Dear All,

I recently had a new bathroom suite installed in my house (actually, a recently acquired house for rental). For information, the area has soft water and the heating system is a straightforward old fashioned gravity fed system with hot water cylinder.

Prior to the new installation, the water pressure for the old thermostatic shower valve seemed adequate to provide a decently powerful spray and so I dismissed the notion of fitting a pump to power the thing. However, the new shower valve (Victoria Plumb's "Minimalist" model, see http://www.victoriaplumb.com/Showers...utlet_894.html) seems to provide a very feeble flow. It's barely able to generate a spray from the (also new) handset, being more of a lively dribble.

Being rather busy before the work was done, I didn't get round to noting the arrangement of the plumbing to the bathroom and so I cannot be sure whether any major changes have occurred from the previous set up (which worked to a satisfactory degree).

The plumbing now is as follows:

22mm hot outlet from cylinder feeding the bath hot tap and branching to 2x 15mm for basin hot and shower hot (ball valve fitted on each 15mm branch).

22mm cold feed from loft cold water, with same arrangement as above, but to cold outlets.

The bath taps run freely; a really good, strong flow. The basin cold tap runs freely, too. The basin hot is a weak flow and the shower is weak on hot or cold independently, or a mixture of both.

To add a variable into the mix, I looked at the loft cold water tank and the cover (wooden board) is a mess (fragmented/rotten) and there are polystyrene beads all over the place (insulation remnants, I presume). In the same loft space, there is also a huge wasps' nest that I think is disused (no buzzing/critters). If someone had the nest treated at some point in the past, I guess that a number of bugs could have fallen into the tank.

So, what I'm wondering is what is the best place to start in looking to fix the problem? It seems to me that it might be:

i) Plumbing layout is now different than before, restricting the flow
ii) New shower valve/hose/handset is restrictive compared to the old one
iii) Partial blockage caused by debris having entered the loft water tank

The weak flow from the basin hot tap, but not cold, suggests to me that the plumbing is not the main problem. The water that supplies the basin cold tap runs from the same loft tank and through the same 15mm plumbing arrangement as the basin hot tap (admittedly, without the intervening hot water cylinder).
My first thought, then, is to detach the shower valve and see how fast the water flows from the pipe stubs. At the same time, I can also examine the valve to see whether any crap has found its way in there. Once this angle has been investigated, I would intend to head up to the loft to clean up the tank and fit a proper lid.

Does this sound like the correct and logical way to proceed?

Thanks in advance,

Jim.

Jim Walsh wrote:
Dear All,

I recently had a new bathroom suite installed in my house (actually, a
recently acquired house for rental). For information, the area has soft
water and the heating system is a straightforward old fashioned gravity
fed system with hot water cylinder.

Prior to the new installation, the water pressure for the old
thermostatic shower valve seemed adequate to provide a decently powerful
spray and so I dismissed the notion of fitting a pump to power the thing.
However, the new shower valve (Victoria Plumb's "Minimalist" model, see
http://www.victoriaplumb.com/Showers...utlet_894.html)
seems to provide a very feeble flow. It's barely able to generate a spray
from the (also new) handset, being more of a lively dribble.

Being rather busy before the work was done, I didn't get round to noting
the arrangement of the plumbing to the bathroom and so I cannot be sure
whether any major changes have occurred from the previous set up (which
worked to a satisfactory degree).

The plumbing now is as follows:

22mm hot outlet from cylinder feeding the bath hot tap and branching to
2x 15mm for basin hot and shower hot (ball valve fitted on each 15mm branch).

22mm cold feed from loft cold water, with same arrangement as above, but to cold outlets.

The bath taps run freely; a really good, strong flow. The basin cold tap
runs freely, too. The basin hot is a weak flow and the shower is weak on
hot or cold independently, or a mixture of both.

To add a variable into the mix, I looked at the loft cold water tank and
the cover (wooden board) is a mess (fragmented/rotten) and there are
polystyrene beads all over the place (insulation remnants, I presume). In
the same loft space, there is also a huge wasps' nest that I think is
disused (no buzzing/critters). If someone had the nest treated at some
point in the past, I guess that a number of bugs could have fallen into the tank.

So, what I'm wondering is what is the best place to start in looking to
fix the problem? It seems to me that it might be:

i) Plumbing layout is now different than before, restricting the flow
ii) New shower valve/hose/handset is restrictive compared to the old one
iii) Partial blockage caused by debris having entered the loft water tank

The weak flow from the basin hot tap, but not cold, suggests to me that
the plumbing is not the main problem. The water that supplies the basin
cold tap runs from the same loft tank and through the same 15mm plumbing
arrangement as the basin hot tap (admittedly, without the intervening hot water cylinder).
My first thought, then, is to detach the shower valve and see how fast
the water flows from the pipe stubs. At the same time, I can also examine
the valve to see whether any crap has found its way in there. Once this
angle has been investigated, I would intend to head up to the loft to
clean up the tank and fit a proper lid.

Does this sound like the correct and logical way to proceed?

Thanks in advance,


What kind of ball valves have you got? Are they full bore (generally have
a big lever to actuate) or are they more like these isolating valves?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-15mm-I...-/370815694304

If it's the latter then they will grossly restrict flow, particularly in a
gravity system. There *could* be crud in the pipes but my money will be on
it being the fact that the new shower valve is designed to work with mains
pressure water. Gravity fed mixer valves are harder to come by.

Tim

On 12/08/2013 13:55, Tim+ wrote:
Jim Walsh wrote:
There *could* be crud in the pipes but my money will be on
it being the fact that the new shower valve is designed to work with mains
pressure water. Gravity fed mixer valves are harder to come by.

Tim


That would be my guess. The spec says 0.1 bar minimum, which is about 1
metre head. Most taps/mixers these days are designed for high pressure
systems, not gravity.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"Jim Walsh" wrote in message
...
Dear All,

I recently had a new bathroom suite installed in my house (actually, a
recently acquired house for rental). For information, the area has soft
water and the heating system is a straightforward old fashioned gravity fed
system with hot water cylinder.

Prior to the new installation, the water pressure for the old thermostatic
shower valve seemed adequate to provide a decently powerful spray and so I
dismissed the notion of fitting a pump to power the thing. However, the new
shower valve (Victoria Plumb's "Minimalist" model, see
http://www.victoriaplumb.com/Showers...utlet_894.html)
seems to provide a very feeble flow. It's barely able to generate a spray
from the (also new) handset, being more of a lively dribble.

Being rather busy before the work was done, I didn't get round to noting the
arrangement of the plumbing to the bathroom and so I cannot be sure whether
any major changes have occurred from the previous set up (which worked to a
satisfactory degree).

The plumbing now is as follows:

22mm hot outlet from cylinder feeding the bath hot tap and branching to 2x
15mm for basin hot and shower hot (ball valve fitted on each 15mm branch).

22mm cold feed from loft cold water, with same arrangement as above, but to
cold outlets.

The bath taps run freely; a really good, strong flow. The basin cold tap
runs freely, too. The basin hot is a weak flow and the shower is weak on hot
or cold independently, or a mixture of both.

To add a variable into the mix, I looked at the loft cold water tank and the
cover (wooden board) is a mess (fragmented/rotten) and there are polystyrene
beads all over the place (insulation remnants, I presume). In the same loft
space, there is also a huge wasps' nest that I think is disused (no
buzzing/critters). If someone had the nest treated at some point in the
past, I guess that a number of bugs could have fallen into the tank.

So, what I'm wondering is what is the best place to start in looking to fix
the problem? It seems to me that it might be:

i) Plumbing layout is now different than before, restricting the flow
ii) New shower valve/hose/handset is restrictive compared to the old one
iii) Partial blockage caused by debris having entered the loft water tank

The weak flow from the basin hot tap, but not cold, suggests to me that the
plumbing is not the main problem. The water that supplies the basin cold tap
runs from the same loft tank and through the same 15mm plumbing arrangement
as the basin hot tap (admittedly, without the intervening hot water
cylinder).
My first thought, then, is to detach the shower valve and see how fast the
water flows from the pipe stubs. At the same time, I can also examine the
valve to see whether any crap has found its way in there. Once this angle
has been investigated, I would intend to head up to the loft to clean up the
tank and fit a proper lid.

Does this sound like the correct and logical way to proceed?

Thanks in advance,

You probably have a high pressure hand set.
Nowadays most are.
So your cheapest/lowest maintenence option is to get a low pressure one.

You might also find you have high pressure taps and shower mixer valve.
Some claim to be suitable for both high & low pressure.

Or if you have those 1/4 turn isolating valves, many are not full bore (ie
the hole through them is very small).
They don't work well on low pressure systems (restrict the flow)
You can get full bore ones.

"harryagain" wrote in message
...


Or if you have those 1/4 turn isolating valves, many are not full bore (ie
the hole through them is very small).
They don't work well on low pressure systems (restrict the flow)
You can get full bore ones.

I have a similar problem to the OP.
Old system was gravity 22mm from cold water tank & 22mm from (Warwick
flange) HW cyl. No valves fitted. Used to fill a medium sized bath in
5-10mins. About 4m head.
Recently installed bath/shower is pumped. Again 22mm throughout. Lever ball
valves fitted to H&C supplies. Warwick flange still fitted.
Ball valves 'look' like this:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/full-bore-...lve-22mm/30584
but I don't know if they are full bore.
To fill a bath now takes 20-25 mins and shower performance isn't great.

Is it possible to tell the difference between full bore & restricted valves
externally? Or should I drain down as required and dismantle? Valves, as
ever, are in a hard to get-at place.
Thanks,
Nick.

"Nick" wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message
...


Or if you have those 1/4 turn isolating valves, many are not full bore (ie
the hole through them is very small).
They don't work well on low pressure systems (restrict the flow)
You can get full bore ones.

I have a similar problem to the OP.
Old system was gravity 22mm from cold water tank & 22mm from (Warwick
flange) HW cyl. No valves fitted. Used to fill a medium sized bath in
5-10mins. About 4m head.
Recently installed bath/shower is pumped. Again 22mm throughout. Lever ball
valves fitted to H&C supplies. Warwick flange still fitted.
Ball valves 'look' like this:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/full-bore-...lve-22mm/30584
but I don't know if they are full bore.
To fill a bath now takes 20-25 mins and shower performance isn't great.

Is it possible to tell the difference between full bore & restricted valves
externally? Or should I drain down as required and dismantle? Valves, as
ever, are in a hard to get-at place.
Thanks,
Nick.

Pumped? Through 22mm? Even a cheap pump should provide very adequate flow
through metres of 15m plastic pipe, at least ours did. Got to be something
else wrong.

I would guess it's down to the taps being overly restrictive.

Tim

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Jim Walsh wrote:
Dear All,

I recently had a new bathroom suite installed in my house (actually, a
recently acquired house for rental). For information, the area has soft
water and the heating system is a straightforward old fashioned gravity
fed system with hot water cylinder.

Prior to the new installation, the water pressure for the old
thermostatic shower valve seemed adequate to provide a decently powerful
spray and so I dismissed the notion of fitting a pump to power the thing.
However, the new shower valve (Victoria Plumb's "Minimalist" model, see
http://www.victoriaplumb.com/Showers...utlet_894.html)
seems to provide a very feeble flow. It's barely able to generate a spray
from the (also new) handset, being more of a lively dribble.

Being rather busy before the work was done, I didn't get round to noting
the arrangement of the plumbing to the bathroom and so I cannot be sure
whether any major changes have occurred from the previous set up (which
worked to a satisfactory degree).

The plumbing now is as follows:

22mm hot outlet from cylinder feeding the bath hot tap and branching to
2x 15mm for basin hot and shower hot (ball valve fitted on each 15mm
branch).

22mm cold feed from loft cold water, with same arrangement as above, but
to cold outlets.

The bath taps run freely; a really good, strong flow. The basin cold tap
runs freely, too. The basin hot is a weak flow and the shower is weak on
hot or cold independently, or a mixture of both.

To add a variable into the mix, I looked at the loft cold water tank and
the cover (wooden board) is a mess (fragmented/rotten) and there are
polystyrene beads all over the place (insulation remnants, I presume). In
the same loft space, there is also a huge wasps' nest that I think is
disused (no buzzing/critters). If someone had the nest treated at some
point in the past, I guess that a number of bugs could have fallen into
the tank.

So, what I'm wondering is what is the best place to start in looking to
fix the problem? It seems to me that it might be:

i) Plumbing layout is now different than before, restricting the flow
ii) New shower valve/hose/handset is restrictive compared to the old one
iii) Partial blockage caused by debris having entered the loft water tank

The weak flow from the basin hot tap, but not cold, suggests to me that
the plumbing is not the main problem. The water that supplies the basin
cold tap runs from the same loft tank and through the same 15mm plumbing
arrangement as the basin hot tap (admittedly, without the intervening hot
water cylinder).
My first thought, then, is to detach the shower valve and see how fast
the water flows from the pipe stubs. At the same time, I can also examine
the valve to see whether any crap has found its way in there. Once this
angle has been investigated, I would intend to head up to the loft to
clean up the tank and fit a proper lid.

Does this sound like the correct and logical way to proceed?

Thanks in advance,


What kind of ball valves have you got? Are they full bore (generally have
a big lever to actuate) or are they more like these isolating valves?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-15mm-I...-/370815694304

If it's the latter then they will grossly restrict flow, particularly in a
gravity system. There *could* be crud in the pipes but my money will be
on
it being the fact that the new shower valve is designed to work with mains
pressure water. Gravity fed mixer valves are harder to come by.

Tim

I would go with it being the ball valves every time. I've used a lot of them
all over my house where it doesn't matter about them restricting the flow
rate, but for my shower, I used the full bore ones with a handle.

Arfa

On 12/08/2013 13:34, Jim Walsh wrote:
So, what I'm wondering is what is the best place to start in looking to fix the problem?

Am I the only one thinking "airlock"?

Might be worth backfeeding mains cold water into the hot taps/shower to
see if you can dislodge any bubbles.

Andy

"Nick" wrote in message
...

"harryagain" wrote in message
...


Or if you have those 1/4 turn isolating valves, many are not full bore
(ie the hole through them is very small).
They don't work well on low pressure systems (restrict the flow)
You can get full bore ones.

I have a similar problem to the OP.
Old system was gravity 22mm from cold water tank & 22mm from (Warwick
flange) HW cyl. No valves fitted. Used to fill a medium sized bath in
5-10mins. About 4m head.
Recently installed bath/shower is pumped. Again 22mm throughout. Lever
ball valves fitted to H&C supplies. Warwick flange still fitted.
Ball valves 'look' like this:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/full-bore-...lve-22mm/30584
but I don't know if they are full bore.
To fill a bath now takes 20-25 mins and shower performance isn't great.

Is it possible to tell the difference between full bore & restricted
valves externally? Or should I drain down as required and dismantle?
Valves, as ever, are in a hard to get-at place.
Thanks,
Nick.

If the valve body is more or less the same size as the pipework, the hole
through it is much smaller so causing a restriction. (BTW if the bore is
not speciifed, it will be small). Often only 25% of the pipe size CSA.
These are OK for mains pressure unless exceptionally low.

The full bore valve have a body signifacntly bigger than the pipework, cost
more, and are specified as full bore.
Use on low pressure sytems and heating sytems.
And baths where you want them to fill as quick as possible. (Remembering
that it only takes one valve in the line somewhere to f**k things up.)

All these 1/4 turn valved BTW are just cheap ****e. Avoid wherever possible.
Mostly you don't need them, what are stoptaps for?

On 13/08/2013 07:39, harryagain wrote:
"Nick" wrote in message
...

"harryagain" wrote in message
...


Or if you have those 1/4 turn isolating valves, many are not full bore
(ie the hole through them is very small).
They don't work well on low pressure systems (restrict the flow)
You can get full bore ones.

I have a similar problem to the OP.
Old system was gravity 22mm from cold water tank & 22mm from (Warwick
flange) HW cyl. No valves fitted. Used to fill a medium sized bath in
5-10mins. About 4m head.
Recently installed bath/shower is pumped. Again 22mm throughout. Lever
ball valves fitted to H&C supplies. Warwick flange still fitted.
Ball valves 'look' like this:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/full-bore-...lve-22mm/30584
but I don't know if they are full bore.
To fill a bath now takes 20-25 mins and shower performance isn't great.

Is it possible to tell the difference between full bore & restricted
valves externally? Or should I drain down as required and dismantle?
Valves, as ever, are in a hard to get-at place.
Thanks,
Nick.

If the valve body is more or less the same size as the pipework, the hole
through it is much smaller so causing a restriction. (BTW if the bore is
not speciifed, it will be small). Often only 25% of the pipe size CSA.

Indeed. Going from 10mm to 13mm almost doubles the area.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article , The Medway Handyman
wrote:
On 13/08/2013 07:39, harryagain wrote:
"Nick" wrote in message
...

"harryagain" wrote in message
...


Or if you have those 1/4 turn isolating valves, many are not full
bore (ie the hole through them is very small). They don't work well
on low pressure systems (restrict the flow) You can get full bore
ones.

I have a similar problem to the OP. Old system was gravity 22mm from
cold water tank & 22mm from (Warwick flange) HW cyl. No valves fitted.
Used to fill a medium sized bath in 5-10mins. About 4m head. Recently
installed bath/shower is pumped. Again 22mm throughout. Lever ball
valves fitted to H&C supplies. Warwick flange still fitted. Ball
valves 'look' like this:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/full-bore-...lve-22mm/30584 but I
don't know if they are full bore. To fill a bath now takes 20-25 mins
and shower performance isn't great.

Is it possible to tell the difference between full bore & restricted
valves externally? Or should I drain down as required and dismantle?
Valves, as ever, are in a hard to get-at place. Thanks, Nick.

If the valve body is more or less the same size as the pipework, the
hole through it is much smaller so causing a restriction. (BTW if the
bore is not speciifed, it will be small). Often only 25% of the pipe
size CSA.

Indeed. Going from 10mm to 13mm almost doubles the area.

well, by 69%, anyway.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Monday, August 12, 2013 6:38:20 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
"Jim Walsh" wrote in message

...

Dear All,



I recently had a new bathroom suite installed in my house (actually, a

recently acquired house for rental). For information, the area has soft

water and the heating system is a straightforward old fashioned gravity fed

system with hot water cylinder.



Prior to the new installation, the water pressure for the old thermostatic

shower valve seemed adequate to provide a decently powerful spray and so I

dismissed the notion of fitting a pump to power the thing. However, the new

shower valve (Victoria Plumb's "Minimalist" model, see

http://www.victoriaplumb.com/Showers...utlet_894.html)

seems to provide a very feeble flow. It's barely able to generate a spray

from the (also new) handset, being more of a lively dribble.



Being rather busy before the work was done, I didn't get round to noting the

arrangement of the plumbing to the bathroom and so I cannot be sure whether

any major changes have occurred from the previous set up (which worked to a

satisfactory degree).



The plumbing now is as follows:



22mm hot outlet from cylinder feeding the bath hot tap and branching to 2x

15mm for basin hot and shower hot (ball valve fitted on each 15mm branch)..



22mm cold feed from loft cold water, with same arrangement as above, but to

cold outlets.



The bath taps run freely; a really good, strong flow. The basin cold tap

runs freely, too. The basin hot is a weak flow and the shower is weak on hot

or cold independently, or a mixture of both.



To add a variable into the mix, I looked at the loft cold water tank and the

cover (wooden board) is a mess (fragmented/rotten) and there are polystyrene

beads all over the place (insulation remnants, I presume). In the same loft

space, there is also a huge wasps' nest that I think is disused (no

buzzing/critters). If someone had the nest treated at some point in the

past, I guess that a number of bugs could have fallen into the tank.



So, what I'm wondering is what is the best place to start in looking to fix

the problem? It seems to me that it might be:



i) Plumbing layout is now different than before, restricting the flow

ii) New shower valve/hose/handset is restrictive compared to the old one

iii) Partial blockage caused by debris having entered the loft water tank



The weak flow from the basin hot tap, but not cold, suggests to me that the

plumbing is not the main problem. The water that supplies the basin cold tap

runs from the same loft tank and through the same 15mm plumbing arrangement

as the basin hot tap (admittedly, without the intervening hot water

cylinder).

My first thought, then, is to detach the shower valve and see how fast the

water flows from the pipe stubs. At the same time, I can also examine the

valve to see whether any crap has found its way in there. Once this angle

has been investigated, I would intend to head up to the loft to clean up the

tank and fit a proper lid.



Does this sound like the correct and logical way to proceed?



Thanks in advance,



You probably have a high pressure hand set.

Nowadays most are.

So your cheapest/lowest maintenence option is to get a low pressure one.



You might also find you have high pressure taps and shower mixer valve.

Some claim to be suitable for both high & low pressure.



Or if you have those 1/4 turn isolating valves, many are not full bore (ie

the hole through them is very small).

They don't work well on low pressure systems (restrict the flow)

You can get full bore ones.

Thanks to all for the suggestions.

It does seem that added systemic restrictions to flow are the problem, rather than a blockage.

The shower head and hose were one aspect. In haste, I had bought an on-sale item from Victoria Plumb that would, no doubt, have been fine for mains pressure or pumped. However, the 8mm bore of the hose and the high-pressure head markedly reduced the flow on my gravity system. Just replacing these for a 15mm bore hose and low pressure head made the shower almost acceptable.
The el-cheapo ball valves were the remainder of the problem. Replacement with full-bore versions has seen the shower flow restored to its former glory..

Regards,

Jim.

On Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:26:15 AM UTC+12, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/08/2013 13:34, Jim Walsh wrote:

So, what I'm wondering is what is the best place to start in looking to fix the problem?



Am I the only one thinking "airlock"?



Might be worth backfeeding mains cold water into the hot taps/shower to

see if you can dislodge any bubbles.

Don't do what I did to clear an airlock.
I attached a large empty container to the tap and attached a vacuum cleaner to the container. I now recommend having two containers in series. I managed to dry out the vacuum cleaner! The airlock did get removed.