _tad_ over-exaggerated...?
it isnt actually

The scale of 'green power' is not yet grapsed by people who see s few wind
turbines and think that can't be too bad.

If you were to create a wind farm with the same average output as
Fukushima, it would PERMANENTLY render TOTALLY UNINHABITABLE an area the
size of greater London and a fair chunk of the home counties - larger
than the Fujkushima(temporary) exclusion zone ever was.

What drivel.

On 17/09/2013 07:36, harryagain wrote:
....
There has been tidal flooding on the Southeast coast of the UK...

I rather doubt we can rely upon 50 year and 100 year tidal surge events
to power the country.

Colin Bignell

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/09/13 20:27, wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
tides to speak of. additionally, is the cost of the east-west
interconnectors to balance the flow costed out and added in?
Haven't we already got that? It's called the National grid.

JGH
No, we haven't got that already. The national grid is a minimal network
designed to fine tune and balance a mesh of local power stations feeding
(largely) local loads.

[Snip]


It may have started like that, but, over the years, most of the local power
stations have been close (Battersea, Bankside, etc) and power comes from
giant ones instead.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18