Having been through full planning and Building Regulations for the
remodelling of the back of our house I am a little bemused over some
things that have emerged.

Firstly, after you have planning permission the role of the planners seems
to be complete. There is no inspection to confirm that whatever you have
done conforms to the plans submitted.

Building Regulations is a separate department - in fact a separate
business - and has no links to planning at all. They don't enforce
planning, just BR.

So the planners have no idea if the plans have been followed unless
someone (irate neighbour, usually) registers a complaint.

Secondly, BR do not (certainly in our case) do a final inspection to
confirm that all works have been completed to BR and all gas and
electrical work has been certified.

We know this because our certificate of completion turned up in the post
today - without anyone coming round to check that we had done everything
by the book.

Now in our case we did ensure regular inspections at key stages of the
build and we did follow the plans.

However if we hadn't, then who would know?

We have planning permission and BR sign off.

Makes you wonder how much all this process is worth, really.

Cheers

Dave R

On Thursday, September 5, 2013 10:08:20 AM UTC+1, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Having been through full planning and Building Regulations for the

remodelling of the back of our house I am a little bemused over some

things that have emerged.



Firstly, after you have planning permission the role of the planners seems

to be complete. There is no inspection to confirm that whatever you have

done conforms to the plans submitted.



Building Regulations is a separate department - in fact a separate

business - and has no links to planning at all. They don't enforce

planning, just BR.



So the planners have no idea if the plans have been followed unless

someone (irate neighbour, usually) registers a complaint.



Secondly, BR do not (certainly in our case) do a final inspection to

confirm that all works have been completed to BR and all gas and

electrical work has been certified.



We know this because our certificate of completion turned up in the post

today - without anyone coming round to check that we had done everything

by the book.



Now in our case we did ensure regular inspections at key stages of the

build and we did follow the plans.



However if we hadn't, then who would know?



We have planning permission and BR sign off.



Makes you wonder how much all this process is worth, really.


We had a long building project that took three years (much longer than planned for a number of reasons). The BR guys that came round spent half an hour here and spent half that time debating whether one particular door should be a fire door. No interest in certificates etc. I think their primary concern was fire.

The most interesting thing to me was that there were a couple of details that the builder was worried about and they didn't even mention them.

So I think you're right.

Jonathan

On 05/09/2013 10:08, David.WE.Roberts wrote:

Having been through full planning and Building Regulations for the
remodelling of the back of our house I am a little bemused over some
things that have emerged.

Firstly, after you have planning permission the role of the planners seems
to be complete. There is no inspection to confirm that whatever you have
done conforms to the plans submitted.

Yup, unless someone complains that what you built is not what you got
permission to build, they probably have no further interest.

Building Regulations is a separate department - in fact a separate
business - and has no links to planning at all. They don't enforce
planning, just BR.

Indeed.

So the planners have no idea if the plans have been followed unless
someone (irate neighbour, usually) registers a complaint.

Correct

Secondly, BR do not (certainly in our case) do a final inspection to
confirm that all works have been completed to BR and all gas and
electrical work has been certified.

Normally they do. Often you need to book a completion / final visit with
your BCO. They will then "sign off" the finished works which will
trigger the sending of a completion certificate. Its possible though
that if they have seen what have seen what they need to see during the
build, they may not require a final visit.

How much interest they take with electrics will vary quite a bit.

We know this because our certificate of completion turned up in the post
today - without anyone coming round to check that we had done everything
by the book.

If you had regular inspections during the work, then that is more than
adequate (in fact after the fact inspections are not really good enough
because much of the stuff that BCOs are interested in will have been
covered up by then)

Now in our case we did ensure regular inspections at key stages of the
build and we did follow the plans.

However if we hadn't, then who would know?

You might have more difficulty getting your completion cert. Normally
they will tell you what stages of a build they want to see early on.

We have planning permission and BR sign off.

Makes you wonder how much all this process is worth, really.

It will also depend a bit on what work was being done. For lots of
smaller jobs there is only limited scope to do stuff wrong enough for it
to be an issue!


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 10:44:35 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

snip

It will also depend a bit on what work was being done. For lots of
smaller jobs there is only limited scope to do stuff wrong enough for it
to be an issue!

I think once they saw the steels in (sorry, STEELS) they were probably
confident we weren't going to cut too many corners. :-)

Cheers

Dave R

On Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:44:35 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/09/2013 10:08, David.WE.Roberts wrote:



Having been through full planning and Building Regulations for the

remodelling of the back of our house I am a little bemused over some

things that have emerged.



Firstly, after you have planning permission the role of the planners seems

to be complete. There is no inspection to confirm that whatever you have

done conforms to the plans submitted.



Yup, unless someone complains that what you built is not what you got

permission to build, they probably have no further interest.



Building Regulations is a separate department - in fact a separate

business - and has no links to planning at all. They don't enforce

planning, just BR.



Indeed.



So the planners have no idea if the plans have been followed unless

someone (irate neighbour, usually) registers a complaint.



Correct



Secondly, BR do not (certainly in our case) do a final inspection to

confirm that all works have been completed to BR and all gas and

electrical work has been certified.



Normally they do. Often you need to book a completion / final visit with

your BCO. They will then "sign off" the finished works which will

trigger the sending of a completion certificate. Its possible though

that if they have seen what have seen what they need to see during the

build, they may not require a final visit.



How much interest they take with electrics will vary quite a bit.



We know this because our certificate of completion turned up in the post

today - without anyone coming round to check that we had done everything

by the book.



If you had regular inspections during the work, then that is more than

adequate (in fact after the fact inspections are not really good enough

because much of the stuff that BCOs are interested in will have been

covered up by then)



Now in our case we did ensure regular inspections at key stages of the

build and we did follow the plans.



However if we hadn't, then who would know?



You might have more difficulty getting your completion cert. Normally

they will tell you what stages of a build they want to see early on.



We have planning permission and BR sign off.



Makes you wonder how much all this process is worth, really.



It will also depend a bit on what work was being done. For lots of

smaller jobs there is only limited scope to do stuff wrong enough for it

to be an issue!





--

Cheers,



John.



/================================================== ===============\

| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |

|-----------------------------------------------------------------|

| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |

\================================================= ================/

My experience with planning (on a chapel conversion) was no problems at all - almost a 'yes please!' attitude. I had however taken the trouble to read all the relevant documents and do things in the right way.

With building control, I had a dismal architect that spent 9 months not getting the plans passed. I got rid of him, did the design over myself, and with very minor revisions had the design passed.

Had a BC inspection to look at the below-ground structural concrete, and another inspection to look at the new timber-frame internal structure. Both visits about 5 minutes duration. After the second visit he said "All standard construction techniques - just call me back when it's finished".

At the final inspection whilst chatting he asked me what I did for a living, and I said a professional engineer in the electronics industry - "won't need to do an electrical inspection then". His only issues concerned protection from falling and asked for more handrails and secondary window locks.

David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Having been through full planning and Building Regulations for the
remodelling of the back of our house I am a little bemused over some
things that have emerged.

Firstly, after you have planning permission the role of the planners
seems to be complete. There is no inspection to confirm that whatever
you have done conforms to the plans submitted.

Building Regulations is a separate department - in fact a separate
business - and has no links to planning at all. They don't enforce
planning, just BR.

So the planners have no idea if the plans have been followed unless
someone (irate neighbour, usually) registers a complaint.

Secondly, BR do not (certainly in our case) do a final inspection to
confirm that all works have been completed to BR and all gas and
electrical work has been certified.

We know this because our certificate of completion turned up in the
post today - without anyone coming round to check that we had done
everything by the book.

Now in our case we did ensure regular inspections at key stages of the
build and we did follow the plans.

However if we hadn't, then who would know?

We have planning permission and BR sign off.

Makes you wonder how much all this process is worth, really.

Planning doesn't come into play unless someone makes a complaint.

Final inspection is a must - it signs it off and the cert usually stays
with the deeds of the house for future reference.

All in all, nothing would really happen until someone else tries to buy the
property, then if the final completion cert cannot be located, or the
electrical / gas certificates, it would prompt further surveys and testing
etc, usually at cost to the seller, IE you, or a fair chunk of the asking
price knocked off for the buyer to bring everything up to standard, even if
it already is, it isn't if there's no certs IYSWIM

David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Having been through full planning and Building Regulations for the
remodelling of the back of our house I am a little bemused over some
things that have emerged.

Firstly, after you have planning permission the role of the planners seems
to be complete. There is no inspection to confirm that whatever you have
done conforms to the plans submitted.

Building Regulations is a separate department - in fact a separate
business - and has no links to planning at all. They don't enforce
planning, just BR.

So the planners have no idea if the plans have been followed unless
someone (irate neighbour, usually) registers a complaint.

Secondly, BR do not (certainly in our case) do a final inspection to
confirm that all works have been completed to BR and all gas and
electrical work has been certified.

We know this because our certificate of completion turned up in the post
today - without anyone coming round to check that we had done everything
by the book.

Now in our case we did ensure regular inspections at key stages of the
build and we did follow the plans.

However if we hadn't, then who would know?

We have planning permission and BR sign off.

Makes you wonder how much all this process is worth, really.

Cheers

Dave R


Isn't part of the problem that it might prevent a future sale if a
survey or something notices something wrong?

--
AC

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 16:10:52 +0100, AC wrote:

David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Having been through full planning and Building Regulations for the
remodelling of the back of our house I am a little bemused over some
things that have emerged.

Firstly, after you have planning permission the role of the planners
seems to be complete. There is no inspection to confirm that whatever
you have done conforms to the plans submitted.

Building Regulations is a separate department - in fact a separate
business - and has no links to planning at all. They don't enforce
planning, just BR.

So the planners have no idea if the plans have been followed unless
someone (irate neighbour, usually) registers a complaint.

Secondly, BR do not (certainly in our case) do a final inspection to
confirm that all works have been completed to BR and all gas and
electrical work has been certified.

We know this because our certificate of completion turned up in the
post today - without anyone coming round to check that we had done
everything by the book.

Now in our case we did ensure regular inspections at key stages of the
build and we did follow the plans.

However if we hadn't, then who would know?

We have planning permission and BR sign off.

Makes you wonder how much all this process is worth, really.

Cheers

Dave R


Isn't part of the problem that it might prevent a future sale if a
survey or something notices something wrong?

A survey is almost certainly not going to identify that BR hasn't been
followed because almost everything has been buried in concrete or behind
plasterboard.

After a few years certificates are also not going to be asked for.

The surveyor will add caveats like "without a full electrical.." "without
a full gas..." "without a full drainage..."

Much like an MOT, a certificate states that everything is fine on the date
of the signing of the certificate.

After a few years almost anything could have been done to modify the
original work.

Cheers

Dave R

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 16:03:28 +0100, Phil L wrote:

David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Having been through full planning and Building Regulations for the
remodelling of the back of our house I am a little bemused over some
things that have emerged.

Firstly, after you have planning permission the role of the planners
seems to be complete. There is no inspection to confirm that whatever
you have done conforms to the plans submitted.

Building Regulations is a separate department - in fact a separate
business - and has no links to planning at all. They don't enforce
planning, just BR.

So the planners have no idea if the plans have been followed unless
someone (irate neighbour, usually) registers a complaint.

Secondly, BR do not (certainly in our case) do a final inspection to
confirm that all works have been completed to BR and all gas and
electrical work has been certified.

We know this because our certificate of completion turned up in the
post today - without anyone coming round to check that we had done
everything by the book.

Now in our case we did ensure regular inspections at key stages of the
build and we did follow the plans.

However if we hadn't, then who would know?

We have planning permission and BR sign off.

Makes you wonder how much all this process is worth, really.

Planning doesn't come into play unless someone makes a complaint.

Final inspection is a must - it signs it off and the cert usually stays
with the deeds of the house for future reference.

Deeds of the house?????
So last century - deeds are no longer required.
BR certificates are not usually deposited with the Land Registry.

Please note from the original post that we have a final certificate
without a final inspection.


All in all, nothing would really happen until someone else tries to buy
the property, then if the final completion cert cannot be located, or
the electrical / gas certificates, it would prompt further surveys and
testing etc, usually at cost to the seller, IE you, or a fair chunk of
the asking price knocked off for the buyer to bring everything up to
standard, even if it already is, it isn't if there's no certs IYSWIM


If you are selling 10 years after the work, then the certificates aren't
worth much because almost anything could have been done in those 10 years.

Anyone buying should have the plumbing, wiring etc. checked anyway - they
shouldn't rely on a certificate issued several years ago to outdated
regulations.

On 05/09/2013 11:03, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 10:44:35 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

snip

It will also depend a bit on what work was being done. For lots of
smaller jobs there is only limited scope to do stuff wrong enough for it
to be an issue!

I think once they saw the steels in (sorry, STEELS) they were probably
confident we weren't going to cut too many corners. :-)

Yup I get the impression there is a strong element of that as well -
once the BCO gets a feel for what the attitude of the builder is, it
goes a long way to how closely they feel they need to watch later.


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On 05/09/2013 16:03, Phil L wrote:

Final inspection is a must - it signs it off and the cert usually stays
with the deeds of the house for future reference.

All in all, nothing would really happen until someone else tries to buy the
property, then if the final completion cert cannot be located, or the
electrical / gas certificates, it would prompt further surveys and testing
etc, usually at cost to the seller, IE you, or a fair chunk of the asking
price knocked off for the buyer to bring everything up to standard, even if
it already is, it isn't if there's no certs IYSWIM

IME its not even that drastic. Lack of certificates might get a mention,
but the overall context is usually taken into account as well. Plenty of
builds get supervised by the LABC but there is no final completion cert
applied for, and its not usually a show stopper. Lack of things like
electrical or FENSA window certs are pretty much ignored it seems.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 05/09/2013 16:10, AC wrote:

Isn't part of the problem that it might prevent a future sale if a
survey or something notices something wrong?

If there is something noticeably wrong, and it transpires that work was
done without building control approval (say a loft conversion without
appropriate structural work on the floor, or adequate fire protection),
then yes, that will be a problem.

If on the other hand what is there looks like it was done right, and as
been standing for 30 years since completion, its less likely to be an
issue.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 5 Sep 2013 16:03:28 +0100 Phil L wrote :
All in all, nothing would really happen until someone else tries to buy the
property, then if the final completion cert cannot be located, or the
electrical / gas certificates, it would prompt further surveys and testing
etc, usually at cost to the seller, IE you, or a fair chunk of the asking
price knocked off for the buyer to bring everything up to standard, even if
it already is, it isn't if there's no certs IYSWIM

When I sold up in 2008 the standard form had a question about electrics and I
answered it honestly on the lines of "numerous alterations over the last few
years; no approvals obtained" and no query was raised. Given the standard of
work the purchaser would have needed to spend £££ to bring the installation
down to a normal professional standard .

For the boiler, again self-installed, I obtained a Landlord's Safety
Certificate before putting the property on the market - personally I think it
would be a worthwhile (unlike Part P) safety improvement to make this
mandatory on all home sales. As for the EPC, the inspector said it was the
first non new-build he'd looked at that got rated as C.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

On 05/09/2013 21:45, David.WE.Roberts wrote:

If you are selling 10 years after the work, then the certificates aren't
worth much because almost anything could have been done in those 10 years.

Anyone buying should have the plumbing, wiring etc. checked anyway - they
shouldn't rely on a certificate issued several years ago to outdated
regulations.

Yup, I would go along with that. When I bought our current place, it had
had a loft conversion done some 20 years previous - all under LABC
oversight, but there was no completion cert. It was a non issue for all
concerned. As to plumbing etc, I gave instructions to the surveyor to
ignore plumbing, & electrics altogether, and just report on stuff that
was non obvious.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

David.WE.Roberts wrote:

If you are selling 10 years after the work, then the certificates
aren't worth much because almost anything could have been done in
those 10 years.

Anyone buying should have the plumbing, wiring etc. checked anyway -
they shouldn't rely on a certificate issued several years ago to
outdated regulations.

Not so much gas and electricity as they are fairly cheap to put right, but a
buyer would want to know if a two storey extension on the side was built on
500mm of concrete or built on soil - this is where the BC certs come in -
they're not interested in what's been done since inside or out as it will
only be cosmetic, it's the fabric of the structure that matters

[Default] On 5 Sep 2013 09:08:20 GMT, a certain chimpanzee,
"David.WE.Roberts" , randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:

Having been through full planning and Building Regulations for the
remodelling of the back of our house I am a little bemused over some
things that have emerged.

Firstly, after you have planning permission the role of the planners seems
to be complete. There is no inspection to confirm that whatever you have
done conforms to the plans submitted.

IMHO, Planning is all about the Permission. The plans they approve are
what you have permission for; if you don't build it as per the plans,
you ain't got permission. W/ BC, OTOH, the plans are a means to an
end; getting it to comply on site is the important bit.

Building Regulations is a separate department - in fact a separate
business - and has no links to planning at all. They don't enforce
planning, just BR.

Not a separate 'business', but a separate department (except where it
isn't). Except that they have their legislation to deal with, and we
have ours.

I know of some BC sections that do do some planning enforcement, but
it's usually...

So the planners have no idea if the plans have been followed unless
someone (irate neighbour, usually) registers a complaint.

Correct.

Occasionally Building Control talk to planners (and vice versa).
Sometimes when there's a complaint, planners will compare their plans
w/ BC, or ask the BCO if it is (was) built as per the permission.

Secondly, BR do not (certainly in our case) do a final inspection to
confirm that all works have been completed to BR and all gas and
electrical work has been certified.

We know this because our certificate of completion turned up in the post
today - without anyone coming round to check that we had done everything
by the book.

Normally they do a completion inspection. I know of one authority
locally to me that's short of staff that doesn't, but it's usually the
norm.

Sometimes if the work was virtually complete on the previous
inspection (a bit of flashing or an extract fan to go in, etc.), or
there's nothing that could be seen on a completion inspection (e.g., a
knock-through), then I'll issue a completion cert when the owner tells
me it's complete.

Gas isn't covered by the Building Regs (yet), and electrics are
hopefully installed by a Part P electrician so BC can wash their hands
of it, so these aren't 'inspections' as such.

Now in our case we did ensure regular inspections at key stages of the
build and we did follow the plans.

However if we hadn't, then who would know?

We have planning permission and BR sign off.

Makes you wonder how much all this process is worth, really.

I couldn't possibly comment.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

On Thursday, September 5, 2013 10:08:20 AM UTC+1, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
Having been through full planning and Building Regulations for the
remodelling of the back of our house I am a little bemused over some
things that have emerged.

Planning is a much abused area.

As said, it comes down to if someone complains - and then you CAN be in a right mess. Classic is ridge height or size, and the big ticket developers DO drive a coach and horses through since most neighbours do not notice or care much. Some however in actually very nice areas will bite, first you know is surveyors turning up to check against your plans.

BR generally focus on Fire, Fire, Foundations, Foundations, Fire (did I mention it?), Lintels etc. Basically they eyeball whether the build is dumb-ass or following good form - eg, insulation clips wrong so the insulation is not tight against the inner leaf or incorrect air gap from insulation to the outer leaf. Prescott got us a bit sidetracked off his flat world.

The downside is, of course, just because BR ticked the box does NOT mean the foundations are correct and so on. Frankly this should have had insurance backing at some point as a national scheme - put fees up £50 say.